Guild Wars 2

Dear Arenanet and thief community,
Me as a mesmer feel lost while roaming alone or in group once me and my teamates encounter a perma stealthed thief.
What can I do against a perma stealthed thief ?
I have been reading plenty of Arenanet dev claiming that we have to learn to play against this profession.
I am on the top EU server since beginning. Me and my teamates still do not understand.
Do you feel perma stealth against a 10 men group is not broken ?
What are the counter ?
Now that mesmer are not valuable anymore in zergs whith confusion / time warp nerfs…what can mesmer do while roaming and being chained agressed by untuchable thief ?
Ignore him ? What if the thief does not ignore me ?
Is thief the only class able to roam without risk at all ?
Thanks for your help.

If thief is perma stealth he’s not attacking you. If 10 guys can’t drop a thief when he does attack or use a trap you are terrible players.

L2P IMO.

swinsk.6410:

If thief is perma stealth he’s not attacking you. If 10 guys can’t drop a thief when he does attack or use a trap you are terrible players.

L2P IMO.

This.

As others said, if the Thief insists on being perma-stealthed he won’t harm your group at all so you best not feed the troll, as that’s all permas can do, troll a group but not harming it. If he decides to attack, your group can quickly overpower him. As a mesmer you should have some nasty ways to keep him in the fight or force him to waste everything he has if he shows up.

First off how do you even know a permastealthed thief is there?

Zacchary.6183:

First off how do you even know a permastealthed thief is there?

Haha, that’s a good point. Might put that in my sig, actually.

Kicast.1459:

Me as a mesmer

I stopped reading there. I can imagine the rest of your post. I would understand if you were a warrior, but really, l2p, it’s not that hard with a npc based class.

1) Do nothing
2) Laugh at how low hi dps is
3) Knockdown, immobilize, freeze… him. If you really are 10 players, you really should be able to burst him down in 3-4 secs. He can counter 1 condition, perhaps 2 or even 3. But not enough to be able to kite 10 players spamming their stuns.
Which leads to 4) I really don’t like to write this, because I think it’s just unhelpful and negative, but: Learn to play. Don’t overreact when you see a thief. Don’t just dodge 3 times staying with zero chance to dodge when it’s really needed. And use stuns.
Most players loosing against my thief (not running permastealth, but either way) loose, because they are totally overreacting. If they would stay calm and think about what they could do, I pretty much wouldn’t have any chance (because I think I’m a terrible player, yet. Just training more…)

Best example: Video in the “Two warriors vs thief” thread (just one thread below this one). Two warriors totally overreacting and then clueless which skill would be appropriate.

In general mesmers can deal with thieves very well. Especially1v1. The place where thieves get the upper hand is the ability to spam blinds. Since all Mesmer phantasms require targets using blind is a pseudo aegis but better because it completely negates all phantasm damage.

A confusion Mesmer can deal with them fairly well… Advantages that mesmers get when dealing with thieves:
1. Confusion is the one condition that thieves cannot cleanse unless they trait specifically.
2. Mesmers get AI that can track thieves immediately upon exiting stealth.
3. Shatters are very good at interrupting the BP/HS combo.
4. Mesmers have Phase Retreat which is great with breaking a bas venom trigger.
5. We can get 2 blocks in a weapon set also an invuln. in another.

Advantages thieves get:
1. Spammable blinds this is almost more powerful then stealth. Especially against mesmers.
2. Obviously better access to stealth as well as amazing traits that can come with it such as regen and faster ini regen.
3. Thieves guild. As far as elites go this is one of the best in the game. These 2 thieves offer constant DPS for their duration. These guys have no space between their attack and I have seen them crit on players for 3k in their attack chains. When dueling thieves on my Mesmer some of them require that I wait for it to come off of cooldown from their previous Duel…
4. The ability to determine the terms of the fight.

Zacchary.6183:

First off how do you even know a permastealthed thief is there?

hrm….gimme a sec….ill go google this…. :P

Arganthium.5638:

swinsk.6410:

If thief is perma stealth he’s not attacking you. If 10 guys can’t drop a thief when he does attack or use a trap you are terrible players.

L2P IMO.

This.

and that.

Zacchary.6183:

First off how do you even know a permastealthed thief is there?

This is comedy gold.

BobbyT.7192:

Arganthium.5638:

swinsk.6410:

If thief is perma stealth he’s not attacking you. If 10 guys can’t drop a thief when he does attack or use a trap you are terrible players.

L2P IMO.

This.

and that.

And those.

If you have ten people place a stealth trap. Problem solved

BTW, being on a top ranked server says nothing about skill.

Wow, I never knew thief players had such a condescending attitude towards people playing another class. Someone asks for advice in dealing with a particular build and you demean others while preaching your L2P-mantra.

How can he/she learn if you refuse to offer assistance? Or is there no assistance because stealth is indeed a broken mechanic without a true counter and you just tell others ‘L2P’ because you wouldn’t know how to counter it either?

Aveneo.2068:

Wow, I never knew thief players had such a condescending attitude towards people playing another class. Someone asks for advice in dealing with a particular build and you demean others while preaching your L2P-mantra.

How can he/she learn if you refuse to offer assistance? Or is there no assistance because stealth is indeed a broken mechanic without a true counter and you just tell others ‘L2P’ because you wouldn’t know how to counter it either?

The reason being is despite the amount of tips we have given the entire community, we still get flamed, trolled and nerfed. We are tired of defending ourselves and would like everyone to roll a thief before they start saying that our class is OP. We don’t want to be kitten but we don’t want to re-L2P 5-6 times in a row while everyone else happily facerolls the game away.

Aveneo.2068:

Wow, I never knew thief players had such a condescending attitude towards people playing another class. Someone asks for advice in dealing with a particular build and you demean others while preaching your L2P-mantra.

How can he/she learn if you refuse to offer assistance? Or is there no assistance because stealth is indeed a broken mechanic without a true counter and you just tell others ‘L2P’ because you wouldn’t know how to counter it either?

Actually countering it is pretty simple. I duel alot on my guardian and there are quite a bit of ways to counter a thief. My favorite is retaliation, but of course not everyone has retal. My second is spamming cc’s and simply dodging his cloak and daggers denying him stealth and the use of blocks, invulnerabilities, protection and such to mitigate any backstab damage. D/P…though…those little buggers…

Either way, there is no excuse when you have ten people. You could have very easily popped a stealth trap and the thief would be dead.

I’d also like to note that the only “true” perma stealth build a thief has is through the use of D/P. Anything else requires Cloak and Dagger which could easily be dodged effectively countering stealth. Being a mesmer, OP could have used his focus pull and GS push on the blinding powders to knock him out and waste his initiative. Or, he could have done the simplest thing and stand in the black powder, denying the thief the ability to stack stealth. Perma stealth will soon be no stealth simply because he would have to snag the mesmer with a heartseeker if he wanted to stack stealth, giving him revealed.

Aveneo.2068:

Wow, I never knew thief players had such a condescending attitude towards people playing another class. Someone asks for advice in dealing with a particular build and you demean others while preaching your L2P-mantra.

How can he/she learn if you refuse to offer assistance? Or is there no assistance because stealth is indeed a broken mechanic without a true counter and you just tell others ‘L2P’ because you wouldn’t know how to counter it either?

Such is the forums, thiefs have spoken.

On a serious note though, if it’s truly a permastealthed thief, why would it be a problem? Even if he did attack and managed somehow to down someone, there’s 9 guys who can revive in this particular situation. Being in stealth doesn’t mean the thief
is invulnerable, so aoe’s work wonders. He either gets downed or has to escape eventually.

I haven’t played mesmer myself, so these tips come from thiefs perspective (against a mesmer or a group with a mesmer). If you have the aggro on the thief, your clones will run towards him or if he is in range, attack him, when the thief comes out of stealth. This doesn’t do much dmg, but it helps the group/mesmer pinpoint the thief really fast.

Most of the time when thief casts shadow refuge, it means he’s in trouble. Either he is low on health and wants to regen his health and assess the situation and/or escape. This is the perfect time for a mesmer to cast temporal curtain, pulling the thief out of the refuge.

A well timed phantasmal berserker is very crucial, especially if the thief is trying to take distance from you or your group.

Roaming without risk is a myth. Thief just happens to own the best mechanic for avoiding and escaping zergs or other unwanted encounters.

Arganthium.5638:

BobbyT.7192:

Arganthium.5638:

swinsk.6410:

If thief is perma stealth he’s not attacking you. If 10 guys can’t drop a thief when he does attack or use a trap you are terrible players.

L2P IMO.

This.

and that.

And those.

And all the above.

Aveneo.2068:

Wow, I never knew thief players had such a condescending attitude towards people playing another class. Someone asks for advice in dealing with a particular build and you demean others while preaching your L2P-mantra.

How can he/she learn if you refuse to offer assistance? Or is there no assistance because stealth is indeed a broken mechanic without a true counter and you just tell others ‘L2P’ because you wouldn’t know how to counter it either?

This irks me for multiple reasons. For one thing, we’ve gone to countless other forums over and over and over again giving people advice, and yet people keep coming to us asking the exact same things over and over again. It’s ridiculous. I’m sorry if we seemed condescending to you, but understand that after people have labeled the thief as “broken” or “OP”, and the only visibly apparent way to keep ANet from nerfing us into oblivion is to keep helping noobs so that they can counter us, we get really tired really quickly of answering questions like this.

For example, some advice to countering I’ve given out in the past:

Today in the Mes forum

A few days ago on the ele forum

Helping out in the Guards forum about a week ago

Countering SR

I mean, I cannot actually think of a single other profession that does this. There was even this not too long ago, where people were actually cheering on Robert Hrouda for giving people advice about how to counter them.

So, I’m sorry you didn’t get the answer you wanted, and perhaps when I get the time I can answer your question better, but please understand that if you’re going to come here and cry “OP”, or, in this case, “broken mechanic”, then realize that people are going to get angry.

As a community, we’re just really mad that this is what we have to do in order to survive.

Walker.3056:

Arganthium.5638:

BobbyT.7192:

Arganthium.5638:

swinsk.6410:

If thief is perma stealth he’s not attacking you. If 10 guys can’t drop a thief when he does attack or use a trap you are terrible players.

L2P IMO.

This.

and that.

And those.

And all the above.

What he said.

Arganthium.5638:

Aveneo.2068:

Wow, I never knew thief players had such a condescending attitude towards people playing another class. Someone asks for advice in dealing with a particular build and you demean others while preaching your L2P-mantra.

How can he/she learn if you refuse to offer assistance? Or is there no assistance because stealth is indeed a broken mechanic without a true counter and you just tell others ‘L2P’ because you wouldn’t know how to counter it either?

This irks me for multiple reasons. For one thing, we’ve gone to countless other forums over and over and over again giving people advice, and yet people keep coming to us asking the exact same things over and over again. It’s ridiculous. I’m sorry if we seemed condescending to you, but understand that after people have labeled the thief as “broken” or “OP”, and the only visibly apparent way to keep ANet from nerfing us into oblivion is to keep helping noobs so that they can counter us, we get really tired really quickly of answering questions like this.

For example, some advice to countering I’ve given out in the past:

Today in the Mes forum

A few days ago on the ele forum

Helping out in the Guards forum about a week ago

Countering SR

I mean, I cannot actually think of a single other profession that does this. There was even this not too long ago, where people were actually cheering on Robert Hrouda for giving people advice about how to counter them.

So, I’m sorry you didn’t get the answer you wanted, and perhaps when I get the time I can answer your question better, but please understand that if you’re going to come here and cry “OP”, or, in this case, “broken mechanic”, then realize that people are going to get angry.

As a community, we’re just really mad that this is what we have to do in order to survive.

Yo momma! …wait wrong thread sorry

Zacchary.6183:

First off how do you even know a permastealthed thief is there?

I KNOW I KNOW!

You walk slower while you are in combat and you only get out of combat if your enemy is FAAAR away

I SOLVED THIS MYSTERY

Oh and weapon swap has a cooldown!

Dear OP,
ANet already answered to your question:
Skill: Toxic Unveiling Shot. Removes stealth and applies poison to target. (25)
and
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stealth_Disruptor_Trap

Kicast.1459:

Dear Arenanet and thief community,
Me as a mesmer feel lost while roaming alone or in group once me and my teamates encounter a perma stealthed thief.
What can I do against a perma stealthed thief ?
I have been reading plenty of Arenanet dev claiming that we have to learn to play against this profession.
I am on the top EU server since beginning. Me and my teamates still do not understand.
Do you feel perma stealth against a 10 men group is not broken ?
What are the counter ?
Now that mesmer are not valuable anymore in zergs whith confusion / time warp nerfs…what can mesmer do while roaming and being chained agressed by untuchable thief ?
Ignore him ? What if the thief does not ignore me ?
Is thief the only class able to roam without risk at all ?
Thanks for your help.

My main is a mesmer. Best way to deal with perma stealth thieves are immob and chills if you can keep him in one spot for 2-3s even if you cant see him 10 ppl will drop a thief in an instant. I can solo most perma stealth thieves with my mesmer but it isn’t easy. The best thing to use imo is staff and sword focus. If they use their shadow refuge then just focus pull them out and they’ll have reveal debuff plus cd on sf now.. at that point simple iwarden, ileap and then blurred frenzy into shatter usually will kill them. Even when traited a thief’s max hp is generally around 16k and that usually means sacrificing armor or power. You should be ok to deal with them. Play a thief for a while at level 80 and you’ll understand

I’m guessing yiu just got trolled. As a thief, I can do that but I do nothing. It’s more of a rogue spy. Between 10 of you, just get some immibolizes and when yiu see that little house on the shadow refugee, spam aoe and use great sword number 5. He wot survive. I’ve also been hit hard by some shatter builds from solo mesmers, far worse then a backstab.

Just stick together if your in a group, he’s waitin for a stray. I see no need for a counter for a spy. Kind of a good role for a thief.

And to people who said he got flamed here, he really find ask for thief help, he was crying out to Anet fr a nerf.

Aveneo.2068:

Wow, I never knew thief players had such a condescending attitude towards people playing another class. Someone asks for advice in dealing with a particular build and you demean others while preaching your L2P-mantra.

How can he/she learn if you refuse to offer assistance? Or is there no assistance because stealth is indeed a broken mechanic without a true counter and you just tell others ‘L2P’ because you wouldn’t know how to counter it either?

There is no assistance because stealth is broken. There is no true counter. You take their “advice” and store it in the back of your mind. Then go level a thief and you will realize just how useless their advice was.

You have to realize that many that give this advice are giving from a thief perspective. They naively think that the other professions can spam like they can. Those that give the advice and actually have a clue about the other professions are simply being deceitful.

Just look at this thread. You referred to a perma stealth thief and they reply with the typical ignorant crap that is to be expected from them. I knew what you meant and so did they. Yet despite that fact, they will intentionally take what you said literally and troll you. It makes sense though if you think about it. It’s a troll profession with a troll mechanic. Does it surprise you that it is most appealing to trolls?

The best thing you can do is be part of the movement. If a large enough group spams with forums with complaints, well, we have anti stealth traps now don’t we…..

The problem is that ANet doesn’t want to do what they need to and that is to dish out a nerf that takes thieves from the top spot in 1vs1 in WvW and puts them at the bottom. Then from there, make the small changes that slowly bring them up. Instead of what they’re doing now which is making small changes to slowly bring them down.

However, Mesmers are not much better. Best keep that in mind.

in addition to what Alchemist said you can also lay down choas field to ruin SR, depending on what you have up / prefer and if you want to use or not use a swap etc.

Starting form the top;

a ’’permatealthed’’ thief will create no trouble for you if he is just heading in, hitting, going out in a small group you can basically ignore him until he makes a mistake and you catch him or with the SR counters me and alchemist just said (they need to stay in SR until it goes down to keep stealth), you can also if you run greatsword use the pushback to push him our of SR.

the risk for theifs is being caught, give anyone a chance to burst them and you will get them on the run or down them and as a mesmer you have a lot of tools to counter everything, if the thief is just spamming heartseeker just get retaliation up via focus and ignore him, he’ll kill himself.

our uses ? i cant believe that your serious, we can still break up zergs, Null field / feedback / focus reflections i wont go on but we have options good players and as your in T1 im sure you have a few would of stopped and moved out of these anyway and failed to break up that zerg, anyone who stands and spams deserves to get downed in my book.

what we can do in roaming? we can solo fully upgraded towers if given enough time you in T1 so i doubt you will get enough time but you can always give it a go, we can take camps like every other class, disrupt supply lines, cloak dolyaks, we can certainly deal with a ’’permastealthed’’ thief once you see them stealth lay down a chaos field or use the focus pull, you’ll get them out the’ll be revealed now run them off or down them.

bottom line is pretty much: a permstealthed thief wont be harming you just watch your back. (once he shows, show him who’s boss).

i have said it before in these forums, and i’ll say it again, i am NO thief (im a mesmer) stealth is NOT broken, its there core mechanic, hell by this logic guardian boons, clones, engineer kits, ranger pets/and or killing them twice and necro pets are also broken

p.s. thiefs are not #1 you obviously have never met a well played bunker ranger, every class in this game can be beat by another spec there is no ‘’spec this to rule them all’’ p.s.s. a well played D/D ele (even after movement nerfs) there stil very hard to catch and kill.

Kicast.1459:

Dear Arenanet and thief community,
I am on the top EU server since beginning. Me and my teamates still do not understand.

well the “Top EU Server” is not filled with the “Top EU players”..
actually it’s filled with the worst players ever that just know how to kill someone with their zerg coverage..
imo L2P

Kicast.1459:

Dear Arenanet and thief community,
Me as a mesmer feel lost while roaming alone or in group once me and my teamates encounter a perma stealthed thief.
What can I do against a perma stealthed thief ?
I have been reading plenty of Arenanet dev claiming that we have to learn to play against this profession.
I am on the top EU server since beginning. Me and my teamates still do not understand.
Do you feel perma stealth against a 10 men group is not broken ?
What are the counter ?
Now that mesmer are not valuable anymore in zergs whith confusion / time warp nerfs…what can mesmer do while roaming and being chained agressed by untuchable thief ?
Ignore him ? What if the thief does not ignore me ?
Is thief the only class able to roam without risk at all ?
Thanks for your help.

Wow, really L2P.

Ask your thief buddy to prepare to burst the other thief when he comes out of stealth.

Wait until you see the blinding powder, then use focus to pull him. This should pull him out of stealth at which time gives your thief buddy an opportunity to burst.

Aveneo.2068:

Wow, I never knew thief players had such a condescending attitude towards people playing another class. Someone asks for advice in dealing with a particular build and you demean others while preaching your L2P-mantra.

How can he/she learn if you refuse to offer assistance? Or is there no assistance because stealth is indeed a broken mechanic without a true counter and you just tell others ‘L2P’ because you wouldn’t know how to counter it either?

I play an ele and thief, am I condescending to myself?

I would like to thank the people who went out of their way and offered substance to this thread after my initial message.

Please note that it was not me asking the question though. I mainly wanted to step in and put an end to all this L2P crap some people are constantly preaching as if it makes them feel pro.

Fact of the matter is that Stealth (in my opinion) is a broken gimmick that offers very little Counter Play. The ‘perma stealth’ troll thief is proof of that.

And so far ANet hasn’t offered any insights in fixing the root of the issue. Instead they simply work around it and try to treat the symptoms but not the disease (that they themselves caused); resulting in equally broken gimmicks from lenghtening reveal (and reverting it because it caused even more harm) to putting forced reveals on traps and siege in WvW. Instead they could/should have focused on changing stealth directly and make it less frequent but more tactical.

The main issue (as I see it) is not the concept of stealth; but the way ANet has implemented it.

From my perspective Stealth should have been a mechanic that would allow for setting up an ‘ambush’ or ‘escape’. But ANet went overboard by attaching so many additional bits of junk through traits. It’s like they couldn’t come up with a more interesting mechanic, so they just went with: “When in doubt, add more (stuff to) stealth”

To me, Stealth could have been a great tactical class-mechanic (for the F# keys) with a limited number of traits to enhance it. Instead they made it a shallow gimmick that’s almost mandatory to use with traits giving out measly little bonuses everywhere.

So personally I think they should have used Stealth for a class-mechanic and used it for F2/F3 with additional effects depending on the type of weapon you had equipped. So using F2 or F3 with a D/D would have a different ‘type’ of Stealth ability compared to using S/D or SB. That would have made Stealth an interesting, dynamic and tactical mechanic. Applying Stealth whenever a Thief breaks wind doesn’t strike me as interesting and makes the Thief look more like a clown that’s trying too hard to be funny.

Back on topic though…

As stated, Push/Pull/Retaliation could work remarkably well as a means to deal with a thief that’s mainly there to troll others. Personally I wouldn’t waste 15 badges+525 karma+10 supply on a single thief though as they are not worth it.

Well,

I would like to thank you for the tips that some of you gave. Particularly Alchemist for the open-minded and constructive feedback.
Some of them were kitten however.
I particularly appreciated the flow of L2P and last but not least one:

“Wait until you see the blinding powder, then use focus to pull him. This should pull him out of stealth at which time gives your thief buddy an opportunity to burst.”

Well it seems that counter to thief is to play with a thief. What a good mechanic.

PS: When I say I belong to top EU server does not mean I am a good player. I am not and I know it. I am just trying to know what I could do if I were a good one. However I have been playing with very good guilds players. They are in the same situation than me: even in Zerg they feel unable to organize counter scouting on harrassing thiefs without … thiefs team.

I saw Osicat vids…pretty kitten good mesmer. I see him win 1v1 duels. While playing close to perfectly with a very good anticipation, he is always about to die and I had the feeling that the thief could have run away whenever he wanted. The thief however played the game of the duel and did not wait for complete CDs return.

And for the advice of rolling a thief…well I did it in sPvP. For the moment 5 games won out of 6. I am tempted to try leveling one in wvw
I was, I am sure, pretty lucky and didn’t play in tournaments. WvW is not tournament though.

Kicast.1459:

Well,

I would like to thank you for the tips that some of you gave. Particularly Alchemist for the open-minded and constructive feedback.
Some of them were kitten however.
I particularly appreciated the flow of L2P and last but not least one:

“Wait until you see the blinding powder, then use focus to pull him. This should pull him out of stealth at which time gives your thief buddy an opportunity to burst.”

Well it seems that counter to thief is to play with a thief. What a good mechanic.

PS: When I say I belong to top EU server does not mean I am a good player. I am not and I know it. I am just trying to know what I could do if I were a good one. However I have been playing with very good guilds players. They are in the same situation than me: even in Zerg they feel unable to organize counter scouting on harrassing thiefs without … thiefs team.

I saw Osicat vids…pretty kitten good mesmer. I see him win 1v1 duels. While playing close to perfectly with a very good anticipation, he is always about to die and I had the feeling that the thief could have run away whenever he wanted. The thief however played the game of the duel and did not wait for complete CDs return.

And for the advice of rolling a thief…well I did it in sPvP. For the moment 5 games won out of 6. I am tempted to try leveling one in wvw
I was, I am sure, pretty lucky and didn’t play in tournaments. WvW is not tournament though.

Oh sorry, I thought you were running in a group with another thief. My bad.

With that being said, I stand behind my previous comment – L2P. Here’s another tip, you see the blinding powder? Teleport right in the middle of it.

Zacchary.6183:

Walker.3056:

Arganthium.5638:

BobbyT.7192:

Arganthium.5638:

swinsk.6410:

If thief is perma stealth he’s not attacking you. If 10 guys can’t drop a thief when he does attack or use a trap you are terrible players.

L2P IMO.

This.

and that.

And those.

And all the above.

What he said.

That’s what they all say.

Aveneo.2068:

Wow, I never knew thief players had such a condescending attitude towards people playing another class. Someone asks for advice in dealing with a particular build and you demean others while preaching your L2P-mantra.

How can he/she learn if you refuse to offer assistance? Or is there no assistance because stealth is indeed a broken mechanic without a true counter and you just tell others ‘L2P’ because you wouldn’t know how to counter it either?

do you know what? I am a thief since the first beta and the thief is the class I have played the most since then, nerf after nerf I have adapted to every changes.
The thief is also the class I can have my easiest wins against, because I know almost anything about it and I know how to counter it.
So for me yeah, it’s only a Learn to play issue..
Also I don’t want to give you any advice on how to fight against other thieves, no one cared to explain me how to fight against every other class, nor I didn’t come on the forum every time I couldn’t win a fight. I have adapted, I have learnt and I still make mistakes sometimes.
So my only advice is to go out there and fight, lose and learn from your mistakes, also adapt your build and your playstile fight after fight, and remember.. the class or the build that can seem strong to you, it’s easy to fight against for someone else with a different spec.
Now go and learn to play

Kicast.1459:

Now that mesmer are not valuable anymore in zergs whith confusion / time warp nerfs…

You really have no idea how much the balance of a fight changes once Mesmers start throwing their kitten around? I do. And it’s extremely scary to have more Mesmers on the opposing side. Mesmer is one of the strongest professions both in group, roaming and for its insane utility. For everything else, look at the other thieves responses.