Guild Wars 2

The nerfs of the thief’s survivability are too much when compared to the power creep of the rest of the game.

Please un-nerf our defensive traits so we can outplay our opponents again…..getting annoying being hard countered by just about every class in the kitten game.

Also can we get a Dev who actually knows wtf the thief traits are? Watching that Ready Up was the most painful experience of my GW2 career.

p.s. please give me Karl’s twitter so i can blow it up

kthx

Yeah, i watched that also, he was probably assigned to thief, and still has no clue basicly haha

If they threw thieves a bone, the QQ from other classes would be endless. They can’t do it. We are the scape goat of the game.

Cynz.9437:

If they threw thieves a bone, the QQ from other classes would be endless. They can’t do it. We are the scape goat of the game.

so they screw one class to make everyone else happy?
well gg
as long as rangers are complaining that their longbow isn’t strong enough atm i don’t know what to say anymore…

Stop complaining & playing squishy builds. No wonder you die all the time. All classes including thieves will down you if it hits you. kitten it, why thieve players cant be innovative? Here.. New thieve guide: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEnar62Impo

why are so many thieves relying on signets?
there good for one burst, if you miss it your screwed.
@ vieux that build in the vid is ok at best, the only thing i aggree with is the amulet tho
But it’s at least a step in the right direction ^^

DHawk.2687:

why are so many thieves relying on signets?
there good for one burst, if you miss it your screwed.
@ vieux that build in the vid is ok at best, the only thing i aggree with is the amulet tho
But it’s at least a step in the right direction ^^

Well that’s my hole point. there are builds out there for many playstyle. but remember, unless you hit & perma stealth all the time, you cant play squishies. & they are thieve builds that are hard hitters as well as sustain. I just finished playing vs this team & that thief.. oh man! outch! hurts… the guy had a good build & had skill’s to use it.

ps: remember: thieves got to stay up on there toes for now on. theres no more mindless zombie button squash mash.

Vieux P.1238:

DHawk.2687:

why are so many thieves relying on signets?
there good for one burst, if you miss it your screwed.
@ vieux that build in the vid is ok at best, the only thing i aggree with is the amulet tho
But it’s at least a step in the right direction ^^

Well that’s my hole point. there are builds out there for many playstyle. but remember, unless you hit & perma stealth all the time, you cant play squishies. & they are thieve builds that are hard hitters as well as sustain. I just finished playing vs this team & that thief.. oh man! outch! hurts… the guy had a good build & had skill’s to use it.

ps: remember: thieves got to stay up on there toes for now on. theres no more mindless zombie button squash mash.

What weaponset did he used?

Gabriell.4856:

Vieux P.1238:

DHawk.2687:

why are so many thieves relying on signets?
there good for one burst, if you miss it your screwed.
@ vieux that build in the vid is ok at best, the only thing i aggree with is the amulet tho
But it’s at least a step in the right direction ^^

Well that’s my hole point. there are builds out there for many playstyle. but remember, unless you hit & perma stealth all the time, you cant play squishies. & they are thieve builds that are hard hitters as well as sustain. I just finished playing vs this team & that thief.. oh man! outch! hurts… the guy had a good build & had skill’s to use it.

ps: remember: thieves got to stay up on there toes for now on. theres no more mindless zombie button squash mash.

What weaponset did he used?

I dont remmeber & i should of asked his build. but any how you thieves players need to test builds & freaking practice. Cuz more & more players are getting better & skilled. So stop the zombie mashing.

Vieux P.1238:

Gabriell.4856:

Vieux P.1238:

DHawk.2687:

why are so many thieves relying on signets?
there good for one burst, if you miss it your screwed.
@ vieux that build in the vid is ok at best, the only thing i aggree with is the amulet tho
But it’s at least a step in the right direction ^^

Well that’s my hole point. there are builds out there for many playstyle. but remember, unless you hit & perma stealth all the time, you cant play squishies. & they are thieve builds that are hard hitters as well as sustain. I just finished playing vs this team & that thief.. oh man! outch! hurts… the guy had a good build & had skill’s to use it.

ps: remember: thieves got to stay up on there toes for now on. theres no more mindless zombie button squash mash.

What weaponset did he used?

I dont remmeber & i should of asked his build. but any how you thieves players need to test builds & freaking practice. Cuz more & more players are getting better & skilled. So stop the zombie mashing.

I have never “zombie mashed” as my thief. I spent countless hours theorycrafting and testing builds both meta, off meta, gimmick, anything you can think of. Thieves have always been high skill cap (except possibly dire condi builds) and as the easiest class to burst down in the game, we rely on constant awareness and active defenses.

Our evasion has been totally gutted, there are more hard counters to stealth, stealth traits were nerfed, and our most viable build (and I’ve tested a lot) makes us very squishy so if we don’t insta kill you we’re basically toast unless we play at an insane skill level.

Comparatively mesmers have easier access to stealth, safer burst, and warriors can faceroll with rampage, ranger still just presses 2 for an insta kill on zerk thieves, guardians laugh off our damage while burning us down in seconds, eles 1v4 without even thinking, just follow rotations.

You can certainly succeed as a thief due to our awesome mechanics, but with our survival nerfs a thief must be god like to compete with other professions.

Besides that, most of our other builds are seriously lacking. Condi traits are very lackluster, S/D, D/D and P/P are just not good compared to D/P. Our best traits force us into burst, with venoms being the only OK alternative, but only when you’re with someone else. You can certainly run other builds if you like, but you must be extremely skilled. We have variety, but most of it is just not good enough.

Valkyrie ammy isn’t bad. It’s not like this is new. Problem is that you don’t have the dps to take someone down I between backstabs. Literally your only source of damage is backstab…

If u play squishy thief you just need to stay out of team fights or literally off point to avoid cleave.

swinsk.6410:

Valkyrie ammy isn’t bad. It’s not like this is new. Problem is that you don’t have the dps to take someone down I between backstabs. Literally your only source of damage is backstab…

If u play squishy thief you just need to stay out of team fights or literally off point to avoid cleave.

that’s not true, you just need to know how to adjust the build

Vieux P.1238:

Stop complaining & playing squishy builds. No wonder you die all the time. All classes including thieves will down you if it hits you. kitten it, why thieve players cant be innovative? Here.. New thieve guide: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEnar62Impo

tl/dr: terrible build for team pvp, get actually good yourself before trying to tell others what to do and pretend to be innovative.

- ogre is terrible as it gives you out and any smart player would spam where dog is standing
- sigil of force is not so great because to maximize it’s effect you actually need to be constantly attacking, i don’t see it happening in pvp where thief job is to down someone quickly and not to dps dummy
- sigil of fire is only good if you cleave, you want single burst for pvp so air is actually better on dagger/x
- runs crit sigils but doesn’t use any crit from amy = waste of sigils; also ferocity is worthless if you can’t crit
- not sure how valk amy makes thief bulky when maradeur amy brings thief to 17k and has way better dmg stats; extra 3k is laughable difference for huge dmg los
- you say in your guide that your job is to ounumber and kill someone; except the typical dp build with marauder amy +crits does that job better/faster, gets faster to points, actually probably lives longer due to extra mobility/stun break (see shs, withdraw). Why bring “bruiser” thief that gets insta gibbed anyway, when you can as well bring bruiser ele that does that job way better?
- also running HiS with SE is kind of silly, you already have condi cleanse from SE and possibly from signet; HiS is long CD and is easy to interrupt; withdraw would be way better given that youz already invested in 2 defensive traits
- you talk a lot about backcapping, +1 on points etc. but compared to common dp teamq build (trickery, pack runes) you are actually extremely slow
- those might stacks are negletable as common dp teamq build probably gets just as many via bountiful/pack runes etc.
- your build has close to no team support (besides SR for teammates); i don’t see how you are useful to anyone on team
- no point in trickery means less ini, which means less stealth (less use of SE) and less dazes when you actually need them to interrupt heals/stomps etc.; once again useless for team
- no stab interrupt either = once again no team support
- you showcase how much dmg you take in team fight and the joke is the common team build can take as much really while being more useful

I can sum up the build (compraed to common team pvp build) as:
- no team support
- still low surivival
- low dmg
- low CC
- low moblity

The only reason to use it if you are keyboard turner, clicker, can’t avoid red circles to save your life, don’t know what to do and expect your team to carry you hard.

This build absolutely doesn’t give any answer to thief woes in pvp, it is terrible in team pvp enviroment and any half decent opponent would nuke you before you can even blink.

Cynz.9437:

Snip

Good analysis of the downsides of the build.

Not that there is anything wrong with trying out new builds. But when it comes to thief, a lot of the builds that are meta are meta for a reason, they do the job that’s required for thieves the best.

And in all honestly, good positioning and counter pressure >>>> more hp from valk. If you’re dying a lot to cleave you’re playing thief wrong oh so wrong.

Helly.2597:

Cynz.9437:

Snip

Good analysis of the downsides of the build.

Not that there is anything wrong with trying out new builds. But when it comes to thief, a lot of the builds that are meta are meta for a reason, they do the job that’s required for thieves the best.

they don’t in my opinion, they are just the best for the ppl that do metabattle
doesn’t mean it’s the best

DHawk.2687:

they don’t in my opinion, they are just the best for the ppl that do metabattle
doesn’t mean it’s the best

Then feel free to continue playing the game how you see fit. But from my experience playing this game, the builds that have been tested and tested by the top tier players in competitive settings are going to be more effective for the thief role than the build that some guy just dreamed up and thinks is good.

Helly.2597:

DHawk.2687:

they don’t in my opinion, they are just the best for the ppl that do metabattle
doesn’t mean it’s the best

Then feel free to continue playing the game how you see fit. But from my experience playing this game, the builds that have been tested and tested by the top tier players in competitive settings are going to be more effective for the thief role than the build that some guy just dreamed up and thinks is good.

well considering that a build is always best with the guy who came up with it,
i outlpay so many meta thieves with my dd build, i have no need for meta

you should encurage ppl to play meta and don’t even try to make your own build

I think they tried to throw alot of bones at us,but they got confused with sticks :P

Cynz.9437:

Vieux P.1238:

Stop complaining & playing squishy builds. No wonder you die all the time. All classes including thieves will down you if it hits you. kitten it, why thieve players cant be innovative? Here.. New thieve guide: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEnar62Impo

tl/dr: terrible build for team pvp, get actually good yourself before trying to tell others what to do and pretend to be innovative.

- ogre is terrible as it gives you out and any smart player would spam where dog is standing
- sigil of force is not so great because to maximize it’s effect you actually need to be constantly attacking, i don’t see it happening in pvp where thief job is to down someone quickly and not to dps dummy
- sigil of fire is only good if you cleave, you want single burst for pvp so air is actually better on dagger/x
- runs crit sigils but doesn’t use any crit from amy = waste of sigils; also ferocity is worthless if you can’t crit
- not sure how valk amy makes thief bulky when maradeur amy brings thief to 17k and has way better dmg stats; extra 3k is laughable difference for huge dmg los
- you say in your guide that your job is to ounumber and kill someone; except the typical dp build with marauder amy +crits does that job better/faster, gets faster to points, actually probably lives longer due to extra mobility/stun break (see shs, withdraw). Why bring “bruiser” thief that gets insta gibbed anyway, when you can as well bring bruiser ele that does that job way better?
- also running HiS with SE is kind of silly, you already have condi cleanse from SE and possibly from signet; HiS is long CD and is easy to interrupt; withdraw would be way better given that youz already invested in 2 defensive traits
- you talk a lot about backcapping, +1 on points etc. but compared to common dp teamq build (trickery, pack runes) you are actually extremely slow
- those might stacks are negletable as common dp teamq build probably gets just as many via bountiful/pack runes etc.
- your build has close to no team support (besides SR for teammates); i don’t see how you are useful to anyone on team
- no point in trickery means less ini, which means less stealth (less use of SE) and less dazes when you actually need them to interrupt heals/stomps etc.; once again useless for team
- no stab interrupt either = once again no team support
- you showcase how much dmg you take in team fight and the joke is the common team build can take as much really while being more useful

I can sum up the build (compraed to common team pvp build) as:
- no team support
- still low surivival
- low dmg
- low CC
- low moblity

The only reason to use it if you are keyboard turner, clicker, can’t avoid red circles to save your life, don’t know what to do and expect your team to carry you hard.

This build absolutely doesn’t give any answer to thief woes in pvp, it is terrible in team pvp enviroment and any half decent opponent would nuke you before you can even blink.

^^^
QFT

@Vieux P

Yep, Cynz is pretty much correct. 3k hp over mauraders amulet is 1.5 auto attacks or about an extra 1.5 seconds of condi pressure. I will keep complaining about it because I’ve tried stuff like this and soldiers amulet since the patch, and for the most part they don’t have enough pressure to put people on the defensive in PvP. You end up initiative starved and evade starved without the continuous blocks, CC, protection, and heals available to those classes typically thought of as bruisers. Also the long term condi removal is still pretty pathetic outside of stealth and building into stealth means you slowly lose ground on the point cap. It’s not like thieves haven’t been trying new things, everything is just mediocre right now, except for damage, but even that is not anything special and pretty risky to deliver when compared to other professions.

I’ve been personally playing my staff ele a lot more recently, and there’s been so many team fights lately where thieves appear in downstate when no one knew they were there initially because of all the incidental AoE damage flying around now.

DHawk.2687:

well considering that a build is always best with the guy who came up with it,
i outlpay so many meta thieves with my dd build, i have no need for meta

you should encurage ppl to play meta and don’t even try to make your own build

Well the first statement isn’t true. You’re just emotionally attached to it. I’ve played every thief build at some point and come up with some effective builds that I never see. But you claiming your build is the best is laughable.

Valk Ammie? Really? That’s one of the amulets I look at and just think “Why? Why is this even a thing?” I guess maybe before with traits tied to stats you could use some sigils and runes to make up for the loss of critical chance but ferocity without perception is like a screen door on a submarine. If you want some sort of bruiser build got with Marauders and Wurm runes to give more vitality and ferocity to what Marauders already offers.

T raw.4658:

p.s. please give me Karl’s twitter so i can blow it up

Karl is the ONLY dev that i know that plays thief, willingly or not, he is the only one that has publicly assumed to play the profession.

Cynz.9437:

If they threw thieves a bone, the QQ from other classes would be endless. They can’t do it. We are the scape goat of the game.

If they threw thieves a bone, they might just kill the thief with it so… they better not!

Shadow.1345:

Valk Ammie? Really? That’s one of the amulets I look at and just think “Why? Why is this even a thing?” I guess maybe before with traits tied to stats you could use some sigils and runes to make up for the loss of critical chance but ferocity without perception is like a screen door on a submarine. If you want some sort of bruiser build got with Marauders and Wurm runes to give more vitality and ferocity to what Marauders already offers.

Well it can work with hidden killer but then backstab is basically your only damage. You can also run intelligence sigils, but if you use SB you aren’t as likely to swap for damage dealing purposes. So yeah it doesn’t sound great. The hope would be near insta kills on the backstab but then you don’t need the defensive stat anyway, and you also give up no quarter for HK, which hurts your damage even more.

I watched more of the video….. pretty much every encounter goes “I was fighting and getting killed so I stealthed up and ran.” While back capping is useful, if you’re not fighting anyone, why invest in defensive gear/traits? Instead, you could build like this and either burst or run. For the most part, he didn’t have enough condi clear to keep up with condi classes, so it seems to me you shouldn’t try to have an extended fight with them. Burst, and if that doesn’t work, run. (With the linked build you could swap for wurm runes too to lose power but gain health and 10% more crit damage).

My problem is that our defensive lines are mediocre at best now in an extended fight.

u can t stay in stealth for too much in pvp.. u are a weight for your team.. in wvw it s a cool build, but in pvp i prefer gank, burst and flee.
and, like said before, 3k of life more than marauder is not worth, cause ur dps will drop drastically
don t wanna cry on others professions, but the real problem is the absolute lack of any sort of protection, aegis or stability.. warriors can reach 8 secs of invulnerability.. guardians can do more or less the same thing and burn u to death
mesmer can go stealth more than thief, having good boons
ele has every boof anet created
engi too has more defensive stuff than us

they should low the line down, not adding boons to other profession, or one day every profession will be the same.. every one will have all boons, will shot down everything ecc..

starting to stealth, it should be our prerogative.. instead seems it s a mesmer stuff..
ranger too has it, but has 1 kd, 1 fear, 1 immobilize and the win botton
don t wanna talk about the warrior’s rampage

am i miss something??

N.B.: i really enjoy thief, and i have a good score, but i guess because i don t always play good players.. even on the paper we haven t much chance to win against some professions, we have to gank and outnumber foes

Random thought for Hidden Killer. What if it also granted a +50% crit chance while revealed (in addition to 100% crit chance from stealth). This would be on par with some of the other classes’ traits like Death Perception and Unsuspecting Foe.

Maugetarr.6823:

Random thought for Hidden Killer. What if it also granted a +50% crit chance while revealed (in addition to 100% crit chance from stealth). This would be on par with some of the other classes’ traits like Death Perception and Unsuspecting Foe.

It’d be OP as hell, just with Marauder amulet we have 54% base chance, that’d mean 100% uptime of every hit critting.

Galandil.9641:

Maugetarr.6823:

Random thought for Hidden Killer. What if it also granted a +50% crit chance while revealed (in addition to 100% crit chance from stealth). This would be on par with some of the other classes’ traits like Death Perception and Unsuspecting Foe.

It’d be OP as hell, just with Marauder amulet we have 54% base chance, that’d mean 100% uptime of every hit critting.

Only while you’re revealed, and you’re honestly most of the way there if you ever pick up no quarter since you basically always have 20% more crit chance from fury. You’re already riding at a 94% crit chance with Marauder’s, pack runes, signet of agility, and fury. For high crit builds you’d be adding 6-14% crit chance at the cost of 250 ferocity from NQ. For low crit builds you’d actually have access to a way to crit (for build diversity).

Edit: For comparison

Maugetarr.6823:

Random thought for Hidden Killer. What if it also granted a +50% crit chance while revealed (in addition to 100% crit chance from stealth). This would be on par with some of the other classes’ traits like Death Perception and Unsuspecting Foe.

No I’d rather not have an easy button for critical hits because someone didn’t want to put Perception into their build.

Maugetarr.6823:

Only while you’re revealed, and you’re honestly most of the way there if you ever pick up no quarter since you basically always have 20% more crit chance from fury. You’re already riding at a 94% crit chance with Marauder’s, pack runes, signet of agility, and fury. For high crit builds you’d be adding 6-14% crit chance at the cost of 250 ferocity from NQ. For low crit builds you’d actually have access to a way to crit (for build diversity).

Edit: For comparison

The problem is that, with a SINGLE trait (with the change you proposed), we could run something like this:

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAoal0MhSnY3TwwJw/EHwE1uDWuB1nGnRboTgAIDA-TJBBAByXGAgHAQR7PEwJAAA

1) Base Power 2405, which means the same as the build that you posted PLUS 6 stacks of might – we could get rid of Signets of Power and go for Flawless Strike (risky) or just keep SoP to reach 2585 when activating the signet (more, in effect, when needed since it’s kitten’s Signet);
2) More damage with sure crit on Air Sigil every 3 seconds (that means that in a backstab + revealed rotation we get to add twice the dmg from Air Sigil);
3) 208% crit dmg instead of 203%, with the Scholar Runes, and starting backstab with +10% dmg from those runes.

I just made this thing in 1 minute just to see how much the value would change in our favour, I’m sure that we could theorycraft a much better build (with more swiftness uptime, and/or more hps/armor, etc.) if we’d get that +50% crit chance on reveal.

But honestly I’m not for it, it’d be another power creep factor in an already power creep cluttered combat system, rewarding passive play and 1/2-shotting players down, instead of more interesting and fun combats.

Edit: or this, too: http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAoal0MhSnY3TwwJw/EHwE1uDWuB1nGnRboTgAIDA-TJBBAByXGAgHAQR7PEwJAAA
More power, more HP (20k), more crit dmg (219%), with the same swiftness uptime for mobility and 100% crit chance from stealth and while revealed.

Shadow.1345:

Maugetarr.6823:

Random thought for Hidden Killer. What if it also granted a +50% crit chance while revealed (in addition to 100% crit chance from stealth). This would be on par with some of the other classes’ traits like Death Perception and Unsuspecting Foe.

No I’d rather not have an easy button for critical hits because someone didn’t want to put Perception into their build.

I guess we should remove executioner, panic strike, and revealed training because people didn’t bring damage, devourer venom, or power to their builds then too.

to say exactly how squishy i have built myself.

Dagger+Pistol / Shortbow.

Berserker Amulet

Runes of the Ogre.

Critical Strikes 1 1 1/ Deadly Arts 1 2 2 / Trickery 2 2 2

11.6k hp.

Shadow Step / Infiltrators Signet / Shadow Refugee

I feel i kill anything before it has a chance at killing me unless im jumping into team fights stupidly or trying to take on a direct counter to myself which has the survivability to get through my burst I.E however by Evades Mobility Invis and Teleport with careful targetting im not getting absolutely destroyed at all.

Thief is still strong even in the squishiest state.

Maugetarr.6823:

Shadow.1345:

Maugetarr.6823:

Random thought for Hidden Killer. What if it also granted a +50% crit chance while revealed (in addition to 100% crit chance from stealth). This would be on par with some of the other classes’ traits like Death Perception and Unsuspecting Foe.

No I’d rather not have an easy button for critical hits because someone didn’t want to put Perception into their build.

I guess we should remove executioner, panic strike, and revealed training because people didn’t bring damage, devourer venom, or power to their builds then too.

Weak.

+200 Power while revealed doesn’t even come close to competing with +1050 Precision while revealed.

Panic Strike compared to Devourer Venom can be compared to any trait that procs at a set condition. Same with Executioner being compared to any damage increasing trait.

Again. Weak.
Try harder next time.

Shadow.1345:

Maugetarr.6823:

Shadow.1345:

Maugetarr.6823:

Random thought for Hidden Killer. What if it also granted a +50% crit chance while revealed (in addition to 100% crit chance from stealth). This would be on par with some of the other classes’ traits like Death Perception and Unsuspecting Foe.

No I’d rather not have an easy button for critical hits because someone didn’t want to put Perception into their build.

I guess we should remove executioner, panic strike, and revealed training because people didn’t bring damage, devourer venom, or power to their builds then too.

Weak.

+200 Power while revealed doesn’t even come close to competing with +1050 Precision while revealed.

Panic Strike compared to Devourer Venom can be compared to any trait that procs at a set condition. Same with Executioner being compared to any damage increasing trait.

Again. Weak.
Try harder next time.

Considering I gave you 2 examples to begin with that give +50% crit chance, I figured I would just give you the auto procs we already have. +50% is the same as unsuspecting foe and death perception, so I guess I could call this the same as any precision increasing trait. If you’re going to ignore the skills that already exist in game that I listed, I guess I really don’t have anything else for you.

Maugetarr.6823:

Shadow.1345:

Maugetarr.6823:

Random thought for Hidden Killer. What if it also granted a +50% crit chance while revealed (in addition to 100% crit chance from stealth). This would be on par with some of the other classes’ traits like Death Perception and Unsuspecting Foe.

No I’d rather not have an easy button for critical hits because someone didn’t want to put Perception into their build.

I guess we should remove executioner, panic strike, and revealed training because people didn’t bring damage, devourer venom, or power to their builds then too.

I honestly think DA is overrated. At least for D/x, the immo is kinda useless do to the stability spams and the 200 power is kinda ok. And executioner is somewhat useless, since (at least for me) if the enemy is at 50% or lower 1 backstab will kill him anyway, no matter those 20%. And if not, because its a tanky build it will take 2 more hits even with the 20%. So I don’t see what the bid deal is. The number is slightly higher, the outcome is the same, nearly. woopdidoo

DHawk.2687:

At least for D/x, the immo is kinda useless do to the stability spams

Stability does not affect immobolize, so Panic strike allows you to stay at an enemies back and not allow him to turn around, dodge or flee – which pretty much guarantee a backstab or heartseeker, or force out a cooldown from him.

DHawk.2687:

And executioner is somewhat useless, since (at least for me) if the enemy is at 50% or lower 1 backstab will kill him anyway, no matter those 20%

It allows for high heartseeker, which is faster and easier to land than a backstab for D/P. It also means you can easier AA kill – and imo a good thiefs knows when to use those two instead of backstab. after all, using a black powder > heartseeker gives the enemy a lot of time to see what you are doing and react.
And then obviously 20% damage on enemies below 50% also allows for great shortbow damage (or S/x if you fancy such weapon sets).

Also you did not mention mug, Serpent’s Touch and Lotus Poison – all of which are really great.

Hope this helps you understand why DA is favored by a lot of thiefs

Rezok.2709:

DHawk.2687:

At least for D/x, the immo is kinda useless do to the stability spams

Stability does not affect immobolize, so Panic strike allows you to stay at an enemies back and not allow him to turn around, dodge or flee – which pretty much guarantee a backstab or heartseeker, or force out a cooldown from him.

DHawk.2687:

And executioner is somewhat useless, since (at least for me) if the enemy is at 50% or lower 1 backstab will kill him anyway, no matter those 20%

It allows for high heartseeker, which is faster and easier to land than a backstab for D/P. It also means you can easier AA kill – and imo a good thiefs knows when to use those two instead of backstab. after all, using a black powder > heartseeker gives the enemy a lot of time to see what you are doing and react.
And then obviously 20% damage on enemies below 50% also allows for great shortbow damage (or S/x if you fancy such weapon sets).

Also you did not mention mug, Serpent’s Touch and Lotus Poison – all of which are really great.

Hope this helps you understand why DA is favored by a lot of thiefs

yes i agree that mug is very usefull, i just don’t think that executioner really benefits as much as it seems. I understand the situation you discribed, but i can blindpowder instabackstab faster in most situations then following up with 1 or 2 heartseakers, or even CnD backstab is faster sometimes, i just don’t feel the need for the damage buff becaues it hardly influences the time to kill, well i’ve not noticed it yet to be honet

I’m not saying it’s a bad trait tree, I love mug e.g. and revealed training imo is the strongest trait in that line, but i think it’s mostly not beneficial compared with other lines unless you are just aiming for high numbers

Try this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVl0MhSnY3TwwJw/EH7E1OAqt2kfCrQJ4nio4KA-TZBBwAkLDA4RAUc/hNHBAInAAA

Valk Amulet:
Trick/CS/SA
30% crit but you should 50% (57% behind target) with high Fury uptime with NQ, Pack Runes plus TotC
218% Crit damage before crit damange bonuses
20.6K health

What you lose. DA’s mug, PS, and Improv but you will do more damage than DA/SA/Trick mettabattle plus what I mentioned above. You can swap SA for Acro if you like Acro better.

check out my post for a strong viable dd build that can excell in any situation https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Allround-strong-D-D-build/first#post5284318

DHawk.2687:

Rezok.2709:

DHawk.2687:

At least for D/x, the immo is kinda useless do to the stability spams

Stability does not affect immobolize, so Panic strike allows you to stay at an enemies back and not allow him to turn around, dodge or flee – which pretty much guarantee a backstab or heartseeker, or force out a cooldown from him.

DHawk.2687:

And executioner is somewhat useless, since (at least for me) if the enemy is at 50% or lower 1 backstab will kill him anyway, no matter those 20%

It allows for high heartseeker, which is faster and easier to land than a backstab for D/P. It also means you can easier AA kill – and imo a good thiefs knows when to use those two instead of backstab. after all, using a black powder > heartseeker gives the enemy a lot of time to see what you are doing and react.
And then obviously 20% damage on enemies below 50% also allows for great shortbow damage (or S/x if you fancy such weapon sets).

Also you did not mention mug, Serpent’s Touch and Lotus Poison – all of which are really great.

Hope this helps you understand why DA is favored by a lot of thiefs

yes i agree that mug is very usefull, i just don’t think that executioner really benefits as much as it seems. I understand the situation you discribed, but i can blindpowder instabackstab faster in most situations then following up with 1 or 2 heartseakers, or even CnD backstab is faster sometimes, i just don’t feel the need for the damage buff becaues it hardly influences the time to kill, well i’ve not noticed it yet to be honet

I’m not saying it’s a bad trait tree, I love mug e.g. and revealed training imo is the strongest trait in that line, but i think it’s mostly not beneficial compared with other lines unless you are just aiming for high numbers

imo panic strike is way better than revealed training… lobg immobilize on 50% health on a 20sec CD, best moment to start “spamming” HS

i also dont really car about executioner that much, but try improvisation!
rng skill recharge can be nice or useless, depending on the situation… but the double activation of your stolen skill is awesome against (mainly power) mesmers, condi rangers, guards and a lot of ele builds

Tarkan.5609:

DHawk.2687:

Rezok.2709:

DHawk.2687:

At least for D/x, the immo is kinda useless do to the stability spams

Stability does not affect immobolize, so Panic strike allows you to stay at an enemies back and not allow him to turn around, dodge or flee – which pretty much guarantee a backstab or heartseeker, or force out a cooldown from him.

DHawk.2687:

And executioner is somewhat useless, since (at least for me) if the enemy is at 50% or lower 1 backstab will kill him anyway, no matter those 20%

It allows for high heartseeker, which is faster and easier to land than a backstab for D/P. It also means you can easier AA kill – and imo a good thiefs knows when to use those two instead of backstab. after all, using a black powder > heartseeker gives the enemy a lot of time to see what you are doing and react.
And then obviously 20% damage on enemies below 50% also allows for great shortbow damage (or S/x if you fancy such weapon sets).

Also you did not mention mug, Serpent’s Touch and Lotus Poison – all of which are really great.

Hope this helps you understand why DA is favored by a lot of thiefs

yes i agree that mug is very usefull, i just don’t think that executioner really benefits as much as it seems. I understand the situation you discribed, but i can blindpowder instabackstab faster in most situations then following up with 1 or 2 heartseakers, or even CnD backstab is faster sometimes, i just don’t feel the need for the damage buff becaues it hardly influences the time to kill, well i’ve not noticed it yet to be honet

I’m not saying it’s a bad trait tree, I love mug e.g. and revealed training imo is the strongest trait in that line, but i think it’s mostly not beneficial compared with other lines unless you are just aiming for high numbers

imo panic strike is way better than revealed training… lobg immobilize on 50% health on a 20sec CD, best moment to start “spamming” HS

i also dont really car about executioner that much, but try improvisation!
rng skill recharge can be nice or useless, depending on the situation… but the double activation of your stolen skill is awesome against (mainly power) mesmers, condi rangers, guards and a lot of ele builds

yeah i know, but i just never have the need for DA, with my build i haven’t encountered a class or build yet i couldn’t overcome.
I always think, the build won’t do the work for you, it only caters to your playstyle, that’s why i make all my builds on my own and usally am very successfull with it

Vieux P.1238:

Stop complaining & playing squishy builds. No wonder you die all the time. All classes including thieves will down you if it hits you. kitten it, why thieve players cant be innovative? Here.. New thieve guide: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEnar62Impo

Is this fella for real?

Uhh nm I’ma just let this one slide

Maugetarr.6823:

Shadow.1345:

Maugetarr.6823:

Shadow.1345:

Maugetarr.6823:

Random thought for Hidden Killer. What if it also granted a +50% crit chance while revealed (in addition to 100% crit chance from stealth). This would be on par with some of the other classes’ traits like Death Perception and Unsuspecting Foe.

No I’d rather not have an easy button for critical hits because someone didn’t want to put Perception into their build.

I guess we should remove executioner, panic strike, and revealed training because people didn’t bring damage, devourer venom, or power to their builds then too.

Weak.

+200 Power while revealed doesn’t even come close to competing with +1050 Precision while revealed.

Panic Strike compared to Devourer Venom can be compared to any trait that procs at a set condition. Same with Executioner being compared to any damage increasing trait.

Again. Weak.
Try harder next time.

Considering I gave you 2 examples to begin with that give +50% crit chance, I figured I would just give you the auto procs we already have. +50% is the same as unsuspecting foe and death perception, so I guess I could call this the same as any precision increasing trait. If you’re going to ignore the skills that already exist in game that I listed, I guess I really don’t have anything else for you.

Those two that give +50% critical chance under specific conditions vs. Hidden Killer that gives 100% critical chance under certain conditions and you think Hidden Killer is the one that got jipped? Seems to me like Hidden Killer is the better one considering it gets double the bonus and you want an an extra bonus added on to make it comparable when it is already better than those two? Seems more like a way to get extra Precision because someone didn’t put it in their build than making it fair.

[/quote]
with our survival nerfs a thief must be god like to compete with other professions.

[/quote]

Thank you for the compliment.

YesterdayI came across a necro ele. Ranger team taking sw camp in sbi. All that was left was 2 vet guards. I jumped in and took down the necro first as he is a necro and should die first. Took the ranger next and ele ran away during the second stomp. Each of those classes can easily solo a camp, so for me to take them on says that thief can have a big role to play in wvw.
The problem is to find that synergy with the class that best fits your own play style. I was even running a skill i had never used before, but things just fell into place.

I would say you can look at someone else’s theory crafting, but someone else’s may not be the best for you. That is why i have run only my own build creations,

Shadow.1345:

Maugetarr.6823:

Shadow.1345:

Maugetarr.6823:

Shadow.1345:

Maugetarr.6823:

Random thought for Hidden Killer. What if it also granted a +50% crit chance while revealed (in addition to 100% crit chance from stealth). This would be on par with some of the other classes’ traits like Death Perception and Unsuspecting Foe.

No I’d rather not have an easy button for critical hits because someone didn’t want to put Perception into their build.

I guess we should remove executioner, panic strike, and revealed training because people didn’t bring damage, devourer venom, or power to their builds then too.

Weak.

+200 Power while revealed doesn’t even come close to competing with +1050 Precision while revealed.

Panic Strike compared to Devourer Venom can be compared to any trait that procs at a set condition. Same with Executioner being compared to any damage increasing trait.

Again. Weak.
Try harder next time.

Considering I gave you 2 examples to begin with that give +50% crit chance, I figured I would just give you the auto procs we already have. +50% is the same as unsuspecting foe and death perception, so I guess I could call this the same as any precision increasing trait. If you’re going to ignore the skills that already exist in game that I listed, I guess I really don’t have anything else for you.

Those two that give +50% critical chance under specific conditions vs. Hidden Killer that gives 100% critical chance under certain conditions and you think Hidden Killer is the one that got jipped? Seems to me like Hidden Killer is the better one considering it gets double the bonus and you want an an extra bonus added on to make it comparable when it is already better than those two? Seems more like a way to get extra Precision because someone didn’t put it in their build than making it fair.

….but +50% while revealed is under a specific condion. The difference is all attacks if the condition is met versus a single attack (i.e. all warrior attacks while stunned/knocked down, all shroud attacks)

Edit: I think I should explain my thinking a little more. Adding this bonus for 3 (4) seconds would move this trait away from being a dagger mainhand only trait to a trait that could benefit sword and shortbow combos as well.

Maugetarr.6823:

Shadow.1345:

Maugetarr.6823:

Shadow.1345:

Maugetarr.6823:

Shadow.1345:

Maugetarr.6823:

Random thought for Hidden Killer. What if it also granted a +50% crit chance while revealed (in addition to 100% crit chance from stealth). This would be on par with some of the other classes’ traits like Death Perception and Unsuspecting Foe.

No I’d rather not have an easy button for critical hits because someone didn’t want to put Perception into their build.

I guess we should remove executioner, panic strike, and revealed training because people didn’t bring damage, devourer venom, or power to their builds then too.

Weak.

+200 Power while revealed doesn’t even come close to competing with +1050 Precision while revealed.

Panic Strike compared to Devourer Venom can be compared to any trait that procs at a set condition. Same with Executioner being compared to any damage increasing trait.

Again. Weak.
Try harder next time.

Considering I gave you 2 examples to begin with that give +50% crit chance, I figured I would just give you the auto procs we already have. +50% is the same as unsuspecting foe and death perception, so I guess I could call this the same as any precision increasing trait. If you’re going to ignore the skills that already exist in game that I listed, I guess I really don’t have anything else for you.

Those two that give +50% critical chance under specific conditions vs. Hidden Killer that gives 100% critical chance under certain conditions and you think Hidden Killer is the one that got jipped? Seems to me like Hidden Killer is the better one considering it gets double the bonus and you want an an extra bonus added on to make it comparable when it is already better than those two? Seems more like a way to get extra Precision because someone didn’t put it in their build than making it fair.

….but +50% while revealed is under a specific condion. The difference is all attacks if the condition is met versus a single attack (i.e. all warrior attacks while stunned/knocked down, all shroud attacks)

Edit: I think I should explain my thinking a little more. Adding this bonus for 3 (4) seconds would move this trait away from being a dagger mainhand only trait to a trait that could benefit sword and shortbow combos as well.

Right, I just personally think guaranteed critical on a backstab is powerful enough. And face it, almost anyone taking Hidden Killer in their build is doing it to make up for a lack of Precision in their build to still get a good backstab. And yes, it is a dagger main-hand trait pretty much. Just like Ankle Shots is a pistol main-hand only ability because why would anyone take it for pistol off-hand?

I do think the +50% critical chance while revealed however would make for an excellent Revealed Training instead of +200 power and then swap it with Potent Poisons into the GM slot. That would make a very powerful ability that would compete with the other two DA GM traits. Plus Potent Poisons is really pretty weak for a GM trait with the 10% damage increase and 33% duration increase on only one condition making it better for a Master trait than GM one.

Shadow.1345:

Maugetarr.6823:

Shadow.1345:

Maugetarr.6823:

Shadow.1345:

Maugetarr.6823:

Shadow.1345:

Maugetarr.6823:

Random thought for Hidden Killer. What if it also granted a +50% crit chance while revealed (in addition to 100% crit chance from stealth). This would be on par with some of the other classes’ traits like Death Perception and Unsuspecting Foe.

No I’d rather not have an easy button for critical hits because someone didn’t want to put Perception into their build.

I guess we should remove executioner, panic strike, and revealed training because people didn’t bring damage, devourer venom, or power to their builds then too.

Weak.

+200 Power while revealed doesn’t even come close to competing with +1050 Precision while revealed.

Panic Strike compared to Devourer Venom can be compared to any trait that procs at a set condition. Same with Executioner being compared to any damage increasing trait.

Again. Weak.
Try harder next time.

Considering I gave you 2 examples to begin with that give +50% crit chance, I figured I would just give you the auto procs we already have. +50% is the same as unsuspecting foe and death perception, so I guess I could call this the same as any precision increasing trait. If you’re going to ignore the skills that already exist in game that I listed, I guess I really don’t have anything else for you.

Those two that give +50% critical chance under specific conditions vs. Hidden Killer that gives 100% critical chance under certain conditions and you think Hidden Killer is the one that got jipped? Seems to me like Hidden Killer is the better one considering it gets double the bonus and you want an an extra bonus added on to make it comparable when it is already better than those two? Seems more like a way to get extra Precision because someone didn’t put it in their build than making it fair.

….but +50% while revealed is under a specific condion. The difference is all attacks if the condition is met versus a single attack (i.e. all warrior attacks while stunned/knocked down, all shroud attacks)

Edit: I think I should explain my thinking a little more. Adding this bonus for 3 (4) seconds would move this trait away from being a dagger mainhand only trait to a trait that could benefit sword and shortbow combos as well.

Right, I just personally think guaranteed critical on a backstab is powerful enough. And face it, almost anyone taking Hidden Killer in their build is doing it to make up for a lack of Precision in their build to still get a good backstab. And yes, it is a dagger main-hand trait pretty much. Just like Ankle Shots is a pistol main-hand only ability because why would anyone take it for pistol off-hand?

I do think the +50% critical chance while revealed however would make for an excellent Revealed Training instead of +200 power and then swap it with Potent Poisons into the GM slot. That would make a very powerful ability that would compete with the other two DA GM traits. Plus Potent Poisons is really pretty weak for a GM trait with the 10% damage increase and 33% duration increase on only one condition making it better for a Master trait than GM one.

Hey, at least we’re getting somewhere on discussing it. I sort of like revealed training as is because it fits the deadly arts theme. I dislike it when traits with interesting goals end up benefitting one weapon only (see swindler’s equilibrium). While 100/50 might be a little over the top, some intermediate compromise might give it some more wide spread utility. Perhaps a 50/50 (in stealth/revealed) would make it more universal in terms of weapon sets. D/X could still get a guaranteed crit on BS with as little as 30% crit chance as long as they have fury, and S/X could have the chance to put a little more pressure on opponents when coming out of stealth. Alternatively, putting it somewhere else in the CS line might also be an option. I’d like to see the +50% replace sundering strikes, but i do think that’s a bit strong for a master trait; While warrior’s is a master’s trait and necros is a GM, I think introducing this effect would sut somewhere in between those two in terms of power and uptime, hence my idea to tack it on to HK instead of giving it it’s own trait.

Just to clarify something: meta battle are not necessary 100% best build, in every situations there are better builds…. meta builds just give general idea what works/is effective in most common cases and meets most requirements, kind of like a guidance…. which you can choose to follow or not.

Problem is, anet just keeps nerfing all the good stuff so meeting those requirements becomes harder and limits thieves to literary 1 build which not even that great if you consider other classes.

men, i am convinced that our dmg is enough… 100 power when revealed, +100 critical dmg.. is not the point
we, not mesmer, should have buff when stealthed kitten
give us protection and aegis while stealthed

from my point of view, our dmg right now is very high.. i can oneshot guardians, mesmer and ranger.. litteraly.. but in courtyard i m dead before do nothing

stealth, i repeat, should be our stuff.. evey-fruiting-body has it

Can’t we all just get along?