Guild Wars 2

Excalibur.9748:

Xsorus.2507:

That’s not a draw back.

Cause they’re not doing damage to you.

Esp when Stealth gives you so many benefits.

Now if Stealth didn’t let you heal/remove conditions you might have a point, Because The other person would be getting those benefits while you weren’t.

But considering most thieves can stealth at half health, and come out 4 seconds later with full health and all the conditions removed off of them, You’re not getting a drawback by stealthing.

You have to trait for heal on stealth. And classes like warrior with healing signet can heal while the thief is healing in stealth so like I said, the drawback is that the enemy is healing while you’re doing 0 damage.

Another drawback is that you can’t cap objectives while stealthed.

Those 2 drawbacks combined is why S/D is superior to D/P in sPvP.

Also…there is NO guarantee whatsoever that you won’t be damaged during stealth. I can think of many situations why a thief might be damaged while stealthed. It’s not an invincibility mode. I agree if stealth = invincibility then yea it’s OP.

I never said anything about S/D or D/P and sPvP (and in sPvP is actually nerfed compared to World vs World)

Also are you really trying to say that the heal isn’t powerful because Warriors are overpowered right now with healing signet? News flash, Warriors are overpowered, That doesn’t make Stealth any less over the top.

And short of sPvP, unless you’ve gotten rooted before hand or stunned before you went in stealth, You shouldn’t be getting hit.

Maugetarr.6823:

Xsorus.2507:

That’s not a draw back.

Cause they’re not doing damage to you.

Esp when Stealth gives you so many benefits.

Now if Stealth didn’t let you heal/remove conditions you might have a point, Because The other person would be getting those benefits while you weren’t.

But considering most thieves can stealth at half health, and come out 4 seconds later with full health and all the conditions removed off of them, You’re not getting a drawback by stealthing.

How do thieves get to full health 4 seconds later? The heal in stealth is only about 330 HPS meaning about 1300 or so health by the end of that. If you have more than 1 damaging condition on you (very likely against engis and necros) all you’re effectively doing is canceling one out until it might get removed at the end of 3 seconds. Other professions have both better passive and active condi removal. Lets take cleansing ire on the warrior for example (comparable since its in their toughness line also); cleansing ire rewards the warrior for being more aggressive instead of backing off, resulting in 3 conditions removed every 7 3/4 seconds while encouraging them to attack for the condition clear. It’s the equivalent to us getting the benefits of ‘while in stealth’ to ‘upon revealed’ instead. That would cause you to benefit from keeping up pressure rather than having to drop pressure 50% or so of the time to gain a noticeable benefit from traiting into stealth.

A. a 1300 Point Heal every few seconds is incredibly powerful. Just look at warriors, who don’t stealth, and you can see how a heal every couple seconds is powerful.

B. You have access to a Heal that removes Most of the damaging conditions off of you, You have a very good Condition Removal ability with the cleanse while in stealth as well. If you’re dying because of conditions that’s on you.

C. Cleansing Ire is incredibly powerful, But then again Warriors are over the top right now, If you want to compare your Cleaning Ability, look at Rangers. We remove 3 conditions every 10 seconds. This is a GM trait, You can remove 4 Conditions every 10 Seconds (5 if you’re really lucky) this is an Adept Trait. All it requires you to do is Stealth, which you’re doing anyway.

If you want to see how powerful Stealth is with these abilities tacked onto them, Don’t drop 30 points in Shadow Arts, and run around WvW for a bit.

Xsorus.2507:

Maugetarr.6823:

Xsorus.2507:

That’s not a draw back.

Cause they’re not doing damage to you.

Esp when Stealth gives you so many benefits.

Now if Stealth didn’t let you heal/remove conditions you might have a point, Because The other person would be getting those benefits while you weren’t.

But considering most thieves can stealth at half health, and come out 4 seconds later with full health and all the conditions removed off of them, You’re not getting a drawback by stealthing.

How do thieves get to full health 4 seconds later? The heal in stealth is only about 330 HPS meaning about 1300 or so health by the end of that. If you have more than 1 damaging condition on you (very likely against engis and necros) all you’re effectively doing is canceling one out until it might get removed at the end of 3 seconds. Other professions have both better passive and active condi removal. Lets take cleansing ire on the warrior for example (comparable since its in their toughness line also); cleansing ire rewards the warrior for being more aggressive instead of backing off, resulting in 3 conditions removed every 7 3/4 seconds while encouraging them to attack for the condition clear. It’s the equivalent to us getting the benefits of ‘while in stealth’ to ‘upon revealed’ instead. That would cause you to benefit from keeping up pressure rather than having to drop pressure 50% or so of the time to gain a noticeable benefit from traiting into stealth.

A. a 1300 Point Heal every few seconds is incredibly powerful. Just look at warriors, who don’t stealth, and you can see how a heal every couple seconds is powerful.

B. You have access to a Heal that removes Most of the damaging conditions off of you, You have a very good Condition Removal ability with the cleanse while in stealth as well. If you’re dying because of conditions that’s on you.

C. Cleansing Ire is incredibly powerful, But then again Warriors are over the top right now, If you want to compare your Cleaning Ability, look at Rangers. We remove 3 conditions every 10 seconds. This is a GM trait, You can remove 4 Conditions every 10 Seconds (5 if you’re really lucky) this is an Adept Trait. All it requires you to do is Stealth, which you’re doing anyway.

If you want to see how powerful Stealth is with these abilities tacked onto them, Don’t drop 30 points in Shadow Arts, and run around WvW for a bit.

So let me understand you correctly, your position is that thieves are notably weaker than warriors, so we should nerf thieves more?

Xsorus.2507:

If you want to see how powerful Stealth is with these abilities tacked onto them, Don’t drop 30 points in Shadow Arts, and run around WvW for a bit.

I don’t run any points in SA…. I kill faster so fights end sooner so I don’t notice the loss of those “powerful” abilities. Trait out stealth and get lower damage or have less sustain but more damage… almost sounds balanced huh?

I like how the ranger trolls came out of the woodwork. I’m surprised I can even read these posts with all the petting zoos running around. We need a dev that actually plays thief, because it is clear that people who don’t main it really don’t know enough to be commenting about the profession.

Hype.8032:

Xsorus.2507:

If you want to see how powerful Stealth is with these abilities tacked onto them, Don’t drop 30 points in Shadow Arts, and run around WvW for a bit.

I don’t run any points in SA…. I kill faster so fights end sooner so I don’t notice the loss of those “powerful” abilities. Trait out stealth and get lower damage or have less sustain but more damage… almost sounds balanced huh?

I like how the ranger trolls came out of the woodwork. I’m surprised I can even read these posts with all the petting zoos running around. We need a dev that actually plays thief, because it is clear that people who don’t main it really don’t know enough to be commenting about the profession.

You’re aware I have a thief right?

Shemsu.8721:

Xsorus.2507:

Maugetarr.6823:

Xsorus.2507:

That’s not a draw back.

Cause they’re not doing damage to you.

Esp when Stealth gives you so many benefits.

Now if Stealth didn’t let you heal/remove conditions you might have a point, Because The other person would be getting those benefits while you weren’t.

But considering most thieves can stealth at half health, and come out 4 seconds later with full health and all the conditions removed off of them, You’re not getting a drawback by stealthing.

How do thieves get to full health 4 seconds later? The heal in stealth is only about 330 HPS meaning about 1300 or so health by the end of that. If you have more than 1 damaging condition on you (very likely against engis and necros) all you’re effectively doing is canceling one out until it might get removed at the end of 3 seconds. Other professions have both better passive and active condi removal. Lets take cleansing ire on the warrior for example (comparable since its in their toughness line also); cleansing ire rewards the warrior for being more aggressive instead of backing off, resulting in 3 conditions removed every 7 3/4 seconds while encouraging them to attack for the condition clear. It’s the equivalent to us getting the benefits of ‘while in stealth’ to ‘upon revealed’ instead. That would cause you to benefit from keeping up pressure rather than having to drop pressure 50% or so of the time to gain a noticeable benefit from traiting into stealth.

A. a 1300 Point Heal every few seconds is incredibly powerful. Just look at warriors, who don’t stealth, and you can see how a heal every couple seconds is powerful.

B. You have access to a Heal that removes Most of the damaging conditions off of you, You have a very good Condition Removal ability with the cleanse while in stealth as well. If you’re dying because of conditions that’s on you.

C. Cleansing Ire is incredibly powerful, But then again Warriors are over the top right now, If you want to compare your Cleaning Ability, look at Rangers. We remove 3 conditions every 10 seconds. This is a GM trait, You can remove 4 Conditions every 10 Seconds (5 if you’re really lucky) this is an Adept Trait. All it requires you to do is Stealth, which you’re doing anyway.

If you want to see how powerful Stealth is with these abilities tacked onto them, Don’t drop 30 points in Shadow Arts, and run around WvW for a bit.

So let me understand you correctly, your position is that thieves are notably weaker than warriors, so we should nerf thieves more?

My position is just because the warrior is powerful right now, Doesn’t mean you’re not equally broken.

Everyone is noticeably weaker than Warriors Right now. Warriors also need a nerf because of this.

But that doesn’t mean you’re not broken as well in some ways. Stealth Needs Counters, Viable Counters….

Xsorus.2507:

Hype.8032:

Xsorus.2507:

If you want to see how powerful Stealth is with these abilities tacked onto them, Don’t drop 30 points in Shadow Arts, and run around WvW for a bit.

I don’t run any points in SA…. I kill faster so fights end sooner so I don’t notice the loss of those “powerful” abilities. Trait out stealth and get lower damage or have less sustain but more damage… almost sounds balanced huh?

I like how the ranger trolls came out of the woodwork. I’m surprised I can even read these posts with all the petting zoos running around. We need a dev that actually plays thief, because it is clear that people who don’t main it really don’t know enough to be commenting about the profession.

You’re aware I have a thief right?

Poorly played p/d doesn’t count imo.

Xsorus.2507:

Maugetarr.6823:

Xsorus.2507:

That’s not a draw back.

Cause they’re not doing damage to you.

Esp when Stealth gives you so many benefits.

Now if Stealth didn’t let you heal/remove conditions you might have a point, Because The other person would be getting those benefits while you weren’t.

But considering most thieves can stealth at half health, and come out 4 seconds later with full health and all the conditions removed off of them, You’re not getting a drawback by stealthing.

How do thieves get to full health 4 seconds later? The heal in stealth is only about 330 HPS meaning about 1300 or so health by the end of that. If you have more than 1 damaging condition on you (very likely against engis and necros) all you’re effectively doing is canceling one out until it might get removed at the end of 3 seconds. Other professions have both better passive and active condi removal. Lets take cleansing ire on the warrior for example (comparable since its in their toughness line also); cleansing ire rewards the warrior for being more aggressive instead of backing off, resulting in 3 conditions removed every 7 3/4 seconds while encouraging them to attack for the condition clear. It’s the equivalent to us getting the benefits of ‘while in stealth’ to ‘upon revealed’ instead. That would cause you to benefit from keeping up pressure rather than having to drop pressure 50% or so of the time to gain a noticeable benefit from traiting into stealth.

A. a 1300 Point Heal every few seconds is incredibly powerful. Just look at warriors, who don’t stealth, and you can see how a heal every couple seconds is powerful.

B. You have access to a Heal that removes Most of the damaging conditions off of you, You have a very good Condition Removal ability with the cleanse while in stealth as well. If you’re dying because of conditions that’s on you.

C. Cleansing Ire is incredibly powerful, But then again Warriors are over the top right now, If you want to compare your Cleaning Ability, look at Rangers. We remove 3 conditions every 10 seconds. This is a GM trait, You can remove 4 Conditions every 10 Seconds (5 if you’re really lucky) this is an Adept Trait. All it requires you to do is Stealth, which you’re doing anyway.

If you want to see how powerful Stealth is with these abilities tacked onto them, Don’t drop 30 points in Shadow Arts, and run around WvW for a bit.

A)Yes, thats 1300 over a 7 second span if you include the reveal time. 188ish HPS (assuming you stay in stealth for over 3 seconds to gain the benefit from shadow’s embrace + 1300 was based off staying in stealth the full duration) is just slightly above that of regen which is fairly easily accessible by a number of classes. The tradeoff though is that for those 4 seconds the thief can’t apply pressure to their opponent.

B) Yes, we do have a heal that removes burning, poison, and bleeding upon it’s use. That only leaves confusion and torment limiting your actions and mobility. Furthermore, using that heal, you miss out on withdraw which removes immobilize, cripple, and chill which are arguably more deadly in the short term as they are usually followed up by a burst.

C)With the same assumptions made from the first part, the thief can only remove 4 conditions every 13 seconds, assuming stealth immediately after reveal wears off. To accomplish this, again they can’t pressure their enemy in the process.

So it seems that traiting entirely into stealth brings up thieves to barely be equivalent to some of the other regeneration and cleanses that other classes have while simultaneously cutting their damage output to nothing during that duration to gain said benefits.

Hype.8032:

Xsorus.2507:

Hype.8032:

Xsorus.2507:

If you want to see how powerful Stealth is with these abilities tacked onto them, Don’t drop 30 points in Shadow Arts, and run around WvW for a bit.

I don’t run any points in SA…. I kill faster so fights end sooner so I don’t notice the loss of those “powerful” abilities. Trait out stealth and get lower damage or have less sustain but more damage… almost sounds balanced huh?

I like how the ranger trolls came out of the woodwork. I’m surprised I can even read these posts with all the petting zoos running around. We need a dev that actually plays thief, because it is clear that people who don’t main it really don’t know enough to be commenting about the profession.

You’re aware I have a thief right?

Poorly played p/d doesn’t count imo.

I’ve not played P/D in sometime, S/D and D/P is where its at.

Maugetarr.6823:

Xsorus.2507:

Maugetarr.6823:

Xsorus.2507:

That’s not a draw back.

Cause they’re not doing damage to you.

Esp when Stealth gives you so many benefits.

Now if Stealth didn’t let you heal/remove conditions you might have a point, Because The other person would be getting those benefits while you weren’t.

But considering most thieves can stealth at half health, and come out 4 seconds later with full health and all the conditions removed off of them, You’re not getting a drawback by stealthing.

.

A. a 1300 Point Heal every few seconds is incredibly powerful. Just look at warriors, who don’t stealth, and you can see how a heal every couple seconds is powerful.

B. You have access to a Heal that removes Most of the damaging conditions off of you, You have a very good Condition Removal ability with the cleanse while in stealth as well. If you’re dying because of conditions that’s on you.

C. Cleansing Ire is incredibly powerful, But then again Warriors are over the top right now, If you want to compare your Cleaning Ability, look at Rangers. We remove 3 conditions every 10 seconds. This is a GM trait, You can remove 4 Conditions every 10 Seconds (5 if you’re really lucky) this is an Adept Trait. All it requires you to do is Stealth, which you’re doing anyway.

If you want to see how powerful Stealth is with these abilities tacked onto them, Don’t drop 30 points in Shadow Arts, and run around WvW for a bit.

A)Yes, thats 1300 over a 7 second span if you include the reveal time. 188ish HPS (assuming you stay in stealth for over 3 seconds to gain the benefit from shadow’s embrace + 1300 was based off staying in stealth the full duration) is just slightly above that of regen which is fairly easily accessible by a number of classes. The tradeoff though is that for those 4 seconds the thief can’t apply pressure to their opponent.

B) Yes, we do have a heal that removes burning, poison, and bleeding upon it’s use. That only leaves confusion and torment limiting your actions and mobility. Furthermore, using that heal, you miss out on withdraw which removes immobilize, cripple, and chill which are arguably more deadly in the short term as they are usually followed up by a burst.

C)With the same assumptions made from the first part, the thief can only remove 4 conditions every 13 seconds, assuming stealth immediately after reveal wears off. To accomplish this, again they can’t pressure their enemy in the process.

So it seems that traiting entirely into stealth brings up thieves to barely be equivalent to some of the other regeneration and cleanses that other classes have while simultaneously cutting their damage output to nothing during that duration to gain said benefits.

A. You’re aware that 188 HPS is actually very good right? To give you an idea, I get that every 3 seconds with Natural Healing on my Ranger. That’s actually better then Signet of the Wild and actual ability when i’m specced fully in Healing Power, Do you wanna know how much it heals in stealth with 1k Healing Power? Its a little over 400 a second. I don’t think you quite understand how powerful that Talent is in comparison to other talents of equal cost.

B. So you have a choice between removing damaging Conditions, and letting your removal take care of non damaging conditions (and really Confusion and torment, Confusion is a problem if you’re an idiot, and Torment isn’t a problem at all) or Taking care of your non damaging conditions and letting the stealth take care the damaging ones. So you’re not screwed over in anyway.

C. You stealth, you remove 2 Conditions, That’s 3 seconds, you come out, in 3 more seconds you can stealth again (4 if SPvP) and instantly remove the 3rd condition, and wait 3 more seconds to remove the 4th Condition, you can do that in 9 seconds….4 conditions every 10 seconds isn’t not bad for a passive, Its slightly better then Empathetic bond that a Ranger has, which doesn’t actually remove the conditions, but transfers them to our pet which can actually hurt rangers damage (if its a snare/root/chill for example, that’s a damage reduction for the ranger as the pet won’t hit) This is of course completely ignoring the condition removals you get from your heal. Which is comparable to probably Healing Spring on the Ranger…Though HS is group oriented and we can’t pick what conditions it removes.

Xsorus.2507:

removed for length limitations

A) Considering for the same healing power (300 since thats what it requires to get the trait) regen heals for 167, it’s pretty mediocre. Thats a difference of about 20 hps assuming you stay in stealth for up to 4 seconds. If you only stay in for 3 seconds, adding the time you are revealed (assuming wvw) that gain drops to about 165. Unless you’re great at timing (making sure stealth drops naturally at the time of your hit so you gain that 4th second) that’s worse than regen which doesn’t require you to stop attacking.

B) Confusion can be a problem if you have a channel on you that’s still hitting you in stealth which you need to dodge. Torment ticks at 150% of bleed while you’re moving (which a thief needs to do constantly). Granted withdraw vs HiS is a tradeoff, but don’t assume that every thief can remove damaging conditions with their heal because there are other variables that need to be taken into account.

C)For drawn out battles you have to include that reveal time after the second condition remove because during the next 10 second time frame you’ll do worse in terms of condition removal. If you want, we can say come back to saying you drop stealth immediately after the second removal, meaning that if you include reveal, you remove 4 conditions every 12 seconds. Furthermore, it’s only sort of passive in terms of removal. To use it you have to enter stealth (granted there are a number of ways) but it won’t work passively unless you actively engage stealth.

My original point stands though. With stealth, you get benefits comparable to other classes for the tradeoff of not attacking. This isn’t to say that the stealth abilities aren’t strong, (in fact we don’t have many other traits in other lines which could accomplish similar levels of effectiveness which is where the problem with thieves stems from) but it does have its own drawbacks.

Xsorus.2507:

Maugetarr.6823:

Xsorus.2507:

That’s not a draw back.

Cause they’re not doing damage to you.

Esp when Stealth gives you so many benefits.

Now if Stealth didn’t let you heal/remove conditions you might have a point, Because The other person would be getting those benefits while you weren’t.

But considering most thieves can stealth at half health, and come out 4 seconds later with full health and all the conditions removed off of them, You’re not getting a drawback by stealthing.

How do thieves get to full health 4 seconds later? The heal in stealth is only about 330 HPS meaning about 1300 or so health by the end of that. If you have more than 1 damaging condition on you (very likely against engis and necros) all you’re effectively doing is canceling one out until it might get removed at the end of 3 seconds. Other professions have both better passive and active condi removal. Lets take cleansing ire on the warrior for example (comparable since its in their toughness line also); cleansing ire rewards the warrior for being more aggressive instead of backing off, resulting in 3 conditions removed every 7 3/4 seconds while encouraging them to attack for the condition clear. It’s the equivalent to us getting the benefits of ‘while in stealth’ to ‘upon revealed’ instead. That would cause you to benefit from keeping up pressure rather than having to drop pressure 50% or so of the time to gain a noticeable benefit from traiting into stealth.

A. a 1300 Point Heal every few seconds is incredibly powerful. Just look at warriors, who don’t stealth, and you can see how a heal every couple seconds is powerful.

B. You have access to a Heal that removes Most of the damaging conditions off of you, You have a very good Condition Removal ability with the cleanse while in stealth as well. If you’re dying because of conditions that’s on you.

C. Cleansing Ire is incredibly powerful, But then again Warriors are over the top right now, If you want to compare your Cleaning Ability, look at Rangers. We remove 3 conditions every 10 seconds. This is a GM trait, You can remove 4 Conditions every 10 Seconds (5 if you’re really lucky) this is an Adept Trait. All it requires you to do is Stealth, which you’re doing anyway.

If you want to see how powerful Stealth is with these abilities tacked onto them, Don’t drop 30 points in Shadow Arts, and run around WvW for a bit.

I don’t drop 30 points in shadow arts, and I run around WvW a lot. Stealth does have drawbacks (hence why I don’t rely on it for offense)…and I already listed them.

As if rangers didnt destroy thieves already. I understand this game is not based around 1v1s… but this game is VERY imbalanced 1v1. Burst classes can hardly kill anything tanky 1v1. Especially since condis are OP

The Sic ‘Em buff is whatevs to me. Any thief who complains is clearly a class hopper. Get used to being one of the most hated classes. I’ll be on the field trollin’ with my ports.

Demonts.4593:

As if rangers didnt destroy thieves already. I understand this game is not based around 1v1s… but this game is VERY imbalanced 1v1. Burst classes can hardly kill anything tanky 1v1. Especially since condis are OP

Really? Ever heard of dagger storm? Just do your opener, beat the ranger a little bit, then dagger storm and use steal if he goes away. Hes dead.

In short, the ability to completely disable an entire class mechanic is pretty ridiculous.

What’s the point of making small balance tweaks here and there, if you’re then going to make a sweeping change that removes a fundamental class function?

Also, IMO, anyone defending sweeping changes like this to any class based on 1v1 ability needs a swift punch to the nuts.

If you want 1v1, go play Mortal Kombat. What’s the point of playing “team” PvP or large-scale “world vs. world” in a “massively multiplayer” game… if you’re then going to balance for 1v1 and solo play?

Flim.4608:

In short, the ability to completely disable an entire class mechanic is pretty ridiculous.

thief class mechanics:
steal (main one… thats affected by trait lines… but weak)
initiative (really the main one)
dual skills
stealth attacks (which sic em wont completely disable – dont be dramatic)

but rangers could throw that argument right back at you, have you seen what pets do when a thief stealths? kitten all. (except howl… which is useful for getting out of SR)

Linguistically Inept.6583:

Flim.4608:

In short, the ability to completely disable an entire class mechanic is pretty ridiculous.

thief class mechanics:
steal (main one… thats affected by trait lines… but weak)
initiative (really the main one)
dual skills
stealth attacks (which sic em wont completely disable – dont be dramatic)

but rangers could throw that argument right back at you, have you seen what pets do when a thief stealths? kitten all. (except howl… which is useful for getting out of SR)

They continue their channelled attack hitting you with a leap or snare? Happens more often than you think.

Linguistically Inept.6583:

stealth attacks (which sic em wont completely disable – dont be dramatic)

Sic em will apply revealed. Revealed completely disables stealth.

I’m not saying it’s going to be up permanently and rendering thieves unable to use stealth forever. (Although 10s duration, 40s CD means it only takes 2 rangers for 50% uptime.) I’m saying that it completely disables the entire class mechanic for its duration.

but rangers could throw that argument right back at you, have you seen what pets do when a thief stealths? kitten all. (except howl… which is useful for getting out of SR)

This isn’t a valid comparison except in 1v1, and 1v1 balance is utterly irrelevant (and impossible to achieve) IMO.

Pets do nothing to the thief for the 3-4s duration of his stealth, sure. But they’re still perfectly able to function against any other target during that time. Versus the revealed debuff, which completely disables stealth against all opponents.

• Red pet is attacking a blue guardian. Blue thief attacks the pet (not that he ever would, but for comparative purposes) and stealths… doesn’t matter. Stealth doesn’t affect the pet or red ranger.
• Blue thief is attacking a red guardian. Red pet attacks the thief with Sic ’Em… thief is screwed against the red pet, red guardian, red ranger, and any other nearby red enemies.

Sorry, no stealth nerf for you. If thats the case, no pet for rangers, no illusions for mes, no minions for necros, medium armour for warriors, no heal for guardians. Just balance the game so much that you may as well make one class, ridiculous!

Go play as a thief, learn the weak points like most thieves have and get on with it!

Shemsu.8721:

Rvb.8297:

This buff to sic em is not going to change anything, i have never ever seen a thief get the full 4 s of revealed, culling issues and all… (or whatever its called). A good thief should never lose to a ranger in a 1v1 (unless he’s bunkering). But no build should ever be able to win against a bunker in a 1v1 anyways… And regarding the ‘nerf’ to larcenous strike: evade, decent to good damage and boon STEALING is a bit OP for a two skill combination. Im surprised they kept it at 1 boon… And i also don’t see why only a few classes should have boon removal….

First off, 4 second reveal is in Spvp, wvw/pve have 3 second reveal, secondly, there is NO way at all in game to reduce revealed, so if you played spvp you sure as hell did see a thief get 4 second reveal, you simply cant count well is all. Third, there is no such thing as culling any longer, it was removed, read patch notes. FS/LS does not do decent to good damage more like bad/mediocre damage, is one of the shortest evades in game and it was made to steal two boons because it wasnt useful when it removed one. Many classes (including yours mr ranger) can reapply boons as fast as they are stripped, and thats with skills like null field, corrupt boon (if 2 boons removed is OP how is ALL of them removed ok?), so changed to 1 boon removed means it is no longer a counter to boon builds, since they can reapply faster than you can remove them, hence it will be useless again

There’s no culling in pve or wvw.

Culling only got removed in pve and wvw, so yeah i’ve never seen a thief get the full 4 secs of revealed. I see black lines (thief pops out of stealth), wait 2 secs and then i see the thief. And about thief nerfs, most of these nerfs were very needed, especially the early ones. If you do not acknowledge this, you are obviously trolling. In the rangers case, not so much. Lowering shortbow dmg, lowering pet dmg, zephyrs speed nerf, quickness nerf (rangers have easiest acces to quickness), natural healing nerf (doesnt heal pet anymore, might be bugged) which now only heals for 133 (for player once every 3s) which is worse than regeneration with no healing power, hardly worth it to be a top tier trait. And if you think larcenous strike and flanking strikes dmg is bad, checkout ranger’s sword dmg,… And I seriously doubt sickem is going to inflict 10 s of revealed, probably would just trigger the revealed, so like ‘4’ s of revealed… I doubt it is going to make a difference…

Flim.4608:

wvw 1v1 vs thieves (as the most common roamer) happens very often

3-4s… but still much higher potential stealth uptime than sic em

they’re only screwed if they rely 100… ugh my keyboard wont let my type the percent sign… need a new one… on stealth for defense

Rage.8429:

Go play as a thief, learn the weak points like most thieves have and get on with it!

this is about the weak points of ranger… absolutely no burst (outside of gimicky signet build) to down a thief when they appear (with only longbow and GS really able to hit a stelathed thief… but with kitten damage because ranger has kitten damage with the pet as compensation), whilst giving team support (and finally some utility in wvw aside from ‘soft cc’)

Rvb.8297:

Culling only got removed in pve and wvw, so yeah i’ve never seen a thief get the full 4 secs of revealed. I see black lines (thief pops out of stealth), wait 2 secs and then i see the thief. And about thief nerfs, most of these nerfs were very needed, especially the early ones. If you do not acknowledge this, you are obviously trolling. In the rangers case, not so much. Lowering shortbow dmg, lowering pet dmg, zephyrs speed nerf, quickness nerf (rangers have easiest acces to quickness), natural healing nerf (doesnt heal pet anymore, might be bugged) which now only heals for 133 (for player once every 3s) which is worse than regeneration with no healing power, hardly worth it to be a top tier trait. And if you think larcenous strike and flanking strikes dmg is bad, checkout ranger’s sword dmg,… And I seriously doubt sickem is going to inflict 10 s of revealed, probably would just trigger the revealed, so like ‘4’ s of revealed… I doubt it is going to make a difference…

Culling was never in sPvP to begin with.

Can we make basilisk venom apply unbreakable petrified to pets for 10 seconds? I mean it’s nearly the same thing.

There’s counterplay, and there’s “no, screw you, you lose an entire trait line”

Between stealth being given out like candy to every class, increasing addition of revealed mechanics, and just general one step forward two steps back class adjustments, I’m wondering who in the world is still actually complaining about thieves?

Personally, I abandoned stealth a while ago and have been getting systematically buffes playing evasion unicorn, but honestly, whatever happenned to stealth being a key defensive mechanic?

You could argue that sic ‘em has a 40 second recharge, but ten whole seconds of revealed from a single source? in group engagements that’s a death sentance to anyone heavily invested in stealth as their survival line. If we’re going down this road, revealed needs to be reworked as a mechanic so that some portion of the thief’s survivability traits can be maintained when outside of stealth.

Point-revealed makes sense and is appropriate in systems where you have semi-perma stealth, and it’s generally used as a preparatory action, but stealth in GW2 is largely defensive and reactionary.

I like the idea of more classes having unique meta-effects like mesmers have portals, guardians have bubbles, etc. and this is a decent one, but it’s also one that shouldn’t be implemented without giving thieves something equally meta-defining.

Venom share doesn’t cut it. It might have if basilisk venom was still unbreakable, but as is it’s just decent condition support for people who already have those conditions avaliable. Shadow refuge doesn’t cut it as the stealth it grants is being more and more marginalized by stealth and revealed proliferation.

How about it? How about something unique for thieves to add to a group? Then feel free to continue marginalizing stealth.

PopeUrban.2578:

Can we make basilisk venom apply unbreakable petrified to pets for 10 seconds? I mean it’s nearly the same thing.

pets dont have stunbreaks… so it does unless they have stability -RaO or that never used porcine trait

Linguistically Inept.6583:

PopeUrban.2578:

Can we make basilisk venom apply unbreakable petrified to pets for 10 seconds? I mean it’s nearly the same thing.

pets dont have stunbreaks… so it does unless they have stability -RaO or that never used porcine trait

However, there are some skills/traits than can stunbreak allies. There are no skills that can remove revealed from allies. Also, BV only lasts 1 second. The proposed reveal from Sic ’Em lasts the full duration of the effect (maximum 10 seconds)

Actually, you know what? How about making stun breaks also cleanse revealed? Wouldn’t be so overpowered I think.

PopeUrban.2578:

Actually, you know what? How about making stun breaks also cleanse revealed? Wouldn’t be so overpowered I think.

no. absolutely horrible idea without several other changes (namely traits and sneak attacks)

If this makes it into the game they should get rid of the Anti-Stealth traps or atleast make our non-stealth skills a bit more useful. Let’s face it, as soon as you go revealed you’re pretty much screwed.. all you can do when you run into an Anti-Stealth trap is spam Heartseeker in the opposite direction because you’ll get destroyed by pretty much any class 1v1 with no stealth.

I’m all for counters, definitely time to nerf D/P imo… but you need to find a right balance. Thief with no stealth is completely harmless, best you can do is spam Heartseeker or Vital Shot.

You think that because anti-stealth traps are in any way useful against thieves?

i never hit anti stealth traps. just be observant.

As a ranger, I’m very Excited that we will finally given the Priveledge of Courageously standing up to the Tyrant: Thief.

The Resistance will Never Cease!

Until we see the day of

Victory!!

Rangers,

Once and for All

Let us Unite and Honor our Fallen Brothers and Sisters.
—————————————————————————————————————————————————————

(Image- Trademark-Arena.net- Gw2)

Burnfall.9573:

As a ranger, I’m very Excited that we will finally be given the Priveledge of standing up to the Tyrant: Thief.

The Resistance will Never Cease!

Until we see the day of

Victory!!

Rangers,

Once and for All

Let us Unite and Honor our Fallen Brothers

You still die to d/d conditions.

As a ranger I have to comment on this.

Stealth is an ability like any other and deserves some sort of counter. I rely on knock backs and evasive techniques to keep my enemies away but a block or reflect stops my knock back and many classes can break the distance between me and them easily so why shouldn’t there be a stealth counter if anything my build can do can be countered?

That Being said as a ranger I’ll never use sick em cause using a ulitity slot for a reveal is a waste IMO. Especially since a thieves stealth is already normally very predictable so I don’t think you’ll see a lot this ultilitybeing used. The rangers now will prob be instagibbed before they get a chance to make use of it anyway now making us the main target of thieves.

Zacchary.6183:

Burnfall.9573:

As a ranger, I’m very Excited that we will finally be given the Priveledge of standing up to the Tyrant: Thief.

The Resistance will Never Cease!

Until we see the day of

Victory!!

Rangers,

Once and for All

Let us Unite and Honor our Fallen Brothers

You still die to d/d conditions.

I bet my dad could totally beat your dad. Na-na-naaaaaahhhh! Na-na-naaaaaahhhh! Na-na-naaaaaahhhh!

nagymbear.5280:

Zacchary.6183:

Burnfall.9573:

As a ranger, I’m very Excited that we will finally be given the Priveledge of standing up to the Tyrant: Thief.

The Resistance will Never Cease!

Until we see the day of

Victory!!

Rangers,

Once and for All

Let us Unite and Honor our Fallen Brothers

You still die to d/d conditions.

I bet my dad could totally beat your dad. Na-na-naaaaaahhhh! Na-na-naaaaaahhhh! Na-na-naaaaaahhhh!

Your mom goes to college!

We have yet to see exactly how this will operate, but I only think it’s fair. Ranger has long had the short end of the stick. Thief counters ranger pretty hard currently, even trap rangers and the like. I think it will reward more skilled players who read their opponent better, and punish players who had been getting away with sloppy stealthing. I always enjoy changes that up the required skill level of our game. For instance, the 4 second revealed change made me very happy, and I play thief.

Zacchary.6183:

nagymbear.5280:

Zacchary.6183:

Burnfall.9573:

As a ranger, I’m very Excited that we will finally be given the Priveledge of standing up to the Tyrant: Thief.

The Resistance will Never Cease!

Until we see the day of

Victory!!

Rangers,

Once and for All

Let us Unite and Honor our Fallen Brothers

You still die to d/d conditions.

I bet my dad could totally beat your dad. Na-na-naaaaaahhhh! Na-na-naaaaaahhhh! Na-na-naaaaaahhhh!

Your mom goes to college!

You’re a chicken!

decent thieves will just laugh this off. noobs will have to l2p or leave.

Sanduskel.1850:

decent thieves will just laugh this off. noobs will have to l2p or leave.

Too bad we can’t get a change to make the trolls leave. You wouldn’t be missed

no need for petty personal attacks. learn to play without perma stealth as the rest of us have.

Sanduskel.1850:

no need for petty personal attacks. learn to play without perma stealth as the rest of us have.

What if we use S/D as our main weapon set and still find this a dumb idea?

that’s fine. it’s your opinion. alll i can say is that i do fine on my thief without perma stealth.

Sanduskel.1850:

that’s fine. it’s your opinion. alll i can say is that i do fine on my thief without perma stealth.

It doesn’t only affect perma stealth though.

Maugetarr.6823:

Sanduskel.1850:

that’s fine. it’s your opinion. alll i can say is that i do fine on my thief without perma stealth.

It doesn’t only affect perma stealth though.

The only problem with it may be hide in shadows which does too much in one skill. It may be a hard counter to that, but I still think only a small fraction of rangers will run sicem.

The issue is not how many rangers will run this, but rather that this is a way to start putting this in the game, which indicates they are going to continue adding such abilities to other classes. what happens when warriors get a banner that auto-reveals people within its radius, or mesmers get a trait that attaches revealed to glamour aoe’s etc etc.

And for the record Sanduskel, how is it ok for you to insult and ridicule everyone that disagrees with you then say there is no need for personal attacks. Also this change wont affect me personally, i run either s/p-sb or s/d-sb. I debate against changes like this because they are bad design principle, as it continues it leads to bad, boring gameplay.

So rangers get an I win button against stealth builds, so maybe we should give necro’s an I win skill against evasion builds. Guardians get a skill that disables deathshroud, etc etc. I dont need a computer or the internet to play rock/paper/scissors

Shemsu.8721:

The issue is not how many rangers will run this, but rather that this is a way to start putting this in the game, which indicates they are going to continue adding such abilities to other classes.

I don’t get what is wrong with giving players a tool against stealth. There are tools against stuns, conditions even boons. I really don’t see how this will result in less interesting, more boring fights. I remember J. Sharp talking about active condi removal regarding rangers. He said he’d like to see more active play, where you try to force your opponent to use his cleansing, sort of a mind game. Thieves will still have evades, dodges, blinds, teleports to defend themselves for 3-4 seconds, and sic’em is on a 40s cooldown untraited, so I don’t see the problem here.

Giving a specific class a counter to stealth is just stupid in my opinion, and I think it’s the wrong kind of counter anyway. For me it would make perfect sense to nerf perma stealth in a different way, perhaps like making it impossible to stack stealth for more than 2 or 3 times?

nagymbear.5280:

Shemsu.8721:

The issue is not how many rangers will run this, but rather that this is a way to start putting this in the game, which indicates they are going to continue adding such abilities to other classes.

I don’t get what is wrong with giving players a tool against stealth. There are tools against stuns, conditions even boons. I really don’t see how this will result in less interesting, more boring fights. I remember J. Sharp talking about active condi removal regarding rangers. He said he’d like to see more active play, where you try to force your opponent to use his cleansing, sort of a mind game. Thieves will still have evades, dodges, blinds, teleports to defend themselves for 3-4 seconds, and sic’em is on a 40s cooldown untraited, so I don’t see the problem here.

Because It’s not a mindgame, It’s rock/paper/scissors, It’s boring. Stealth is not a boon or condition, it should not be treated as such. Also the duration of sic em is 10 seconds not 3-4.. big difference. This is no different than adding a skill which prevents clone summoning, atunement swap, etc. It relates an exclusive class mechanic and an entire traitline. It’s a bad direction to take development. It’s not counterplay It’s I win against stealth. There should be no anti class abilities like that ever

Okaishi.8320:

Giving a specific class a counter to stealth is just stupid in my opinion, and I think it’s the wrong kind of counter anyway. For me it would make perfect sense to nerf perma stealth in a different way, perhaps like making it impossible to stack stealth for more than 2 or 3 times?

Fixing d/p perma stealth is so easy, add a 3 second icd to infusion of shadow, problem solved. They aren’t trying to fix permastealth.