Guild Wars 2

Red Falcon.8257:

Rangers are pretty much free kills for a Thief right now, even good Rangers.
At least now they have something to make their inevitable death a bit less embarassing.

Not is spvp they aint. Balance shouldnt be opted for based on wvw if there is a problem in wvw it should be dealt with in wvw only. And for ther record i never complained for stealth trap.

Chokolata.1870:

Can I get something as a Thief that completely negates a Ranger’s pet that isn’t a stupid tree that the pet wants to pee on?

Run around in a circle and the pet wont hit you

Yes, but that leaves a Ranger open to attack me. Why shouldn’t I have the ability to negate his class mechanic, say like, “disable Pet abilities for N seconds”? :p

LOL @ the claims that stealth needs nerfing and that this will give it some counterplay. You know what I do when I fight a stealthy Thief? I dodge his ultra-telegraphed CnD, I interrupt his HS through BP and I interrupt his heal. If be manages to get into stealth, I follow him with AA’s and then dodge just before he uses Backstab.

You know how I can do all of this? I learned to play the game. Shocking, I know, but I sucked before I decided to practice and get better.

How long would it be? For a 2000 y range skill without los requirement that might be a bit too much if its over 3-5 seconds… And I sure do hope this WILL NOT put thief into combat.

from what i understand its basically just like using rapid fire before a thief stealths (bare… bear? in mind that rapid fire and greatsword are the only ways for a ranger to reliably hit a stealthed thief atm… and their pet isnt attacking which means no compensation for the kitten damage)

i likely wont be using it after patch (ill stick with LB+GS and hit you thieves with 10k+ rapid fires before you stealth because most of you are so predictable) unless they give ranger better cond removal (without speccing into grandmaster for it.. and even then… its not controlled… and gimps pets… so gimps damage) im going to be having much less fun against p/d thieves (healing spring nerf)

Incurafy.6329:

I dodge his ultra-telegraphed CnD

ultra… ultra telegraphed? no… no it isnt… maul is ultra telegraphed… HB is ultra telegraphed… meteor shower is ultra telegraphed

and this is ranger getting the ‘counter’, you just C+D off the kitten pet

This isn’t going to break your class, don’t worry. It is 1 ability that is useless most of the time anyway.

Also, to thieves who think this is a nerf to their “core mechanic” (which is actually initiative not stealth), perhaps you would like to explain larcenous strike/boon hate to an ele or guard, who have a secondary reliance on boons (as much as a thief does stealth). Counter-play is an o.k. thing.

I gave up on thief, although it is my favorite profession and it still makes me crazy to see this constant nerf after nerf after nerf and other professions keep getting better and better. I hope they totally brake it in the next patch and make it completely useless.
ONLY THEN, (after 2-3 month ofc) thieves might get a BUFF!!! can you believe that?! if thieves don’t have 1 single semi-decent weapon set they will have to do something about it… i guess…

Eodwen.2613:

Totally agree with you doomdesire and i believe stealth should be coutnered when used offensively like using cloack and dagger. But way i see it this is intended to take us out when using an utility to try to heal conditions and hp or run away with black powder/refuge etc. If i were a ranger i would use it when id think the thief would try to break contact. Also i dont play wvw much but i do play spvp and the revelead buff is 4 secs there, plenty of time to get stomped (see last refuge posts). I dont see why anyone should try to strive for balance based on wvw. Its spvp thats supposed to be a balanced.

SPvP is the least balanced in reality….pass whatever your smoking.

Parktou.4263:

Eodwen.2613:

Totally agree with you doomdesire and i believe stealth should be coutnered when used offensively like using cloack and dagger. But way i see it this is intended to take us out when using an utility to try to heal conditions and hp or run away with black powder/refuge etc. If i were a ranger i would use it when id think the thief would try to break contact. Also i dont play wvw much but i do play spvp and the revelead buff is 4 secs there, plenty of time to get stomped (see last refuge posts). I dont see why anyone should try to strive for balance based on wvw. Its spvp thats supposed to be a balanced.

SPvP is the least balanced in reality….pass whatever your smoking.

Never said spvp was balanced i said the class skills/mechanics/traits should be balanced based on how OP they are in spvp not in wvw. And that is why i said dont add this in spvp.

Sweet buff to Catsassin builds

Maybe I’ll have to transmute my Kudzu to my ranger for this.

My only question is that Sic em lasts for ten seconds, so will be be revealed to everyone, or just the ranger?

Surferboy.1649:

why does Anet always make thieves worse? warriors can block, stun and do heavy dmg, they have a heavy armor and even a bad warrior gives a good thief a hard time. Wth is wrong with anet.
Buffing rangers? okay, seems fair. But why buffing them by hurting thieves?

Maybe they’re slowly trying to replace thieves with rangers, and they’ll get more stealth skills. :o They already force us to dress like them~ maybe we’ll end up being merged.

As a ranger I can tell you you probably wont encounter this too often. Its not a common skill to use, and probably wont become one because of this change.

You’re most likely to come across it I think if you are trolling a small group of people, then a ranger might swap to Sic ’Em just to get rid of you, but tbh I cant imagine many people will run it as a perminant part of their setup just to counter one class.

RedSpectrum.1975:

My only question is that Sic em lasts for ten seconds, so will be be revealed to everyone, or just the ranger?

I would think they would implement it by the ranger applying the revealed debuff to you.

RedSpectrum.1975:

My only question is that Sic em lasts for ten seconds, so will be be revealed to everyone, or just the ranger?

Assuming its the same reveal debuff that theives get for 3s after leaving stealth, it will simple block you from entering stealth at all rather than making it so you stealth but the ranger still sees you.

So in answer to your question, everyone will still see you.

Hopefully there will be more skills that will apply revealed in the future. Sic Em, even with the change, is still something I would think twice about taking.

Ruggan.4102:

Icarus Pherae.4680:

ensoriki.5789:

It’s an interesting change but I’ll repeat a thought I had.
If Stealth-denial is coming and may be added to more skills going forward there should ideally be an addition of traits or a replacement of traits in the Shadow arts line for some more non-stealth traits.
Kind of shoddy to have a line built on Stealth and alienating the stat benefits if in the long run stealth is shut down more often.

I won’t jump onto the “sky is falling” train just yet, but one thing I think could balance this some would be to make revealed a condition that can be cleansed.

Major issue with making revealed a condition…. MOST OF THIEVES CONDI REMOVAL IS IN STEALTH!!!!!!

Which would prevent it from being broken, I realized as much, but that doesn’t mean your buddies can’t cleanse for you. Making it a cleanseable condition while in stealth negates it entirely, but if people have a way of applying it to me, I want a way to be rid of it, even if the only way is for combos through a light field….

Edit: THOUGHT I NEEDED SOME ALL CAPS TOO!!!!!

Kaon.7192:

I’m sorry, but you have your priorities completely mixed up when it comes to Stealth.

If there is a problem with Stealth, fix Stealth itself.

If it’s perma-stealth dagger/pistol that’s the problem, fix that, and tone down the initiative regen traits that make it possible.

If it’s C&D chaining that’s the problem, fix that and make revealed apply when you drop out of stealth even without attacking.

If Backstab being too easy to land is the problem, fix that and make only the first slot1 attack in stealth act as a Stealth attack, and the rest regular auto’s.

If it’s perma-dodge that’s the problem, fix that and leave stealth alone.

Whatever you do, please don’t continue down this path of turning Stealth into a mechanic that can be disabled at the whim of anyone who happens to hate thieves enough to run these Stealth disabling items/abilities/traits.

A mechanic like enemy-induced Revealed that disables a major class mechanic like Stealth has no place in this game, period. This is by far the most lazy and reactionary form of balance I have seen from you guys.

First stealth trap, now this. Two points make a slope, and this makes me very concerned about where you’re trying to take Stealth as a mechanic.

If you go far enough Stealth will be practically pointless as a build option for Thieves, and you might as well scrap Stealth entirely and give us something that maybe people will hate on less, so you don’t have to be pressured into making ridiculous mechanic-specific counters like this.

Just posted this in the Balance Preview thread that Jon claims to have read in its entirety.
Probably the best chance to have your voices heard before the patch hits.

I expected to see this the second I came into this thread, thieves acting like the sky is falling when a single skill gets the ability to force reveal on a thief. It’s most likely going to be the usual 3s. Oh, but they could spam it…yes, spam a skill that’s on a 40 second cooldown. Face it, it’s silly to QQ about a single skill that does what normally happens when you attack while in stealth.

well, I don’t think Anet cares much about what the thieves think. Everyone else is whining about thieves, so they keep nerfing them, so all others are happy.
As I understood it, giving reveal to rangers is just a start and other classes will follow, wait another month and all classes can reveal us. So as soon as we fight against 2 we are dead, because we can’t stealth anymore.
I bet this class will be broken until Chrismas.
Right now, I can at least farm most players, because they just suck.
When fighting against good players, you really have a hard time already.
To be honest, a good ranger doesn’t need the reveal to kill you, if he knows when to dodge and when to block, but with it he has it much easier.

We will see how many rangers will use that skill. What annoys me is, that there is a skill which focuses on a single class. I mean, mesmers can also stealth, no question, but in 1v1 fights, they can’t use it often.
So which other skills exist in this game, which are against one class?

I’d imagine that you can’t use this skill if your pet is dead. So possible ways of countering this “counter” is ccing the pet, dodging, evading, teleporting, blinding, running in circles, killing it. And for those that want an obvious animation for a shout, rangers already have a shout with cast time, I think the only class that has one too. How about giving steal an obvious animation too, as you can stealth with it.

Surferboy.1649:

well, I don’t think Anet cares much about what the thieves think. Everyone else is whining about thieves, so they keep nerfing them, so all others are happy.
As I understood it, giving reveal to rangers is just a start and other classes will follow, wait another month and all classes can reveal us. So as soon as we fight against 2 we are dead, because we can’t stealth anymore.
I bet this class will be broken until Chrismas.
Right now, I can at least farm most players, because they just suck.
When fighting against good players, you really have a hard time already.
To be honest, a good ranger doesn’t need the reveal to kill you, if he knows when to dodge and when to block, but with it he has it much easier.

We will see how many rangers will use that skill. What annoys me is, that there is a skill which focuses on a single class. I mean, mesmers can also stealth, no question, but in 1v1 fights, they can’t use it often.
So which other skills exist in this game, which are against one class?

Thief as it is right now is almost immortal with stealth, is there a reason becuase most ppl roam with thief ? yes, it’s the easiest class right now, it compensate the lack of skill,
I hope this will change as soon as possible, all class should be able to counter thiefs, as thief is able to counter all builds.
It’s not gonna destroy the class, this is the first step to balance broke mechanics, the most broken was stealth.

I love to read you guys whining

I thought Anet understood that balance between different classes does not have to be as simple as rock, paper, scissors. Every class has its own role and function. I can write a very long list of advantages related to levelling the different classes in guild wars to level 80. But as we are talking about thieves there function in wvw specifically is to free roam and disrupt small number of enemies moving around the map. Pick off enemies who make the mistake of alienating themselves from the blob they follow (Though this only applies to medium and light armour classes).

Now the question is what will happen to the use of thieves in wvw after they provide every class with atleast one stealth hard counter. I dont see myself going into wvw with my thief anymore. I see people qq on forums about the OP’ness of perma stealth builds. The only reason I see them cry is because they can not face off thief in 1 vs 1 on fair grounds. Well there is no other thing a thief is great at in wvw. they can not run around with blobs and be of much use their. If every other class wants the capability of high end 1vs1, good support in blobs in wvw, very useful class in dungeon parties, excellent in pve free roaming solo, superb support in pvp plays then I ask to every one who cries about thief what is the point as a player to level up other classes after you got one class to lvl 80? I levelled a warrior specifically to get better access to dungeon groups since most of them dont accept thieves and elementalists in dungeons. If I get a jack of all trades in one class why would I even bother to level another class.

And with all honesty I thought Anet understood this and that is why they din give a rats kitten to what people said. But they have disappointed me on this. The least of uses I could mention of a class was of rangers, I think they wanted to bring +1 to why someone wants to level a ranger. Well ranger is still gonna be the last class I will level.

sminkiottone.6972:

Surferboy.1649:

well, I don’t think Anet cares much about what the thieves think. Everyone else is whining about thieves, so they keep nerfing them, so all others are happy.
As I understood it, giving reveal to rangers is just a start and other classes will follow, wait another month and all classes can reveal us. So as soon as we fight against 2 we are dead, because we can’t stealth anymore.
I bet this class will be broken until Chrismas.
Right now, I can at least farm most players, because they just suck.
When fighting against good players, you really have a hard time already.
To be honest, a good ranger doesn’t need the reveal to kill you, if he knows when to dodge and when to block, but with it he has it much easier.

We will see how many rangers will use that skill. What annoys me is, that there is a skill which focuses on a single class. I mean, mesmers can also stealth, no question, but in 1v1 fights, they can’t use it often.
So which other skills exist in this game, which are against one class?

Thief as it is right now is almost immortal with stealth, is there a reason becuase most ppl roam with thief ? yes, it’s the easiest class right now, it compensate the lack of skill,
I hope this will change as soon as possible, all class should be able to counter thiefs, as thief is able to counter all builds.
It’s not gonna destroy the class, this is the first step to balance broke mechanics, the most broken was stealth.

I love to read you guys whining

Thief is not able to counter mesmers, guardians, necros and some builds on elementalists very easily. your statement is bulls (you know what) when you say that. You have not even played all classes to know what counters you have against thief. every class has builds to counter against thief. People then argue that if we use those builds we can not really help in any thing else like the blob fights. I ask a simple question that when a thief specs himself to perma stealth build do you see them capable of doing anything else then to just pick off enemies. hell other classes even have the option of switching roles in wvw by changing builds. But a thief is stuck at just that singular option to solo roam and now even that is being taken away. And you are trying to pin the opinion that only people use thiefs to free roam because they are the easiest class. seriously, even i am not good at perma stealthing my thief when people who know how to counter me throw themsleves at me. after these changes I guess the only use left for thieves will be at pve content like world completion and nothing else :-)

Revealed on an ability that requires a visible target is no more a counter to Stealth then Stun or Daze is.
It might last a bit longer, but we dont know that yet.

As it stands there is still nothing to actively track a Thief in stealth or pull him out if it, and that is what i consider an actual counter to Stealth.

Terrahero.9358:

Revealed on an ability that requires a visible target is no more a counter to Stealth then Stun or Daze is.
It might last a bit longer, but we dont know that yet.

As it stands there is still nothing to actively track a Thief in stealth or pull him out if it, and that is what i consider an actual counter to Stealth.

Ageed with terrahero after researching some on ranger forums the skill doesnt even work correctly to begin with. ALso the ranger has to kinda predict when you are going into stealth and time it and even if it can be activated when you arleady ons tealth without a target like search and rescue they still need to know you are there and the pet has to hit you as well. And it might not even be 3 seconds since the arrow cart has an aoe reveal ability of 2 seconds, though i guess you be able hesitant to stealth for 10 seconds since you ll get revelead again . However its the general concept the developers are going with as concerned to thief, “Its gonna get worse before it gonna get better.” forcing us away from builds rather than giving us incentive to play something else.

Is the ranger skill ground target like some aoe or is it simpy on target ability. If it is the second one no matter if the thief is in stealth if you had targeted the thief before he goes into stealth you are still gonna hit and reveal him. This is how generally everything works against a thief. play one to know better. So terrahero you are suggesting a real counter to stealth is that a thief be in stealth and gets revealed is like begging to remove a mechanic from game that one class is completely dependant on for survival.

And btw reveal is very different from stun and daze. once you reveal that thief you can then stun and daze that thief to its death. However, if you stun and daze a thief that is in stealth which is to last for lets say 11 sec you will move on without caring to kill that thief and he escapes. I dont know what is the obsession of playing 1 vs 1 with a thief all these nabs got to do. You cant simply cant face him off 1 vs 1 stick to your blob and run him down whenever you see one. I do that when I play my ele I dont run to my death when I see a thief ahead of me. However when I am thief many people come begging to get killed one by one. stop crying about stealth mechanics already and I hope Anet does not weaken this mechanic more.

Terrahero.9358:

Revealed on an ability that requires a visible target is no more a counter to Stealth then Stun or Daze is.
It might last a bit longer, but we dont know that yet.

As it stands there is still nothing to actively track a Thief in stealth or pull him out if it, and that is what i consider an actual counter to Stealth.

actively track a thief in stealth? what is the point of stealth then?

Shemsu.8721:

Terrahero.9358:

Revealed on an ability that requires a visible target is no more a counter to Stealth then Stun or Daze is.
It might last a bit longer, but we dont know that yet.

As it stands there is still nothing to actively track a Thief in stealth or pull him out if it, and that is what i consider an actual counter to Stealth.

actively track a thief in stealth? what is the point of stealth then?

They just want a thief served with a hot platter to them!!!

Assuming the skill stays as is a not trurning into an aoe it would prolly work like this. Thief is not in stealth ranger targets uses sic-em pet runs after thief. Thief goes to stealth pet hits thief and reveals for couple of secs then goes to stealth pet hits and reveals thief again etc till the 10 secs are up. The problem on theives side are there is no animation and ability is instant and has to target pet to see the buff. On rangers side the pet has to hit the thief in order to reveal him and pets are generally unreliable.

UnknownRH.4592:

Shemsu.8721:

Terrahero.9358:

Revealed on an ability that requires a visible target is no more a counter to Stealth then Stun or Daze is.
It might last a bit longer, but we dont know that yet.

As it stands there is still nothing to actively track a Thief in stealth or pull him out if it, and that is what i consider an actual counter to Stealth.

actively track a thief in stealth? what is the point of stealth then?

They just want a thief served with a hot platter to them!!!

Just chill man, he wasn’t suggesting anything. Thieves are almost worst than rangers on the forums… wow.

I’m looking forward to getting the ability to locking elementalists into 1 attunement, locking guards out of virtues, dropping war health by 50%, preventing mesmers from making clones/phantasms, locking necros out of DS, locking engi’s out of kits and toolbelt skills, etc etc etc.

I seriously bet that revealed will last the duration of Sic’ Em, 10 seconds. Wait and see.

Hype.8032:

I’m looking forward to getting the ability to locking elementalists into 1 attunement, locking guards out of virtues, dropping war health by 50%, preventing mesmers from making clones/phantasms, locking necros out of DS, locking engi’s out of kits and toolbelt skills, etc etc etc.

yes, yes. This would be amazing counterplay!
It should definitely happen!

Seriously though, there is little difference between those jokes and this ranger skill.

Fade.7658:

I seriously bet that revealed will last the duration of Sic’ Em, 10 seconds. Wait and see.

Thats the only thing I’m worried about, a reusable 1/3rd of a stealth trap. You thought a 4 second revealed will be deadly? think again

RedSpectrum.1975:

Fade.7658:

I seriously bet that revealed will last the duration of Sic’ Em, 10 seconds. Wait and see.

Thats the only thing I’m worried about, a reusable 1/3rd of a stealth trap. You thought a 4 second revealed will be deadly? think again

Thief is the last profession I enjoy and I have other draws on my time. It is Anet’s move I suppose.

sminkiottone.6972:

Thief as it is right now is almost immortal with stealth

no.

Linguistically Inept.6583:

sminkiottone.6972:

Thief as it is right now is almost immortal with stealth

no.

A skilled one is unkillable.

Fade.7658:

I seriously bet that revealed will last the duration of Sic’ Em, 10 seconds. Wait and see.

No, they’ll probably make the revealed last the normal 3-4 seconds…which wouldn’t change a kitten thing in a battle.

This change will be fantastic for non-stealth S/P thieves.

Linguistically Inept.6583:

from what i understand its basically just like using rapid fire before a thief stealths (bare… bear? in mind that rapid fire and greatsword are the only ways for a ranger to reliably hit a stealthed thief atm… and their pet isnt attacking which means no compensation for the kitten damage)

i likely wont be using it after patch (ill stick with LB+GS and hit you thieves with 10k+ rapid fires before you stealth because most of you are so predictable) unless they give ranger better cond removal (without speccing into grandmaster for it.. and even then… its not controlled… and gimps pets… so gimps damage) im going to be having much less fun against p/d thieves (healing spring nerf)

Incurafy.6329:

I dodge his ultra-telegraphed CnD

ultra… ultra telegraphed? no… no it isnt… maul is ultra telegraphed… HB is ultra telegraphed… meteor shower is ultra telegraphed

and this is ranger getting the ‘counter’, you just C+D off the kitten pet

Sorry, and note that i hate thieves too and some of their mechanics are Bs, but if you cant dodge CnD, youre bad and need to l2p.

magic fly.2041:

Linguistically Inept.6583:

sminkiottone.6972:

Thief as it is right now is almost immortal with stealth

no.

A skilled one is unkillable.

Every skilled player is unkillable.

But thief players know, that they have no room for mistakes. We learned this on the hard way.
So they have to learn much faster, when its time to dodge and how the must handle his skills and inipool. Thiefs who dont learn this, belongs to the spamming faction.
This seems to be the reason, why people think the thief to strong.

Otherwise useing the most stealththiefs the element of surpriseing, but if you keep the environment in sight, they have no chance to land the first strike.

I like this change. WvWvW really isn’t very challenging on my thief right now. thank you anet.

Honestly? Stealth is a crutch, plain and simple. Learn to play without it, and that’s where the real skill takes places.

Viking Jorun.5413:

Honestly? Stealth is a crutch, plain and simple. Learn to play without it, and that’s where the real skill takes places.

They’re nerfing builds that don’t use it too though. :x Because people think dodging is OP too. How do we play then when everything is apparently OP?

Doggie.3184:

Viking Jorun.5413:

Honestly? Stealth is a crutch, plain and simple. Learn to play without it, and that’s where the real skill takes places.

They’re nerfing builds that don’t use it too though. :x Because people think dodging is OP too. How do we play then when everything is apparently OP?

PvE? ;(

Viking Jorun.5413:

Honestly? Stealth is a crutch, plain and simple. Learn to play without it, and that’s where the real skill takes places.

Thanks for the advice. Going to work on my no-stealth backstab thief in order to get some real skills.

try playing a no stealth thief. It will help you l2p.

Shinjo.6092:

Viking Jorun.5413:

Honestly? Stealth is a crutch, plain and simple. Learn to play without it, and that’s where the real skill takes places.

Thanks for the advice. Going to work on my no-stealth backstab thief in order to get some real skills.

Good. You shouldn’t rely on stealth to get you anywhere in the game. No other class does. Even those that have access to stealth have other options for when it’s on CD or they’re in Revealed.

Viking Jorun.5413:

Shinjo.6092:

Viking Jorun.5413:

Honestly? Stealth is a crutch, plain and simple. Learn to play without it, and that’s where the real skill takes places.

Thanks for the advice. Going to work on my no-stealth backstab thief in order to get some real skills.

Good. You shouldn’t rely on stealth to get you anywhere in the game. No other class does. Even those that have access to stealth have other options for when it’s on CD or they’re in Revealed.

Right over your head. There is no Backstab without stealth. Also, those classes that don’t use stealth are designed around not having stealth.
Mesmer has 3 traits and 4 skills pertaining to stealth; Engie has 1 skill, one trait and one combo; Ranger has 1 skill and 2 traits; and Thief has 5 skills, 2 combos, 14 traits and a class mechanic devoted to stealth.