Guild Wars 2

Why is this http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Basilisk_Venom weaker than this http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deep_Freeze ?

Different skills take into account that different classes need to be balanced around their other abilities. otherwise, each class will just be one class with different animations skins.

and basi has had its fair share of nerfs.

If on paper Deep Freeze seem more powerful than Basilik Venom. Longer Stun duration, shorter Cooldown, also apply chill.

In reality, Basilik is more easy to use, quicker to apply, and when you apply it you are ready to attack.

I’ll give you an exemple. I’m a thief, I approach a target, use my Basilik venom and then steal on him. He’s now stun for 1,5 second, which is enough for me to CnD then Backstab for a 5-8k hit. 45 second later? I’m ready for another round of Stun and hit.

Now i’m a Elementalist. I keep my distance from my target, spawn a Ice Bow, use the skill 5 of him to freeze him. Then what do i do? Drop the bow, use ride lightning, switch attunement then Fire grab? You need to be fast as crazy to be able to pull that off. I could Lighning Flash on my target then use skill 2 of the Ice Bow, maybe drop the bow and then Fire Grab if you’re really quick? So the difference? With Basilik Venom you are ready to hit as soon as the target is stun with a profession famous for its burst down dps in melee. For the Deep Freeze, you are not ready at all to attack, either because of the range or because you don’t have the right weapon ready. Also Deep Freeze is a telegraph attack easy to dodge, while Basilik Venom can come from any attack.

Thaddeus.4891:

If on paper Deep Freeze seem more powerful than Basilik Venom. Longer Stun duration, shorter Cooldown, also apply chill.

In reality, Basilik is more easy to use, quicker to apply, and when you apply it you are ready to attack.

I’ll give you an exemple. I’m a thief, I approach a target, use my Basilik venom and then steal on him. He’s now stun for 1,5 second, which is enough for me to CnD then Backstab for a 5-8k hit. 45 second later? I’m ready for another round of Stun and hit.

Now i’m a Elementalist. I keep my distance from my target, spawn a Ice Bow, use the skill 5 of him to freeze him. Then what do i do? Drop the bow, use ride lightning, switch attunement then Fire grab? You need to be fast as crazy to be able to pull that off. I could Lighning Flash on my target then use skill 2 of the Ice Bow, maybe drop the bow and then Fire Grab if you’re really quick? So the difference? With Basilik Venom you are ready to hit as soon as the target is stun with a profession famous for its burst down dps in melee. For the Deep Freeze, you are not ready at all to attack, either because of the range or because you don’t have the right weapon ready. Also Deep Freeze is a telegraph attack easy to dodge, while Basilik Venom can come from any attack.

You can always drop a Lighting Hammer to your frozen target, leap in with your hammer in hand then pound away. gg

I was thinking of the 5 second non-removable root/stun, in case it wasn’t clear.

Swim.6830:

I was thinking of the 5 second non-removable root/stun, in case it wasn’t clear.

It was really clear and I answered you. Its better on paper because the Eles is never ready to burst down the oppenent as soon as the stun apply with the Ice Bow. On the other end 1,5 sec of the basilik venom is enough for me to get you a clean backstab for 8k dmg. And if the thief run full glass, then its a easy 10-13k dmg on you. An ele can do the same with Deep Freeze, but it take longer, so that’s why the stun is longer and can’t be remove.

Thaddeus.4891:

Swim.6830:

I was thinking of the 5 second non-removable root/stun, in case it wasn’t clear.

It was really clear and I answered you. Its better on paper because the Eles is never ready to burst down the oppenent as soon as the stun apply with the Ice Bow. On the other end 1,5 sec of the basilik venom is enough for me to get you a clean backstab for 8k dmg. And if the thief run full glass, then its a easy 10-13k dmg on you. An ele can do the same with Deep Freeze, but it take longer, so that’s why the stun is longer and can’t be remove.

Your reasoning is inaccurate though. Saying that “Ele is never ready to burst” following a Deep Freeze shows how inexperience you are on using Elementalist.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Your reasoning is inaccurate though. Saying that “Ele is never ready to burst” following a Deep Freeze shows how inexperience you are on using Elementalist.

Then explain to me? Could you burst down someone on an ele if Deep Freeze was only a 1.5 second Stun? If you can then your kitten good. What skills, rotation, movement, etc would you use? The faster I can see is if you are already in Fire with D/D, you use Deep Freeze in 300 range or less, drop the Bow and cast Fire Grab ASAP. Would the rotation last 1,5 second?

Maybe another rotation would be better? I don’t really appreciate you saying hows inexperience I am on my Elementalist. Calm yourself down. Is deep Freeze the new meta with Ele roamer? I NEVER been deep freeze in WvW. Maybe some Ele with their ice Bow for burst AoE used it before dropping the bow, but it so rare and easy to dodge. Don’t talk down on me on something that so few people use. Oh ya i’m such a bad elementalist since i don’t burst people down with Deep Freeze.

Thaddeus.4891:

Then explain to me? Could you burst down someone on an ele if Deep Freeze was only a 1.5 second Stun? What skills, rotation, movement, etc would you use? The faster I can see is if you are already in Fire with D/D, you use Deep Freeze in 300 range or less, drop the Bow and cast Fire Grab ASAP. Would the rotation last 1,5 second?

Maybe another rotation would be better?.

LF + Burning Speed/FGS Rush.

Fire Grab like you suggested would do pitiful damage because they weren’t inflicted with Burning beforehand.

Here’s another two for you, neither are really used in practice:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skelk_Venom
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Litany_of_Wrath

4 attacks (most of which aren’t AoE), vs several attacks in a given time including what’s said in the Notes… (hey why don’t i use a staff when i pop this skill and mush 1…)

But dude… it’s all BALANCED, because we have STEALTH and “insane” damage. (I mentioned stealth, therefore I win. Can’t argue against me because STEALTH.)

Thaddeus.4891:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Your reasoning is inaccurate though. Saying that “Ele is never ready to burst” following a Deep Freeze shows how inexperience you are on using Elementalist.

Then explain to me? Could you burst down someone on an ele if Deep Freeze was only a 1.5 second Stun? If you can then your kitten good.

You call CnD -> Backstab a “burst down” because according to you, that’s all you can do within that 1.5 second window.

What skills, rotation, movement, etc would you use? The faster I can see is if you are already in Fire with D/D, you use Deep Freeze in 300 range or less, drop the Bow and cast Fire Grab ASAP. Would the rotation last 1,5 second?

More like Deep Freeze – > Burning Speed -> Fire Grab while Arcane Power is active.

Maybe another rotation would be better? I don’t really appreciate you saying hows inexperience I am on my Elementalist. Calm yourself down.

I never said that you’re inexperience, I said that your inexperience is showing in your response. You’re the one who need to calm down.

If you are as experience as you said you are, then why would you over look Burning Speed in a D/D set?

Is deep Freeze the new meta with Ele roamer? I NEVER been deep freeze in WvW.

The OP is not talking about what is meta. And I’m simply disputing your inaccurate reasoning that Elementalist cannot burst that’s why they need a 5 second stun. It’s obviously not true.

Maybe some Ele with their ice Bow for burst AoE used it before dropping the bow, but it so rare and easy to dodge.

You can catch someone with Deep Freeze if you’re tactical enough and set them up for it. Basilisk Venom is breakable so it’s less reliable and even in longer cooldown compare to Deep Freeze.

Bottom line is, your reasoning doesn’t justify the lengthy duration of Deep Freeze.

Don’t talk down on me on something that so few people use.

Well, gee, that’s not really the topic here now is it?

Oh ya i’m such a bad elementalist since i don’t burst people down with Deep Freeze.

Nobody here says that you’re bad, just inexperience. A lot of Elementalist who has a lot of experience in many aspect of the game and many other builds never given an Elemental Weapon build a chance, thus the source of their inexperience — and so was yours.

EDIT: Yes now I’m convinced that you are inexperience when it comes to Elemental Weapons.

^ Not to mention frostbow #4, or dragontooth+phoenix+lightning strike, or burning speed+fire grab, or burning speed+ring of fire+lightning strike+lightning whip+arcane wave/blast.

Impact.2780:

^ Not to mention frostbow #4, or dragontooth+phoenix+lightning strike, or burning speed+fire grab, or burning speed+ring of fire+lightning strike+lightning whip+arcane wave/blast.

One baby step at a time.

Let him grasp the concept first, because I’ve seen first hand how an Ele burst someone they caught with Deep Freeze using a Lightning Hammer and finish with a Fire Grab — that’ll be to much for him to comprehend.

Hahaha, deep freeze?

You mean the Frostbow 5 skill with a 1 1/2 sec cast time which misses 9/10 times.

No one, and I mean no one bases an attack sequence reliant on Fb 5. If you find it to be an issue i suggest you walk sideways to avoid it. Yes, you don’t even have to dodge, just walk sideways and it’ll miss you.

Thieves complaining about elementalists, now i’ve seen it all…

phaeris.7604:

Hahaha, deep freeze?

You mean the Frostbow 5 skill with a 1 1/2 sec cast time which misses 9/10 times.

No one, and I mean no one bases an attack sequence reliant on Fb 5. If you find it to be an issue i suggest you walk sideways to avoid it. Yes, you don’t even have to dodge, just walk sideways and it’ll miss you.

Thieves complaining about elementalists, now i’ve seen it all…

Actually my main is Ele, but you know reading skills are rare…

Also it doesn’t miss if you strafe, you need to time the dodge as with any other similar skill (regardless of cast time) and it can shut down someone in a group vs group (spvp) very easily with no counted besides dodge/reflect.

If you haven’t seen people use it, I suggest you get out of the cave and pvp some.

The reason I started this thread was because I was baffled at an obvious difference for 2 similar skills of 2 classes, where one is an elite and the other a spawned weapon. It’s because of crap like this this game will never be balanced.

Nono! I stand down on this, you’re clearly right.

Frostbow 5 is just far too strong, they should make basilisk venom a 5 second stun as well, because i’m sick and tired of all these frostbow elementalists I see all over the place owning faces.

I can’t count the number of times I venture out and get Fb5’d to the face and burst down, it’s just such a common occurence.

Sir Vincents. I repeat myself. I never said Ele can’t burst down someone. I only said that when they use Deep Freeze they are not in a good position to burst down someone immediately and that’s 1 of the reasons why Deep Freeze is on paper better than Basilik Venom.

So your answer was Burning Speed + Fire Grab. Good. That’s two attack of 0.75sec activation time. That’s exactly 1.5sec. My question is can you burst down someone with Deep Freeze if that attack was 1,5sec. You have to drop down the bow, burning speed, fire grab and don’t forget to use Arcane Power. All that in 1,5 sec? I still doubt it. Burning Speed will be in time, but the guys will have time to dodge your Fire Grab. Worst than that, most people first reflex after a stun is to dodge when you are in danger, so most likely that your fire grab will miss the majority of the time.

I called CnD + Backstab because its a burst down and that’s how I play. Of course its not the only option, but that’s the best for me.

Thaddeus.4891:

Sir Vincents. I repeat myself. I never said Ele can’t burst down someone. I only said that when they use Deep Freeze they are not in a good position to burst down someone immediately and that’s 1 of the reasons why Deep Freeze is on paper better than Basilik Venom.

So your answer was Burning Speed + Fire Grab. Good. That’s two attack of 0.75sec activation time. That’s exactly 1.5sec. My question is can you burst down someone with Deep Freeze if that attack was 1,5sec. You have to drop down the bow, burning speed, fire grab and don’t forget to use Arcane Power. All that in 1,5 sec? I still doubt it. Burning Speed will be in time, but the guys will have time to dodge your Fire Grab. Worst than that, most people first reflex after a stun is to dodge when you are in danger, so most likely that your fire grab will miss the majority of the time.

Even then, it doesn’t justify the long duration, which is the OP’s question. If your assertion is accurate, then a 2 seconds duration will suffice, but not 5.

I called CnD + Backstab because its a burst down and that’s how I play. Of course its not the only option, but that’s the best for me.

Basilisk is breakable which will not guarantee that you will burst them down. If you believe that the natural instinct of someone being stunned is to dodge, you’re forgetting that the first response to stun is stun breaker.

phaeris.7604:

Nono! I stand down on this, you’re clearly right.

Frostbow 5 is just far too strong, they should make basilisk venom a 5 second stun as well, because i’m sick and tired of all these frostbow elementalists I see all over the place owning faces.

I can’t count the number of times I venture out and get Fb5’d to the face and burst down, it’s just such a common occurence.

I guess we’ll just pretend something doesn’t exist just because it’s not common enough.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Even then, it doesn’t justify the long duration, which is the OP’s question. If your assertion is accurate, then a 2 seconds duration will suffice, but not 5.

Maybe. I don’t know the real reason behind that. Anyway for now Deep Freeze don’t look to be OP, or that just people not using it enough to develop a really powerful combination. Until people start to use to with deadly result and other people start to complaint about it, the skill seem ok for now.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Basilisk is breakable which will not guarantee that you will burst them down. If you believe that the natural instinct of someone being stunned is to dodge, you’re forgetting that the first response to stun is stun breaker.

Ya but I was talking about Deep Freeze, which is unbreakable. Anyway, that make any sense since Deep Freeze is 5sec long. It was just a poor exemple from me.

Thaddeus.4891:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Even then, it doesn’t justify the long duration, which is the OP’s question. If your assertion is accurate, then a 2 seconds duration will suffice, but not 5.

Maybe. I don’t know the real reason behind that.

That’s the point of this topic, that if you know why, please explain it to the OP.

Your first response seems to imply that you do know why, but now you’re saying that you don’t.

I’m confused.

Anyway for now Deep Freeze don’t look to be OP, or that just people not using it enough to develop a really powerful combination. Until people start to use to with deadly result and other people start to complaint about it, the skill seem ok for now.

Just like any other aspect of the game, it takes a lot of practice and trial and error to grasp the usefulness of a skill or combination of skills.

If you don’t have a first or second hand experience about a particular skill or skill combination, how then can you speak about it?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Basilisk is breakable which will not guarantee that you will burst them down. If you believe that the natural instinct of someone being stunned is to dodge, you’re forgetting that the first response to stun is stun breaker.

Ya but I was talking about Deep Freeze, which is unbreakable. Anyway, that make any sense since Deep Freeze is 5sec long. It was just a poor exemple from me.

I know you were talking about Deep Freeze and I’m simply applying your train of thoughts with Basilisk — that if you think that dodge is the reflexive response to stun, I’m simply pointing out that dodge is actually a secondary response if the first response — stun breaker — failed.

Swim.6830:

The reason I started this thread was because I was baffled at an obvious difference for 2 similar skills of 2 classes, where one is an elite and the other a spawned weapon. It’s because of crap like this this game will never be balanced.

I think that it’s probably more accurate to state that lots of players will never really appreciate the nuances of balance. Here’s a few things about BV that don’t seem to have been mentioned during this nonsense tangent about burst damage… it can be:

1. pre-casted and held for up to 30s.
2. traited for an extra hit.
3. traited to have a reduced cooldown.
4. traited to give Might on use.
5. traited to leech life on hit.
6. traited (ARE YOU NOTICING A PATTERN, GENTLEMEN?) to share out to party members.
7. used to activate “on-elite” rune effects.
8. randomly reset by Improvisation.

Never mind the profession balance differences, and the casting time and such that have already been mentioned.