Guild Wars 2

Hi folks!

I understand p/p is a bad idea for wvwvw. But for some reason I still want to try it.

I’ve whipped up a build, linked below. It seems to look OK to me on paper.

Could someone please let me know where it falls down?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQJAqalsMp8pdPxzJsPNBPBtdCOQA4sETwzS3EA

Thanks for your opinions!

p/p is not viable because of lack of utility and mobility

Can’t check the build, but I’d say zerker armor, Knight rings and other trinkets zerker, with 20066 and SB as secondary set is a really fun spec to play. I use it from time to time in pvp and it’s entertaining ad hell!

p/p is viable. What is needed with p/p build is to focus on the various strengths and weaknesses and enhance those with the traits and utilities chosen.

Consider skills that give back INI just as example. In other sets this not as important but you should consider RFI as a skill and or hastened replenishment as a trait. RFI is a great gap opener and stun break which a p/p set will need and adds that 6 ini.

With withdraw as a heal you get another 4 ini from the heal which can really help in a pinch.

You can consider a build that focuses on returning health on an ongoing basis. These types of builds work best where there a skill that has multiple attacks in a short period of time such as “unload” or “Pistolwhip”. If you mix in venoms and leeching venoms you gain the utility that is missing and sustained heals. In a power build take venoms that CC over damage. One has to be very careful with this type of build to maintain range. If one wanted to go “all out” here use SOM/leeching venoms/omnomberry ghost as food runes of vampirism and IP. Enemies will melt to an unload.

I see more and more p/p in wvw and it works fine. That said I would advise that you will want to use a second weaponset as well such as shortbow to get that added utility if you find yourself lacking.

Currently I use no stealth at all in my p/p builds. It a challenge but a lot of fun.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQRAqa8Yl0Mpyp9Ox0J0PNBNhsdmGR8+a3taFA-TpBFwAPOBAd2fo9BBYxRAoaZAAPAAA

Is what I’ve used to keep the mobility and damage semi- consistent.

Overall it’s a very “spam” orientated build revolving on pressing 3 with some BPS in the mix. Its more of a fun build than a serious competitive build.

IMO, it’s the worst weapon set in the game, even in light of things like engineer’s weak pistol attacks.

People did make the trap build for p/p and p/d in the one thread. I haven’t tried it in WvW yet, but I figure if I’m going to be running the crappiest weapon set in the game, then I might as well be using some crappy utilities too.

I’m P/P….. with Blinding powder and Shadow step.
you ll be surprise many ppl dont know how to counter p/p.

not so great in 1v1. OK in group fight especially when AOE gone crazy.
Only problem is bunker. dps just not enough to kill them FAST.

Pinkcomet.2975:

I’m P/P….. with Blinding powder and Shadow step.
you ll be surprise many ppl dont know how to counter p/p.

not so great in 1v1. OK in group fight especially when AOE gone crazy.
Only problem is bunker. dps just not enough to kill them FAST.

I have found in 1v1 if you get the first attack off your chances go way up. With bunkers your timing on dodges and evades has to be perfect. P/p shines in group fights just as long as you avoid being focused down.

babazhook.6805:

Pinkcomet.2975:

I’m P/P….. with Blinding powder and Shadow step.
you ll be surprise many ppl dont know how to counter p/p.

not so great in 1v1. OK in group fight especially when AOE gone crazy.
Only problem is bunker. dps just not enough to kill them FAST.

I have found in 1v1 if you get the first attack off your chances go way up. With bunkers your timing on dodges and evades has to be perfect. P/p shines in group fights just as long as you avoid being focused down.

That’s the problem with it though. You’re a DPS bot for someone else who is doing the fighting. When you’re spotted, you’re done. Not a fun proposition.

Faeyd.5094:

babazhook.6805:

Pinkcomet.2975:

I’m P/P….. with Blinding powder and Shadow step.
you ll be surprise many ppl dont know how to counter p/p.

not so great in 1v1. OK in group fight especially when AOE gone crazy.
Only problem is bunker. dps just not enough to kill them FAST.

I have found in 1v1 if you get the first attack off your chances go way up. With bunkers your timing on dodges and evades has to be perfect. P/p shines in group fights just as long as you avoid being focused down.

That’s the problem with it though. You’re a DPS bot for someone else who is doing the fighting. When you’re spotted, you’re done. Not a fun proposition.

This is the case for any thief build that does not use stealth. It the case for any of the professions without it. If two or three focus you it pretty hard to survive. The strategy for fighting with p/p is very different. You have to try not to get noticed and do not spend too long in one area. While it has no built in mobility you still are not rooted in place.

As such overlooked traits DO help. As example instinctual response and the much maligned hard to catch. Shadowstep is used for battlefield mobility and misdirection more so then clearing conditions. I try to go by a “hunch” as to when I have been too long in the same area and then break off run away from the fight circle around and come from elsewhere.

If in smaller groups you have to be last in first out allowing heavier classes to engage and gain the focus of the enemy then moving in to spike one down quickly. I have found that going for the finish on a downed opponent exposes you too much and leave that to others unless it a sure thing. I was using Runes of the pack as I wanted that fury and precision for a high crit rate build.. I have since obtained some better trinkets so now have that same high crit rate so switched to Vampirism runes.

It really amazing how many times that mist form has saved me and you need to find those added “outs”

Added to that there nothing wrong with using another weaponset in conjunction with p/p.

You WILL die more then with builds using stealth or weapon sets that have all of those teleports but you can mitigate this to an extent.

Are other builds more effective? Yep , but it hardly means p/p not viable and p/p really works quite well in those larger fights where it claimed Thieves can do little good just as long as you roam the periphery and not become a rally bot.

There’s a lot of P/P thieves playing on low level servers www, along with at least 1/3 of rangers, and even if it’s not viable in 1v1, it’s still annoying as hell. It’s just a longbow ranger with more damage and less range. Good thing is just like longbow rangers, they all spam 3 and forget to dodge, so they are easy preys, but P/P shouldn’t be buffed. Well, no ranged attacks should be buffed, this game was supposed to reward melee.

Thief without evade or stealth weapon skills is free frag. P/P → 0x evade and 0x stealth = free frag.

P/P is not as bad as many people out there tell you , you have to use it wisely, and pick the right traits + utils .

Biggest problem imho is retaliation !
Right now, if often see me nearly killing myself because of ~350dmg retaliation procs and or passive burning effects if you hit a target …
Combine this with the ricochet trait and you are done, which is super stupid imho.

In WvW it works quite well because of the bufffood that gives you HP back if you critically hit a target, but in sPvP where you only have signet of malice its not so good right now.

Travesty.8237:

Hi folks!

I understand p/p is a bad idea for wvwvw. But for some reason I still want to try it.

I’ve whipped up a build, linked below. It seems to look OK to me on paper.

Could someone please let me know where it falls down?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQJAqalsMp8pdPxzJsPNBPBtdCOQA4sETwzS3EA

Thanks for your opinions!

I would definitely move 2 from shadow arts and move to trickery for hastened replenishment. I always take this trait for p/p because I think withdraw is mandatory and I burn through initiative on p/p a lot faster than any other set. I also use the utility haste with this for maximum damage output

I can’t understand how the majority of this thread thinks p/p is awful and yet people call me cheese when I kill them with it.

Nema Tode.5637:

I can’t understand how the majority of this thread thinks p/p is awful and yet people call me cheese when I kill them with it.

Welcome to the internet!

Hey!

First of all I am a casual player who still clicks about half his skills – so you can’t really say I’m a pro or something

But still – here it is – my condition WvWvW troll build for solo/small group roaming :

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQRAoY6alsMp5pdOx7JsPNBNhwdtVz8+64yaFA-TFSAABKqfQ6HAAAHBgq3fAV1f64kAMpSwxU+FAABYmlZZWmBH9oH9oH9oNzZOzZOzZWKAYWDA-w

It has pros and cons, biggest pro is that you’re tougher than most of the thiefs out there and the bleeds tick like a * and biggest con in my view the mobility or better said the lack of mobility.

If anyone will take the time and check the build out I would greatly appreciate any suggestions and comments.

In order for P/P to be viable, it would need 1) good access to condi removal 2) a stronger defensive mechanic than Black Powder (though, if P/P became good enough, Black Powder’s blind pulse might have to be nerfed), and 3) more mobility.

Arganthium.5638:

In order for P/P to be viable, it would need 1) good access to condi removal 2) a stronger defensive mechanic than Black Powder (though, if P/P became good enough, Black Powder’s blind pulse might have to be nerfed), and 3) more mobility.

1)Pain Response(change the name) now removes 1 condition on dogde 8 sec CD gain 3 sec regen if a condition is removed 2) BP pulses every second again, blind duration has been reduced to 1 sec, the shot physical projectile finisher and blind effect has been removed and now only goes to the ground 3) Unload now as evasive frame upon activation 3/4 sec 4) Fleet of Foot(change the name) increase sword damage by 5%.

IF you gave mobility, defense and condi removal to P/P, you’d need to nerf its damage by half.

oxtred.7658:

IF you gave mobility, defense and condi removal to P/P, you’d need to nerf its damage by half.

-1

1)Pain Response(change the name) now removes 1 condition on dogde 8 sec CD gain 3 sec regen if a condition is removed 2) BP pulses every second again, blind duration has been reduced to 1 sec, the shot physical projectile finisher and blind effect has been removed and now only goes to the ground 3) Unload now as evasive frame upon activation 3/4 sec 4) Fleet of Foot(change the name) increase sword damage by 5%.

Sagat.3285:

Arganthium.5638:

In order for P/P to be viable, it would need 1) good access to condi removal 2) a stronger defensive mechanic than Black Powder (though, if P/P became good enough, Black Powder’s blind pulse might have to be nerfed), and 3) more mobility.

1)Pain Response(change the name) now removes 1 condition on dogde 8 sec CD gain 3 sec regen if a condition is removed 2) BP pulses every second again, blind duration has been reduced to 1 sec, the shot physical projectile finisher and blind effect has been removed and now only goes to the ground 3) Unload now as evasive frame upon activation 3/4 sec 4) Fleet of Foot(change the name) increase sword damage by 5%.

1. Changing PR is only likely to help S/D thieves running the trait, especially considering that it doesn’t remove a lot of conditions. Plus for a second-tier trait that would be pretty overpowered

2. Okay but that’s only going to help if you have a good defensive mechanic…

3. … And I mean, that’s an okay defensive mechanic, and that’s the kind of thing that P/P would be looking for because I think adjusting traits around P/P is only likely to help other builds become too strong. That being said, whether or not this would be an adequate defensive mechanic is difficult to say. Essentially P/P would have to function as a ranged S/D, which would be kinda weird but an interesting idea I suppose.

4. Obviously not a buff to P/P but I can see why you added it to your post given 1.

This is just a thought, but what if…P/P was played like a zerk LB ranger?

Wonder if it’s even possible…

Arikyali.5804:

This is just a thought, but what if…P/P was played like a zerk LB ranger?

Wonder if it’s even possible…

I tried that with 6/6/2/0/0 build and zerk gear, not really optimal for P/P but unload hurts a lot. You are a toast if you can’t wep swap and get jumped by zerg or condi bombed.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Arikyali.5804:

This is just a thought, but what if…P/P was played like a zerk LB ranger?

Wonder if it’s even possible…

I tried that with 6/6/2/0/0 build and zerk gear, not really optimal for P/P but unload hurts a lot. You are a toast if you can’t wep swap and get jumped by zerg or condi bombed.

I found I ended up using purity/generosity on the p/p set sacrificing damage as those condis would do you in quick

I’ve been P/P since I started playing, so I’m always looking to make the most of them. After messing around in WvW a bit, I’m finally getting over trying to use stealth in conjunction with P/P. I’m working on the following build, which I think may have a lot of potential.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZQQRAqa4Yl8Mp3pNOxwJ0PNRORt9DEALonXxU0ZPMXA-TxCBABbp04IlYGqfQLlBLYiDgnAARq/EyJAYClgnv/QAHEgAAIAcdT+xQKgyFGB-e

The Assassin’s Signet is just a placeholder for now. Choosing something for that slot is kind of hard. I’m very tempted to finally try to use the Asuran Pain Inverter skill.

edit: D/D is also placeholder from previous build. I’m going with S/D instead.

did it ever come to mind that pistol could make a wonderfull condition applyer for a venom build?

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQRAoY6alsMp5pdOx7JsPNBNhwdtVz8+64yaFA-TFSAABKqfQ6HAAAHBgq3fAV1f64kAMpSwxU+FAABYmlZZWmBH9oH9oH9oNzZOzZOzZWKAYWDA-w

When game released i trolled a lot of warrior with this kind of thing and i dare say 20 full seconds of weakness is kind of funny. Since pistol is a ranged weapon i would think runes like givers would make a easy way of condi removal.

I inspired myself from the moggle gunner from final fantasy tactics advanced when making this thing as i felt pistol shouldve been a status master.

I never used it in WvW, but I ran a P/P + S/D poison build for PvE for a very long time. Rampager armor, rings, with Rata Sum runes, PTV other accessories and 5/4/0/2/3. (This was actually before the traits changes). I loved it. In WvW, I suspect it’s pretty easy for people to cleanse themselves, esp running in a zerg, so maybe not so useful.

Nema Tode.5637:

I can’t understand how the majority of this thread thinks p/p is awful and yet people call me cheese when I kill them with it.

lol i even saw backpack playing pp thief, he still got rekt

pp may work at certain rating but is completely destroyed once you face smart opponents

oxtred.7658:

There’s a lot of P/P thieves playing on low level servers www, along with at least 1/3 of rangers, and even if it’s not viable in 1v1, it’s still annoying as hell. It’s just a longbow ranger with more damage and less range. Good thing is just like longbow rangers, they all spam 3 and forget to dodge, so they are easy preys, but P/P shouldn’t be buffed. Well, no ranged attacks should be buffed, this game was supposed to reward melee.

That’s what you think. I 1v1’d a zerker Warrior and destroyed him in WvW the other day with P/P (apothecary thief build). I used BP when I saw an adrenaline move or any heavy hitting moves coming, dodged when I didn’t have the ini for BP, Unloaded only when I felt it was safe to (meaning no reflects), and whenever he tried to escape, I used Body Shot to nail him to the ground. I was decently surprised that I wasn’t having much problems with him, though I don’t know whether to call him a decent or good player, considering most Warriors I see in WvW refuse to run solo.

You’d have won easily with any other weapon set as well, you just outplayed someone.

oxtred.7658:

You’d have won easily with any other weapon set as well, you just outplayed someone.

I was throwing down the blind field every time he tried to use GS3 or Eviscerate, so I was dodging it constantly thanks to the blind. I had my graphics set to lowest too so I had no real telegraphs to work by (WvW lags me hard when any zerg is on the map otherwise, especially when we’re against T1 servers), which is why the win surprised the hell outta me.

Nema Tode.5637:

I can’t understand how the majority of this thread thinks p/p is awful and yet people call me cheese when I kill them with it.

It’s not the build that you run on your thief that makes them call cheese, it’s the fact you’re playing a thief is what makes them call cheese. I’m guessing you’re new to the thief community.

See people have a weird deep seeded hatred towards thieves, possibly because (regardless if you have used it) stealth takes a bit of thinking (which some can’t do) to counter. Since they’ve lost so many times to a thief in the past, their hatred grows stronger… and so when you kill them with p/p, d/nothing, p/nothing, or w/e other build/weapon you can think of, it’s not that you are good with that build, it’s not that the build is balanced, it’s not that the opponent lacked the skill to counter it – It’s simply because thief builds are all cheese.

Welcome!

It’s a bump, so excuse me. I’m not a necro, I swear.

What if p/p 3 gave 1 stack of might for every shot fired? I know I’d drop sb swap like a hot potato and take p/p. What do you think? Maybe a bit too OP?

Arikyali.5804:

It’s a bump, so excuse me. I’m not a necro, I swear.

What if p/p 3 gave 1 stack of might for every shot fired? I know I’d drop sb swap like a hot potato and take p/p. What do you think? Maybe a bit too OP?

You take sb for the dmg? Still wouldn’t fix the problems with P/P.

I’d like to see P/P have some sort of dodge mechanic, like most of the other #3 skills.
Death Blossom
Flanking Strike
Pistol Whip
Disabling Shot

I’d like to see Unload give back a small amount of endurance with each successful hit. Something in the realm of 5%. An unload has what, 9 shots? This would refill your endurance by 45% and would rely on the thief’s timing and landing hits to work, giving counterplay.

And yes, there are still problems to do with auto power scaling, auto attack speed, etc, etc

1): reduce bleed duration on auto attack to 2 seconds and increase the attack speed slightly.
2): Increase bleed duration on sneak attack to 7 seconds.
3):Remove vulnerability from body shot and replace with a debuff “wound”. Projectile finishers against wounded targets are inflicted with vulnerability (1 stack->5 seconds). Wound duration 4 seconds. (only successful projectile finishers so unload and auto attack have 20% for this effect. It will however work with ally projectile finishers).
4): for bps, increase pulse speed back to 1 second, reduce field duration to 3 seconds, maintain the 2 seconds of blind.

As for traits,

1): additional effect to pistol mastery, “unload has a 50% projectile finisher chance now”. Now a master trait.
2): Ankle shots changed to “critical hits against wounded targets have a chance to inflict cripple”. 20% chance for 2 seconds. No ICD. Ankle shots is now an adept trait. (swap with pistol mastery).
3): Combo critical chance changed to “Dual precision”, gain increased critical strike chance by 7% when dual wielding the same weapon. Seeing as how its a master trait giving 5% now and effects only 1 skill rather than picking side strike and getting 7% on all (flanking) hits. Just seems more practical this way.
4): Ricochet fine as is.

Intended result: Since p/d has stealth access and shadow strike (torment+gap opener) I’d say give the respective builds their damage source without stepping on each others toes. If the aa was simply buffed with more direct damage it only slightly helps p/p but also helps p/d hybrid. The whole p/p kit should function with its left and right gun skills, not depend on 1 skill.

The way I see pistols on thief, p/p power would use the aa for regular pressure, body shot followed by either unload or more auto attacks to rack up some vulnerability, unload for little spikes rather than spamming it, having bps to couple with pistol mastery (and body shot’s “wound” effect) so you can keep your blind defenses up and lay down more pressure without feeling obligated to only press 3 until you win. Ultimately you would be kiting them to some degree and spike them with unload at times with all skills being regularly used. Also with ankle shots you can better keep a distance so you can rack up the vuln stacks and dish out a stronger #3.

With the changes, p/d wouldn’t really receive any buffs. The auto attack certainly takes a dive even if it is quicker but it is compensated in its heavy stacker which not only is slightly longer, gets an even better benefit from bleed duration (x% is better on 7 than 5). It takes out the easy condi pressure that p/d uses to kite with but gives a strong punch if they get a cnd-> sneak attack combo in giving more counterplay for the enemy, and potentially more reward for the thief. With the “wound” effect not only would cnd add some vuln stacks, but sneak attack (being a 100% finisher X5) would really start to burry your opponent in conditions which helps p/d hybrid a little (nothing special for p/d pure condi). Above all I don’t think condi weapon sets should have strong pressure on their auto attack, it should come from skills that are nasty but avoidable.

Overall I think it’d be the right idea to buff p/p without giving p/d (an already over complained about build) anymore melting tools. Numbers are just for show, they mean next to nothing.

The main thing that needs to happen is they need to buff Vital Shot or convert some of its bleed damage into direct damage. Vital Shot is weakish anyway, but especially with a Power build, which leads to an over-reliance on Unload to even maintain mediocre DPS. This affects the entire set by leaving you without any utility to maintain DPS, or without any DPS to get any utility.

P/D is a lot more usable because it’s more diversified – several skills do potent damage and Sneak Attack helps compensate for the weakness of Vital Shot’s bleed stacking. In contrast, P/P has Unload and only Unload.

anyone play p/p d/p? Perplexity rune balance builds with bewildering ambush?

Einlanzer.1627:

The main thing that needs to happen is they need to buff Vital Shot or convert some of its bleed damage into direct damage. Vital Shot is weakish anyway, but especially with a Power build, which leads to an over-reliance on Unload to even maintain mediocre DPS. This affects the entire set by leaving you without any utility to maintain DPS, or without any DPS to get any utility.

P/D is a lot more usable because it’s more diversified – several skills do potent damage and Sneak Attack helps compensate for the weakness of Vital Shot’s bleed stacking. In contrast, P/P has Unload and only Unload.

I’m a full zerk played but I can already feel the fury of condition players aiming at your post.

Oh, poor P/d condi thieves, they are so barely viable in the only game mode where P/D is a thing.

Xtinct.7031:

anyone play p/p d/p? Perplexity rune balance builds with bewildering ambush?

Yes, incredibly high sustain and able to troll most things, but power is better overall as far as killing power with P/P from what I’ve used/seen/fought.

Syscord (Nema Tode) is the only thief I’ve fought that makes it work consistently against a variety of opponents. <3 from Cabbage

Evalia.7103:

Einlanzer.1627:

The main thing that needs to happen is they need to buff Vital Shot or convert some of its bleed damage into direct damage. Vital Shot is weakish anyway, but especially with a Power build, which leads to an over-reliance on Unload to even maintain mediocre DPS. This affects the entire set by leaving you without any utility to maintain DPS, or without any DPS to get any utility.

P/D is a lot more usable because it’s more diversified – several skills do potent damage and Sneak Attack helps compensate for the weakness of Vital Shot’s bleed stacking. In contrast, P/P has Unload and only Unload.

I’m a full zerk played but I can already feel the fury of condition players aiming at your post.

Well, I’m not really an advocate of making it totally power based, but Vital Shot just needs to work better.