Guild Wars 2

So in order to compete with the utility that d/p has, I have an idea to make it more of a viable choice.

Since dagger/pistol is able to have an initiation tool, daze on command and stackable steath, something d/d could use is a combo system between two abilities that might make it more on par:

Dagger/Dagger
4th abililty: Dancing Dagger- cripples and applies a mark for X seconds
3rd ability: Death blossom- evades and bleeds nearby foes. When targeting an enemy marked with dancing dagger, shadow step and daze your foe.
5th ability Cloak and dagger: simply increase stealth time and/or vulnerability stacks (to make having to be in melee range more rewarding, especially for glass cannon thieves)

(Re-)Improved damage on Dancing Dagger and a Blind on Cloak and Dagger.
Would help any weapon set using the Dagger off-hand massively.

I like your idea about the synergy between #4 and #3 though… That’s actually very interesting. But how would that Mark behave with Sword or Pistol for a main-hand?
Flanking Strike/Larcenous Strike and Shadow Strike are already good in their own way…

Thats true they are pretty good, but maybe it would just apply a couple stacks of vulnerability/extra torment if you land the mark first, that way it would reward you for setting up your burst rather than jumping in too quickly.

Hmm, Vulnerability on Flanking/Larcenous Strike might be too strong (quick edit: This due to it’s relatively low initiative cost which I don’t want to see increased + CnD also applying it. That said, S/D could do with a bit more damage compared to the overtuned Dagger/Staff). But I suppose Torment on Shadow Strike might be a good option since P/D tends to be used as a Condi set most of the time. Not sure though, I never play condi myself and I haven’t fought any decent P/D thieves for a long time either.

But wahey, it looks solid enough to me on paper, worse “tweaks” have made it ingame lol

My suggestion is to make CnD cost far less when it misses, is blocked, etc. Misses with that skill are very costly in both DPS and survival.

Dont like personally the proposed system with the proposed effects.
Would like something more effectful, that makes D/D a strong tactical choice over the other Weapon Sets that are more about mobility, cleave/CC on demand and boon control.

D/D should give thieves a Weapon Set, with that they can be more unpredictable due to many possible synergy effects that should come from the Weapon Skills as like also your choice of Utility Skills you use.

Would personally like it more with effects like this that my imo significantly more sense, especially in such close melee combat as like you have it most of all times with D/D

AA) Double Strike (Each Attack hits now twice, similar to the Attacks of the Assassin in GW1) > Lotus Strike (merged now with Wild Strike) > Assassin’s Promise (New AA Finisher)

Assassin’s Promise Attack a targeted foe with Assassin’s Promise, dealing damage and causing 3 Stacks of Vulnerability, leaving additionally a “Stigma” at your hit target.
As long as the Stigma is there for the duration of 5 seconds, will cause any other Dagger Skills of the Thief and utility Skills Stigma based Synergy Effects.

Stigma of Agility = Activates when using Heartseeker on a stigmataed foe, granting you for 2 seconds Quickness.

Stigma of Blood = Activates when using Deathly Bloosom on a stigmataed foe, letting you leech life secondly from all hit targets that you caused to Bleed as long as they are bleeding

Stigma of Speed = Activates when using Dancing Daggers on a stigmataed foe, the Dancing Dagger becomes flying alot faster (+33%), becomes unblockable and lets you shadowstep to your target. The Danging Daggr won’t cripple in this case, but daze the foe and removes a Boon, if the target had more than 3 Boons.

Stigma of Twilight = Activates when using Cloak and Dagger on a stigmataed foe, Cloak & Dagger will AoE blind then also additionally foes and you won’t get revealed on attack number one, but now first on your second attack from stealth, and the Stealth Duration is increased by 50% if you used the skill on somebody who was stigmataed from Assassin’s Promise’s passive effect that can’t get removed, its duration must run out
——

Stigma of Venom – Scorpion Wire: Activates when using Scorpion Wire on a stigmataed foe, Scorpion Wire will have in this case 25% reduced recharge time and will additionally poison and cripple the foe, after it has been pulled to you, which will be stronge,r so further the distance was, givign this way the poison more time to increase quickly in stacks. if a target gets pulled from max distance, will you gain also a random Venom Effect as if you would have used that Venom Skill

Stigma of Torment – Roll For Initiative: Activates when using Roll For Initiative in near of a stigmataed foe, you will cleanse then Torment and Confusion. If you had at that moment these Conditions, will receive stigmataed foes in your near then these Conditions.

Stigma of Slowness – Haste: Activates when you use Haste near stigmataed foes, then you will slow and cripple nearby stigmataed foes.

Stigma of Pain – Caltrops: Activates when you use Caltrops and stigmataed foes run into their effect area, whenever a stigmataed foe receives Bleeding Stacks from Caltrops, they receive also Vulnerability and lose protective Boons (Protection, Aegis, Vigor, Stability, Resistance)

Stigma of Assasination – Ambush: Activates on trigger of Ambush by a stigmataed foe running into the trap, the stigmataed foe will get taunted by the ambushing Thief Minion, whilethe Thief Minion receives in this case Quickness, Protection and some stacks of Might.

Stigma of Shadows – Shadow Trap: Activates on trigger of Shadow Trap by a stigmataed foe running into the trap, you will gain Initiative additionally and you gain Stealth now, so that you can surprise your victim directly with a Backstab on arrival instead of shadowsstepping to a fow and havign to waste then first a cloak and dagger for Stealth, with Stigma of Shadows you shadowstep already stealthed to the stigmataed foe.

Stigma of Penetration – Needle Trap: Activates on trigger of Needle Trap by a stigmataed foe running into the trap, the trap then in this case will deal now more damage and has increased range to up to 10 Targets nearby of that foe and causes additionally now also Slow

Stigma of Surprise – Tripwire: Activates on trigger of Tripwire by a stigmataed foe running into the trap, the trap will recharge then faster and affected foes will get revealed and weakened now additionally when among the trap triggerers was a stigmataed foe

Stigma of Toxity – Skale Venom: Activates when hitting stigmataed foes with Skale Venom active. A stigmataed foes will suffer additionalyl on Poison and Blindness

Stigma of Weakness – Ice Drake Venom: Activates when hitting stigmataed foes with Ice Drake Venom active. A stigmataed foe under Chill will deal 10% lesser damage to you and the foes conditions on you will expire faster.

Stigma of Absorption – Devourer Venom: Activates when hitting stigmataed foes with Devourer Venom active. A stigmataed foe hit by this venom will get its Endurance absorbed by you by 50% per hit, as you gain the absorbed Endurance by 25% hit per hit.

Stigma of Paralyzation – Spider Venom: Activates when hitting stigmataed foes with Spider Venom active. A stigmataed foe hit by this Venom will also get stunned on application of poison, as also when it gets removed by the foe, before the poison durarion could expire by itself.

Stigma of Darkness – Shadow Refuge: Passively active for stigmataed foes the moment you activate Shadow Refuge, stigmataed foes become secondly blinded the moment they enter your Shadow Refuge and periodically also receive Chill.

Stigma of Rogues – Shadow Step: Activates on usage instantly, if in the target area was a stigmataed foe, then you will steal from that stigmataed foe, even if your Steal is currently filled by a Steal Skill, as if you would have used Steal on this foe, all Steal effects will also happen like you traited your Steal to work. The difference is, your current Steal Skill wont get replaced, you will be able to use the skill twice!!

Stigma of Retreat – Blinding Powder: Activates if you blind with this skill a stigmataed foe. Bliding Poweder will under this effect turn after usage into Shadow Step allowing you to perform a quick retreat away from your foe if needed, including Shadow Return.

Stigma of Distraction – Smoke Screen: Activates on usage of Smoke Screen, if a stigmataed foe comes nearer to the Smoke Screen – summons two Shadow Clones for 10 seconds of you that will attack any stigmataed foes which try to get close to the Smoke Screen or go through it. These Shadow Clones attack mainly stigmataed foes and can’t be targeted. 8turns this skill practically into a spawn gate of shadow clones if stigmataed foes get too close to it)

Stigma of Seals – Signet of Shadows: Activates on using the Signet on a stigmataed foe, the moment you use the Signet, a random unused Utility Skill from the sitgmataed foe will be sealed off, until your Signet of Shadows Skill has been recharged.

Stigma of Sabotage – Signet of Infiltration: Activates on using Signet of Infiltration on a stigmataed foe, the shadow step towards you foe will cause also Weakness to a stigmataed foe, while it will also deactivate all layed traps for you from a stigmataed foe and instead will turn the traps to harm the stigmataed foe instead if he runs into them in hope to lure you into them, thinking his traps still work for him…

Stigma of Fear – Assassins Signet: Activates on usage of the Assassins Signet, all nearby stigmataed foes will deal 15% lesser damage for kittens and if your last empowered attack hits a stigmataed foe, then this attack will cause Fear for 2 seconds, 3 with additional added Torment, if that last attack was a Backstab.

Stigma of Regeneration – Signet of Agility – Activates on using the the Signet of Agility, nearby stigmataed foes lose for the time your Signet needs to reload their class based passive over time regeneration effects that come from either skills or traits and you gain Regeneration plus the skill works for that moment then also as Stun Breaker and removes instead of only 1 then up to 3 Conditions.

Stigma of Revenge – Bandit’s Defense: Activates when blocking with this Skill attacks from a stigmataed foe. Changes the retaliatory kick attack from a 2s knockdown to a powerful revengeful launch away and you receive Retaliation and Protection.

Stigma of Hallucinations – Distracting Daggers: Activated on usage against a stigmataed foe. These foes hit by Distracting Daggers won’t be able to hit you, their next attack that would usually hit you will be auto evaded through small blinding powders bags that were attached to the distracting daggers causing Blindness to them short before the attack would land due to the powder from the daggers causing hallucinations to the stigmataed foe.

Stigma of Death – Impairing Daggers: Activates when hitting a stigmataed foe with this attack, the effect from imparign daggers on stigmataed foes will be double as strong, if the stigmataed foe is under 50% health.

Stigma of Aggresivity – Fist Flurry: activates on usage of Fist Flurry against a stigmataed foe, using Fist Flurry agaisnt a stigmataed foe will grant you stacks of might for each attack that lands, fury and Super Speed also for every attack that lands.
Palm Strike will stun a second longer and Pulmonary Impact will deal increased damage against stigmataed foes.

Dancing dagger, you now shadow step to each target and do a backstab on each target the dagger hits, then you blow up and hope everyone dies

Orpheal.8263:

Dont like personally the proposed system with the proposed effects.
Would like something more effectful, that makes D/D a strong tactical choice over the other Weapon Sets that are more about mobility, cleave/CC on demand and boon control.

D/D should give thieves a Weapon Set, with that they can be more unpredictable due to many possible synergy effects that should come from the Weapon Skills as like also your choice of Utility Skills you use.

Would personally like it more with effects like this that my imo significantly more sense, especially in such close melee combat as like you have it most of all times with D/D

AA) Double Strike (Each Attack hits now twice, similar to the Attacks of the Assassin in GW1) > Lotus Strike (merged now with Wild Strike) > Assassin’s Promise (New AA Finisher)

Assassin’s Promise Attack a targeted foe with Assassin’s Promise, dealing damage and causing 3 Stacks of Vulnerability, leaving additionally a “Stigma” at your hit target.
As long as the Stigma is there for the duration of 5 seconds, will cause any other Dagger Skills of the Thief and utility Skills Stigma based Synergy Effects.

Stigma of Agility = Activates when using Heartseeker on a stigmataed foe, granting you for 2 seconds Quickness.

Stigma of Blood = Activates when using Deathly Bloosom on a stigmataed foe, letting you leech life secondly from all hit targets that you caused to Bleed as long as they are bleeding

Stigma of Speed = Activates when using Dancing Daggers on a stigmataed foe, the Dancing Dagger becomes flying alot faster (+33%), becomes unblockable and lets you shadowstep to your target. The Danging Daggr won’t cripple in this case, but daze the foe and removes a Boon, if the target had more than 3 Boons.

Stigma of Twilight = Activates when using Cloak and Dagger on a stigmataed foe, Cloak & Dagger will AoE blind then also additionally foes and you won’t get revealed on attack number one, but now first on your second attack from stealth, and the Stealth Duration is increased by 50% if you used the skill on somebody who was stigmataed from Assassin’s Promise’s passive effect that can’t get removed, its duration must run out
——

Stigma of Venom – Scorpion Wire: Activates when using Scorpion Wire on a stigmataed foe, Scorpion Wire will have in this case 25% reduced recharge time and will additionally poison and cripple the foe, after it has been pulled to you, which will be stronge,r so further the distance was, givign this way the poison more time to increase quickly in stacks. if a target gets pulled from max distance, will you gain also a random Venom Effect as if you would have used that Venom Skill

Stigma of Torment – Roll For Initiative: Activates when using Roll For Initiative in near of a stigmataed foe, you will cleanse then Torment and Confusion. If you had at that moment these Conditions, will receive stigmataed foes in your near then these Conditions.

Stigma of Slowness – Haste: Activates when you use Haste near stigmataed foes, then you will slow and cripple nearby stigmataed foes.

Stigma of Pain – Caltrops: Activates when you use Caltrops and stigmataed foes run into their effect area, whenever a stigmataed foe receives Bleeding Stacks from Caltrops, they receive also Vulnerability and lose protective Boons (Protection, Aegis, Vigor, Stability, Resistance)

Stigma of Assasination – Ambush: Activates on trigger of Ambush by a stigmataed foe running into the trap, the stigmataed foe will get taunted by the ambushing Thief Minion, whilethe Thief Minion receives in this case Quickness, Protection and some stacks of Might.

Stigma of Shadows – Shadow Trap: Activates on trigger of Shadow Trap by a stigmataed foe running into the trap, you will gain Initiative additionally and you gain Stealth now, so that you can surprise your victim directly with a Backstab on arrival instead of shadowsstepping to a fow and havign to waste then first a cloak and dagger for Stealth, with Stigma of Shadows you shadowstep already stealthed to the stigmataed foe.

Stigma of Penetration – Needle Trap: Activates on trigger of Needle Trap by a stigmataed foe running into the trap, the trap then in this case will deal now more damage and has increased range to up to 10 Targets nearby of that foe and causes additionally now also Slow

Stigma of Surprise – Tripwire: Activates on trigger of Tripwire by a stigmataed foe running into the trap, the trap will recharge then faster and affected foes will get revealed and weakened now additionally when among the trap triggerers was a stigmataed foe

Stigma of Toxity – Skale Venom: Activates when hitting stigmataed foes with Skale Venom active. A stigmataed foes will suffer additionalyl on Poison and Blindness

Stigma of Weakness – Ice Drake Venom: Activates when hitting stigmataed foes with Ice Drake Venom active. A stigmataed foe under Chill will deal 10% lesser damage to you and the foes conditions on you will expire faster.

Stigma of Absorption – Devourer Venom: Activates when hitting stigmataed foes with Devourer Venom active. A stigmataed foe hit by this venom will get its Endurance absorbed by you by 50% per hit, as you gain the absorbed Endurance by 25% hit per hit.

Stigma of Paralyzation – Spider Venom: Activates when hitting stigmataed foes with Spider Venom active. A stigmataed foe hit by this Venom will also get stunned on application of poison, as also when it gets removed by the foe, before the poison durarion could expire by itself.

Stigma of Darkness – Shadow Refuge: Passively active for stigmataed foes the moment you activate Shadow Refuge, stigmataed foes become secondly blinded the moment they enter your Shadow Refuge and periodically also receive Chill.

Stigma of Rogues – Shadow Step: Activates on usage instantly, if in the target area was a stigmataed foe, then you will steal from that stigmataed foe, even if your Steal is currently filled by a Steal Skill, as if you would have used Steal on this foe, all Steal effects will also happen like you traited your Steal to work. The difference is, your current Steal Skill wont get replaced, you will be able to use the skill twice!!

Stigma of Retreat – Blinding Powder: Activates if you blind with this skill a stigmataed foe. Bliding Poweder will under this effect turn after usage into Shadow Step allowing you to perform a quick retreat away from your foe if needed, including Shadow Return.

Stigma of Distraction – Smoke Screen: Activates on usage of Smoke Screen, if a stigmataed foe comes nearer to the Smoke Screen – summons two Shadow Clones for 10 seconds of you that will attack any stigmataed foes which try to get close to the Smoke Screen or go through it. These Shadow Clones attack mainly stigmataed foes and can’t be targeted. 8turns this skill practically into a spawn gate of shadow clones if stigmataed foes get too close to it)

Stigma of Seals – Signet of Shadows: Activates on using the Signet on a stigmataed foe, the moment you use the Signet, a random unused Utility Skill from the sitgmataed foe will be sealed off, until your Signet of Shadows Skill has been recharged.

Stigma of Sabotage – Signet of Infiltration: Activates on using Signet of Infiltration on a stigmataed foe, the shadow step towards you foe will cause also Weakness to a stigmataed foe, while it will also deactivate all layed traps for you from a stigmataed foe and instead will turn the traps to harm the stigmataed foe instead if he runs into them in hope to lure you into them, thinking his traps still work for him…

Stigma of Fear – Assassins Signet: Activates on usage of the Assassins Signet, all nearby stigmataed foes will deal 15% lesser damage for kittens and if your last empowered attack hits a stigmataed foe, then this attack will cause Fear for 2 seconds, 3 with additional added Torment, if that last attack was a Backstab.

Stigma of Regeneration – Signet of Agility – Activates on using the the Signet of Agility, nearby stigmataed foes lose for the time your Signet needs to reload their class based passive over time regeneration effects that come from either skills or traits and you gain Regeneration plus the skill works for that moment then also as Stun Breaker and removes instead of only 1 then up to 3 Conditions.

Stigma of Revenge – Bandit’s Defense: Activates when blocking with this Skill attacks from a stigmataed foe. Changes the retaliatory kick attack from a 2s knockdown to a powerful revengeful launch away and you receive Retaliation and Protection.

Stigma of Hallucinations – Distracting Daggers: Activated on usage against a stigmataed foe. These foes hit by Distracting Daggers won’t be able to hit you, their next attack that would usually hit you will be auto evaded through small blinding powders bags that were attached to the distracting daggers causing Blindness to them short before the attack would land due to the powder from the daggers causing hallucinations to the stigmataed foe.

Stigma of Death – Impairing Daggers: Activates when hitting a stigmataed foe with this attack, the effect from imparign daggers on stigmataed foes will be double as strong, if the stigmataed foe is under 50% health.

Stigma of Aggresivity – Fist Flurry: activates on usage of Fist Flurry against a stigmataed foe, using Fist Flurry agaisnt a stigmataed foe will grant you stacks of might for each attack that lands, fury and Super Speed also for every attack that lands.
Palm Strike will stun a second longer and Pulmonary Impact will deal increased damage against stigmataed foes.

I don’t play engineer for this reason.

Problem with D/D is that people can’t agree on how they want to play it due to its hybrid approach. Power players want/need a changed DB, condi players don’t like CnD and backstab weaving which the set features for power play.

Dancing Dagger can’t get buffed unless it stops bouncing, and will remain continuously pretty terrible, and obviously changes to HS aren’t really a good idea.

Vornollo.5182:

(Re-)Improved damage on Dancing Dagger and a Blind on Cloak and Dagger.
Would help any weapon set using the Dagger off-hand massively.

I like your idea about the synergy between #4 and #3 though… That’s actually very interesting. But how would that Mark behave with Sword or Pistol for a main-hand?
Flanking Strike/Larcenous Strike and Shadow Strike are already good in their own way…

Did you know that once upon a time, within a couple of months of the game going live, dancing daggers had its damage reduced by 50% because mesmer clones and ranger pets died and got the players killed fast from 4 spamming?

Yea…except, they later buffed both of those, but forgot to un-nerf dancing daggers, cause….nobody gives a kitten about thief.

Silverbolt.2301:

Vornollo.5182:

(Re-)Improved damage on Dancing Dagger and a Blind on Cloak and Dagger.
Would help any weapon set using the Dagger off-hand massively.

I like your idea about the synergy between #4 and #3 though… That’s actually very interesting. But how would that Mark behave with Sword or Pistol for a main-hand?
Flanking Strike/Larcenous Strike and Shadow Strike are already good in their own way…

Did you know that once upon a time, within a couple of months of the game going live, dancing daggers had its damage reduced by 50% because mesmer clones and ranger pets died and got the players killed fast from 4 spamming?

Yea…except, they later buffed both of those, but forgot to un-nerf dancing daggers, cause….nobody gives a kitten about thief.

No, it wasn’t about ranger pets or clones dying. The actual rangers and mesmers themselves were dying because Dancing Dagger dealt an absurd amount of damage when it bounced back from the clones etc. It wasn’t uncommon to hit someone for 10k+ with this ability, which for obvious reasons is OP.

DeceiverX.8361:

I don’t play engineer for this reason.

Problem with D/D is that people can’t agree on how they want to play it due to its hybrid approach. Power players want/need a changed DB, condi players don’t like CnD and backstab weaving which the set features for power play.

Dancing Dagger can’t get buffed unless it stops bouncing, and will remain continuously pretty terrible, and obviously changes to HS aren’t really a good idea.

Because of the increased Synergies which would makes Thieves more unpredictable?

or

Because of this System making Thieves a more skillful and complex to play and understand class like Enginners with all their Weapon Kits and Toolbelt Skill Synergies ?

However, you have to admit, my suggestion here would make D/D truly unique compared to the other Weapon Sets and with the many Synergies, there would be provided for all sides something, power builds, condition builds, hybrid builds – they all would find among thise Stigma Effects something from that their builds could benefit in the moment of the fight when you attack a foe that you have marked with Assassins Promise with a Stigma, so that for a brief time those Snyergy Effects can improve your skills. Also these Synergy Effects would be really helpful to make absolutely underused and boring skilsl of the Thief directly alot more fun and effectful, because of their Synergies, don’t you think too???

I for once surely would use far more oftenly skills like Haste or Roll for Initiative, or the Traps, if they would provide me with D/D my proposed snyergy effects that would make using these utility skills directly alot more fun and it would provide alot more skillful play, if you can make good usage of these synergy effects and combine them as good as possible together, while making as good as possible constantly usage of them by focusing your attacks on your marked target, making D/D the true weapon set for “Assassins”, whose attacks should be special effected somehow towards enemies they have chosen out as their “marked targets”

Naturally my proposed Stigmas are just pure examples, ANet is free to change the effects with whatever they like, my concept here should just show the basic gameplay that I’d like to see with D/D, os that D/D becomes in gameplay significantly different compared to the other initiative spamfest weapons that have other roles, like CC Control, Condition Pressure/Boon Removal ect. whereas D/D should be in my opinion the unpredictabel tactical trickster of an assassins, which pulls out deadly synergetic effects against targets, when you expect it the least as a compensation therefore that D/D always needs to be at full risk of being in melee combat to be able to deal the most damage, which is even again based on stealth, as only Backstab is your highest burst option that compared to all other burst options of other classes requires good timing and positioning, where the other classes are just only button pressing to burst/meh, and even for this thieves don’t get compensated for having the highest burst damage due to attacking foes defenselessness out of surprise from, because then would cry the half GW2 world instantly again, how OP Thieves are. behind

CreedOfGod.9764:

So in order to compete with the utility that d/p has, I have an idea to make it more of a viable choice.

Since dagger/pistol is able to have an initiation tool, daze on command and stackable steath, something d/d could use is a combo system between two abilities that might make it more on par:

Dagger/Dagger
4th abililty: Dancing Dagger- cripples and applies a mark for X seconds
3rd ability: Death blossom- evades and bleeds nearby foes. When targeting an enemy marked with dancing dagger, shadow step and daze your foe.
5th ability Cloak and dagger: simply increase stealth time and/or vulnerability stacks (to make having to be in melee range more rewarding, especially for glass cannon thieves)

thats a well thought idea. as stealth and spike arent thieves main thing anymore, he needs more shadowsteps. as this is the one thing making thiefs unique.
but u dont need to work the “marked” effect with dancing dagger just go with death blossom. simply make the chain skill of daning dagger work like infiltration signet to the marked target(s). but well, this whole thing wont make any attention to the devs i guess.

D/D is fine due to the condi build it has going for it. I know people here don’t want to hear this but you can’t buff D/D without nerfing the condi build.

So as of right now D/D needs nothing.

Orpheal.8263:

DeceiverX.8361:

I don’t play engineer for this reason.

Problem with D/D is that people can’t agree on how they want to play it due to its hybrid approach. Power players want/need a changed DB, condi players don’t like CnD and backstab weaving which the set features for power play.

Dancing Dagger can’t get buffed unless it stops bouncing, and will remain continuously pretty terrible, and obviously changes to HS aren’t really a good idea.

Because of the increased Synergies which would makes Thieves more unpredictable?

or

Because of this System making Thieves a more skillful and complex to play and understand class like Enginners with all their Weapon Kits and Toolbelt Skill Synergies ?

However, you have to admit, my suggestion here would make D/D truly unique compared to the other Weapon Sets and with the many Synergies, there would be provided for all sides something, power builds, condition builds, hybrid builds – they all would find among thise Stigma Effects something from that their builds could benefit in the moment of the fight when you attack a foe that you have marked with Assassins Promise with a Stigma, so that for a brief time those Snyergy Effects can improve your skills. Also these Synergy Effects would be really helpful to make absolutely underused and boring skilsl of the Thief directly alot more fun and effectful, because of their Synergies, don’t you think too???

Unnecessary complexity in design, however, is not seen as necessarily good design; in my honest opinion (and among many people in game design), a reduced number of skills or rules with a far degree of depth makes games innately more competitive as when all of the pieces are known in advance with a certain degree of predictability, it showcases player skill much more as a measure of thought. The simplicity of the skill kits on the Thief and of the Warrior and core Guardian (before HoT, mind you, where now the design for almost all specs is objectively poor), was what separated the good from the bad players of these respective classes.

The engi and ele have always had fairly low skill ceilings and their rotation-based play doesn’t really do much in terms of requiring more skill, so much as it does require muscle memory for rotations and proper timing on swaps. While this takes skill to do, it is incomparable to the gameplay style of the thief, as it operates on an entirely different set of gameplay skills from most other professions. Strictly speaking, people mostly have their preferences in classes largely due to the preferences in how they play. Making the thief more like the engineer innately and not through a specialization is a big step backwards. I’m not saying I disagree entirely that thieves should be barred from some of these mechanics, but more simply, I disagree that this is the answer to the problem plaguing a specific weapon set, because that weapon set affects the core thief, which is very far from your proposal conceptually.

The problem with D/D is that while all of the skills have a degree of synergy, there are problematic skills from a design perspective. MH dagger is not functional without the stealth from CnD (otherwise D/P is better), and the stealth from CnD is very prone to being blocked/dodged/invuln’ed etc. (which is even more common now with HoT) while the set provides very few defensive benefits. Dancing Dagger can’t be balanced properly unless it undergoes a big design change to stop bouncing, and DB is overpowered in condition build implementations with no other skills on the kit being useful, and on the converse, is not cohesive to the power set’s kit due to the lack of mobility the set has as a result.

If I were given permission to fix D/D, I’d do the following:

• Death Blossom acts as a 600-range evading lunge almost identical to Death’s Charge in controls. Per-hit damage reduced by 50%, gains a final strike at the end of the lunge dealing 3x damage as current per-hit damage. Removed bleeding.

• Dancing Dagger is changed to Fan of Daggers, getting 60% increased damage, no longer bounces, gets improved projectile speed, and simply hits up to three additional nearby targets of the target hit. Additionally inflicts two stacks of torment.

• Dagger Training now additionally to the poison applies 6s bleeding to all attacks made with a dagger as compensation for the removal of the bleeding from DB. This keeps condition builds able to maintain pressure through all of their skills rather than just one, and thus justifies the ability for DB to see a conceptual shift more towards the evade, with different use patterns to optimize it for power and condition play.

• CnD brought down to 5 initiative and applies 7 additional stacks of vulnerability for 2 seconds, for 10/3 falloff to help push power-stab builds a little more over D/P when playing aggressively, as to keep D/P a more defense-oriented set by design (from blinds/interrupts) and D/D a more aggressive sheer-damage set by design, as currently, D/P has favorable burst to D/D from Shadow Shot.

DeceiverX.8361:

• Dancing Dagger is changed to Fan of Daggers, getting 60% increased damage, no longer bounces, gets improved projectile speed, and simply hits up to three additional nearby targets of the target hit. Additionally inflicts two stacks of torment.

i had the same idea a while ago. torment on dancing dagger is very good too. but the dmg shouldnt be much more then trickshot.

I saw it as a compromise to power builds considering right now the per-bounce damage is low, while if it hits the same target again, the damage is quite high per initiative. The bonus damage keeps it good for a ranged finish on power builds while the lack of bouncing keeps it consistent and fair for condition use.

Silverbolt.2301:

Vornollo.5182:

(Re-)Improved damage on Dancing Dagger and a Blind on Cloak and Dagger.
Would help any weapon set using the Dagger off-hand massively.

I like your idea about the synergy between #4 and #3 though… That’s actually very interesting. But how would that Mark behave with Sword or Pistol for a main-hand?
Flanking Strike/Larcenous Strike and Shadow Strike are already good in their own way…

Did you know that once upon a time, within a couple of months of the game going live, dancing daggers had its damage reduced by 50% because mesmer clones and ranger pets died and got the players killed fast from 4 spamming?

Yea…except, they later buffed both of those, but forgot to un-nerf dancing daggers, cause….nobody gives a kitten about thief.

Did you know that I wrote “(Re-)Improved” instead of just “Improved” because I know it used to have much better damage?
Though, as DecieverX pointed out, the damage on it was absurd and did need toning down, but I don’t see any issue with increasing the damage of it again in the current state of the game.

Wait what? I take ONE look in the thief forum and see that people dont think that D/D isnt OP enough? Gosh.

For PvP, it’s good right now because of the low skill ceiling letting people spam evades during condition application via DB. On power, it’s the weakest weapon set and frankly quite weak overall.

Get rid of the fact it currently evades while pumping condition damage and as a compromise buff its net condition access without needing to spam 3 as to make it vulnerable to taking damage, and all is good such that the utility on DB and OH dagger can be improved for power without numerical buffs.

I still want ground target Death Blossom. :[ Off-hand Dagger or Backstab could use some extra Condi dmg effects since it’s nolonger very useful for Power.

The Shadowstep thing could be neat, since fully spec’d condi builds have no swiftness or mobility.

DeceiverX.8361:

Silverbolt.2301:

Vornollo.5182:

(Re-)Improved damage on Dancing Dagger and a Blind on Cloak and Dagger.
Would help any weapon set using the Dagger off-hand massively.

I like your idea about the synergy between #4 and #3 though… That’s actually very interesting. But how would that Mark behave with Sword or Pistol for a main-hand?
Flanking Strike/Larcenous Strike and Shadow Strike are already good in their own way…

Did you know that once upon a time, within a couple of months of the game going live, dancing daggers had its damage reduced by 50% because mesmer clones and ranger pets died and got the players killed fast from 4 spamming?

Yea…except, they later buffed both of those, but forgot to un-nerf dancing daggers, cause….nobody gives a kitten about thief.

No, it wasn’t about ranger pets or clones dying. The actual rangers and mesmers themselves were dying because Dancing Dagger dealt an absurd amount of damage when it bounced back from the clones etc. It wasn’t uncommon to hit someone for 10k+ with this ability, which for obvious reasons is OP.

Silverbolt.2301:

…and got the players killed fast…

It’s okay, I understand that reading comprehension is difficult and one must always try to appear right and very knowledgeable over others.

Btw, you can still hit upwards of 8-10k on zerker builds. Nothing has changed in that regards.

I think D/D is fine where it is, the only thing I’d change would be adding a blind to CnD by default.

Silverbolt.2301:

DeceiverX.8361:

Silverbolt.2301:

Vornollo.5182:

(Re-)Improved damage on Dancing Dagger and a Blind on Cloak and Dagger.
Would help any weapon set using the Dagger off-hand massively.

I like your idea about the synergy between #4 and #3 though… That’s actually very interesting. But how would that Mark behave with Sword or Pistol for a main-hand?
Flanking Strike/Larcenous Strike and Shadow Strike are already good in their own way…

Did you know that once upon a time, within a couple of months of the game going live, dancing daggers had its damage reduced by 50% because mesmer clones and ranger pets died and got the players killed fast from 4 spamming?

Yea…except, they later buffed both of those, but forgot to un-nerf dancing daggers, cause….nobody gives a kitten about thief.

No, it wasn’t about ranger pets or clones dying. The actual rangers and mesmers themselves were dying because Dancing Dagger dealt an absurd amount of damage when it bounced back from the clones etc. It wasn’t uncommon to hit someone for 10k+ with this ability, which for obvious reasons is OP.

Silverbolt.2301:

…and got the players killed fast…

It’s okay, I understand that reading comprehension is difficult and one must always try to appear right and very knowledgeable over others.

Btw, you can still hit upwards of 8-10k on zerker builds. Nothing has changed in that regards.

It’s okay, I understand that opening a sentence by criticizing another’s reading comprehension capability is a pretty common condescending thing to do on the internet in an attempt to make oneself look superior and the other inferior.

Unfortunately, this isn’t a matter of reading comprehension. I deliberately disagreed with what you wrote based on how you wrote it. You can still kill mesmers and rangers by spamming 4 if you dump 16 initiative on it on a glass cannon build and they take the hits, and they still die quickly. Your statement says it was nerfed “because mesmer clones and ranger pets died” as your primary reason grammatically, “and got the players killed fast from 4 spamming” is no different than how it is now; to which I disagreed for why it was nerfed; it got nerfed because it was killing some players like glass thief or ele with one cast, maybe two. Two casts of the same ability in a row is far from spamming, as per the purpose of the initiative system. That’s why it was OP, because it didn’t even need to be spammed; it just killed people, because it had a better coefficient than backstab.

So if your intent was to say that the skill itself was overpowered because it was one-shotting people, and we’re in agreement on that, that would be your writing in which we should be discussing inadequacies, rather than attacking my reading. Please do not criticize my reading comprehension when that is very far from what your post states, and to which I simply clarified why the ability was nerfed, rather than attacking you personally.

Give D/D and P/P their own set of 5 weapon skill so balancing each skill won’t have any direct conflict with other weapon sets. I’ve said this before and I’m saying it again.

The main glaring problem with these two sets are 1) total initiative cost and 2) survivability skills. You can’t make these adjustments without affecting other weapon sets (or vice versa, see the nerfs on HS, CnD, Bodyshot and Black Powder), thus the need for D/D and P/P to have their own set of skills.