An Ele Venting On Perma-StealthThieves
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Thief isn’t shock and awe. Thief is a precision strike. (Pun may or may not be intended).
I think you answered your own questions when you said “boatload of snares”. Depending on his stunbreaker(s) + cooldown(s), that will typically do it.
Damage Dolly
we all began as something else
we all began as something else
Thief isn’t shock and awe. Thief is a precision strike. (Pun may or may not be intended).
I think you answered your own questions when you said “boatload of snares”. Depending on his stunbreaker(s) + cooldown(s), that will typically do it.
You know what you dont see in those 1vX thief leet vids that happens 95% of the time to us? The massive amount of CC’s we get
Shawtell, Zen Verani, Rayshia Howen, Iyado, Colace Nzoir, Arteel Fyrien [Teef]
Thief isn’t shock and awe. Thief is a precision strike. (Pun may or may not be intended).
I think you answered your own questions when you said “boatload of snares”. Depending on his stunbreaker(s) + cooldown(s), that will typically do it.
Not really, he still has the initiative if he keeps on stealth. I can cast a boatload of snares all over the place but risk wasting them on empty space. It would be useful if there are any indicators on the thief’s position besides a thief revealing himself.
Like Xmtrcv said above me, you basically answered your own question. Snare a Thief and they’re dead regardless of what build they’re running.
Also, just to clear something up, a Thief using D/P for a pseudopermenant stealth isn’t able to burst people down in seconds, ttheir damage isn’t that great. Secondly, they gain stealth by using Heartseeker through Black Powder. If you stand in it then they can’t use it to gain more than a single 3 second stealth.
thiefhitfor2kbetternerf
all is vain
all is vain
If you are a DD ele then you automatically have the advantage with your boat load of AOE’s. You dont even need to target the thief directly just go through your rotation.
Shawtell, Zen Verani, Rayshia Howen, Iyado, Colace Nzoir, Arteel Fyrien [Teef]
Keep his kitten crippled/immobilized and laugh.
Like Xmtrcv said above me, you basically answered your own question. Snare a Thief and they’re dead regardless of what build they’re running.
Also, just to clear something up, a Thief using D/P for a pseudopermenant stealth isn’t able to burst people down in seconds, ttheir damage isn’t that great. Secondly, they gain stealth by using Heartseeker through Black Powder. If you stand in it then they can’t use it to gain more than a single 3 second stealth.
The thief I engaged just kept dropping black powder on the floor (red circles with smoke?) and still maintained perma-stealth without engaging anything else. He still managed to burst down a ranger in a good 5 seconds.
Also, first thing I do when I see a thief is to throw snares at him. The issue is if he stealths I don’t know where I can throw my snares. If there is a way to at least gauge where his position is, it will even the odds.
If there is a way to at least gauge where his position is, it will even the odds.
Theres an easy way to tell where he’s going, 99% of the time. If he’s attacking people, he’s moving to position himself behind whoever he is attacking in the faster way possible. If he’s running away and far away from you, he’s running straight in the direction you last saw him running. If he’s running away from you and is sort of close, he probably did a 180 and is running the exact opposite direction you last saw him.
Like Xmtrcv said above me, you basically answered your own question. Snare a Thief and they’re dead regardless of what build they’re running.
Also, just to clear something up, a Thief using D/P for a pseudopermenant stealth isn’t able to burst people down in seconds, ttheir damage isn’t that great. Secondly, they gain stealth by using Heartseeker through Black Powder. If you stand in it then they can’t use it to gain more than a single 3 second stealth.
The thief I engaged just kept dropping black powder on the floor (red circles with smoke?) and still maintained perma-stealth without engaging anything else. He still managed to burst down a ranger in a good 5 seconds.
Also, first thing I do when I see a thief is to throw snares at him. The issue is if he stealths I don’t know where I can throw my snares. If there is a way to at least gauge where his position is, it will even the odds.
Try playing a thief for a bit in pvp…once you do, their movements become predictable, and then once again skill level of the thief will determine whether you catch them or not.
You mentioned indicators that the thief is there…the red dot from black smoke in a perma stealth build, the little house above shadow-refuge, the little puff of smoke from blinding powder. All of that stuff gives away a thief’s location, the combo for perma stealth is:
drop black powder on your location
heartseeker out-turn around
heartseeker back in
heartseeker out.
If you can aoe on the black circle when it goes up, there’s a good chance you catch the thief. If the thief reacts quickly and avoids the aoe, well that means they didn’t pull off their stealth combo and just wasted a lot of initiative. The stealth will start to run out if this happens once or twice.
If you snared the thief before they went into stealth, keep aoeing the spot they were standing. They may have condition cleanse on stealth, and they may have heal while in stealth, but they can’t have all of that and solid perma-stealth.
I play a thief – though not a perma-stealth build. But I also play mesmer, today I dueled a d/p stealth focused thief in wvw (as mesmer) and won by just anticipating attacks. When he was stealthed for a bit, I’d throw up a block or dodge, all -the while doing aoe damage. I only occasionally saw the thief when he went out of stealth, just long enough to get up a few clones to keep up the pressure and keep the thief on his toes.
As thief I’ve dueled my guildmates who play d/d eles, and I have not been able to beat them. They are much better players than me, but that consistent pbaoe spam is just tough for a squishy thief to get through. So then the other option is to go ranged – which just does not work vs an ele, with those great gap closers. I realize in wvw, you can’t always anticipate a sneak attack, but hey we all have to deal with it, we need quick reaction time, and a good sense of awareness. Frankly without those, you can suffer the same insta-gib burst from a sneaky elementalist or warrior.
(edited by bobross.5034)
Like Xmtrcv said above me, you basically answered your own question. Snare a Thief and they’re dead regardless of what build they’re running.
Also, just to clear something up, a Thief using D/P for a pseudopermenant stealth isn’t able to burst people down in seconds, ttheir damage isn’t that great. Secondly, they gain stealth by using Heartseeker through Black Powder. If you stand in it then they can’t use it to gain more than a single 3 second stealth.
The thief I engaged just kept dropping black powder on the floor (red circles with smoke?) and still maintained perma-stealth without engaging anything else. He still managed to burst down a ranger in a good 5 seconds.
Also, first thing I do when I see a thief is to throw snares at him. The issue is if he stealths I don’t know where I can throw my snares. If there is a way to at least gauge where his position is, it will even the odds.
Try playing a thief for a bit in pvp…once you do, their movements become predictable, and then once again skill level of the thief will determine whether you catch them or not.
You mentioned indicators that the thief is there…the red dot from black smoke in a perma stealth build, the little house above shadow-refuge, the little puff of smoke from blinding powder. All of that stuff gives away a thief’s location, the combo for perma stealth is:
drop black powder on your location
heartseeker out-turn around
heartseeker back in
heartseeker out.If you can aoe on the black circle when it goes up, there’s a good chance you catch the thief. If the thief reacts quickly and avoids the aoe, well that means they didn’t pull off their stealth combo and just wasted a lot of initiative. The stealth will start to run out if this happens once or twice.
If you snared the thief before they went into stealth, keep aoeing the spot they were standing. They may have condition cleanse on stealth, and they may have heal while in stealth, but they can’t have all of that and solid perma-stealth.
I play a thief – though not a perma-stealth build. But I also play mesmer, today I dueled a d/p stealth focused thief in wvw (as mesmer) and won by just anticipating attacks. When he was stealthed for a bit, I’d throw up a block or dodge, all -the while doing aoe damage. I only occasionally saw the thief when he went out of stealth, just long enough to get up a few clones to keep up the pressure and keep the thief on his toes.
As thief I’ve dueled my guildmates who play d/d eles, and I have not been able to beat them. They are much better players than me, but that consistent pbaoe spam is just tough for a squishy thief to get through. So then the other option is to go ranged – which just does not work vs an ele, with those great gap closers. I realize in wvw, you can’t always anticipate a sneak attack, but hey we all have to deal with it, we need quick reaction time, and a good sense of awareness. Frankly without those, you can suffer the same insta-gib burst from a sneaky elementalist or warrior.
+1 For that.
That is a very helpful explanation. I’ll give that a shot.
There hasn’t been a single MMO to date where the stealthy burst archetype was balanced. It just isn’t possible.
There hasn’t been a single MMO to date where the stealthy burst archetype was balanced. It just isn’t possible.
You’re right, Thief is currently underpowered and needs some damage buffs to bring it back up on par with the other classes.
thiefhitfor2kbetternerf
all is vain
all is vain
I highly recommend you level a thief to 80 to learn the mechanics on which it plays on. After doing that I’ve yet to see more than 2-3 people who still complained about thieves once they’ve learned the class inside out. This also goes for other classes. I leveled a guardian originally for this, and I find myself playing guardian much more than my thief (although my thief wins roaming, hands down) and I’m in the process of leveling a d/d ele for this purpose.
As for your question itself, we need to know
What setup he was using (was it dagger/pistol? dagger/dagger?) as well as the build you are using (full zerker? Tanky? Staff? D/D?)
Some tips to get you started
Stand in the blind fields if he runs Dagger/Pistol. The blind fields are the smokey red circles he places. He gets his perma stealth through the use of a combo in which he heartseekers (leap) through a smoke field which grants stealth. He can leap through this smoke field ~3 times giving him a total of 9s stealth. You can limit his stealth by simply standing in the smoke field, because he will not be able to heartseeker(leap) through it to complete the combo, otherwise he will hit you with a heartseeker and get revealed. However I would only attempt this at the start of the fight where you have enough HP to survive a backstab.
Keep in mind that only works IF you are decently tanky. All classes and builds should be decently tanky to survive all insta gank builds. If you are running full zerker, especially on an elementalist, I highly suggest you switch to a tankier build.
For the last time, stop telling people to stand in the Black Powder.
Not only do you blind yourself, I will just Backstab you.
. After doing that I’ve yet to see more than 2-3 people who still complained about thieves once they’ve learned the class inside out.
Guess I’m one of these people. Got one to 80 and WvWed a lot, and still think they are OP. But whatever, my Thief is lv 80 so it doesn’t matter.
Remember we are talking about a elementalist here asking these questions.
I have a elementalist also I have no problem with any kind of thief tbh I run D/D the standard setup. I have a thief also and was on these forums alot as I was learning him which was before my ele got to level 80.
Every single one of your attacks is 300 range + you dont have to stand in the black powder burn the crap out of it with drakes breath, burning speed and ring of fire it, fire grab it.
I am not saying blow all of these but stagger your CC’s. Ring of earth near the blackpowder dont stand in it. If you happen to get blind dodge roll every dodge roll will remove the blind if you have evasive arcana.
Save your Aura’s incase he opens up on you from stealth. Always give yourself about 1-2 seconds then start flailing lightning whip. If you have your cantrips up your good to go. If not then your auras can be activated while stunned same as swithing attunements.
Frost aura will chill him hurting his mobility and you get -10% damage taken. Lightning aura will shock him so you can updraft right after and do the optimal combo minus RTL. Also earth 3 magnetic grasp is 900 range if you happen to see him pop out throw it even if he goes in stealth before you see it hit unless he dodged he probably got hit and is still there since it is kind of like a channel.
This is all 1v1 situations. If you have other people around there isn’t much you can do to help them as they will be standing around eating everything etc so I don’t know how you can help other people. If you are with people that know how thieves work they will blow that thief up if he gets careless/to aggressive.
If you don’t have a thief or don’t want to make one find some people you see in WvW that are thieves and roam with them ask them questions how stuff works and the typical setups they do etc when they run d/p. As a ele you can roam with thieves you can’t troll like a thief can but you can roam with them provided they help out when you draw focus fire.
When in a group of people and there is one lone thief running around trying to pick people off usually D/D eles are usually not the first target to go after since it assumed its a hard target.
This is by no means 100% accurate but just for me. The targets usually go
1) Uplevel -causes panic in the group when they see someone blown up
2) Another thief – because they can usually take the thief down just as quickly
3) Ranger – because they are annoying and the worst thing is to get entangled when your trying to pick people off and the pets can be annoying. You can also focus on rangers because you can CnD the pets if you are in a jam.
4) Warrior – Scary damage but can be avoided usually or mitigated by blinds. If its killshot warrior, then he ties with thief for priorty.
5) Mesmers – same as above and I usually assume they are squishy and by at the least making them produce clones I have CnD. If there is a pistol mesmer then its abort mission.
5) Engi/Necro/Ele depends they have good amounts of CC and Good AOE so they are usually one of the last classes I go after.
6) Guardian – Assumed to be tanky
[Good Fights]Sinndicate{Ele}Sinactic{Engineer}
Sinnastor{Warrior}Sinnacle{Mesmer}Sintacs
{Thief}
Sinnastor{Warrior}Sinnacle{Mesmer}Sintacs
{Thief}
(edited by oZii.2864)
Hi Thieves,
I recently started getting more active in WvW an yesterday I met a perma-stealth thief and I experienced firsthand why people hate it so much.
I am not in any glass cannon zerker setup but this guy burst me down in 5 seconds. Later on while we were sieging a tower I was throwing all known AoEs on the floor and still he was around trying to pick off stragglers. When we took the tower he went inside and despite everyone actively looking for him, he still managed to take out another guy. Granted, he did melt like butter on the surface of the sun once he executed that last guy and I threw a boatload of snares on him.
The point is, people hate this happening to them. For most people it makes them feel helpless when a thief can deliver a whole tonne of damage within seconds and they can’t counter it effectively. Sort of the shock and awe tactics that the US military loves so much.
I am tempted to say this setup is overpowered so I would like to know if you guys can offer any advice on fighting against these setup.
I read on a thread that I should stand in that smoky circle and 99% chance the thief will heartseeker me. Sorry, that doesn’t sound like a viable tactic to me. For one thing I am relying on him to screw up and if he doesn’t take the bait it will be back to square one for me. Even if he doesn’t HS me, the thief I fought against did not have the problem staying in perma-stealth.
i agree with the OP’s qq thread, thieves needs more nerfs…..must have ….moar !
sry for my engrish
ANet will have to adjust it if they feel it’s overpowered. The larger problem is initiative regen and not the finishers for shadow fields. But the easiest solution would be to make leap finishers in shadowfields do something else. Like give Aegis or Protection.
ANet will have to adjust it if they feel it’s overpowered. The larger problem is initiative regen and not the finishers for shadow fields. But the easiest solution would be to make leap finishers in shadowfields do something else. Like give Aegis or Protection.
yeah, but let’s not forget blast finishers+smoke fields…
ANet will have to adjust it if they feel it’s overpowered. The larger problem is initiative regen and not the finishers for shadow fields. But the easiest solution would be to make leap finishers in shadowfields do something else. Like give Aegis or Protection.
yeah, but let’s not forget blast finishers+smoke fields…
Nothing wrong with blast finishing a smoke field. Stealth has a duration cap last I tried it and the blast finishers are AE’s so if you hit someone when blast finishing you’re out of stealth. The other issue with smoke fields relates to the prior issue I mentioned of initiative regen.
If you want to nerf the problem, initiative regen is where the problem is. If you want to silence the crying as quickly as possible, you keep addressing the skills individually. Past experience from every MMO I’ve ever played with a stealth class says once you nerf one thing people jump on the bandwagon for the next skill though. It won’t end until the root problem is fixed.
I’ve gotta chime in here with a video simply because some of the recommendations here are great on paper, but don’t work in the game.
I was jumped by a cheesy D/P thief this morning who followed me for a good 35 minutes near the sentry SW of the garrison, the valley east of Bay, around the lake tower twice, under the bridge at the ruins, and finally his guildies showed up and chased me to my spawn (you can see the last of them leaving at the beginning of the video). Eventually, as you can see from the video, he was able to stealth enough to gain several stacks of might, pop Assassin’s Signet, get a lucky rng with his fire sigil, and down me.
I know the risks I run with running berserker gear in WvW. I know I have to be quick with my reflexes. There were several times I had the upper hand in our fights at various points around the borderland but at 25% health he would simply use cool downs to put distance between us and then just perma-stealth for health regen and to reset the fight. Before you comment that I’m a glass cannon, imagine this:
Assume I had the exact same damage as a glass-cannon, but maintained over 20k health and 3000 armor. Sure, he wouldn’t have killed me at the very end, but when would I have ever killed him, even doing the exact same damage? He would have done the exact same thing as he did every time he reached 25% health. He would have ran and used the combo to reset things and try again.
You’ll notice that it would be impossible to stand in his blinding fields. Also, you’ll notice that this thief could do some pretty good damage from stealth. Sure, jumping into the field sounds good, but it’s nearly impossible in practice.
In my opinion, two things should be done:
1. Stealth should not be allowed to stack, with the exception of Shadow Refuge, our get-out-of-jail-fee card; and
2. Any time we leave stealth, we gain revealed.
This would force players to rely on other thief escaping mechanisms that have cool downs instead of allowing some thieves to rely on something that has no cool down and stealth them permanently.
Here’s the video.
(edited by JakobGW.5730)
There’s nothing wrong with stealth stacking. In fact, I’d argue if stealth didn’t stack the way it does and Shadow Refuge just gave an instant 10 seconds of stealth, that skill just became wildly overpowered. But last I checked there was a cap on stealth duration so 2 thieves can’t just sit there blasting the field and gain 5mins of stealth for example. Can’t recall the cap off hand, but I want to say it was 11 seconds?
I also can’t agree with the whole ‘anytime you leave stealth you gain revealed’ argument because there are times when you enter stealth and the oppurtunity to use an attack doesn’t present itself. The target was already given a 4 second repreive of taking 0 damage. they don’t need another 3 seconds without threat of burst.
Honestly, the whole issue revolves around the initiative regen system. Remove all the initiative regen from skills and abilities. Leave in the trait to increase the initiative regen cap and the trait to give initiative on crit and call it a day.
Once they have a baseline that all Thieves will have in common they can worry about boosting areas that need improvement (removing so much regen and condi removal will probably need to see the Thief’s base HP increased to be more in line with Rangers for example).
There’s nothing wrong with stealth stacking. In fact, I’d argue if stealth didn’t stack the way it does and Shadow Refuge just gave an instant 10 seconds of stealth, that skill just became wildly overpowered. But last I checked there was a cap on stealth duration so 2 thieves can’t just sit there blasting the field and gain 5mins of stealth for example. Can’t recall the cap off hand, but I want to say it was 11 seconds?
How would it become overpowered if it currently already gives 10+ seconds of stealth so long as you stay inside it for 4 seconds?
I also can’t agree with the whole ‘anytime you leave stealth you gain revealed’ argument because there are times when you enter stealth and the oppurtunity to use an attack doesn’t present itself.
Wouldn’t this promote more player skill? In other words, a player shouldn’t just stealth because he/she can; he/she should only stealth when the opportunity to use an attack presented itself.
Honestly, the whole issue revolves around the initiative regen system. Remove all the initiative regen from skills and abilities. Leave in the trait to increase the initiative regen cap and the trait to give initiative on crit and call it a day.
You are nerfing every single ability that uses initiative when you nerf initiative; at least when you nerf stealth, you’re only nerfing a handful of abilities that use stealth. It wouldn’t “destroy the thief class,” contrary to many thieves who rely so heavily on the mechanism claim.
If there is a way to at least gauge where his position is, it will even the odds.
Theres an easy way to tell where he’s going, 99% of the time. If he’s attacking people, he’s moving to position himself behind whoever he is attacking in the faster way possible. If he’s running away and far away from you, he’s running straight in the direction you last saw him running. If he’s running away from you and is sort of close, he probably did a 180 and is running the exact opposite direction you last saw him.
This, also the difference in stats can be major in WvW. I’ve only met two thieves that were an absolute nightmare to deal with, but you could tell they had full exotics and infused gear and they had plenty of room to move around in. If he stuck around even after the keep was captured, he probably noticed that the players there looked like easy targets with weak gear.
Before you comment that I’m a glass cannon
I found your problem, and you even acknowledge it. Youre a GC character, youre not allowed to complain when someone bursts you down in 2 seconds. How does someone even follow you on thief for 35 minutes? I can lose anyone in 10 second on sword/dagger. Seriously…
Before you comment that I’m a glass cannon
I found your problem, and you even acknowledge it. Youre a GC character, youre not allowed to complain when someone bursts you down in 2 seconds.
This post is a perfect example of the problem with our thief community. Thieves like this guy don’t even read. When did I ever complain about getting bursted down in 2 seconds. Never. I was simply commenting on how the thief in the video used what many posters have said in the past is a broken mechanic. You, somehow, read somewhere that I was complaining about being bursted down in 2 seconds. . . .
How does someone even follow you on thief for 35 minutes? I can lose anyone in 10 second on sword/dagger. Seriously…
/facepalm. Again, reading comprehension. Nowhere did I ever say I was trying to lose this guy. Any thief can easily lose someone. I, unlike you apparently, like to go into WvW to fight, not run. I even mentioned that we had several fights where he was almost killed but used the BP + HS combo to reset the fight.
What possible benefit have you brought to this discussion? Shoo, go away, pest.
Here’s the video.
All I saw was you kittening around and getting killed. You made no attempt to flush her out. You made no attempt to force her to face stab so she may reveal herself.
2:30 of you dancing around pretty much told her you were kittening with her, so she waited for you. The moment you got close enough she blinded you, followed you in the wide arch you made and landed a backstab that put you on your kitten .
Yes, it is your fault for getting complacent while using zerk. It is also your fault for not turning sharply to make it harder for the backstab to land. Not only that, it keeps a backstabbing stealth thief in a small area 9 times out of 10. You could have hit them and possibly lay down some cripple.
All I saw was you kittening around and getting killed. You made no attempt to flush her out. You made no attempt to force her to face stab so she may reveal herself.
2:30 of you dancing around pretty much told her you were kittening with her, so she waited for you. The moment you got close enough she blinded you, followed you in the wide arch you made and landed a backstab that put you on your kitten .
Yes, it is your fault for getting complacent while using zerk. It is also your fault for not turning sharply to make it harder for the backstab to land. Not only that, it keeps a backstabbing stealth thief in a small area 9 times out of 10. You could have hit them and possibly lay down some cripple.
Honestly, I always appreciate a critique of my play style. I do like it when folks offer suggestions of how I can improve.
I suppose you’re right. I suppose I could have just swung my sword in the air over and over and over like an idiot hoping to see the combo chain. I “could” have hit the thief and “possibly” lay down some cripple. Obviously that would be entirely lucky as I didn’t see her within any proximity of striking distance from 00:15 until she killed me at 2:50 and, after all, she could easily dodge my attacks in stealth. I suppose I could have swung my sword repeatedly for over 2 1/2 minutes, “possibly” hitting her at most one time while he/she is regenerating health in stealth, of course.
It would have been pretty funny to him/her I’m sure if I was swinging over and over in thin air, sharply turning back and forth in a tight area, all hoping to mitigate a backstab and possibly hitting him/her, when in reality he/she is several units away, in stealth. I wouldn’t know, of course, as I can’t see him/her. I would just be guessing.
And that’s the point. It’s just too easy for a D/P thief to stealth over and over and over and over again whenever they please. There is no cooldown for this type of play style. You think players enjoy simply swinging in mid-air, hoping that they may lucky and actually hit a stealthed player, all while running back and forth using tight turns, when the thief could simply just back up, and do the whole BP + HS combo all over again with minimal to no risk. How many times does someone have to swing at thin air, running back and forth before it becomes stupid?
(edited by JakobGW.5730)
All I saw was you kittening around and getting killed. You made no attempt to flush her out. You made no attempt to force her to face stab so she may reveal herself.
2:30 of you dancing around pretty much told her you were kittening with her, so she waited for you. The moment you got close enough she blinded you, followed you in the wide arch you made and landed a backstab that put you on your kitten .
Yes, it is your fault for getting complacent while using zerk. It is also your fault for not turning sharply to make it harder for the backstab to land. Not only that, it keeps a backstabbing stealth thief in a small area 9 times out of 10. You could have hit them and possibly lay down some cripple.
Honestly, I always appreciate a critique of my play style. I do like it when folks offer suggestions of how I can improve.
I suppose you’re right. I suppose I could have just swung my sword in the air over and over and over like an idiot hoping to see the combo chain. I “could” have hit the thief and “possibly” lay down some cripple. Obviously that would be entirely lucky as I didn’t see her within any proximity of striking distance from 00:15 until she killed me at 2:50 and, after all, she could easily dodge my attacks in stealth. I suppose I could have swung my sword repeatedly for over 2 1/2 minutes, “possibly” hitting her at most one time while he/she is regenerating health in stealth, of course.
It would have been pretty funny to him/her I’m sure if I was swinging over and over in thin air, sharply turning back and forth in a tight area, all hoping to mitigate a backstab and possibly hitting him/her, when in reality he/she is several units away, in stealth. I wouldn’t know, of course, as I can’t see him/her. I would just be guessing.
And that’s the point. It’s just too easy for a D/P thief to stealth over and over and over and over again whenever they please. There is no cooldown for this type of play style. You think players enjoy simply swinging in mid-air, hoping that they may lucky and actually hit a stealthed player, all while running back and forth using tight turns, when the thief could simply just back up, and do the whole BP + HS combo all over again with minimal to no risk. How many times does someone have to swing at thin air, running back and forth before it becomes stupid?
Clearly a L2P issue here. Why would you try to troll a D/P on a zerker S/D?
That’s almost like a staff ele trying to troll a D/D ele in open field.
There are 3 exists from the spawn point. Pick a different one and go on your way. You can’t win every fight you encounter.
All I saw was you kittening around and getting killed. You made no attempt to flush her out. You made no attempt to force her to face stab so she may reveal herself.
2:30 of you dancing around pretty much told her you were kittening with her, so she waited for you. The moment you got close enough she blinded you, followed you in the wide arch you made and landed a backstab that put you on your kitten .
Yes, it is your fault for getting complacent while using zerk. It is also your fault for not turning sharply to make it harder for the backstab to land. Not only that, it keeps a backstabbing stealth thief in a small area 9 times out of 10. You could have hit them and possibly lay down some cripple.
Honestly, I always appreciate a critique of my play style. I do like it when folks offer suggestions of how I can improve.
I suppose you’re right. I suppose I could have just swung my sword in the air over and over and over like an idiot hoping to see the combo chain. I “could” have hit the thief and “possibly” lay down some cripple. Obviously that would be entirely lucky as I didn’t see her within any proximity of striking distance from 00:15 until she killed me at 2:50 and, after all, she could easily dodge my attacks in stealth. I suppose I could have swung my sword repeatedly for over 2 1/2 minutes, “possibly” hitting her at most one time while he/she is regenerating health in stealth, of course.
It would have been pretty funny to him/her I’m sure if I was swinging over and over in thin air, sharply turning back and forth in a tight area, all hoping to mitigate a backstab and possibly hitting him/her, when in reality he/she is several units away, in stealth. I wouldn’t know, of course, as I can’t see him/her. I would just be guessing.
And that’s the point. It’s just too easy for a D/P thief to stealth over and over and over and over again whenever they please. There is no cooldown for this type of play style. You think players enjoy simply swinging in mid-air, hoping that they may lucky and actually hit a stealthed player, all while running back and forth using tight turns, when the thief could simply just back up, and do the whole BP + HS combo all over again with minimal to no risk. How many times does someone have to swing at thin air, running back and forth before it becomes stupid?
Clearly a L2P issue here. Why would you try to troll a D/P on a zerker S/D?
That’s almost like a staff ele trying to troll a D/D ele in open field.
There are 3 exists from the spawn point. Pick a different one and go on your way. You can’t win every fight you encounter.
The lack of reading comprehension in this thread makes me face palm. It’s pretty clear to me from reading his whole post (something that seems difficult for others to do) that he made the video as a way to illustrate the perma-stealth mechanic and nothing else. He’s not trying to troll and I’d be willing to bet that he’s aware of the other two exits. He made the video to show how long (basically indefinitely) thieves can stay stealthed. I agree with Jakob – the perma stealth builds are ridiculous and need to be fixed.
I would wager that the thieves in this thread that are arguing with Jakob are thieves running this same cheese-tastic build.
Ok, I do admit that D/P perma stealth may need a bit of tweaking, but what other choice does d/p have? If you can’t burst someone down fast enough, the other player will kill you.
I was dueling a nade engi yesterday, and he could down me very fast I I just stood there and let him hit me. If you can’t burst them down fast enough, you will lose simply because: thieves with a backstab build have NO survivability outside of stealth. Deny stealth, and they lose.
So yes, it does need tweaking, as long as it comes with drastic survivability buffs to compensate.
Archonicable – Thief
0/6/6/0/6 – D/D + D/P
Crystal Desert
0/6/6/0/6 – D/D + D/P
Crystal Desert
All I saw was you kittening around and getting killed. You made no attempt to flush her out. You made no attempt to force her to face stab so she may reveal herself.
2:30 of you dancing around pretty much told her you were kittening with her, so she waited for you. The moment you got close enough she blinded you, followed you in the wide arch you made and landed a backstab that put you on your kitten .
Yes, it is your fault for getting complacent while using zerk. It is also your fault for not turning sharply to make it harder for the backstab to land. Not only that, it keeps a backstabbing stealth thief in a small area 9 times out of 10. You could have hit them and possibly lay down some cripple.
Honestly, I always appreciate a critique of my play style. I do like it when folks offer suggestions of how I can improve.
I suppose you’re right. I suppose I could have just swung my sword in the air over and over and over like an idiot hoping to see the combo chain. I “could” have hit the thief and “possibly” lay down some cripple. Obviously that would be entirely lucky as I didn’t see her within any proximity of striking distance from 00:15 until she killed me at 2:50 and, after all, she could easily dodge my attacks in stealth. I suppose I could have swung my sword repeatedly for over 2 1/2 minutes, “possibly” hitting her at most one time while he/she is regenerating health in stealth, of course.
It would have been pretty funny to him/her I’m sure if I was swinging over and over in thin air, sharply turning back and forth in a tight area, all hoping to mitigate a backstab and possibly hitting him/her, when in reality he/she is several units away, in stealth. I wouldn’t know, of course, as I can’t see him/her. I would just be guessing.
And that’s the point. It’s just too easy for a D/P thief to stealth over and over and over and over again whenever they please. There is no cooldown for this type of play style. You think players enjoy simply swinging in mid-air, hoping that they may lucky and actually hit a stealthed player, all while running back and forth using tight turns, when the thief could simply just back up, and do the whole BP + HS combo all over again with minimal to no risk. How many times does someone have to swing at thin air, running back and forth before it becomes stupid?
Clearly a L2P issue here. Why would you try to troll a D/P on a zerker S/D?
That’s almost like a staff ele trying to troll a D/D ele in open field.
There are 3 exists from the spawn point. Pick a different one and go on your way. You can’t win every fight you encounter.
The lack of reading comprehension in this thread makes me face palm. It’s pretty clear to me from reading his whole post (something that seems difficult for others to do) that he made the video as a way to illustrate the perma-stealth mechanic and nothing else. He’s not trying to troll and I’d be willing to bet that he’s aware of the other two exits. He made the video to show how long (basically indefinitely) thieves can stay stealthed. I agree with Jakob – the perma stealth builds are ridiculous and need to be fixed.
I would wager that the thieves in this thread that are arguing with Jakob are thieves running this same cheese-tastic build.
I know right! Best place to starting looking is at your own comment.
“…that he made the video as a way to illustrate the perma-stealth mechanic and nothing else.”
Not only did he post that video to show how long a d/p can stay in stealth, he also suggested blanket nerfs to all stealth users; D/D, S/D, D/P, P/D, etc. So, please read his posts and try to comprehend fully what he is trying to say/do.
All I saw was you kittening around and getting killed. You made no attempt to flush her out. You made no attempt to force her to face stab so she may reveal herself.
2:30 of you dancing around pretty much told her you were kittening with her, so she waited for you. The moment you got close enough she blinded you, followed you in the wide arch you made and landed a backstab that put you on your kitten .
Yes, it is your fault for getting complacent while using zerk. It is also your fault for not turning sharply to make it harder for the backstab to land. Not only that, it keeps a backstabbing stealth thief in a small area 9 times out of 10. You could have hit them and possibly lay down some cripple.
Honestly, I always appreciate a critique of my play style. I do like it when folks offer suggestions of how I can improve.
I suppose you’re right. I suppose I could have just swung my sword in the air over and over and over like an idiot hoping to see the combo chain. I “could” have hit the thief and “possibly” lay down some cripple. Obviously that would be entirely lucky as I didn’t see her within any proximity of striking distance from 00:15 until she killed me at 2:50 and, after all, she could easily dodge my attacks in stealth. I suppose I could have swung my sword repeatedly for over 2 1/2 minutes, “possibly” hitting her at most one time while he/she is regenerating health in stealth, of course.
It would have been pretty funny to him/her I’m sure if I was swinging over and over in thin air, sharply turning back and forth in a tight area, all hoping to mitigate a backstab and possibly hitting him/her, when in reality he/she is several units away, in stealth. I wouldn’t know, of course, as I can’t see him/her. I would just be guessing.
And that’s the point. It’s just too easy for a D/P thief to stealth over and over and over and over again whenever they please. There is no cooldown for this type of play style. You think players enjoy simply swinging in mid-air, hoping that they may lucky and actually hit a stealthed player, all while running back and forth using tight turns, when the thief could simply just back up, and do the whole BP + HS combo all over again with minimal to no risk. How many times does someone have to swing at thin air, running back and forth before it becomes stupid?
I know what you mean by the constant stealthing. Regardless of stealthing, that’s why I preach cripple. That 50% running speed will neutralize their Fleet Shadow if they have it. It will keep them that much closer so you can melt them faster.
Secondly you do not have swing at the air like a kitten. Uncatchable is a good tool in TvT fights. Stealth heavy builds will have the hardest time running away when constantly crippled. You can use this to chase them.
The last few times I did this, the thief I was chasing ended up burning all of their stealth options and started relying on Black Powder > Heartseeker crap. Now I understand running through the BP circle will blind you but at least you have a good chance to force a Revealed. That’s what I do anyway. It’s just basic brawling from there.
All I saw was you kittening around and getting killed. You made no attempt to flush her out. You made no attempt to force her to face stab so she may reveal herself.
2:30 of you dancing around pretty much told her you were kittening with her, so she waited for you. The moment you got close enough she blinded you, followed you in the wide arch you made and landed a backstab that put you on your kitten .
Yes, it is your fault for getting complacent while using zerk. It is also your fault for not turning sharply to make it harder for the backstab to land. Not only that, it keeps a backstabbing stealth thief in a small area 9 times out of 10. You could have hit them and possibly lay down some cripple.
Honestly, I always appreciate a critique of my play style. I do like it when folks offer suggestions of how I can improve.
I suppose you’re right. I suppose I could have just swung my sword in the air over and over and over like an idiot hoping to see the combo chain. I “could” have hit the thief and “possibly” lay down some cripple. Obviously that would be entirely lucky as I didn’t see her within any proximity of striking distance from 00:15 until she killed me at 2:50 and, after all, she could easily dodge my attacks in stealth. I suppose I could have swung my sword repeatedly for over 2 1/2 minutes, “possibly” hitting her at most one time while he/she is regenerating health in stealth, of course.
It would have been pretty funny to him/her I’m sure if I was swinging over and over in thin air, sharply turning back and forth in a tight area, all hoping to mitigate a backstab and possibly hitting him/her, when in reality he/she is several units away, in stealth. I wouldn’t know, of course, as I can’t see him/her. I would just be guessing.
And that’s the point. It’s just too easy for a D/P thief to stealth over and over and over and over again whenever they please. There is no cooldown for this type of play style. You think players enjoy simply swinging in mid-air, hoping that they may lucky and actually hit a stealthed player, all while running back and forth using tight turns, when the thief could simply just back up, and do the whole BP + HS combo all over again with minimal to no risk. How many times does someone have to swing at thin air, running back and forth before it becomes stupid?
Clearly a L2P issue here. Why would you try to troll a D/P on a zerker S/D?
That’s almost like a staff ele trying to troll a D/D ele in open field.
There are 3 exists from the spawn point. Pick a different one and go on your way. You can’t win every fight you encounter.
The lack of reading comprehension in this thread makes me face palm. It’s pretty clear to me from reading his whole post (something that seems difficult for others to do) that he made the video as a way to illustrate the perma-stealth mechanic and nothing else. He’s not trying to troll and I’d be willing to bet that he’s aware of the other two exits. He made the video to show how long (basically indefinitely) thieves can stay stealthed. I agree with Jakob – the perma stealth builds are ridiculous and need to be fixed.
I would wager that the thieves in this thread that are arguing with Jakob are thieves running this same cheese-tastic build.
I know right! Best place to starting looking is at your own comment.
“…that he made the video as a way to illustrate the perma-stealth mechanic and nothing else.”
Not only did he post that video to show how long a d/p can stay in stealth, he also suggested blanket nerfs to all stealth users; D/D, S/D, D/P, P/D, etc. So, please read his posts and try to comprehend fully what he is trying to say/do.
That’s funny. In the last part of my first paragraph I state, “I agree with Jakob – the perma stealth builds are ridiculous and need to be fixed.” So this implies that I did, in fact, both read and comprehend fully what he was trying to say/do (although I’m not surprised you didn’t pick up on that little tidbit given how quickly you seem to skim through posts and since it wasn’t spelled out in BIG BOLD LETTERS). Please though, do try to come back at me with some witty and clever retort! I find it most entertaining and I know you will need to get the last word in.
Go full bunker d/d like every pro ele and it’s unlikely the thief has enough damage to get you down. But no, you can’t take him either unless if you have a group or he plays very badly.
d/p stealth on demand crap needs to be tuned. That’s the first thing. Then if thieves still seem to powerful, reduce their damage so that they are balanced. Alternatively you could tune backstab so that it can no longer be “spammed till it hits”. No other changes are needed me thinks.
The cloack and dagger spam is easily countered via the “3 seconds rule”. It’s the same rule that applies to bosses of pve.
? <(^-^><)>^-^)> <(^-^)> ?
(edited by Master of Timespace.2548)
if u tune down d/p then d/d is way OP.
I got one ele level 80, thieves are a walk in the park to slay
On the sidenote though, I do also have a level 80 thief where I pretty much wreck everything, lol.
It’s all about learning how to counter a class, and if a thief is permanent stealthed, he’s not really trying to kill you, he’s only there to play with you and can easy be killed if you cc him with anything (like eles earthquake spell). Use that, ring of fire and Arcana wave to just trash him.
Here’s the video.
Excellent video and it showcases the clearly broken chain-stealth mechanics that D/P possess.
This is certainly is a L2P issue, but not for the opponents of D/P thieves. Instead, the people who need to L2P are the D/P thieves who are apparently so bad that they are incapable of playing the game without abusing chain-stealth.
IMO it’s a crutch, for bad thieves.
For the last time, stop telling people to stand in the Black Powder.
Not only do you blind yourself, I will just Backstab you.
. After doing that I’ve yet to see more than 2-3 people who still complained about thieves once they’ve learned the class inside out.
Guess I’m one of these people. Got one to 80 and WvWed a lot, and still think they are OP. But whatever, my Thief is lv 80 so it doesn’t matter.
Because walking around like a kitten is going to make a difference. A simple 3+1 combo = instant backstab. OR the thief, having 9s of stealth, is just going to walk up to you. There is no difference except you sacrifice getting blinded for a rather large HP gain by the thief. I’d much rather prevent the thief from healing 2K more HP in stealth. I’ve lost to maybe 1 D/P thief in a duel. I think I know how to fight them.
(edited by Doomdesire.9365)
Thanks for all the constructive responses (except for that one troll post). I really learned a few things about perma-stealth thieves.
FYI I have ran D/D in sPvP before and find that it is really cheap/easy (take your pick).
So moral of the story is CC/AoE/stand in the black powder circle and hurt thief and/or force a reveal.
Thanks for all the constructive responses (except for that one troll post). I really learned a few things about perma-stealth thieves.
FYI I have ran D/D in sPvP before and find that it is really cheap/easy (take your pick).
So moral of the story is CC/AoE/stand in the black powder circle and hurt thief and/or force a reveal.
Standing in BP is situational and you’re going to get hit no matter what, but if it benefits you to prevent him from getting 9s of stealth as compared to 3s and you would sacrifice getting hit by it, then it’s worth it, but it’s completely up to your judgement. I’m just putting it out there as it’s helped me alot when the thief was nearly dead.
Also if you’re going to try and hit him with AoE, best bet, if he is melee, to AoE at your feet and stand in it, unless you know/accurately predict where he is, because you know most of the time he’s going in behind you for that backstab, so if you aoe at your feet, he is going to get hit.
Before you comment that I’m a glass cannon
I found your problem, and you even acknowledge it. Youre a GC character, youre not allowed to complain when someone bursts you down in 2 seconds.
This post is a perfect example of the problem with our thief community. Thieves like this guy don’t even read. When did I ever complain about getting bursted down in 2 seconds. Never. I was simply commenting on how the thief in the video used what many posters have said in the past is a broken mechanic. You, somehow, read somewhere that I was complaining about being bursted down in 2 seconds. . . .
My bad, you were QQing because he can hide in stealth and you cant just take your lame zerker spec and down him with no effort and you have to actually try to fight him, but you cant… because he bursts you down in 2 seconds. Your post is a good example of the fake thief community, the people who say “I play thief and stealth is OP, and I know, because I am a thief and that makes what I say valid.” When clearly, this is not the case and you have no idea what you’re doing. I think the problem here is you need to L2P and quit QQing on the forums.
How does someone even follow you on thief for 35 minutes? I can lose anyone in 10 second on sword/dagger. Seriously…
/facepalm. Again, reading comprehension. Nowhere did I ever say I was trying to lose this guy. Any thief can easily lose someone. I, unlike you apparently, like to go into WvW to fight, not run. I even mentioned that we had several fights where he was almost killed but used the BP + HS combo to reset the fight.
What possible benefit have you brought to this discussion? Shoo, go away, pest.
I, unlike you, recognize a waste of time and lack of getting kills. If I fight someone for 5 minutes and cant kill them and they cant kill me, I leave, and go find other people to fight. Because I, unlike you, like to kill people. The last thing I would do is let them stalk me for 35 minutes then record them killing me and make a giant QQ post on the forums about it.
So what have you brought to any discussion? Nothing? Shoo, go away, pest.
(edited by wish.1027)
So moral of the story is CC/AoE/stand in the black powder circle and hurt thief and/or force a reveal.
Or you can dodge through it with uncatchable. :3 Taint their comfy circle with pricklies.
The last thing I would do is let them stalk me for 35 minutes then record them killing me and make a giant QQ post on the forums about it.
So what have you brought to any discussion? Nothing? Shoo, go away, pest.
unfortunately, all of the QQ bandwagon behave like this
they play poor, then make video how a friend thief is insta gib him/her, perma stealth etc.
then complain on forums
WTF ! shouldn’t be some kind of punishment for this ?
and, unfortunately for us, a-net listens for the r-kitten posts those individuals make
after 1 month the nerfs come, lol
based on some troll QQ posts, not real facts
(edited by DanH.5879)
Thief has a trait that purges the cripple when they dodge.
Is that a normal trait choice for WvW thieves?
Thx.
Thief has a trait that purges the cripple when they dodge.
Is that a normal trait choice for WvW thieves?
Thx.
You are referring to:
Fleet of Foot, Acrobatics: 20
Dodging removes cripple and weakness from you. (10s cooldown)
I think most Thieves tend not to trait for it, either because it seems better suited for an evade based build (condition or otherwise) or there are other better Acrobatics traits.
Damage Dolly
we all began as something else
we all began as something else
Before you comment that I’m a glass cannon
I found your problem, and you even acknowledge it. Youre a GC character, youre not allowed to complain when someone bursts you down in 2 seconds.
This post is a perfect example of the problem with our thief community. Thieves like this guy don’t even read. When did I ever complain about getting bursted down in 2 seconds. Never. I was simply commenting on how the thief in the video used what many posters have said in the past is a broken mechanic. You, somehow, read somewhere that I was complaining about being bursted down in 2 seconds. . . .
My bad, you were QQing because he can hide in stealth and you cant just take your lame zerker spec and down him with no effort and you have to actually try to fight him, but you cant… because he bursts you down in 2 seconds. Your post is a good example of the fake thief community, the people who say “I play thief and stealth is OP, and I know, because I am a thief and that makes what I say valid.” When clearly, this is not the case and you have no idea what you’re doing. I think the problem here is you need to L2P and quit QQing on the forums.
How does someone even follow you on thief for 35 minutes? I can lose anyone in 10 second on sword/dagger. Seriously…
/facepalm. Again, reading comprehension. Nowhere did I ever say I was trying to lose this guy. Any thief can easily lose someone. I, unlike you apparently, like to go into WvW to fight, not run. I even mentioned that we had several fights where he was almost killed but used the BP + HS combo to reset the fight.
What possible benefit have you brought to this discussion? Shoo, go away, pest.
I, unlike you, recognize a waste of time and lack of getting kills. If I fight someone for 5 minutes and cant kill them and they cant kill me, I leave, and go find other people to fight. Because I, unlike you, like to kill people. The last thing I would do is let them stalk me for 35 minutes then record them killing me and make a giant QQ post on the forums about it.
So what have you brought to any discussion? Nothing? Shoo, go away, pest.
Honestly, you’re the one who comes across as the “QQ’er” in all this. You don’t like the fact that someone has some valid points about certain problems with stealth so your instant reaction is “zomg noobzers L2P u so bad lawl.”
His first post is pretty straight forward and matter-of-fact. He clearly states that he understands the risk he takes running his current gear setup. He makes some pretty valid points about why he thinks stealth stacking is bad for the game and then he uses the video as evidence to back up his argument. I never once read that he thinks stealth is “OP” as you claim he says and I never saw him kittening about getting killed. The whole point of the video is to show how long a thief can stay in stealth.
Now please come back at me with all your “QQ’s” and “L2P’s” since that seems to be the only argument you can come up with.
Thief has a trait that purges the cripple when they dodge.
Is that a normal trait choice for WvW thieves?
Thx.
Hardly anybody uses that. It’s just not that useful when you already remove conditions fairly well in stealth.
After doing that I’ve yet to see more than 2-3 people who still complained about thieves once they’ve learned the class inside out.
Hey, add me to that list. Yea, I dare to argue I know enough about the thief given how much I play my thief. This game isn’t Rocket Science. I also know plenty of good thieves who think d/p crap is ridiculous.
? <(^-^><)>^-^)> <(^-^)> ?
(edited by Master of Timespace.2548)
Now please come back at me with all your “QQ’s” and “L2P’s” since that seems to be the only argument you can come up with.
I dont need a better argument, Im using the one the DEV used in response to all the QQs about thief in PVP. He said thieves are predictable and easy to kill because of it, all you have to do is learn their mechanics. I dunno why is this so difficult a concept for some people to comprehend. Especially people who have thief leveled up to 80. Take your QQs somewhere else, most people in the thief foruma re tired of it, and would rather have constructive threads on top than this garbage all the time.
Hey all, the OP seemed pretty satisfied with some of the more helpful responses here. This started as a mild QQ thread, but more a sincere request for advice. Many of us gave that advice. Now it’s devolved into “nerf it all” vs “you’re a jerk”. Let’s leave it be for now please.
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