Guild Wars 2

I’ve read so many posts about how people think Thief is over-powered and not fair because of the high spike damage Thieves can dish out. (Can – has the potential to but only possible with skilled players and builds.)

I play a Thief and I really like it. I like to dodge, stealth, plan, and time my attacks. Sometimes I can really do some high damage, and sometimes it just doesn’t work out. A lot of times, my opponents are more skilled than me and have more experience and I die. I don’t complain that “Guardian’s are too hard to kill…” or “Mesmer’s are OP because…” or “It’s not fair that Ranger’s….”. Instead, I read up on the forums and try to figure out a way to come back at my opponent’s in a better way to yield my victory. I’m not the best Thief player, heck, I die so often in PvP or WvW. But I love the way the class plays, it’s fun! I don’t charge into battle, I hang back and sneak up on a player who isn’t paying attention to me and bam! Slice, dice and fillet! Then shrink back to the shadows and wait for another opportunity.

Are not Thieves supposed to be elusive, dancing in and out of shadows and being totally annoying rascals distracting and being a nuisance to give the advantage to ourselves, at least our allies? The Thief class was meant to peave people off!

Fine, a rant, I hate fighting “OP” Mesmer’s because I’m always distracted by their crazy freaking illusions… oh wait… that’s why they’re Mesmers, that’s why they’re awesome!

I just read a particular post, about a guy playing as Guardian in either PvP or WvW against a female Thief, one on one. He was complaining so hard about how the Thief was constantly running, or dodging, or invisible, and so hard to kill. How he would almost kill her and she’d vanish and re-appear with most of her health back. He would chase her down almost endlessly.

Well holy cookies batman! Isn’t a Thief supposed to do that? Did she distract you from guarding your post? Yes. Did she pull you away from your goal? Yes. Did you repair that wall? No. Did you guard that supply run? No. Did she even kill you? No. But are at whits end because she annoyed the heck out of you and you got nothing for it? Amen and hallelujah!

I’d love to play as good as her and then read the forums to figure a way to come back and back stab you… for ten OMG trillion damage… Firstly, that is what you call “OP”, secondly, that still wouldn’t kill you because you’re playing an “OP” Guardian, which make Guardians awesome!

Or an “OP” Warrior which could kill a Thief with auto-attack, and by-the-way, makes Warriors awesome!

Arrrgggh!!!!! Sure, some of my examples were off-the-cuff, tongue-in-cheek, but the story of the Guardian vs Thief is true and you can read it on these forums.

And I know that a lot of people are going to reply to this post and still complain about Thieves because their reasoning behind the complaint is valid. To them, and all haters, why can’t you just learn to beat us? It’s possible, we’re not invincible. Read your appropriate forum and change the way you play if you want a certain outcome, ie: killing a Thief. And if you have or can beat Thieves, then what are you complaining about?

Should probably go into the thief feedback thread imo. There is alot of Defend-a-Thief and Nerf-a-Thief threads.

It ends up in the same conversation over and over with the same things said. This thread will be an example of that I am sure. Should have just posted this in the feedback thread.

I was just there in that feedback thread, and thought it might inappropriate since this wasn’t really feedback, just a rant. I didn’t want to follow the other’s who ranted in a feedback thread.

I enjoyified your rizant. I’m new to GW2 and chose Thief because hiding in darkness is neat-o. I’m only lvl 36 so far but it’s been a blastypoo.

Experienced, skill players can easily avoid the heavy burst thieves. They really are the easiest target in the game. These aren’t the people complaining on the forums though.

It happens because often people try to do something their class is not supposed to do.

A guardian can’t easily kill a thief? He ISN’T supposed to easily kill ANYTHING.
A warrior whines because he can’t run away as fastly as a thief? He ISN’T supposed to be able to escape easily!

We, as thieves, don’t moan because we’re not able to tank 5 people, or to cast spells from the distance, or to survive inside a zerg fight.

I’ve read so many posts about how people think Thief is over-powered and not fair because of the high spike damage Thieves can dish out. (Can – has the potential to but only possible with skilled players and builds.)

The people who don’t have a problem with it don’t complain about it on the forums; the people who do have a problem obviously haven’t heeded any advice they’ve been given, so why would they stop?

As a thief who has other level 80s, I don’t have a problem with thieves because I always know what they are doing while invis and I look for the auto attack animation change on hit. Thieves are not invincible when invis which is what a lot of people tend to forget.

Conclusion: if you hate thieves, play as one, learn how they think and then you can destroy them.

TNoD.8143:

As a thief who has other level 80s, I don’t have a problem with thieves because I always know what they are doing while invis and I look for the auto attack animation change on hit. Thieves are not invincible when invis which is what a lot of people tend to forget.

Conclusion: if you hate thieves, play as one, learn how they think and then you can destroy them.

Spot on! It’s a L2P issue like I’ve said all along.

Lofat.2406:

TNoD.8143:

As a thief who has other level 80s, I don’t have a problem with thieves because I always know what they are doing while invis and I look for the auto attack animation change on hit. Thieves are not invincible when invis which is what a lot of people tend to forget.

Conclusion: if you hate thieves, play as one, learn how they think and then you can destroy them.

Spot on! It’s a L2P issue like I’ve said all along.

Disagree, it was definitely a culling issue.
Now thieves are not nearly as menacing.
I used to have to run since they could kill me before I would see them but now I think I can take on (or at least put of a fight with) any thief that isn’t amazing :P

The majority of complaints about thieves fall into two categories.

1) Bad players who play other classes: They’ll get pwned in a few seconds to a GC thief when they were alone and not paying attention, then re-spawn and come back for more. They will then almost kill said thief, who will stealth and run away because they realize the game is up. Original bad player will then complain because thieves do so much damage and they can never kill them.

2) Bad players who play thieves because they got owned by one: They watch the videos of well played thieves dishing out tons of damage in sPVP/single-handedly kill a small zerg in WvW. They then go out and try this for themselves where they get owned. They then complain that thieves are too weak because only good players do well with them.

I personally think thieves are at a very precarious position. Nerf them and they will become incredibly weak, buff them and they become incredibly strong. I think the fact that they are not balanced very well is the main issue. The only reason why some skills seem/are so powerful/op is because we can spam then several times in a few seconds (heartseaker/C&D), then stealth/SB kite while waiting for initiative recharge.

/2cents

Nowadays I tend to avoid this sub-forum, as it either makes me angry or hurt myself face palming.

In all seriousness, I don’t know why we get so much hate, it’s just stupid. I mean, people don’t seem to realise HOW MUCH EASIER it is to battle a profession that you have actually played.

Me v Warrior before I played one = Difficult
Me v Warrior after I got one to 80 and had experience with it = Easier

People always get frustrated by thieves and much of this is because they haven’t learned how not to fall prey to a backstab. However even though I have played a thief since pre-launch I only tried using Cloak and Dagger in WvW last night (I mean it wasn’t even trained as I have a natural aversion to running builds everyone else is doing) and man – is it easy mode or what. Stealth every 3 seconds and stun lock. despite that good players will always be good but add this easy mode with culling issues no wonder people hate on the thief.

@OP: If you die in a 1on1, you did something wrong. You don’t have to, you can just walk/teleport away. This is why people hate thieves, even with the annoying stealth and insane damage, we can engage and disengage whenever we want. Waiting for the appropriate time to strike (again) will leave us victorious no matter the opponent. Use some survivability if you can’t anticipate your enemy very well yet. Once you do, you can go glass cannon and not have a care in the world..

Causic.3798:

Lofat.2406:

TNoD.8143:

As a thief who has other level 80s, I don’t have a problem with thieves because I always know what they are doing while invis and I look for the auto attack animation change on hit. Thieves are not invincible when invis which is what a lot of people tend to forget.

Conclusion: if you hate thieves, play as one, learn how they think and then you can destroy them.

Spot on! It’s a L2P issue like I’ve said all along.

Disagree, it was definitely a culling issue.
Now thieves are not nearly as menacing.
I used to have to run since they could kill me before I would see them but now I think I can take on (or at least put of a fight with) any thief that isn’t amazing :P

Disagree… It was and still is a L2P issue. You’ve just probably gotten better and stopped running away from them. I haven’t noticed it being any harder or more complicated with or without culling. The only thing I have noticed is that people are still complaining about thieves. If it’s not culling, it’s stealth, if it’s not stealth, it’s backstab or something else.

lol@the blatant/shameless defending of the culling abuse that was going on.

NO, if it were a l2p issue, all classes would have equal complaints. thieves get 90% of the complaints, so, by definition, it cannot simply be a l2p issue. People don’t like perma stealthing, highest dps players who can also move faster in stealth than can most classes unstealthed.

because thieves are not fun to fight. they are gone every 2 seconds and then they reappear, backstab and then are gone again.

when they are losing they just stealth and you never see them again. no other class requires as little skill as a thief and has the potential for griefing other than maybe mesmers.

vespers.1759:

because thieves are not fun to fight. they are gone every 2 seconds and then they reappear, backstab and then are gone again.

when they are losing they just stealth and you never see them again. no other class requires as little skill as a thief and has the potential for griefing other than maybe mesmers.

Ahhh, that must be it, because you can’t figure out how to fight against a thief so that clearly means thieves are the players lacking any skill…. tell me that’s not a L2P issue…

Lofat.2406:

vespers.1759:

because thieves are not fun to fight. they are gone every 2 seconds and then they reappear, backstab and then are gone again.

when they are losing they just stealth and you never see them again. no other class requires as little skill as a thief and has the potential for griefing other than maybe mesmers.

Ahhh, that must be it, because you can’t figure out how to fight against a thief so that clearly means thieves are the players lacking any skill…. tell me that’s not a L2P issue…

not a l2p issue when the culling bug continues to give thieves permastealth, no.

Columba.9730:

NO, if it were a l2p issue, all classes would have equal complaints. thieves get 90% of the complaints, so, by definition, it cannot simply be a l2p issue. …

They can off course chose to remain a bad player. Fact is that one player that learned to play against thieves shows all those complaints of 100 others for the QQing it actually is.

Thief, as opponent, plays radically different. To put it in exaggeration, if you learned something to fight one class, you’ve learned something to fight against all classes except thieves.

Columba.9730:

not a l2p issue when the culling bug continues to give thieves permastealth, no.

Culling should be partially fixed now, at least for small fights?

actually culling isn’t fixed, not for any fights. again if it’s a l2p issue, where are all the complaints against rangers, necros,engineers, etc.

Columba.9730:

actually culling isn’t fixed, not for any fights. again if it’s a l2p issue, where are all the complaints against rangers, necros,engineers, etc.

I explained it. Read my post before replying to it, then post your reasoning, but don’t just repeat yourself.

no, you didn’t explain it. bad players would die to all classes if it were just a l2p issue. Why do the bad players only focus on thieves.

Columba.9730:

no, you didn’t explain it. bad players would die to all classes if it were just a l2p issue. Why do the bad players only focus on thieves.

Yes, I did, you simply never read anything, you just keep repeating your mantra’s over and over and over again.

You are right thieves suck and should get a buff, I eat them for breakfast with my necromancer GC , easy kills, they are like rabbits in pvp, you sneeze at them and they die. Even the rank 40+ thieves in paids are easy targets.

People hate thieves because they are by far the easiest to learn and play, due to initiative instead of CD’s. Other classes have to be way more cautious when to use their skills, while a thief ain’t in that much of a trouble even if he makes 1 wrong decision.

Yet they are one, if not the most effective class for multiple aspects and that with minimal effort.
BTW: You say you can’t support? Shortbow has the best on demand blast finisher ingame and I hope I don’t need to explain how important those blast finishers can be.

Classes based around a stealth mechanic will ALLWAYS be on the witchhunt. You just have to grow some thick fur for that. Still in this game stealth is the most overpowered one I have ever seen in any game. There’s literally no counter to it. In other games multiple classes had either improved stealth detection or could get the rogue/thief/whatever you call them out of stealth. Any other game atleast gave the enemy a chance to see them when they were facing in the right direction and were close to them.
On top of that stealth won’t break on damage, you even blind nearby foes / cleanse conditions when entering or heal yourself if traited right. Stealth currently is a one trick pony. Where other profs have to use so many skills to achieve the same you just have to press 1 button.

But the biggest issues people have with thieves in generall is their attitude and denial.

silvershadez.8421:

But the biggest issues people have with thieves in general is their attitude and denial.

QFT. My 1st 80 was a thief and I am under no misconceptions that thieves are a scrub class and can pull of kitten other classes could only dream of. This is in a WvW setting.

I’ve been gaming since UO and you are absolutely correct. Stealth is a broken mechanic in this game. There are zero drawbacks to having it/using it. My thief can regen a kitten ton of HP, remove conditions and there ain’t kitten anyone can do about it since I can chain my stealth back to back when it suits me. I can do this and still dish out enough damage to kill decent players. And if I feel the heats getting too much I can always book it out of dodge and live to fight another day.

Don’t get me wrong it’s fun playing my thief, but I’m not disillusioned thinking it was all skill and not the class’ mechanic that allowed me to be victorious in a 1v3+ (competent players).

Anyone who does needs to wake up and I challenge them to try the same kitten on a warrior/ranger/necro (COMPETENT players, not underleveled, undergeared, underplayed, etc.)

Shojen.2764:

I’ve read so many posts about how people think Thief is over-powered and not fair because of the high spike damage Thieves can dish out. (Can – has the potential to but only possible with skilled players and builds.)

I play a Thief and I really like it. I like to dodge, stealth, plan, and time my attacks. Sometimes I can really do some high damage, and sometimes it just doesn’t work out. A lot of times, my opponents are more skilled than me and have more experience and I die. I don’t complain that “Guardian’s are too hard to kill…” or “Mesmer’s are OP because…” or “It’s not fair that Ranger’s….”. Instead, I read up on the forums and try to figure out a way to come back at my opponent’s in a better way to yield my victory. I’m not the best Thief player, heck, I die so often in PvP or WvW. But I love the way the class plays, it’s fun! I don’t charge into battle, I hang back and sneak up on a player who isn’t paying attention to me and bam! Slice, dice and fillet! Then shrink back to the shadows and wait for another opportunity.

Are not Thieves supposed to be elusive, dancing in and out of shadows and being totally annoying rascals distracting and being a nuisance to give the advantage to ourselves, at least our allies? The Thief class was meant to peave people off!

Fine, a rant, I hate fighting “OP” Mesmer’s because I’m always distracted by their crazy freaking illusions… oh wait… that’s why they’re Mesmers, that’s why they’re awesome!

I just read a particular post, about a guy playing as Guardian in either PvP or WvW against a female Thief, one on one. He was complaining so hard about how the Thief was constantly running, or dodging, or invisible, and so hard to kill. How he would almost kill her and she’d vanish and re-appear with most of her health back. He would chase her down almost endlessly.

Well holy cookies batman! Isn’t a Thief supposed to do that? Did she distract you from guarding your post? Yes. Did she pull you away from your goal? Yes. Did you repair that wall? No. Did you guard that supply run? No. Did she even kill you? No. But are at whits end because she annoyed the heck out of you and you got nothing for it? Amen and hallelujah!

I’d love to play as good as her and then read the forums to figure a way to come back and back stab you… for ten OMG trillion damage… Firstly, that is what you call “OP”, secondly, that still wouldn’t kill you because you’re playing an “OP” Guardian, which make Guardians awesome!

Or an “OP” Warrior which could kill a Thief with auto-attack, and by-the-way, makes Warriors awesome!

Arrrgggh!!!!! Sure, some of my examples were off-the-cuff, tongue-in-cheek, but the story of the Guardian vs Thief is true and you can read it on these forums.

And I know that a lot of people are going to reply to this post and still complain about Thieves because their reasoning behind the complaint is valid. To them, and all haters, why can’t you just learn to beat us? It’s possible, we’re not invincible. Read your appropriate forum and change the way you play if you want a certain outcome, ie: killing a Thief. And if you have or can beat Thieves, then what are you complaining about?

Thats Guardian was me. And seriously I though Thiefs are OP untill I rolled and tried one.

Never though this class requires so much skill ( comapred to my Guard in staying alive ) and or killing someone. Sure walking around in stealth is fun But at same time I need to be aware of whos around me… cause eating 6-8k dmg form warriors whirl or guardian pull + WW isn’t fun.

I think now that most ppl hate thiefs cause they think they are very easy to play and Steal & backstab combo is really easy to do – and in some ways it actually is. But really all it requires is some Low aoes and im down because of hp pool…

If those people would roll a thief and try them out, see how hard it is to pull some combos off and at same time avoid heavy hitting attacks. With guard I could run in the middle of spvp fight, get few kills of and still be alive at the end. with thief it’s totaly different story…

Bedlam.3562:

silvershadez.8421:

But the biggest issues people have with thieves in general is their attitude and denial.

QFT. My 1st 80 was a thief and I am under no misconceptions that thieves are a scrub class and can pull of kitten other classes could only dream of. This is in a WvW setting.

I’ve been gaming since UO and you are absolutely correct. Stealth is a broken mechanic in this game. There are zero drawbacks to having it/using it. My thief can regen a kitten ton of HP, remove conditions and there ain’t kitten anyone can do about it since I can chain my stealth back to back when it suits me. I can do this and still dish out enough damage to kill decent players. And if I feel the heats getting too much I can always book it out of dodge and live to fight another day.

Don’t get me wrong it’s fun playing my thief, but I’m not disillusioned thinking it was all skill and not the class’ mechanic that allowed me to be victorious in a 1v3+ (competent players).

Anyone who does needs to wake up and I challenge them to try the same kitten on a warrior/ranger/necro (COMPETENT players, not underleveled, undergeared, underplayed, etc.)

Well. I played thiefs in most mmos ( apart form gw2 untill some time ago ) and tbh Thief in it’s current state need such possibility to stealth because we have no other ways to avoid serious damage and we have really low hp.

It’s not world of warcraft where You could get off stealth and keep up with warrior fighting 1v1 like a champ. Here a thief vs warrior with no stealth and all thief “fun” skills we would melt in a seconds just to for example double evisc which warrior can put out with 1 signet use.

Yes it may seem that thiefs are OP when it comes to stealth but if not that stealth we would die in blink of an eye.

You want to be less stealthy ? Tell Anet to boost our hp and give us more tools to evade attacks, like blocks etc. I know there are builds around blind but it’s not enough. blind works only for 1 attack and it’s not spammable…

Aion had interesting thief design. there was also stealth, backstabbs, but thief had many was to build around – also low hp, but thier dmg and crits were amazing. so even fighting 1v1 gladiator ( who had far more hp then you ) you could win because your dmg was twice like his.

Here in GW2 warrior power/prec/crit build with axe hit #1 can getdown thief in 1 chain. and this is not funny.

I’d like to see all thiefs running around with no stealth ( or stealth working like in WoW – prema untill combat + skill on 2 min cd for restealth ).

Every class seem to have flaws. Look at warriors. everyone are comaplaining on 20k kill shot hits. And you just have to dodge… thats it.. but still ppl are asking for nerf. same thing with evisc + 100b combo.

Thief needs to pick up 1 weak target in zerg to kill it. warrior just runs in with 100b + +quckness and watch ppl fall on floor….

same for guardians, ELES. yes ELES. Only classes currently that are weak and require some love are rangers and engis.

Also Non good or competent player in 3v1 fight would lose to a thief. If someone have brain he will easily kill You. I’ve seen tons of videos when thiefs gone to stealth and 4 “competetive” players were just standing there doing nothing watiting for thief to kill them.

Also WVW is not a real PVP. most ppl there are “PVE pros” who have no clue nor idea about PvP. go to TPvP. any even low skilled team wont allow you to do stuff that you cna pull of in WvW.

You don’t need stealth to stay alive. I could beat a warrior with ease without stealth at any day. Just pick a D/D condi spec and time your evasive moves right. Theres nothing the warrior can do about it.

My thief is my tankiest character. No he can’t take a beating (like my guardian) he just avoids them with superior mobility and all those cool evasive moves.

My previous post was just pointing out why people might tend to hate thieves.

Imo COndi build thiefs are even more annoying then stealth backstabbers.

They stack conditions far to fast and are hard to counter. You don’t have condi removal on demand each 5 seconds.

Even guardian cannot remove bleed so fast as fast thief can apply it. and 10s passive remove ? 10s for bleed is around 20k dmg when Your full condi dmg build.

And still 99% of those thiefs run with healing on hit skill, apply bleeds and go stealth.

also the same warrior you mentioned You can beat in condi spec can just simply wait when You go out of initiative and eviscerate you twice in 2 seconds leaving your dead body on gorund. same warr can get shield block.

also those evasive moves are more op then stealth. they cost is low and they allow you to have almost constant evasion on demand. a stealth thief at least can get hit while his in stealth

Condition builds are annoying mostly for warriors and guardians, because they can’t not let the thief just stand there and wait for them to die.

silvershadez.8421:

You don’t need stealth to stay alive. I could beat a warrior with ease without stealth at any day. Just pick a D/D condi spec and time your evasive moves right. Theres nothing the warrior can do about it.

My thief is my tankiest character. No he can’t take a beating (like my guardian) he just avoids them with superior mobility and all those cool evasive moves.

My previous post was just pointing out why people might tend to hate thieves.

What if I don’t want to leave my S/D control/support build?
The more I look at it the more it seems apparent to me, Dagger Mainhand is the most hated weapon is GW2. It has the Backstab, it has the Heartseeker, it has Death Blossom which can apply stacks of bleeds to multiple enemys while evading.

The only problem I have with the Thief is the next to permanent stealth builds (thanks to mainly Cloak and Dagger), which makes it impossible to play against, because you can’t counter something you can’t see. But other then that, I think the Thief is just fine. In my experience, the burst damage that kills players in two hits are often more as a result of luck then anything ells.

Most of the complaints come from WvW and some people think WvW=1v1’s or even 1v3’s. It happens if your out by yourself I roll condi thief solo alot if I come up against 2 bunker guardians when I am out roaming its just better for me to leave because it will probably take me 30 minutes to just to get 1 stomp if I get 1 at all. So many blinds and aegis running around its better to disengage that fight and keep trucking.

If you look at what WvW is about its about objectives and PPT+ kills don’t get tallied up for PPT at all. What is more important for score/winning fighting a 1v3 or 1v1 or taking a camp? Thieves are really good at distracting people / groups I have had 5-10 people chasing me before while I laugh and think to myself these 5-10 people could be manning some siege somewhere or taking a camp in the amount of time they have been chasing me.

The people complaining I think are the ones that have a mindset of “See=Kill” if they see enemy they must kill enemy. I am sure many people have seen times when your rolling with your zerg of say 20+ and 15 break off just to kill 1 enemy player. When those people realize that objectives>kills in WvW then you will see less complaints till then they will keep coming.

As a Thief I say we are definitely OP in WvW, but that is because our nerfs dont apply there.
In sPvP where all nerfs apply we are very balanced.

Just apply PvP nerfs to WvW anet, quit pretending that WvW is PvE.

Red Falcon.8257:

As a Thief I say we are definitely OP in WvW, but that is because our nerfs dont apply there.
In sPvP where all nerfs apply we are very balanced.

Just apply PvP nerfs to WvW anet, quit pretending that WvW is PvE.

I would say that you would still see higher numbers in WvW just because you can tweak your gear more in WvW than PvP. Then the solution would be just remove everyones trinkets and give them on the sPvP trinkets. Then stacking sigils would have to be changed etc.

The only thief specific nerf I am aware of that is different in sPvP is daze on tactical strike when you use a sigil of paralyzation. Other than that isn’t crit damage calculated different in sPvP which is not specific to just thieves.

Red Falcon.8257:

Just apply PvP nerfs to WvW anet, quit pretending that WvW is PvE.

Then Wvw should also have PvP equipment, no food, etc …

I hate thieves for two reasons: Too high single target damage & stealth:
Their DPS is insane and they can kill anyone in 3 seconds. Stealth is a larger issue, when I’m fighting a thief and I’m winning, he/she simply goes into stealth to run away, is this fun? No. I feel thief always have the upperhand in a battle with stealth, they use it to control the battle, something no other class can do, it gives them the opening strike which is very important. If that is not enough, most of their skills can evade any attack, it can be hard sometimes to even hit them as they fastly run/fly around you and kill you. But especially the running away with stealth part is what pisses me off the most. A good fix would be an longer CD for stealth skills in combat, or decrease the stealth duration in combat and decrease the movement speed in stealth.
I’ve played a thiefish class before in another MMORPG, and there, they were pretty balanced. They could go into stealth for 3 minutes (!), but it was not possible during combat, their dps was high, but their HP and defense was very, very low. Or your target was dead, or you were dead.

(Opinion of an active WvW player)

I don’t feel the damage is a problem. If my thief could pump out the amount of damage my warrior could, then I would agree with you. But that’s not the case.

thieves hit me far harder than warriors ever do. it’s easy to avoid warrior high dps shots. thieves should have a stealth debuff after attacking.

Riselight.3695:

I hate thieves for two reasons: Too high single target damage & stealth:
Their DPS is insane and they can kill anyone in 3 seconds. Stealth is a larger issue, when I’m fighting a thief and I’m winning, he/she simply goes into stealth to run away, is this fun? No. I feel thief always have the upperhand in a battle with stealth, they use it to control the battle, something no other class can do, it gives them the opening strike which is very important. If that is not enough, most of their skills can evade any attack, it can be hard sometimes to even hit them as they fastly run/fly around you and kill you. But especially the running away with stealth part is what pisses me off the most. A good fix would be an longer CD for stealth skills in combat, or decrease the stealth duration in combat and decrease the movement speed in stealth.
I’ve played a thiefish class before in another MMORPG, and there, they were pretty balanced. They could go into stealth for 3 minutes (!), but it was not possible during combat, their dps was high, but their HP and defense was very, very low. Or your target was dead, or you were dead.

(Opinion of an active WvW player)

I know its opinion so I am not insulting or anything just to put that out there.

You say decreasing stealth duration would be a possible fix but if you don’t have 15 points in shadow arts then your stealth from a CnD is only 2 secs anyway. If a theif puts all his points in power and crit he has 10 points left and cant get an extra second of stealth duration. He has to put them somewhere else most put the 10 in sa or maybe trick for fury.

Not every thief can kill anyone in 3 seconds it all depends on how they spec which applies to other classes also. If you spec damage you do damage. Also a thief that specs to kill someone in 3 seconds which is pretty long and I am sure a warrior can kill in 3 secs if specced for it) has to blow all cd’s.

A thief can get away pretty easy in plan sight in WvW. I run up to say your group of 3 or 4 poke at you. You want to kill me so I use infiltrator arrow(900m)/shadowstep(1200m)/steal on a mob(900m can be traited to 1200m)/traited thrill of the crime for swiftness(+8% movement speed since 33% is cap on movement speed)/with SoS. I pretty much got away, if you get to close in pursuit I use disabling shot a few times (stacks duration). Could also add caltrops(utility skill) to that mix for a aoe cripple. If good at 360 degree turn I could run withdraw to add more distance(15 sec cd). All of those skills require no stealth at all to pull off. Only 2 uses initiative. Only thing catching me is maybe a ele, or warrior. If the fact that a thief can leave a fight when they want is your biggest issue with thief it has to do with mobility not stealth.

Does stealth help to disengage yea but you can disengage all day long with out it.

Columba.9730:

thieves hit me far harder than warriors ever do. it’s easy to avoid warrior high dps shots. thieves should have a stealth debuff after attacking.

Thieves don’t do their main damage out stealth they do it from stealth. Unless your pistol/pistol, sword/dagger, sword/pistol.

If your suggestion would be implemented then a d/d thiefs best opener they could muster for damage would be cnd(with your proposed debuff so no stealth) mug (is this suggested debuff stacking or not?) then auto attack or heartseeker (debuff still stacking?)

Lets assume the debuff stacks then the thief would have open with above then stand around waiting for debuff to wear off to cloak (cnd would just become a attack no invis at all since it has this suggested debuff) cloak would then have to come from Blinding powder, shadow refuge, traited steal, instinctual response, last refuge. Those would have to be run by every d/d thief in order to do damage for backstab. They get backstab off with reveal debuff then they have to use 1 of the above to get back in stealth or auto attack you making thieves absolutely terrible and free kills.

No one would use d/d at all if that was the case. So then thieves all run s/d, d/p, s/p, p/p. Eventually all thieves only run s/d as that is probably the best set you can run with out stealth. So basically your suggestion would make people want to avoid a spec that needs stealth to get good damage out of it but provide some form of sustain. Sounds like a total class rework to me with that suggestion.

I honestly think a class rework is required. highest dps, permastealth from culling and best mobility is a laughable combination to give one class.

Kasama.8941:

The only problem I have with the Thief is the next to permanent stealth builds (thanks to mainly Cloak and Dagger), which makes it impossible to play against, because you can’t counter something you can’t see.

This is not true. Here is why, from someone who leveled and geared a Thief to learn how to beat them.

A thief using Cloak and Dagger to stealth 90% of the time is extremely predictable and easy enough to counter. Why? Because CnD requires something to stab to gain stealth. If he’s using a player to CnD on, use your AoE or better, knockbacks, on your/their location. If he’s attacking PVE mobs or siege for his stealth, focus on those areas. CnD stealth lasts 3 seconds, 4 with traits. Count it out and use your abilities.

One good knockback, stun, series of critical hits when he’s stealthed or a mistake on his part and the games over. The Thief is either running, downed or low. Victory.

Oh and the “better” permanent stealth build uses d/p, smoke field on 5 and Heartseeker leap for stealth. This doesn’t require melee except to deal damage, blinds at the smoke field and makes escape incredibly easy because you can reapply stealth via pistol5+dagger2 combo while stealthed.

If you’re playing a melee build and getting trolled or beaten by a permanent stealth Thief, this is a “learn to play” issue. You don’t need a target to swing a melee weapon and deal damage or even down a Thief.

It’s not flawless, clever Thieves can still escape sometimes, but it’s a start for those feeling helpless.

Columba.9730:

thieves hit me far harder than warriors ever do. it’s easy to avoid warrior high dps shots. thieves should have a stealth debuff after attacking.

You’re in denial… I don’t see thieves one shotting 80’s for 18k+ like my warrior does with killshot. They are probably light armored GC builds but regardless, thieves can’t do that. And it’s a ranged ability that is so easily followed up with volley for another 10k+…

Red Falcon.8257:

As a Thief I say we are definitely OP in WvW, but that is because our nerfs dont apply there.
In sPvP where all nerfs apply we are very balanced.

Just apply PvP nerfs to WvW anet, quit pretending that WvW is PvE.

If they did that then it would have to be across the board they would also have to remove or reduce the difficulty of all PvE elements of WvW. So what you would be looking it as nerfs to every class and adjustment to all mobs. I don’t think that’s going to happen but who knows.

Look wvw is inherently unbalanced. You can be over run by one side that has superior forces. So builds mean diddly squat at the end of the day. If you want a fair fight that’s what Spvp is for. I mean its very stupid to assume the place for gankers would be fair.

Why the Thief hate?
There are a lot of reasons. Some probably more legit then others.
They generally seem to fall into 3 categories…

1) Stealth
2) Burst Damage
3) Ease of escape from bad situations
(There are more, but those are the big ones people seem to point out the most.)

Each one, if taken by itself, is not so terrible that they could be considered game breaking. Hell, other classes in the game have some of them as well, whether by design or otherwise. (Culling in WvW, for example, can give everyone ‘Stealth’! Warriors can have high burst damage. Etc…)
The problem for many comes when you realize that you have a single class that combines all three.
Nobody really enjoys being ganked by someone they can’t see. Compound that with the fact that they are usually dead before they can react. And then top it off with the fact that, if they aren’t dead, the Thief can vanish and run away with minimal, if any chance for any retaliation.
Despite my signature, I do have a Thief alt, and this generally sums up things from my point of view.
Lets put it another way… I’m going to attack you, and my attacks are going to basically unplug your keyboard from your computer, giving you no chance to retaliate or in fact, do much of anything for that matter…
Might be fun for me (Personally, not really…) to put you in a situation where you can do nothing back at me. But I’ll bet that’s not a lot of fun for you…

Lofat.2406:

Columba.9730:

thieves hit me far harder than warriors ever do. it’s easy to avoid warrior high dps shots. thieves should have a stealth debuff after attacking.

You’re in denial… I don’t see thieves one shotting 80’s for 18k+ like my warrior does with killshot. They are probably light armored GC builds but regardless, thieves can’t do that. And it’s a ranged ability that is so easily followed up with volley for another 10k+…

nope. i can see the kill shot coming. not so with thieves.