Guild Wars 2

“Flanking Strike(s/d 3): This attack is now unblockable.”

I get that their overall goal was to improve sword use, but this feat could have easily been moved to cloak and dagger (/d 5). With the additional buffs to pistol whip, this would of improved FOUR total weapon sets that pretty much have been seen as lack luster, (d/d, s/d, p/d, s/p) flooding the class with build diversity that it has been craving for so long

No, they made the correct skill unblockable, especially with how many blocks there are thrown about with reckless abandon since HoT. They just could have made CnD unblockable in addition to the other changes.

Yeah, S/D 3 needed this badly, especially against revs and scrappers.

Turk.5460:

No, they made the correct skill unblockable, especially with how many blocks there are thrown about with reckless abandon since HoT. They just could have made CnD unblockable in addition to the other changes.

I would whole heartedly welcome those changes, but I doubt anet would dish out that much unblockable to one weapon set, especially if you include basi venom.

CreedOfGod.9764:

Turk.5460:

No, they made the correct skill unblockable, especially with how many blocks there are thrown about with reckless abandon since HoT. They just could have made CnD unblockable in addition to the other changes.

I would whole heartedly welcome those changes, but I doubt anet would dish out that much unblockable to one weapon set, especially if you include basi venom.

A possible solution would be to tie the unblockable aspect of CnD to a traitline that S/D gets very little use out of, like SA.

Or tie unblockable Flanking Strikes to something in Acro, as Condi DD wouldn’t really benefit from unblockable CnD, and Power DD generally doesn’t take Acro.

Turk.5460:

Or tie unblockable Flanking Strikes to something in Acro, as Condi DD wouldn’t really benefit from unblockable CnD, and Power DD generally doesn’t take Acro.

This would work, and while I agree unblockable cnd doesn’t benefit condi d/d, it would benefit more p/d builds.

CreedOfGod.9764:

Turk.5460:

Or tie unblockable Flanking Strikes to something in Acro, as Condi DD wouldn’t really benefit from unblockable CnD, and Power DD generally doesn’t take Acro.

This would work, and while I agree unblockable cnd doesn’t benefit condi d/d, it would benefit more p/d builds.

Honestly with the recent DA poison changes, I’d say P/D doesn’t need cloak and dagger nearly as much as it used to since bleed is more of a cover condi these days.

Power D/D is the only set I’d say needs something changing with now, and as others have said adding unblockable CnD through a trait would be a good solution. That said, deadeye might do something interesting for the spec too, since it’s stealth themed.

CnD is and outdated skill it has no place in the fast placed Elite specs, if it fails u wasted nearly half of your ini pool

D/D power needs DB and CnD changes to be any good.
DB needs its condi moved to other skills and made into a proper gap close/open, and CnD needs its init dropped to 3 and stealth duration dropped to 2s.
Unblockable is sketchy because CnD still has a pretty high coefficient and could pose major issues in respects to not having counterplay.

DeceiverX.8361:

D/D power needs DB and CnD changes to be any good.
DB needs its condi moved to other skills and made into a proper gap close/open, and CnD needs its init dropped to 3 and stealth duration dropped to 2s.
Unblockable is sketchy because CnD still has a pretty high coefficient and could pose major issues in respects to not having counterplay.

Dropping stealth duration means that you won’t be able to even try to bypass the stealth attack cooldown. So no. Unless the stealth attack cooldown is removed as well.

Yeah but CnD could just be re-cast by the end with the whole ordeal costing less than what it does now. Whiffed Stab? Re-cast CnD and the downtime of just sitting in stealth waiting to avoid being revealed is also now lower, too. Two attempts would be a total of four init on a failed stab.

With SA/Rejuv it nets 0 to cast and would last long enough. Anything more than 2s duration and you end up gaining initiative in permastealth with OH dagger if traited for SA, which is obviously busted.

With extra mobility on D/D you’d have a very simple but very initiative-efficient setup with a lot more utility and capacity for consistency without just adding more unblockable damage power creep.

DeceiverX.8361:

Yeah but CnD could just be re-cast by the end with the whole ordeal costing less than what it does now. Whiffed Stab? Re-cast CnD and the downtime of just sitting in stealth waiting to avoid being revealed is also now lower, too. Two attempts would be a total of four init on a failed stab.

With SA/Rejuv it nets 0 to cast and would last long enough. Anything more than 2s duration and you end up gaining initiative in permastealth with OH dagger if traited for SA, which is obviously busted.

‘Just be recast’… um no. Don’t forget that your opponent isn’t sitting idly there and waiting for you to cast. You can watch the D/D video to see what problems D/D faces in general.

ETA: So you mean that reverting DB into a gap closer would change the problems D/D has.. Why wouldn’t I play D/P? It already has all of that.

Unless this patch in particular broke D/D hotboxes I’ve only ever heard of you having an issue. Aside from it being my own fault mis-judging distances, I’ve not had CnD fail for no reason in my several thousand hours on the kit.

The enemy may not be standing idle but you will be in stealth. If they cast aegis, pop it with DDagger. If they’re comboing, disengage. There are so many ways to respond which already need to be utilized when playing D/D and always have.

D/P would still play fundamentally differently, and you’re thinking of only using it aggressively like SS and not having the benefit of the evade. Making DB cover a distance would let the kit have access to gap-opening tools as well. Such a skill could be potent as a source of disengage and in-combat mobility which D/D lacks, and is why it’s not used much in anything but PvE. D/P stays a control-oriented, OOC stealth kit with good engage while D/D ends up able to skirmish and move around the fight a lot more in general with intermittent and more frequent access to shorter stealth and untargetability windows with less init costs to need less reasons to reset.

It would finally give D/D a unique style and identity rather than just being a worse version of D/P.

It’s not about bugs, it’s about what D/D lacks – which you would know would you either play the game or watch the video.

Sorry, but I really don’t have the patience anymore to go through the same stuff over and over just to have the devs copy and paste your suggestions which destroy SA and D/D.

I like you, but you’re a theorycrafter at best, most guys who are on this forum are.

ETA: Just for the record: I’m already using DB as a gap closer – you could increase the range and it would even be more like that – people just need to learn to use it.
The other thing: D/D has been dead way before the June 2015th patch – so even if the guys who did play it and who quit didn’t notice, something with that set was off and that was bugs. Good for you if you’ve never heard of anyone else besides me having problems to hit – but I’m not making it up. Anet watched my last bugs video about 100 times (best stalker tool: youtube) and they did change some stuff – the most noticable was increasing the timeframe for the CnD and Steal combo which the havoc guy never used. And since most of you never had any videos showing you play I tend to believe that it was a general bug affecting everybody. And if this sounds as if I’m kittened it might be because I am – I’m so sick of having to fight you guys instead of pulling the same string.

ETA²: The miss bug appeared around the patch in February 2015, got even worse in June 2015. And it’s also dependend on lags which wvw never is free from.

Turk.5460:

CreedOfGod.9764:

Turk.5460:

No, they made the correct skill unblockable, especially with how many blocks there are thrown about with reckless abandon since HoT. They just could have made CnD unblockable in addition to the other changes.

I would whole heartedly welcome those changes, but I doubt anet would dish out that much unblockable to one weapon set, especially if you include basi venom.

A possible solution would be to tie the unblockable aspect of CnD to a traitline that S/D gets very little use out of, like SA.

Or tie unblockable Flanking Strikes to something in Acro, as Condi DD wouldn’t really benefit from unblockable CnD, and Power DD generally doesn’t take Acro.

Agreed, could have been a minor trait that would have made any of these skill unblockable or a trait as well.

still. the new buff’s to sword is nice, liking the 1/4 second on infiltration’s return a lot.

Ehhh. SA has been used mostly by P/D since Rending Shade got added since Sneak Attack pretty much guarantees the boon rip, and since the initial acro shakeup, the small pool of players using D/D have primarily gone DA/Acro/DrD as it works nicely for staying alive since most of the weapon skills weren’t exactly heavily-used. It’s also going back to tying specific answers and fixes to weapon sets to traits and trait lines rather than improving core functionality of the weapon itself, which I’m not too keen on, nor are many others.

Persistent unblockable is also devoid of a lot of counterplay. Could pretty much kill power DH by pressing 5 a few times depending on your stats which is kinda silly imho.

Yes, you’re talking about after SA was destroyed for D/D. It wasn’t for D/P which was the problem when coupled with SA.

Yes, I’d love to see more set related stuff tied to traitlines as well, if possible – one of them is CiS – which is completely overpowered in your opinion and which anet seems to share – if you both were familiar with pvp you’d know that it would make D/D more viable but not OP.

CnD needs a one drop in INI and a 1 second add to stealth , not a takeaway from stealth duration. It harder to pull off and should be rewarded with longer stealth , not a shorter one then the ease of use d/p allows. If a thief manages to CnD off one of mine it way to easy to avoid the followup attack for 2 seconds.

D/D (power) does pretty well out of the CS changes (unless you were the one trick pony signet might build). I am not too keen on the CIS change as of yet. CIS works better for stealth campers which D/d power does not do. IF CnD allowed longer time in stealth CIS might become more useful to d/d power.

The problem with CIS and the new addition when it comes to D/D power is that if you manage to CnD and stealth with CIS traited, the blind is already protecting you to a great extent so it unclear how the added immunity to crits helps.

The blind is one hit. It’s ‘magic’ against other thieves who are in stealth and are being hit with the stealth attack cooldown – but how many weaponskills in game are really one hit – besides auto attack?

And like I said in another thread: I have more problems with conditions that with hits – which is another thing: D/D is melee, they wade through all kinds of AoE and have to get back and forth without having anything but utility skills and steal as a port. Cripple is a huge disadvantage and with that SE comes into play again.

And if you boil it all down: All of us besides D/P players are trying to get back what we’ve had 2 years ago – so I guess anets best bet to make the game more balanced again is to look at how it has been 2+ years ago. And even then only few played D/D – even when they had CiS unnerfed in master.

Jana.6831:

The blind is one hit. It’s ‘magic’ against other thieves who are in stealth and are being hit with the stealth attack cooldown – but how many weaponskills in game are really one hit – besides auto attack?

And like I said in another thread: I have more problems with conditions that with hits – which is another thing: D/D is melee, they wade through all kinds of AoE and have to get back and forth without having anything but utility skills and steal as a port. Cripple is a huge disadvantage and with that SE comes into play again.

And if you boil it all down: All of us besides D/P players are trying to get back what we’ve had 2 years ago – so I guess anets best bet to make the game more balanced again is to look at how it has been 2+ years ago. And even then only few played D/D – even when they had CiS unnerfed in master.

Well than another option MIGHT be to add this to CIS while dropping the “can not be critted trait”.

On achieving stealth gain 2 seconds of resistance. This would work on cripples and all CC along with giving breathing space for the damage ticks off damging. (2 seconds might be too high).

Something more needs ot be done to make it more competiitive with d/p and I am not too keen on deceivers ideas.

If you increase the duration of stealth on CnD and decrease the init cost you end up being able to gain initiative camping stealth. That’s not healthy design for the greater part of GW2.

Jana, if your problem is getting hit and needing to “wade through all kinds of AoE and have to get back and forth without having anything but utility skills and steal as a port,” then my suggestion about DB above effectively fixes this and nullifies your claimed need for CiS. SE is already one of the best DoT cleanses in the game because it ignores cover conditions. If you’re having issues there there’s nothing else to say, because most major condi bombs come from multi-hit targeted abilities or a prolonged period of time. Or you’re getting massively zerged down and lack guardians, in which case yeah, you’ll die. So will anything else that isn’t a guardian or running mass resistance that managed to not get stripped or corrupted.

CiS wasn’t a good trait and to be totally honest all it ever did was perpetuate the problems that SA promoted at the time: it was overly-punishing for no apparent reason when you were already in a favorable position and it was basically useless when it wasn’t saving your life. Given the nature of D/D at the start of the fight for most builds, it by default puts you in a favorable position 90% of the time. Quite frankly, I feel kitten ed accomplished when I backstab a stealthed thief, and respect other thieves who are able to do the same back to me. That’s counterplay.

D/D is very obviously less powerful than D/P due to its skills just not having the necessary utility the thief demands to function well while not really gaining anything in respects to damage. It’s not about traits or damage or CiS or anything, but simply that unless the kit has more to offer via mobility and the likes, it just won’t compete.

I’d say SA needs a conceptual overhaul to get it in line with that the profession does, but DE is going to have fantastic synergy with it to really abuse its promoted passive playstyle of camping stealth.

Just saying, if you play correctly, signets wasn’t a one-trick build for WvW (nobody wants the fight presence in sPvP and the damage isn’t worth the investment mathematically there given the inherent need to +1 ss often as possible). It runs a stunbreak, extra init regen, and a 1200 range no cast unblockable AoE blind with one offensive utility. Get rid of shortbow and run S/D as secondary and it can go toe-to-toe with nearly anything but thr cheesiest of cheese. The weak link of the build is and was the OH dagger. D/D as a kit isn’t useful enough to stand on its own.

People who popped four signets for 20 might and dove as glass cannons while making YouTube montages for huge numbers are playing the build stupidly and give it a stigma. It’s why I don’t have videos, Jana. I don’t record every second of my play, and I don’t go trying to make plays to get them on film just to boast about numbers. The real gameplay is reactionary and in the longer fights which you can’t pause to start recording.

D/D needs utility. I don’t think tying it to traits or just making CnD unblockable is the answer, and there’s no good way of adjusting CnD without breaking it unless you either rework the whole skill entirely, or nerf SA more (bad idea) to prevent abuse cases of matchups that do not have counterplay.

CnD cost is 6 ini. Camping stealth to garner INI would require first and foremost traiting SA and Shadows rejuv.

This would give 5 seconds stealth. which would generate at most 1 ini via rejuv.

5 ini -1 ini is a net loss of 4 ini no damage done outisde the original CnD . There is no way d/d will use CND to camp stealth to garner INI even if ini gained was 2 during that period he still losing .

This is also predicated on achieving stealth via CND in the first place. One miss and you are 5 ini lost for nothing. Trying to use CnD to camp stealth is not viable nor would it be under the suggestion I made.

Base init regen is 1 per second. If you cut the cost to five and extend it baseline to 4s, a thief in SA will gain 5s of base stealth from Meld with Shadows and then regen an additional 1 initiative for being in stealth after 3s.

I find chaining CnD far from impossible against most targets that I’d need to do so with. It’s really just FA eles, thieves from mobility, and DHs from chain block which are tough to chain stealth indefinitely on. Add a stealth utility skill to the mix and it’s not that difficult to do.

So land one and miss the next and you still are down only 4 init.

If it were really so difficult to land CnD, why vouch for a less-consistent and still-costly cost to stealth?

DeceiverX.8361:

Base init regen is 1 per second. If you cut the cost to five and extend it baseline to 4s, a thief in SA will gain 5s of base stealth from Meld with Shadows and then regen an additional 1 initiative for being in stealth after 3s.

I find chaining CnD far from impossible against most targets that I’d need to do so with. It’s really just FA eles, thieves from mobility, and DHs from chain block which are tough to chain stealth indefinitely on. Add a stealth utility skill to the mix and it’s not that difficult to do.

So land one and miss the next and you still are down only 4 init.

If it were really so difficult to land CnD, why vouch for a less-consistent and still-costly cost to stealth?

Base INI regen happens whether you are stealthed or not. You do not increase that base regen in stealth. You can not use CND to park stealth as you are still burning off any faster then it coming in and doing little real damage with that CnD.

if you come out of stealth early you get a revealed meaning you can not chain stealth right away in any case. Your camping stealth is a non issue.

The proposal I made does NOT increase ini regen given it does not hit 6 seconds. Whther thief is stealthed or not at range or dodging he will still get base regen.

The reason it harder to land CnD is not so much blocks and dodges, it because you need a target to Ini from and they can drop AOE, This is unlike d/p which can be done at range and stacked consecutively.

babazhook.6805:

The reason it harder to land CnD is not so much blocks and dodges, it because you need a target to Ini from and they can drop AOE, This is unlike d/p which can be done at range and stacked consecutively.

True, but if you’re seen stacking stealth, AOEs can be dropped regardless. The same goes for CnD, as in if you port in from a distance with CnD precasted the hitbox should land. The difference is d/p has practically gaurenteed method of stackable stealth, while CnD requires melee range, isn’t stackable and is denied by almost every passive in HoT elites. This is where the tradeoff for melee unblockable stealth vs higher ini cost but stackable stealth come into play.

As far as reducing costs/increasing stealth duration, i do not think this would be necessary since equipping shadow rejuv. will already give you high enough regen to be perma stealth if you time CnD right. lowering cost/increase duration will only allow non shadow arts builds to perma stealth, which would defeat the purpose of that spec.

I do like your suggestion of added a second or two of resistance, since that could help with being in the fight, but that would still require the skill to land in the first place of course.

What do you think about DB adding aoe blind similar to the one of revenant staff #3 instead of bleeds?

babazhook.6805:

DeceiverX.8361:

Base init regen is 1 per second. If you cut the cost to five and extend it baseline to 4s, a thief in SA will gain 5s of base stealth from Meld with Shadows and then regen an additional 1 initiative for being in stealth after 3s.

I find chaining CnD far from impossible against most targets that I’d need to do so with. It’s really just FA eles, thieves from mobility, and DHs from chain block which are tough to chain stealth indefinitely on. Add a stealth utility skill to the mix and it’s not that difficult to do.

So land one and miss the next and you still are down only 4 init.

If it were really so difficult to land CnD, why vouch for a less-consistent and still-costly cost to stealth?

Base INI regen happens whether you are stealthed or not. You do not increase that base regen in stealth. You can not use CND to park stealth as you are still burning off any faster then it coming in and doing little real damage with that CnD.

if you come out of stealth early you get a revealed meaning you can not chain stealth right away in any case. Your camping stealth is a non issue.

The proposal I made does NOT increase ini regen given it does not hit 6 seconds. Whther thief is stealthed or not at range or dodging he will still get base regen.

The reason it harder to land CnD is not so much blocks and dodges, it because you need a target to Ini from and they can drop AOE, This is unlike d/p which can be done at range and stacked consecutively.

I don’t think you are understanding the math behind Meld, base initiative regen, and Rejuv with what you proposed.

I also don’t think you understand how OH dagger works to enable permanent stealth uptime. It can be done without being revealed.

You can also dodge during a good portion of the CnD cast animation and still get the stealth, and as mentioned, you’re going to be hit by the AoE’s regardless, to which if it’s a condi bomb SE will cleanse, or you can just Shadowstep/return into a dodge animation and not get ticked by the AoE even if it’s persistent.

CreedOfGod.9764:

I do like your suggestion of added a second or two of resistance, since that could help with being in the fight, but that would still require the skill to land in the first place of course.

It just seems rather unnecessary. That’s a crazy strong boon to have on what’s effectively no cooldown, or when looking at the Deadeye, revealed could be cleansed twice over, so you could gain multiple seconds of revealed even without boon duration consecutively.

bluri.2653:

What do you think about DB adding aoe blind similar to the one of revenant staff #3 instead of bleeds?

I’m not entirely sure how much this really helps, and again, it gets into the counterplay argument. You end up with no punish frames at the end for CC’ing from a melee combatant, yet the kit ends up still being just as bad if engaged on from a distance where the blind can’t reach and the kit lacks engage save for steal, which depending on the foe may already be on cooldown (fighting staff druid and the likes for example which easily kites out D/D).

I’d be down for it basically being Death’s Charge, though I’d much rather have the evade than the blind :P

DeceiverX.8361:

babazhook.6805:

DeceiverX.8361:

Base init regen is 1 per second. If you cut the cost to five and extend it baseline to 4s, a thief in SA will gain 5s of base stealth from Meld with Shadows and then regen an additional 1 initiative for being in stealth after 3s.

I find chaining CnD far from impossible against most targets that I’d need to do so with. It’s really just FA eles, thieves from mobility, and DHs from chain block which are tough to chain stealth indefinitely on. Add a stealth utility skill to the mix and it’s not that difficult to do.

So land one and miss the next and you still are down only 4 init.

If it were really so difficult to land CnD, why vouch for a less-consistent and still-costly cost to stealth?

Base INI regen happens whether you are stealthed or not. You do not increase that base regen in stealth. You can not use CND to park stealth as you are still burning off any faster then it coming in and doing little real damage with that CnD.

if you come out of stealth early you get a revealed meaning you can not chain stealth right away in any case. Your camping stealth is a non issue.

The proposal I made does NOT increase ini regen given it does not hit 6 seconds. Whther thief is stealthed or not at range or dodging he will still get base regen.

The reason it harder to land CnD is not so much blocks and dodges, it because you need a target to Ini from and they can drop AOE, This is unlike d/p which can be done at range and stacked consecutively.

I don’t think you are understanding the math behind Meld, base initiative regen, and Rejuv with what you proposed.

I also don’t think you understand how OH dagger works to enable permanent stealth uptime. It can be done without being revealed.

You can also dodge during a good portion of the CnD cast animation and still get the stealth, and as mentioned, you’re going to be hit by the AoE’s regardless, to which if it’s a condi bomb SE will cleanse, or you can just Shadowstep/return into a dodge animation and not get ticked by the AoE even if it’s persistent.

CreedOfGod.9764:

I do like your suggestion of added a second or two of resistance, since that could help with being in the fight, but that would still require the skill to land in the first place of course.

It just seems rather unnecessary. That’s a crazy strong boon to have on what’s effectively no cooldown, or when looking at the Deadeye, revealed could be cleansed twice over, so you could gain multiple seconds of revealed even without boon duration consecutively.

bluri.2653:

What do you think about DB adding aoe blind similar to the one of revenant staff #3 instead of bleeds?

I’m not entirely sure how much this really helps, and again, it gets into the counterplay argument. You end up with no punish frames at the end for CC’ing from a melee combatant, yet the kit ends up still being just as bad if engaged on from a distance where the blind can’t reach and the kit lacks engage save for steal, which depending on the foe may already be on cooldown (fighting staff druid and the likes for example which easily kites out D/D).

I’d be down for it basically being Death’s Charge, though I’d much rather have the evade than the blind :P

But you are not accomplishing anything stealthed. This unlike the old trapper thief which could use those traps and other things to do damage. INI regen will NOT go up while stealthed. Base regen is not affected and 5 seconds is not six. You can chain Cnd stealth NOW too. if you want to do damge you are going to have to come out sometime.

bluri.2653:

What do you think about DB adding aoe blind similar to the one of revenant staff #3 instead of bleeds?

CiS in its former form would be sufficient, I guess, just that the devs seem to think it’s completely overpowered wheras it isn’t. Why add more blind to something if you completely deny it in trait form, wheras every second thief skill in game has it anyway?!

DeceiverX.8361:

I find chaining CnD far from impossible against most targets that I’d need to do so with. It’s really just FA eles, thieves from mobility, and DHs from chain block which are tough to chain stealth indefinitely on. Add a stealth utility skill to the mix and it’s not that difficult to do.

Players have the ability to move quite a lot, to put CC AoE down and so on – it’s not that easy to get to your target without a port. Just throwing this in your discussion.

ETA: And in general – don’t forget that D/P is still overpowered and needs to be nerfed (just like DrD – curious what will happen to the current elites with the next expansion). So if talking about ini regen and so on: that can be nerfed to on the same time bring D/P down a notch.