Guild Wars 2

So my main is a Necro, I am rank 35 and have over 800 hrs played. I came to the conclusion that thieves were far too OP and most certainly needed a nerf. The main reason was backstab hitting for 8k (sometimes), and then only a few more hits and I was down. The second reason was heartseeker having a gap closer, and big damage dealer, all in one. With that I decided to make an alt as a thief to mainly learn their weaknesses etc.

Having played a thief for a little bit here is my perspective. Also, please bare in mind that I am a bit of a noob when it comes to thieves, however I would still say I am pretty decent. So here is what I learned. Just how thieves are a Necro’s worst class (well maybe Mesmers then thieves), I found that Guardians and Warriors were my worst class as a thief. But in general I realised that thieves are super super super squishy and if you can’t kill someone quickly you are more than likely dead yourself if you can’t slip away. Not to mention you can’t really enter into the zerg fight as even AOE’s will hurt. This doesn’t help the reputation of the thief however, because it means thieves are always on the outskirts ganking people giving them that OP rep. I feel the dmg does need to be pretty high to compensate for the lack of survivability. What I learn’t with my Necro is to make them waste there initiative and then they are toast, or they will run away, which is fine since they won’t be bothering me anymore to achieve my objective. The longer you drag the fight out the less likely they will win. I always knew this I guess I just didn’t realise the extent of it.

So that is my two cents. I think thieves, in good hands (not mine), are probably slightly OP, but certainly not to the extent that a lot of people think they are. I think that thieves should be that ‘hard to hit’ class, the slippery class, because they can’t take much of a hit. But maybe their dmg on backstab etc could be toned down a little. Certainly the bad players that spam HS also give thieves a really bad rep.

It’s that there cheap, no counter, no skill kills.

CC’ed so no buttons can be pressed. Dead.

Killed by someone invis you cant even target.

Person not on CoolDown = Win. Not very deep & very unsatisfying.

PW|BS|HB|Shatter
Kill each other without a chance.
One second fight break pvp.

I honestly don’t care about the dmg I adapted to a more toughness heavy build. What I don’t like is the endless stealth kittenome people do. I fought a thief just now who came in and out of stealth hitting me and this other guy once and vanishing again. Not sure if the rendering issue effects spvp as well, but it was annoying. He didn’t kill us or anything, but pretty much forced us to remain at the capture point. I know how thieves work I have a high level thief, but that was annoying.

Anyways, it could be the rendering thing, but it sure didn’t look like there were 3 seconds between.

personally i find that yes warriors and guardians can be tough for d/d thiefs but running a pistol.dagger condition build warriors are free cake, guardians take longer because of the condition removal, but still die. mesmers can be a pain depending on how good they are, 2 options, maul the clones and everything with shortbow. or skillfully ignore all the clones focusing sneak atks on the main, mesmers are very squishy if you can follow them.

I think you’re very right OP on all statements. I consider it to be one of the more honest posts on this forum regarding Thief.

@Catalyst:
I wonder, was he using Cloak and Dagger as soon as the Stealth buff disappeared? That would explain why he never got the Revealed debuff for 3 seconds. If that’s the case the best counter is to dodge right around when the Thief would use CnD then when he is revealed CC or AoE where he was. If there is a successful immobilize and such, pound the Thief down in the spot he was last at unless there are signs of being elsewhere.

Frizz.6704:

So my main is a Necro, I am rank 35 and have over 800 hrs played. I came to the conclusion that thieves were far too OP and most certainly needed a nerf. The main reason was backstab hitting for 8k (sometimes), and then only a few more hits and I was down. The second reason was heartseeker having a gap closer, and big damage dealer, all in one. With that I decided to make an alt as a thief to mainly learn their weaknesses etc.

Having played a thief for a little bit here is my perspective. Also, please bare in mind that I am a bit of a noob when it comes to thieves, however I would still say I am pretty decent. So here is what I learned. Just how thieves are a Necro’s worst class (well maybe Mesmers then thieves), I found that Guardians and Warriors were my worst class as a thief. But in general I realised that thieves are super super super squishy and if you can’t kill someone quickly you are more than likely dead yourself if you can’t slip away. Not to mention you can’t really enter into the zerg fight as even AOE’s will hurt. This doesn’t help the reputation of the thief however, because it means thieves are always on the outskirts ganking people giving them that OP rep. I feel the dmg does need to be pretty high to compensate for the lack of survivability. What I learn’t with my Necro is to make them waste there initiative and then they are toast, or they will run away, which is fine since they won’t be bothering me anymore to achieve my objective. The longer you drag the fight out the less likely they will win. I always knew this I guess I just didn’t realise the extent of it.

So that is my two cents. I think thieves, in good hands (not mine), are probably slightly OP, but certainly not to the extent that a lot of people think they are. I think that thieves should be that ‘hard to hit’ class, the slippery class, because they can’t take much of a hit. But maybe their dmg on backstab etc could be toned down a little. Certainly the bad players that spam HS also give thieves a really bad rep.

It is not about the squishy part.
High damage isn’t a compensation of low survivability, amazing mobility and stealth is.
Compensating the lack of defensive capability raising offensive ability makes no sense at all in terms of balance and ArenaNet knows it, that’s why thieves have cheap stealth access, which means in most cases a free ticket to leave the fight and heal up, plus an unspecified amounts of teleports which can give you an incredibly positioning advantage.

Justifying the outstanding bursts of thieves with their squishyness is the worse mistake you can make while evaluating the thief state.

You could be right, he was also dropping the aoe stealth

I like this post by OP. He doesn’t rage about the thief class being OP, but just gives his honest opinion. I agree, although I just wish they would fix the rendering. If they made the game run like its supposed to to, the recent nerfs would be kitten

Catalyst.8075:

I honestly don’t care about the dmg I adapted to a more toughness heavy build. What I don’t like is the endless stealth kittenome people do. I fought a thief just now who came in and out of stealth hitting me and this other guy once and vanishing again. Not sure if the rendering issue effects spvp as well, but it was annoying. He didn’t kill us or anything, but pretty much forced us to remain at the capture point. I know how thieves work I have a high level thief, but that was annoying.

Anyways, it could be the rendering thing, but it sure didn’t look like there were 3 seconds between.

Forced you to stay at cap point? Perhaps you should have realized that cap points in sPvP don’t work the same way they do in WvW…and maybe, just maybe, if you used some smartly placed aoes, you would have had a better time hitting them.

It’s amazing how much people still cry about BS. What a joke! BS thieves are by far the easiest ones to kill.

What needs to be fixed is blocking off capping in WvW while in stealth, and the culling issues of WvW. Not BS, not anything else.

sorrow.2364:

Frizz.6704:

So my main is a Necro, I am rank 35 and have over 800 hrs played. I came to the conclusion that thieves were far too OP and most certainly needed a nerf. The main reason was backstab hitting for 8k (sometimes), and then only a few more hits and I was down. The second reason was heartseeker having a gap closer, and big damage dealer, all in one. With that I decided to make an alt as a thief to mainly learn their weaknesses etc.

Having played a thief for a little bit here is my perspective. Also, please bare in mind that I am a bit of a noob when it comes to thieves, however I would still say I am pretty decent. So here is what I learned. Just how thieves are a Necro’s worst class (well maybe Mesmers then thieves), I found that Guardians and Warriors were my worst class as a thief. But in general I realised that thieves are super super super squishy and if you can’t kill someone quickly you are more than likely dead yourself if you can’t slip away. Not to mention you can’t really enter into the zerg fight as even AOE’s will hurt. This doesn’t help the reputation of the thief however, because it means thieves are always on the outskirts ganking people giving them that OP rep. I feel the dmg does need to be pretty high to compensate for the lack of survivability. What I learn’t with my Necro is to make them waste there initiative and then they are toast, or they will run away, which is fine since they won’t be bothering me anymore to achieve my objective. The longer you drag the fight out the less likely they will win. I always knew this I guess I just didn’t realise the extent of it.

So that is my two cents. I think thieves, in good hands (not mine), are probably slightly OP, but certainly not to the extent that a lot of people think they are. I think that thieves should be that ‘hard to hit’ class, the slippery class, because they can’t take much of a hit. But maybe their dmg on backstab etc could be toned down a little. Certainly the bad players that spam HS also give thieves a really bad rep.

It is not about the squishy part.
High damage isn’t a compensation of low survivability, amazing mobility and stealth is.
Compensating the lack of defensive capability raising offensive ability makes no sense at all in terms of balance and ArenaNet knows it, that’s why thieves have cheap stealth access, which means in most cases a free ticket to leave the fight and heal up, plus an unspecified amounts of teleports which can give you an incredibly positioning advantage.

Justifying the outstanding bursts of thieves with their squishyness is the worse mistake you can make while evaluating the thief state.

Too bad they have to play a glass cannon to be good enough for that damage, and are FORCED to equip a shortbow at all times in PvP, if they want those teleport chances…and even then, are limited by initiative.

Stealth is NOT a free get out of combat card…unless you’re fighting lazy people who don’t put in the effort to predict your moves and chase you to finish you off.

Amazing mobility and stealth does NOTHING for you when your survivability is kitten, because you won’t be able to kill anything with kitten damage just with mobility and stealth (especially the way stealth is designed in GW2). Your logic is flawed.

PS: I hope you complain as much, if not more about warriors than thieves, because they have higher survivability, with higher burst. I have a warrior I play…and I can say, without a doubt, that it’s ridiculously “OP”.

It really isn’t a problem.
Each profession has its plus points and it actually depends on how you play. I saw necro (dev) video in which he took on 3 people all by himself and won. And don’t say “He’s a dev so he can do that” ‘cause 3 on 1 is really challenging for a medium armor class.
I am a thief and even with my burst killing a guardian is tiring. There are times i feel that their health bar is on a constant lag or something.
Since you are a necro, your armor is light so killing you is easy for any class unless you do something about it. I could tell you the combo which the dev used but that wouldn’t be fair. Try to find the right combo in the pvp practice arena. All I’ll say is that the necro special and elite skills are nice.

And as for stealth, it only lasts a few seconds and you cant go into stealth again for few seconds if you attack while in stealth. Plus stealth skills costs the maximum initiative.

xitiz.6519:

It really isn’t a problem.
Each profession has its plus points and it actually depends on how you play. I saw necro (dev) video in which he took on 3 people all by himself and won. And don’t say “He’s a dev so he can do that” ‘cause 3 on 1 is really challenging for a medium armor class.
I am a thief and even with my burst killing a guardian is tiring. There are times i feel that their health bar is on a constant lag or something.
Since you are a necro, your armor is light so killing you is easy for any class unless you do something about it. I could tell you the combo which the dev used but that wouldn’t be fair. Try to find the right combo in the pvp practice arena. All I’ll say is that the necro special and elite skills are nice.

I’m not sure who you are talking too? If it is me (the OP) I am not sure of your point. I don’t have any problems with lower burst classes. But thieves are still somewhat difficult I find. I know you are talking about the plague form and AOE blind that is nothing new.

Thieves are a joke when compared to a good d/d elementalist.

Catalyst.8075:

I honestly don’t care about the dmg I adapted to a more toughness heavy build. What I don’t like is the endless stealth kittenome people do. I fought a thief just now who came in and out of stealth hitting me and this other guy once and vanishing again. Not sure if the rendering issue effects spvp as well, but it was annoying. He didn’t kill us or anything, but pretty much forced us to remain at the capture point. I know how thieves work I have a high level thief, but that was annoying.

Anyways, it could be the rendering thing, but it sure didn’t look like there were 3 seconds between.

That sounds like someone like me :P.The guy kept you occupied for the price of not getting points with the zerg.Annoying isn’t illegal.It’s annoying yes,but from my pow it’s fun

222222 is kind of noobish, but I don’t think it’s OP. However, I play as a P/D thief, so they are pretty easy to counter in 1v1s. Have not made another character to see how it goes from their prospective, and I certainly don’t care seeing as I don’t use heartseeker :P

Kurow.6973:

Too bad they have to play a glass cannon to be good enough for that damage, and are FORCED to equip a shortbow at all times in PvP, if they want those teleport chances…and even then, are limited by initiative.

Stealth is NOT a free get out of combat card…unless you’re fighting lazy people who don’t put in the effort to predict your moves and chase you to finish you off.

Amazing mobility and stealth does NOTHING for you when your survivability is kitten, because you won’t be able to kill anything with kitten damage just with mobility and stealth (especially the way stealth is designed in GW2). Your logic is flawed.

PS: I hope you complain as much, if not more about warriors than thieves, because they have higher survivability, with higher burst. I have a warrior I play…and I can say, without a doubt, that it’s ridiculously “OP”.

I can’t believe you completely misunderstood my post.

No thief is forced to play as a glass cannon, there are bunch of builds which relies on heavy toughness and vitality, while dealing good damage (see P/D). The fact that most people build as glass cannon doesn’t mean that all thieves are forced to build as a glass cannon.

You are not forced to have a shortbow in order to have high mobility.
You have always a gap closer (steal) in all your builds, you can use S/x to have access to Infiltrator’s Strike which is a gap closer, a gap gainer, a stunbreak and a condition removal. You can pick also P/D or D/P, both have a mobility dual skill. Shadowstep gives also most thieves high mobility, Withdraw heals you and gives you positional advantage, same as Roll for Initiative.

Stealth IS a free get out of the combat card. Once you get in stealth, just one dodge is enough to get out of the melee range and your enemy has absolutely no clue of where you headed to because you are… invisible. They can keeping swinging the air at random, but if you aren’t stupid enough to get hit by those swings, you are most likely out of the fight.

Amazing mobility and stealth does a lot and can easily compensate low survivability (which, by the way, isn’t that bad when speccing into). Have you ever specced into Shadow Arts or Arcrobatics? The first one has the potential to clean you up and healing you each time you go into stealth, while the second one gives you the chance have most likely infinite dodges. Do you think that those mechanics gives low survivability? Of course not.
Every profession can spec into glass cannon, having very low survivability and good damage, but no profession is capable to deal the damage thief deal in that amount of time and as hard to counter. Just try to build as glass cannon with a Mesmer, a Necro, an Elementalist or also a Warrior.
You’ll die just as fast as you die with your thief but the damage and the bursts you make are far harder to realize and can be easily dodged or avoided.

Regarding Warriors, it looks like that most thieves have a sort of hate against that profession.
Warriors have the least defensive capability in the game. Their defensive traitlines give almost no defensive capability other than increasing their toughness a bit, which is by the way not enough to mitigate the damage. Once you build as a glass cannon with a warrior, you have no way to avoid the hits other than dodging or probably using one of the high-recharge damage-cancelling skills like endure pain or shield stance, which are more of a burst cancelling other than damage mitigation. Once you strike a glass cannon warrior with substained damage, they will die in a couple of hits, probably more than what a thief requires to be downed, but of course they’ won’t vanish in stealth or kite your damage once they are on low health. When saying that warriors are OP, you should consider also those facts.
In most cases:
Damage avoiding > damage mitigation

sigh It’s never enough is it. Maybe we should give every class the same skills with the same damage and the same survivability and we can all sit around in wvw talking about the bad ol’ times.

Fully agree with OP even another class posting into thief’s forum about overpowered thiefe sounds alittle like trolling:D

Anyway, my main is thief, full berserker exotic, glacccannon on equip 10/30/30/0/0 survivability. My honest oppinion is we are horrible unbalanced and overpowered. You mentioned 8k backstab which is , for me, low end of my backstabs or maybe vs heavy class. I can reach 12k with signed and being glass cannon in traits. I have seen 15-16k backstabs but no idea how to reach it yet. Some ppl say something about squishines, i am far from squishy with long stelths and massive regen in stealth and remove condition in stealth.

It is kind of perfect class for all moments, and classical lazy stealth, preloaded cnd, backstab with or without basilisk venom, takes down 80% of wvw ppl. Honestly it is fun the first week, maybe another, then it is plainly boring :/ If you ask me, i honestly expect some dramatic nerf to thief’s burst in form of backstab and steal dmg ner or maybe some sort of stealth adjust. I shelved my thief and play mesmer as it offers kind of much better fun factor but of course in wvw, i am dead in 2 sec by thief

I admit, in sPvP, thieves feel rather ‘OP’. I’ve been playing a thief for quite a while, and most people in sPvP browser rooms are all thieves at times. This can get rather frustrating for newer players and so.. but I feel thieves aren’t really ‘OP’. When I play in sPvP, many times I can easily come out as top of the team with higher than 10 kills without much trouble.. Why? It’s 8v8 on a 10 player map, sometimes it’s like ‘crowded’ with players. All you have to do if your running BS thief is snipe someone, get out. You don’t need to finish the player, someone else in the whole zerg most probably will.
But thieves aren’t really OP in my eyes at all, when I set foot to tPvP. Good players easily counter thieves and make us look like jokers. We can’t even be taken seriously at times when there are so many bunkers out there. It’s not like WvW where a full stealth build would actually get you somewhere, since you could cap while in stealth. Full stealth build has not really much of a use in tPvP imo. If you can’t tank, hold points, or fight in a zerg, your pretty much not needed. I’ve not even won a good tanky D/D elementalist even once. Everytime I fight them, I end up losing, really quick if I’m not careful. Yes, I run backstab, but not full glass. I spec a lot (15) into acrobatics, and as someone said ‘infinite dodges’ with Signet of Precision, around a maximum of 6 dodges. Still, I have a lot of trouble fighting those classes, let alone kill them. Once my dodges are spent, I definitely have to retreat and if they’re good, I’ll probably be dead. No, it sounded like I could stall, but I most certainly cannot. Getting hit by even more than one CC is dangerous as a thief, even with close to 16k health. Spamming HS (with haste too) will get a thief nowhere in tPvP against bunkers. Full backstab combo doesn’t even do much, and when guards are in the area, you can’t even simply try and backstab someone. Chances are, they’ll have aegis on them. If Mug is blocked, you can pretty much say goodbye. The damage on backstab now isn’t even ‘ridiculously’ high. Maybe it is to all of you people who run full glass and expect to live.

Bweaty.9187:

CC’ed so no buttons can be pressed. Dead.

This statement made your whole post irrelevant, sir….
CC´s have counters, you know?

Hate fighting necro’s on my Thief. Playing a condi build, vs a necro or mesmer is hell. They just put your conditions back on you the kittens!

Kurow.6973:

Stealth is NOT a free get out of combat card…unless you’re fighting lazy people who don’t put in the effort to predict your moves and chase you to finish you off.

So here’s my thing: when I use stealth to get away, I think to myself “where would I think I was going?” and then do the opposite so I don’t get murdered because of my low health/armor. I have yet to be killed by anyone once I hit stealth in WvW and I’m only lvl 57.

You can’t predict the moves if the thief is smart, that argument goes both ways.

Like Forty Seven Ninjas.6982:

Kurow.6973:

Stealth is NOT a free get out of combat card…unless you’re fighting lazy people who don’t put in the effort to predict your moves and chase you to finish you off.

So here’s my thing: when I use stealth to get away, I think to myself “where would I think I was going?” and then do the opposite so I don’t get murdered because of my low health/armor. I have yet to be killed by anyone once I hit stealth in WvW and I’m only lvl 57.

You can’t predict the moves if the thief is smart, that argument goes both ways.

Tells you a lot about the players playing WvW and the culling issues, doesn’t it?

I rolled a necro after extensive thief play. Because at equally high skill levels, necros are the hardest counter to almost anything i can bring to spvp.
With only ways for thief to deal damage is either short melee bursts or sustained condition damage necros are the only class that bring countering both to the top.
The ability of necros to punish any hostility entering a certain area (marks, wells) counters 9 out of 10 tries for melee burst while the ability to manipulate conditions and natural high health + death shroud counters the last option.
Both necros and thieves have a lot of work to be done on them, but do note: thieves have never shined in spvp with and without fixes and don’t look like they will be ever able to without really major changes. While as necros are close to being solid top-tier both in terms of skill required and raw power of builds even with ridiculous list of bugs and missing features.

Kurow.6973:

Like Forty Seven Ninjas.6982:

Kurow.6973:

Stealth is NOT a free get out of combat card…unless you’re fighting lazy people who don’t put in the effort to predict your moves and chase you to finish you off.

So here’s my thing: when I use stealth to get away, I think to myself “where would I think I was going?” and then do the opposite so I don’t get murdered because of my low health/armor. I have yet to be killed by anyone once I hit stealth in WvW and I’m only lvl 57.

You can’t predict the moves if the thief is smart, that argument goes both ways.

Tells you a lot about the players playing WvW and the culling issues, doesn’t it?

It doesn’t necessarily say anything about WvW players, simply that stealth is too good, albeit the culling issues need to be fixed before ANYTHING else is changed.

I know I have crap health and armor so I build around stealth so when I need to get away I have a legit 10-15 seconds of stealth (blinding powder, shadows refuge, CnD & so forth). The main point I was trying to make is that stealth is way too good of a defensive tool than a lot of people make it out to be.

Mjk.7562:

Some ppl say something about squishines, i am far from squishy with long stelths and massive regen in stealth and remove condition in stealth.

Eh eh do you really think most thief players have given their honest opinions about the class? Nah most of them are too afraid of being nerfed (or are just bad). People like you who like a challenge are really the minority. Being a competitive person myself i kind of understand them. And tbh i’m fine with thief, i even play it sometimes. Well stealth as it is now is broken, that’s the only thing that should be fixed. I always smile when a thief brings up the “better” warrior survivability.

SkyTumn.3278:

I admit, in sPvP, thieves feel rather ‘OP’. I’ve been playing a thief for quite a while, and most people in sPvP browser rooms are all thieves at times. This can get rather frustrating for newer players and so.. but I feel thieves aren’t really ‘OP’. When I play in sPvP, many times I can easily come out as top of the team with higher than 10 kills without much trouble.. Why? It’s 8v8 on a 10 player map, sometimes it’s like ‘crowded’ with players. All you have to do if your running BS thief is snipe someone, get out. You don’t need to finish the player, someone else in the whole zerg most probably will.
But thieves aren’t really OP in my eyes at all, when I set foot to tPvP. Good players easily counter thieves and make us look like jokers. We can’t even be taken seriously at times when there are so many bunkers out there. It’s not like WvW where a full stealth build would actually get you somewhere, since you could cap while in stealth. Full stealth build has not really much of a use in tPvP imo. If you can’t tank, hold points, or fight in a zerg, your pretty much not needed. I’ve not even won a good tanky D/D elementalist even once. Everytime I fight them, I end up losing, really quick if I’m not careful. Yes, I run backstab, but not full glass. I spec a lot (15) into acrobatics, and as someone said ‘infinite dodges’ with Signet of Precision, around a maximum of 6 dodges. Still, I have a lot of trouble fighting those classes, let alone kill them. Once my dodges are spent, I definitely have to retreat and if they’re good, I’ll probably be dead. No, it sounded like I could stall, but I most certainly cannot. Getting hit by even more than one CC is dangerous as a thief, even with close to 16k health. Spamming HS (with haste too) will get a thief nowhere in tPvP against bunkers. Full backstab combo doesn’t even do much, and when guards are in the area, you can’t even simply try and backstab someone. Chances are, they’ll have aegis on them. If Mug is blocked, you can pretty much say goodbye. The damage on backstab now isn’t even ‘ridiculously’ high. Maybe it is to all of you people who run full glass and expect to live.

I really like your post. I totally agree.

Ichishi.9613:

I rolled a necro after extensive thief play. Because at equally high skill levels, necros are the hardest counter to almost anything i can bring to spvp.
With only ways for thief to deal damage is either short melee bursts or sustained condition damage necros are the only class that bring countering both to the top.
The ability of necros to punish any hostility entering a certain area (marks, wells) counters 9 out of 10 tries for melee burst while the ability to manipulate conditions and natural high health + death shroud counters the last option.
Both necros and thieves have a lot of work to be done on them, but do note: thieves have never shined in spvp with and without fixes and don’t look like they will be ever able to without really major changes. While as necros are close to being solid top-tier both in terms of skill required and raw power of builds even with ridiculous list of bugs and missing features.

I disagree in some points.
Necro have absolutely no viable power build with the exception of well bomber, which, anyway, is subpar when compared to other power build because of it needs to use all your utility slots and the elite to be effective, while most other professions can just rely on their weapon skills to deal decent damage, something Necromancers can’t do due to the really low damage of their weapon sets (see Axe, Focus or Dagger itself without taking into account the autoattack).

Plus, their traitlines lack of any form of synergy to make any power build viable.
Most the damage booster traits are weak, on highest tier or too situational, the whole power traitline completely sucks because of a bunch of useless and non-working traits, plus they have the plague to have Critical Damage and Precision split in two different traitlines, whose traitlines are absolutely not focused neither on criticals or damage.
Just take a look on the list of the traits and see which trait you would pick for a power build, than take a look to the list of not-working traits.

So, in my opinion, Necromancers need the most help in terms of burst builds, in order to not to be tied to the boring well bomber, and to the whole traits disposition/effects.

Elthurien.8356:

Thieves are a joke when compared to a good d/d elementalist.

Anyone is a joke compared to a d/d elementalist with a gaming mouse.

noobftw.9654:

Elthurien.8356:

Thieves are a joke when compared to a good d/d elementalist.

Anyone is a joke compared to a d/d elementalist with a gaming mouse.

That was exactly what i said about a month and a half ago, people loled, then there got the fotm video and everyone went idiotic over it, right now, the only thing that can stand to one is a caltrops thief.

Like Forty Seven Ninjas.6982:

Kurow.6973:

Like Forty Seven Ninjas.6982:

Kurow.6973:

Stealth is NOT a free get out of combat card…unless you’re fighting lazy people who don’t put in the effort to predict your moves and chase you to finish you off.

So here’s my thing: when I use stealth to get away, I think to myself “where would I think I was going?” and then do the opposite so I don’t get murdered because of my low health/armor. I have yet to be killed by anyone once I hit stealth in WvW and I’m only lvl 57.

You can’t predict the moves if the thief is smart, that argument goes both ways.

Tells you a lot about the players playing WvW and the culling issues, doesn’t it?

It doesn’t necessarily say anything about WvW players, simply that stealth is too good, albeit the culling issues need to be fixed before ANYTHING else is changed.

I know I have crap health and armor so I build around stealth so when I need to get away I have a legit 10-15 seconds of stealth (blinding powder, shadows refuge, CnD & so forth). The main point I was trying to make is that stealth is way too good of a defensive tool than a lot of people make it out to be.

It says a lot about WvW players. C&D is EASY to predict, ergo easy to dodge. Refuge is EASY to bombard with AoEs…hell, even if you run around swinging madly in the refuge, you can still hit the thief…only special players are unable to deal with it, and BP lasts for 3 seconds, which is really nothing.

Other classes have LONG duration blocks/invulnerability. Thief’s stealth does none of those. They don’t negate any kind of damage. From my personal experience, 80~85% of WvW players have a really hard time ADAPTING to a given situation.

noobftw.9654:

Elthurien.8356:

Thieves are a joke when compared to a good d/d elementalist.

Anyone is a joke compared to a d/d elementalist with a gaming mouse.

Precisely!

A well played D/D elementalist is by far the most OP class in the game. When I’m on my elementalist and WvW-ing, I RARELY ever die and can take on zergs fairly effortlessly. I use a Razer Naga and a G15.

sorrow.2364:

Kurow.6973:

Too bad they have to play a glass cannon to be good enough for that damage, and are FORCED to equip a shortbow at all times in PvP, if they want those teleport chances…and even then, are limited by initiative.

Stealth is NOT a free get out of combat card…unless you’re fighting lazy people who don’t put in the effort to predict your moves and chase you to finish you off.

Amazing mobility and stealth does NOTHING for you when your survivability is kitten, because you won’t be able to kill anything with kitten damage just with mobility and stealth (especially the way stealth is designed in GW2). Your logic is flawed.

PS: I hope you complain as much, if not more about warriors than thieves, because they have higher survivability, with higher burst. I have a warrior I play…and I can say, without a doubt, that it’s ridiculously “OP”.

I can’t believe you completely misunderstood my post.

No thief is forced to play as a glass cannon, there are bunch of builds which relies on heavy toughness and vitality, while dealing good damage (see P/D). The fact that most people build as glass cannon doesn’t mean that all thieves are forced to build as a glass cannon.

You are not forced to have a shortbow in order to have high mobility.
You have always a gap closer (steal) in all your builds, you can use S/x to have access to Infiltrator’s Strike which is a gap closer, a gap gainer, a stunbreak and a condition removal. You can pick also P/D or D/P, both have a mobility dual skill. Shadowstep gives also most thieves high mobility, Withdraw heals you and gives you positional advantage, same as Roll for Initiative.

Stealth IS a free get out of the combat card. Once you get in stealth, just one dodge is enough to get out of the melee range and your enemy has absolutely no clue of where you headed to because you are… invisible. They can keeping swinging the air at random, but if you aren’t stupid enough to get hit by those swings, you are most likely out of the fight.

Amazing mobility and stealth does a lot and can easily compensate low survivability (which, by the way, isn’t that bad when speccing into). Have you ever specced into Shadow Arts or Arcrobatics? The first one has the potential to clean you up and healing you each time you go into stealth, while the second one gives you the chance have most likely infinite dodges. Do you think that those mechanics gives low survivability? Of course not.
Every profession can spec into glass cannon, having very low survivability and good damage, but no profession is capable to deal the damage thief deal in that amount of time and as hard to counter. Just try to build as glass cannon with a Mesmer, a Necro, an Elementalist or also a Warrior.
You’ll die just as fast as you die with your thief but the damage and the bursts you make are far harder to realize and can be easily dodged or avoided.

Regarding Warriors, it looks like that most thieves have a sort of hate against that profession.
Warriors have the least defensive capability in the game. Their defensive traitlines give almost no defensive capability other than increasing their toughness a bit, which is by the way not enough to mitigate the damage. Once you build as a glass cannon with a warrior, you have no way to avoid the hits other than dodging or probably using one of the high-recharge damage-cancelling skills like endure pain or shield stance, which are more of a burst cancelling other than damage mitigation. Once you strike a glass cannon warrior with substained damage, they will die in a couple of hits, probably more than what a thief requires to be downed, but of course they’ won’t vanish in stealth or kite your damage once they are on low health. When saying that warriors are OP, you should consider also those facts.
In most cases:
Damage avoiding > damage mitigation

Wait… what?

Least defensive capability in the game? Man you have some HW to do.

Frizz.6704:

So my main is a Necro, I am rank 35 and have over 800 hrs played. I came to the conclusion that thieves were far too OP and most certainly needed a nerf.

Just how thieves are a Necro’s worst class (well maybe Mesmers then thieves), I found that Guardians and Warriors were my worst class as a thief

Can you explain this one to me, OP?

I see comments like this all the time. “Mesmer beats me harder than Thief, but Mesmer is fine, yet Thief is OP.”

I started playing a Mesmer a couple weeks ago. The kitten they can do is just insane. People complain about thief finishing while stealthed, yet using Distortion and finishing (Invulnerable, can’t be interrupted, no cast time so doesn’t interrupt finishing itself) is okay. This is just one example. I could go on.

I’d just like to hear from the perspective of someone who gets pooped on by both Mesmer and Thief as to why they think Thief is somehow OP while Mesmer is okay.

i think class balance is at a pretty good stage right now; while there’s still some bugs that need to be fixed (stealth rendering, traits not working, etc), i think for the most part everything is balanced nicely, and especially for being so early in the game’s life.

I think the people that are complaining are the ones that aren’t doing a good job avoiding the thieves’ burst. If you can deprive a thief of their initiative/cooldowns and block/dodge/mitigate a large enough portion of it, they become really trivial to beat.

Shizzlenit.7648:

Wait… what?

Least defensive capability in the game? Man you have some HW to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBJ3lUCB5I0

So man, what do you want to prove with that video? That a group of lv80 players with x Orbs of Powers and x food buffs can defeat a minizerg of upleveled people in WvWvW who actualy has also no clue on how to target enemies?
People should stop to post WvWvW footages to prove something or at least have to watch closely the video they post as a proof.
This just makes you hilarious.

I dont feel thief is OP at all. Thief seems OP because in the right situations, he can kill you almost instantly and that will make anyone rage. However, this game has kind of a rock paper scissor formula. Thieves has trouble against bunker Ele D/D, guardians, and mesmers. Personally I find Guardians easy to kill, just time consuming but thats whatever. The only class I feel that is OP is Mesmer. ive found myself using my Ele more and more because they get more respect than the thief does for killing. Stupid as that sounds, its true. btw, Necros and Engis are on the come up…just watch.

Krathalos.3461:

Frizz.6704:

So my main is a Necro, I am rank 35 and have over 800 hrs played. I came to the conclusion that thieves were far too OP and most certainly needed a nerf.

Just how thieves are a Necro’s worst class (well maybe Mesmers then thieves), I found that Guardians and Warriors were my worst class as a thief

Can you explain this one to me, OP?

I see comments like this all the time. “Mesmer beats me harder than Thief, but Mesmer is fine, yet Thief is OP.”

I started playing a Mesmer a couple weeks ago. The kitten they can do is just insane. People complain about thief finishing while stealthed, yet using Distortion and finishing (Invulnerable, can’t be interrupted, no cast time so doesn’t interrupt finishing itself) is okay. This is just one example. I could go on.

I’d just like to hear from the perspective of someone who gets pooped on by both Mesmer and Thief as to why they think Thief is somehow OP while Mesmer is okay.

I didn’t say Mesmer was ok – I do think Mesmers are OP.

Okay guys, as a very avid thief player, especially in sPvP and tPvP, I’ve already told you the problems with thief, albeit with a long wall… sorry for that. Anyway, to keep it short, this is it. Thieves are easy to handle, easy to kill people due to a high burst. On the contrary, thieves are also predictable. Other than those condition/caltrops players, which I believe no one is crying at, the other builds of thieves are quite predictable. Especially the backstab build. Thieves are ‘too strong’ to newer players in sPvP and thus many people feel that thieves are OP. But this is also because in sPvP most people enter 16 player rooms! 8v8 on a small map makes the whole place ‘crowded’. Therefore, there are more skirmishes, battles, mini zergs. These enable thieves to easily stomp unsuspecting players/newer players. However, in a competitive environment, against good players, especially those D/D Elementalists.. you’ll hardly ever come out as the victor in a 1v1 as a thief. I’ve played a lot of sPvP and tPvP with my thief, and I feel as if they’re nigh ‘invincible’ to backstab build thieves. Not only this, backstab thieves have to be careful in tPvP, as I have mentioned due to hard counters to them like Aegis from Guardians who normally have them up on their team at tPvP. In short, backstab thieves aren’t even close to OP when you fight real good players at tPvP in a 5v5 map. This is why I believe if they nerf backstab thieves to create a more conducive environment in sPvP, they’ll have to buff up our other builds back, so as to enable us to have more ‘variety’ or options in the more competitive side. Cheers!

Sorry, what I meant by necro’s power is not the power stat build but just the danger of the skills.
No other class can change battlefield (as in a given moment of time, not overall) as much as necros do, and surviving in a rapidly changing environment is what most of those “op” thieves cannot do.
In tPvP, a thief without a heavy investment into defense is eaten alive by almost anything.

Ichishi.9613:

Sorry, what I meant by necro’s power is not the power stat build but just the danger of the skills.
No other class can change battlefield (as in a given moment of time, not overall) as much as necros do, and surviving in a rapidly changing environment is what most of those “op” thieves cannot do.
In tPvP, a thief without a heavy investment into defense is eaten alive by almost anything.

That is untrue.
A thief has all the tools to leave the fight alive before getting killed, which is something Necro hasn’t.
Once you engaged a fight as a Necro, there is absolutely no way to leave that fight without killing everyone or getting killed and, because of the unviability of power builds, Necros always run conditions which is well known they are slow killers.
Overall, when playing a Necro it is just a matter of surviving long enough (quite long actually), which is hard considering the actual metagame of heavy damage builds and instant bursts. Plus, Necromancers have weak stunbreakers on a long cooldown. The only way to mitigate the damage is via Death Shroud (which is hard to build and easy to drain), then, once life force is over, you are only a clothy defenseless dead meat with more hp than normal. No damage mitigation, no damage avoiding skills, no evades, nothing.

sorrow.2364:

Shizzlenit.7648:

Wait… what?

Least defensive capability in the game? Man you have some HW to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBJ3lUCB5I0

So man, what do you want to prove with that video? That a group of lv80 players with x Orbs of Powers and x food buffs can defeat a minizerg of upleveled people in WvWvW who actualy has also no clue on how to target enemies?
People should stop to post WvWvW footages to prove something or at least have to watch closely the video they post as a proof.
This just makes you hilarious.

Did you actually watch the video?

PS: I find it hilarious that you complain about thief damage in WvW, yet here you made a mockery of someone obviously outplaying others, by stating they’re fighting upleveled players. Hypocrite much?

sorrow.2364:

Ichishi.9613:

Sorry, what I meant by necro’s power is not the power stat build but just the danger of the skills.
No other class can change battlefield (as in a given moment of time, not overall) as much as necros do, and surviving in a rapidly changing environment is what most of those “op” thieves cannot do.
In tPvP, a thief without a heavy investment into defense is eaten alive by almost anything.

That is untrue.
A thief has all the tools to leave the fight alive before getting killed, which is something Necro hasn’t.
Once you engaged a fight as a Necro, there is absolutely no way to leave that fight without killing everyone or getting killed and, because of the unviability of power builds, Necros always run conditions which is well known they are slow killers.
Overall, when playing a Necro it is just a matter of surviving long enough (quite long actually), which is hard considering the actual metagame of heavy damage builds and instant bursts. Plus, Necromancers have weak stunbreakers on a long cooldown. The only way to mitigate the damage is via Death Shroud (which is hard to build and easy to drain), then, once life force is over, you are only a clothy defenseless dead meat with more hp than normal. No damage mitigation, no damage avoiding skills, no evades, nothing.

False! I play a necro…and I can tell you they can last a lot longer than thieves if played right.

Power necros can also deal A TON of AoE damage really fast, especially with #4 DS. They’re near invulnerable with plagueform as well, dishing out constant conditions.

No evades? Wut? Seriously?

I’m getting the feeling that you just troll thief forum in the hopes of pushing out unnecessary nerfs on other classes, and don’t actually play any of the classes you try talk about.

PS: There’s some easy ways to leave a fight as necro. One of them in specific requires you to be skilled with DS.

sorrow.2364:

Shizzlenit.7648:

Wait… what?

Least defensive capability in the game? Man you have some HW to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBJ3lUCB5I0

So man, what do you want to prove with that video? That a group of lv80 players with x Orbs of Powers and x food buffs can defeat a minizerg of upleveled people in WvWvW who actualy has also no clue on how to target enemies?
People should stop to post WvWvW footages to prove something or at least have to watch closely the video they post as a proof.
This just makes you hilarious.

Yes because hes totaly not tanking 10-20 people here and actually survives.

I responded to someone saying that the warrior has the LEAST (lol) defensive capabilities in the game, show me another class doing what the warrior does in the video. Ill wait.

Kurow.6973:

Did you actually watch the video?

PS: I find it hilarious that you complain about thief damage in WvW, yet here you made a mockery of someone obviously outplaying others, by stating they’re fighting upleveled players. Hypocrite much?

Yes, I watched the video and I only saw the warrior getting few damage and dealing few damage from mostly upleveled players while his guildies did all the job. Obviously if you just look at the warrior rushing in the zerg and getting out alive (mostly) while playing a build with full toughness and vitality and then thinking warrior have great defensive capability, of course you’ll end up with such sentences.
Every profession can have great survivability when building with max toughness and vitality, but I wasn’t talking about survivability, but defensive capability.
Warriors have almost no defensive capability, which is compensated by the high armor and high health.

Please, tell me where I complained about Thieves damage in WvWvW. Seriously. I’ve never took into account WvWvW in any post I made.

Kurow.6973:

False! I play a necro…and I can tell you they can last a lot longer than thieves if played right.

Power necros can also deal A TON of AoE damage really fast, especially with #4 DS. They’re near invulnerable with plagueform as well, dishing out constant conditions.

No evades? Wut? Seriously?

I’m getting the feeling that you just troll thief forum in the hopes of pushing out unnecessary nerfs on other classes, and don’t actually play any of the classes you try talk about.

PS: There’s some easy ways to leave a fight as necro. One of them in specific requires you to be skilled with DS.

Of course you outlast any thief, they usually build as glass cannon.. lol

Power Necros can deal a ton of AoE damage? Do you really play necro or you came here just to say some random things passing them off as truth?

Life Transfer deals max 4k damage on a 40s recharge and 3s and an half casting time. Ton of AoE damage, you say? Just try it out.
Plague form push max 2 stack of bleeds, pretty worthless. It is only useful to survive against multiple people and then getting killed after it ends.

I never called in this topic for any nerf against thieves. Just read my posts and stop acting like a troll. I was just answering to some folks who said Warriors are OP and Thieves are UP.

Please, tell me the super-effective way to leave the fight as a Necro without letting the guy you are fighting chasing and killing you.

Shizzlenit.7648:

Yes because hes totaly not tanking 10-20 people here and actually survives.

I responded to someone saying that the warrior has the LEAST (lol) defensive capabilities in the game, show me another class doing what the warrior does in the video. Ill wait.

Defensive capability =/= survivability

Defensive capability is the ability to mitigate the damage via skills or traits, warriors haven’t this, that’s why they have heavy armor and high vitality.
He was running full toughness and vitality, with orbs and buffs and he still deals almost no damage and gets killed by a group of upleveled folks which barely targeted him, since they were more focused on the thief who dealt the actual damage.

sorrow what are you trying to say?
are you trying to say necros arent op? yes, they are not (in some cases)
are you trying to say thieves are op? yes, they are (in some cases)
are you trying to say that thieves are > necros all day long? no. Even in one-on-one, that should not exist in this game, an equally high skilled necro can and will outperform any thief.

Shizzlenit.7648:

sorrow.2364:

Shizzlenit.7648:

Wait… what?

Least defensive capability in the game? Man you have some HW to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBJ3lUCB5I0

So man, what do you want to prove with that video? That a group of lv80 players with x Orbs of Powers and x food buffs can defeat a minizerg of upleveled people in WvWvW who actualy has also no clue on how to target enemies?
People should stop to post WvWvW footages to prove something or at least have to watch closely the video they post as a proof.
This just makes you hilarious.

Yes because hes totaly not tanking 10-20 people here and actually survives.

I responded to someone saying that the warrior has the LEAST (lol) defensive capabilities in the game, show me another class doing what the warrior does in the video. Ill wait.

I think because you guys are arguing you’re not seeing the point he is trying to make. I completely agree with you on the warrior video – the guy was amazing. But I think the point he makes with Necro and Warrior is that their survivability comes from tanking through the damage vs a thief, which comes from evading the dmg via stealth etc. Although I agree a Necro can get out of trouble it involves, in nearly all cases, the Necro tanking through the damage while they pull away all the while fearing, chilling etc. I think this is his point. The theives survivability comes from stealthing, dodging etc. In other words it can’t take much damage it has to be slippery adn evade it.

Ichishi.9613:

sorrow what are you trying to say?
are you trying to say necros arent op? yes, they are not (in some cases)
are you trying to say thieves are op? yes, they are (in some cases)
are you trying to say that thieves are > necros all day long? no. Even in one-on-one, that should not exist in this game, an equally high skilled necro can and will outperform any thief.

I just disagreed about the fact that Necros are the hardest to counter in high skill level.
Of course a skilled Necro will kill an unskilled Thief, but a skilled Thief against a skilled Necro, the Necro has no chaces at all due to what I said.

Necroes are pretty much a hard counter for my condition build thief. Sometimes I have to hope that somebody else engages them while I blast away with pistols from range.

“Defensive capability =/= survivability”

I’m confused =/

Shizzlenit.7648:

“Defensive capability =/= survivability”

I’m confused =/

Defensive capability = ability to mitigate or avoid the damage (protection, easy access to dodges and evade etc), not tied to toughness or vitality, which are available to all professions.
Survivability = ability to survive a specific amount of damage thanks to the build features (es: high toughness and vitality), tied to the specific build you’re running

I find that Well of Darkness on my necro is a good counter to most thieves. If they stay inside the well, I drop a bunch of marks on the ground for them to enjoy. Other wells can work well, especially if you are built for them. Most glass cannon thieves cannot stay inside wells for too long before taking too much damage. Just be sure to give yourself a stun-break.