Guild Wars 2

The new traits have been released and I am very happy with most of the thief’s new traits. Only one trait seems a bit out of place, and the winner is:

Assassin’s Equilibrium (Acrobatics): 1s stability on reveal.
The only “disappointing” new trait for several reasons:

1) It seems misplaced: Builds with high acrobatics uses evades rather than stealth as a defensive mechanism as no other traits in this line are actually stealth related (except for fleet shadow, but that trait is pretty broken). It would be a better fit as a second grand master in the Shadow arts line.

2) It doesn’t seem very useful. It is a 1 sec stability, however to proc it you need to use at least 2 skills: a skill that grants stealth & a skill to break the stealth. That seems like an awful lot of preparation (and initiative cost) for 1 second of immunity to cc. It can thus not really be used accurately against incoming cc. Furthermore, the whole point of stealth is that the player doesn’t know where you are. When you break stealth with a backstab the player will see you (reaction speed maximum at .15 s) and first dodge (.75s) in order to avoid more high lethal crits (heartseekers), then try to stun you to pin you down and release burst. By that time, with the fastest reaction speed, there will be 0.1 s of stability remaining (boon duration allows for e.g. 0.4 sec remaining), making it unlikely to prevent any CC. In same other situation it might save you, but those are few, and spending 30 points on a trait that only helps you in 1 of 20 encounters seems a bit off.

What to do to make it better:

—>Increase the stability duration. Asking for stability during the complete revealed time would likely be encountered as too powerful, as the “Stealth-is-OP-community” will explode if thieves can theoretically either be invisible or un-cc-able (practically this will not be so easy). A slight increase to 2 sec, allowing it to go to 3 sec with boon duration would place the stability more in the time window in which players will try to CC you, and can ensure a safe getaway. Even then, people playing a stealth build (d/d, p/d or d/p) will likely not be inclined to go this far into acrobatics since it will go at cost of dps.

That is why I propose it to be replaced by a different trait more in line with the acrobatics trait line: several suggestions:

1) Remove a condition every time you dodge (cooldown 5s) giving thief more access to on demand condition removal, which is a bit lacking if not running a stealth build.

2) Remove a condition for every evaded attack (cooldown: 10s). This will allow the thief to use dodges as well as some weapon skills (with evasion) to cleanse themselves of conditions when actively engaging in a fight. This trait will allow thieves to be stronger against the condition meta (e.g. engineer doing many conditions with many hits, grenades). It seems like a very strong trait but the cooldown can be played with in order to balance it.

3)Adding stability (1s) after a dodge roll. This allows for a more accurate application of stability and allowing you to survive more than one CC (since you can dodge the first and are immune to the second).

4)When you dodgeroll, you roll twice as far (same evasion time frame, just faster speed during the roll). This would give a lot of increased mobility (land speed) to the thief class and the acrobatics line.

Let me know what you think about these idea’s!

Quick and easy solution.

1. Get rid of Last Refuge. It’s broken, it hurts more than it helps, and we’ve been wanting it changed or removed since release.

2. Make Assassin’s Equilibrium the Shadow Arts adept minor trait. As is, this trait is much more in line with the useablility I’d expect of a 5 point (1 new point) trait than a 30 point (6 new point) one. That, and it would move a stealth-based trait to SA where it belongs.

3. Make a completely new GM acrobatics trait from scratch.

This is not a strong Grandmaster trait, but I think people around here are going a little overboard with their criticism of it.

The natural constituency of Assassins’s Equilibrium is going to be the S/D Thief who has 10 in Shadow Arts, 30 Acrobatics, and 30 <whatever> (probably Trickery). There are at least three really strong SA Adept traits that work in that slot, and this new GM trait turns CnD into a source of 1.3 seconds of Stability on a move that you’re already using to damage an enemy while either blinding them or removing conditions from yourself.

Interceptor.2653:

This is not a strong Grandmaster trait, but I think people around here are going a little overboard with their criticism of it.

The natural constituency of Assassins’s Equilibrium is going to be the S/D Thief who has 10 in Shadow Arts, 30 Acrobatics, and 30 <whatever> (probably Trickery). There are at least three really strong SA Adept traits that work in that slot, and this new GM trait turns CnD into a source of 1.3 seconds of Stability on a move that you’re already using to damage an enemy while either blinding them or removing conditions from yourself.

+1 here. i agree.

Assassins Equilibrium is near impossible to use unless u see a 2 sec casting time coming AND are right next to target AND have not already channeled a different skill AND the skill being used is actually a stun/push etc. this is so high a skill cap trait that only a computers AI character could make use of it.

If you honestly had the level of precognition required to expertly time the stability granted by Assassin’s Equilibrium, why wouldn’t you just dodge the attack entirely? Not only is the trait of dubious use to begin with, it’s in a tree that enables you to not really need to use it.

10k threads about the same thing….can’t stick to one thread?

1) would be great, acrobatics needs some on-demand condi clearing. Passive defensives on thief are horribly played out (pain response for example).

2) You can probably keep the ICD to 5 seconds if the trait’s functionality was when you successfully evaded an attack instead of just plain dodging. That way actively being in a fight vs running away and dodging rewards you further.

3) Kinda strange to have but I suppose worthy of a GM trait as far as staying in a fight rewards go.

4) I can see this being a serious issue in cliff-like maps and would take a long, long time to get used to since we’re so used to how far we dodge now even with swiftness.

TBH a grandmaster stealth trait in the acrobatics trait line is mind blowingly kitten. It isn’t reliable in any matter, and Q.Q’ers will exist no matter what we get. I bet they’ll call us op for having spammable stability now…. I’d rather see the full duration of revealed (3 sec pve/wvw, 4 sec pvp) grant stability. They don’t realize acrobatic’s isn’t a stealth line. If they go acrobatics they miss out on SA traits for stealth so overall their defenses in stealth are meh. If they go 30 in acrobatics and SA well… you have met yourself a wana-be bunker T-word and will never die to them unless you’re uplevled.

the funny part is i would take (hard to catch) before (Assassins equilibrium)

assassins equilibrium. is not going to come down to skill as much as luck :S

it kinda just adds to a list of useless acrobatic traits.
cough cough pain response 4 condi remove

lol no no this is funny . (hard to catch) still gets triggered if u get hit with cc when u have stability up.

Interceptor.2653:

This is not a strong Grandmaster trait, but I think people around here are going a little overboard with their criticism of it.

The natural constituency of Assassins’s Equilibrium is going to be the S/D Thief who has 10 in Shadow Arts, 30 Acrobatics, and 30 <whatever> (probably Trickery). There are at least three really strong SA Adept traits that work in that slot, and this new GM trait turns CnD into a source of 1.3 seconds of Stability on a move that you’re already using to damage an enemy while either blinding them or removing conditions from yourself.

That 1.3 seconds of stability is sure going to help against that blinded/dazed opponent. And the CnD doesn’t give you stability, using an attack and becoming revealed does – good luck timing that against incoming CC.

But of course you’re here to argue the other side, it’s what you do – at first I was surprised at how consistently and often your understanding of the game was incorrect, but at this point I’m onto your schtick.

People are not going overboard with their criticism – it’s a nigh worthless GM trait, and it for some reason works on revealed while sitting in the “non-stealth survival” tree.

Oh hey, it’s you again. Hi there!

evilapprentice.6379:

That 1.3 seconds of stability is sure going to help against that blinded/dazed opponent.

I think I see what the problem is, here. I didn’t go into details, and thus you weren’t able to connect the dots on your own. Here’s a few bullets for you as a starting point (and in honor of you, I made two of them passive-aggressive… see if you can figure out which ones):

1. AE as a Stability-extender (stacks up to three sources, and we have our own access via Lyssa and/or Dagger Storm, which naturally does not include boons from others).
2. Blind and Daze cannot be removed, blocked, or reduced in duration.
3. All fights take place as one-one-one duels.

And the CnD doesn’t give you stability, using an attack and becoming revealed does – good luck timing that against incoming CC.

Here’s what I actually said: “…turns CnD into a source of 1.3 seconds of Stability”. Notice how changing someone’s words, also changes the meaning? CnD is undeniably a source of Stability in this instance; it is not giving it to you, and nobody ever said that it did.

But of course you’re here to argue the other side, it’s what you do – at first I was surprised at how consistently and often your understanding of the game was incorrect, but at this point I’m onto your schtick.

Sure, if people are gushing over something or going too far in the other direction, I’ll speak up if I have something to say about it. As a counterpoint, I am frequently unsurprised at how often your opinion on a particular subject encompasses only a very myopic PvP viewpoint, as if it represented even a plurality (never mind a majority) of what people do in this game.

People are not going overboard with their criticism – it’s a nigh worthless GM trait

“People are not going overboard”, followed by you giving a perfect example of someone going overboard. AE is not a strong GM trait, but calling it “nigh worthless” says more about your valuation methods than it does about the trait.

It’s a lot like Hard to Catch, in that it does have positive uses, but unlike HtC in that it has no downside if you’re already that far down the tree.

Remember: x/x/10/25-30/x is a spec that exists in real life. Acrobatics lacks condition removal, but 10 SA with CnD is pretty strong for that job. If you’re S/D with Lyssa runes and can’t really leverage Quick Pockets in your spec (maybe because of a Shortbow secondary set), you’d think about taking this trait over AR or stopping at Fluid Strikes.

and it for some reason works on revealed while sitting in the “non-stealth survival” tree.

This is definitely kind of curious, and I’d like an explanation for it, but ANet’s motivations don’t really have anything to do with usefulness.

idk quick pockets can be pretty uninteresting not 100% useless can b good for a troll build something with 2 D/P weapon sets lol
there is not enough motivation to go for the gm’s in acrobatics.

“Remember: x/x/10/25-30/x is a spec that exists in real life. Acrobatics lacks condition removal, but 10 SA with CnD is pretty strong for that job. If you’re S/D with Lyssa runes and can’t really leverage Quick Pockets in your spec (maybe because of a Shortbow secondary set), you’d think about taking this trait over AR or stopping at Fluid Strikes.”

talk about getting pigeon holed

and if lyssa is the same after patch ???? hopefully

Interceptor.2653:

1. AE as a Stability-extender (stacks up to three sources, and we have our own access via Lyssa and/or Dagger Storm, which naturally does not include boons from others).

1.3 seconds for 30 points in a tree is pathetic. In addition, if you’re using Dagger storm purely for the stability, you’re doing it wrong. I don’t care how many niche scenario’s you can conjure up, it’s beyond silly to blow a 90s CD for 8s (base) stability, especially considering the fact that it also costs you your elite slot.

1. Blind and Daze cannot be removed, blocked, or reduced in duration.

Blocked = No revealed = No stability, but I’m the one having trouble connecting the dots, so what do I know? You’ve got that mighty 1.3 second window, so reduced duration doesn’t really play, and even with a removal, you better hope they’re using a low casting time CC if you want that stability to actually come in handy.

1. All fights take place as one-one-one duels.

As a thief, you don’t generally want to be mixing it up in big ol group fights, but it does occasionally happen. Does it happen enough to justify a 30 point trait? Is 1.3 seconds long enough to really matter? Spoiler Alert: No.

Here’s what I actually said: “…turns CnD into a source of 1.3 seconds of Stability”. Notice how changing someone’s words, also changes the meaning? CnD is undeniably a source of Stability in this instance; it is not giving it to you, and nobody ever said that it did.

If you really want to argue semantics, becoming revealed is the “Source of stability”. Stealth is the state which allows you access to an ability that will lead to the revealed status, and CnD is the access to stealth – your citing an ability 2 steps removed from the Stability buff as its source was a poor choice in phrasing.

“People are not going overboard”, followed by you giving a perfect example of someone going overboard. AE is not a strong GM trait, but calling it “nigh worthless” says more about your valuation methods than it does about the trait.

Which is your opinion, which as I’ve noted, is always particularly contentious. 10 minutes spent with your profile will see that your SOP is to argue against how the majority feels, regardless whether or not you have a good point to make. Though you’re not always wrong, you are wrong a vast majority of the time.

It’s a lot like Hard to Catch, in that it does have positive uses, but unlike HtC in that it has no downside if you’re already that far down the tree.

We’ve discussed this as well – HtC is garbage, regardless how you feel. The fact that it can occasionally be helpful does nothing to fix the fact that another player changing your positioning at a time of their choosing would be defined as a crowd control effect in their favor in any other scenario. The fact that it doesn’t even prevent the CC effect, And that the teleport is fired even when you have stability is just additional marks against it. It is an innately negative effect that occasionally works out for you, which is not desirable design in a trait you have to waste a slot for. But you knew that, because I’ve told you that in the past.

Remember: x/x/10/25-30/x is a spec that exists in real life. Acrobatics lacks condition removal, but 10 SA with CnD is pretty strong for that job. If you’re S/D with Lyssa runes and can’t really leverage Quick Pockets in your spec (maybe because of a Shortbow secondary set), you’d think about taking this trait over AR or stopping at Fluid Strikes.

That 1.3 seconds of stability has very little value for the S/D spec you’ve listed above, when you consider it cost a GM slot to get it. Go ahead and really think about it, then come and tell me what that 1.3 seconds of stability is going to facilitate in normal play. The answer of course is not much, especially so when you consider that we’re talking about a GM trait.

This is definitely kind of curious, and I’d like an explanation for it

Finally, something we can agree on

but ANet’s motivations don’t really have anything to do with usefulness.

Which as we’ve discussed, is almost nothing – it has almost no usefulness.

Edit: And then there’s Stof’s point below. This is not a trait you can really time, or use skillfully with any reliability. It’s there to cover 1 desperate heartseeker after a backstab – note i said 1 heartseeker, because that’s all 1.3 seconds of stability will cover.

I think that trait is bad because it continues the GW2 long tradition of promoting mindless spam.

See, ANet tries to pass that as a skilled trait where one times Revealed correctly to avoid some CC. The problem here is that this is a very very highly unlikely situation. Not that it cannot be done really. It’s just that, which thief will ever find himself in that situation :
- in stealth
- with some big CC attack incoming
- ready to break stealth reliable before the CC attack lands

“In stealth” isn’t exactly rocket science. It’ll happen. But if the thief is in stealth, why is there in the first place some big and dangerous enough CC attack incoming his way? Dangerous enough that you’d rather break your stealth early than get hit.

And if it somehow happens, what are the odds you’ll be in a situation where you actually CAN get revealed in time to get the stability? Remember that ranged attacks usually have travel time too.

No, the reality is, this is another “mindless spam” tool, like dodge tends to be. It’s actually hard to dodge only when it matters in the game currently, so you should rather design a build to have AS MUCH dodge as possible, and throw them randomly when you are full. It’s mindless and will allow you to dodge more stuff than if you tried to do it on reaction only. This trait is the same. It might work, but only because you passively use it and it’ll luckily block a CC or two in the course of a fight somehow.

“But if the thief is in stealth, why is there in the first place some big and dangerous enough CC attack incoming his way? Dangerous enough that you’d rather break your stealth early than get hit.”

u wouldn’t …. u would dodge :S
specially in the acrobatic tree where u need to make the most of your stealth time

i was really hopeing for something useful in the acrobatic tree … sigh ‘_’
the one trait line that really could use a new useful trait

evilapprentice.6379:

1.3 seconds for 30 points in a tree is pathetic.

It’s all about opportunity cost. Acrobatics isn’t a windswept wasteland of a trait line, where all the punch is at the end: it offers strong benefits at every stop on the train. Feline Grace speaks for itself, Pain Response is an extremely useful trait (which only gets better with more investment into the line), and Fluid Strikes is as good as First Strikes and only a bit worse than Exposed Weakness. AE is only 5 points for someone already at Fluid Strikes, and you’re also getting health and boon duration out of it.

It’s all doom and gloom when you frame AE as costing 30 points, but in reality it comes down to something considerably less significant, like “do I have Lotus Poison in my build”?

In addition, if you’re using Dagger storm purely for the stability, you’re doing it wrong. I don’t care how many niche scenario’s you can conjure up, it’s beyond silly to blow a 90s CD for 8s (base) stability, especially considering the fact that it also costs you your elite slot.

Nobody uses Dagger Storm solely for the Stability all of the time, but it’s a useful option for anyone who has high Acrobatics and Lyssa runes, since you can evade-cancel the channel. Basilisk Venom is strictly superior for recycle time and CC, but DS reflects projectiles and gives you its Whirl finisher in addition to the daggers thrown, so it’s no surprise to see it available on someone’s bar. Never mind that 90 seconds is still pretty short: just what do you think that a typical Elite cooldown is? Eles, Rangers, and Engies just read the subtext of your post and did a spit-take.

So, you don’t care for the scenarios, but reality isn’t subject to your approval. Since you cleverly hand-waved DS’s Stability as 8s “base”, let’s call it what it really is: 10.4 seconds for a full Acrobatics Thief. This is a fairly absurd amount of time to be effectively immune to control effects, and AE is going to let you squeeze an extra one or three seconds out of it, with something you were using anyway. It’s not something you will use every time, but it’s always in your toolkit when DS is slotted.

Its gets really silly for a Lyssa Thief, since you get an additional 6.5 seconds of Stability after the channel is over/cancelled. Hey, let’s ignore CC for nearly 17 seconds. Also, Aegis/Prot/Regen/Vigor etc, because why not. It’s a fun way to make Warriors sweat. AE works here too, although you have to be careful not to go too crazy on the front-end because of the stack limit on Stability.

Naturally, a straight-up Basilisk Venom with 6.5s Stability is also fine as a base. The timing would be too tight to get more than one AE off during this duration, but c’est la vie, this is the trade-off for having your Elite available more often.

Blocked = No revealed = No stability, but I’m the one having trouble connecting the dots, so what do I know?

Because the only option after a stuffed Tac is to use it again, right? I can drop Stealth with either of Mug or Infiltrator’s, right in the middle of an auto-animation.

You’ve got that mighty 1.3 second window, so reduced duration doesn’t really play, and even with a removal, you better hope they’re using a low casting time CC if you want that stability to actually come in handy.

Sure, if you consider everything in a void, independent of everything that came before or after it. Condition duration reduction comes into play when you are stacking Stability, and removal always a factor (very unlikely that you can account for all of the ways conditions can be removed, especially in a real melee).

But when it comes to stunbreakers, you bring up a good point. Nobody is ever going to expect a control effect from a Thief that just stealthed right in front of them. The very concept is absurd

As a thief, you don’t generally want to be mixing it up in big ol group fights, but it does occasionally happen. Does it happen enough to justify a 30 point trait? Is 1.3 seconds long enough to really matter? Spoiler Alert: No.

Speak for yourself. Thieves do quite well in group fights, particularly ones with Swords. It’s rational for the wombo-combo glass backstabbers to eschew taking part in a rough-and-tumble. But as you know, evasion is the best defense, and Acro-spec Thieves with weapon-evades are like ninjas.

I included the other bullet points just for completeness (a word I use lightly, because surely I have not detailed all possible advantages): every sliver, no matter how tiny, undermines your hyperbolic assertions. But the best case for random Stability is just the chaos of combat. Even the best of us can get blindsided by a Hammer from an angle we didn’t see, and considering how deadly that control effects are to us, this is a real consideration. As I mentioned earlier: AE is not a 30-point investment, it’s more like an extra 5-10 on top of a sunk cost, that still gives you things you’re using anyway.

ArenaNet’s stated intention for this trait is obviously ridiculous, we can both agree there (note that I never defended this specific thing), but the actual use of a trait is not limited to those stated intentions.

If you really want to argue semantics

I don’t want to argue semantics. I’m just saying that if you change the words that I use, you’re changing the meaning. This isn’t a problem in polite conversation, where reasonable people can see what the intended meaning was, but you are needlessly combative, so nitpicking suddenly becomes an issue.

You can help, by not putting words in my mouth. Or you can NOT do that, and I’ll just correct you constantly. Either way is fine with me. I have plenty of endurance, and perma-Vigor access.

Which is your opinion

This is a stretch, even with the most favorable interpretation of “opinion”. “[Near] worthless” is not supported by the facts, here.

We’ve discussed this as well – HtC is garbage, regardless how you feel. The fact that it can occasionally be helpful does nothing to fix the fact that another player changing your positioning at a time of their choosing would be defined as a crowd control effect in their favor in any other scenario.

Bolded the part where you just conceded the argument. I brought up HtC for this one specific reason, not to re-litigate the entire throw-down. AE doesn’t really have many downsides as such, except for vanilla opportunity cost.

That 1.3 seconds of stability has very little value for the S/D spec you’ve listed above, when you consider it cost a GM slot to get it.

This is basically nonsense, for reasons already spelled out in this post. Granted, this is a niche spec, but trait flexibility is intended for people to carve out niches in the first place.

Finally, something we can agree on

There is probably a lot of this, but since you seem to be keen on making assumptions about what I do or do not think without any evidence, maybe that’s clouding your perception.

Edit: And then there’s Stof’s point below. This is not a trait you can really time, or use skillfully with any reliability. It’s there to cover 1 desperate heartseeker after a backstab – note i said 1 heartseeker, because that’s all 1.3 seconds of stability will cover.

It seems like this note was intended for someone other than me. I’ll quote it in this post to raise visibility for it.

look at this rant. it would take a day to respond back to all of this.

y r u talking about lyssa when this is about the new gm trait for acrobatics and how this is useless in this trait line .

and i don’t know a thief that would waist dagger storm with a dodge just to stack stability with lyssa runes.

if a thief doges during dagger storm they r ending it to run for there life not by chance stack stability.

lol take the stability off lyssa no one cares . they only want it for condi clear and precision for some builds

and plz don’t freak out and say i am putting words in your mouth . but i am not going to hit every point of that book u just wrote

^ It seems relevant to bring up a spec that would actually consider taking Assassin’s Equilibrium, if we’re talking about whether the trait is useful or not. It is literally the second thing I thought of when I first heard the news.

Lyssa is a pretty popular choice for Acro-based Thieves using swords, because of the condition removal problems in that line.

lyssa is like the only choice for sword thieves in acro. :S
pain response if far from a reliable condi remove

condi remove in acrobatics should not be as good as shadow arts
but needs to be reliable.

Assassin’s Equilibrium if it was in a dif trait line . u would not even need to worry about stability stacking through Assassin’s Equilibrium.

and it would have a chance to be useful in a more fitting line.

if it stays in acro they will be forcing us to try to stack it.
just to make it useful.
because the smart thing would be to just dodge the cc in stealth .
not stab them gain stability and take the hit damage at the same time :S

Ideally this is used for getting stomps… but with mug being the only way to trigger it mid animation it might be a case of wishful thinking.

You don’t have the luxury of waiting when you go for a stomp.. bottom line this trait is just not viable

y come out of stealth gain stability to get a stomp if u can do it in stealth and draw less attention to your self :S

or use shadow step ?

+1 not viable

edit. pain response is garbage . healing or condi remove
and when u say all u need to do to activate it is get hit at 75% hp . that does not help
and because it only gives one boon it is VERRY easy to strip off your target !
if pain response could be coupled with another condi remove trait in the same acrobatic tree it could be useful . not “fleet foot”

caveman.5840:

lyssa is like the only choice for sword thieves in acro. :S
pain response if far from a reliable condi remove

Pain Response’s condition removal is usually a nice bonus when it happens; the lack of reliability isn’t an issue, because nobody is relying on it for condition removal. Lyssa’s condition removal is just for bombs: your everyday condi removal with this spec is Shadow’s Embrace, Withdraw + Poultry, Infiltrator’s Return, and utilities like Shadowstep or Signet of Agility.

The real nice thing about Pain Response is the Regeneration buff. It lasts at least 12 seconds, or 13s if you are full Acrobatics. The full duration is worth nearly 1700 health, and all you have to do to activate it is to get struck while <75% health.

Assassin’s Equilibrium if it was in a dif trait line . u would not even need to worry about stability stacking through Assassin’s Equilibrium.

Sure, let’s put it in Critical Strikes and make it proc off a crit. That option isn’t on the table, though. We’re getting it at 30 Acro.

heres reality.

many builds that use stealth get AOE blind on stealth
many builds that use stealth get away from potential dmg in stealth

^^^^^^^^^ these mean 1sec of stability will almost never be used ^^^^^^^^^

s/d is most likely to use this trait.

S/D stealth attacks (skill 1) gives opponent blind or daze. either way when they wear off so will have stability. hence….useless.

anything im missing here? other than the fact you would have to luckily be in stealth….the opponent would have to target you with a SLOW cast AOE stun/push/pull etc AND you would have to amazingly use mug to get out of stealth in order for the stability to cancel the cc.

if you only count SLOW cast CCs….theres prolly only a couple. literally prolly like 2 or 3 max. the rest are fast or target only….meaning if you are in stealth they cant cast them.

THIS TRAIT is 99% USELESS ! the only time u can use it is when u see 1 of like 3 aoe slow cast targetless stuns incoming and have a quick attack like mug to get you out of stealth if you are in range and if you are not blinded and if opponent is not invul and if opponent is not under aegis. useless.

Travlane.5948:

anything im missing here?

A bunch of things, but here’s two important ones:

1) We have other sources of Stability, and they stack.
2) Fights don’t take place in the Danger Room. Real combat is kinda chaotic.

I wonder if they thought about how much weaker this is mechanically than cloaked in shadow which can be used reactively also and would prevent both the CC and the damage from the attack in a shorter timeframe.

I’m happy that they are introducing “on reveal” traits to encourage aggressive gameplay, but how about something like “transfer a condition to your target on reveal” which would improve non-SA sustain and help curb the condi meta since crit damage is being brought down. It would also open up new S/D, P/D, and D/X builds.

This trait only seems useful for escaping guardian wards right now.

Interceptor.2653:

Travlane.5948:

anything im missing here?

A bunch of things, but here’s two important ones:

1) We have other sources of Stability, and they stack.

I’m super confused as to why you keep saying this. It’s such a weak point, and you keep leading with it, it makes it hard to take any of your arguments seriously. Even if it were true, this argument would be bad.

Our sources of stability are a stolen ability, stealing it with Bountiful/LS, Lyssa’s, and Daggerstorm. We can throw daggerstorm right out – no one is running a serious PvP build that dodges out of a 90s elite for 8s of stability, and it clashes with Lyssa’s. The stolen ability is highly situational, seeing as you need to steal from a specific class to get it, and saving it for an opportune time denies you access to steal (which a lot of builds rely on as a gap closer and for its traited effects)

Let’s pretend we take your comment at face value, and we do have good access to stability via other sources. If that’s the case, what good is an additional One second with such an odd use case? To even have the opportunity to extend an existing stability, you have to be in stealth first – stability isn’t useless in stealth, but it certainly reduces its value (Since you know…you’re in stealth) – you’re reducing the value of stability for 1-3 seconds (Since most players aren’t just going to stand around and wait to be hit once you stealth) just to extend it by 1 second…not a great tradeoff.

If you plan on granting yourself stability after you’ve come out of stealth, congratulations, you wasted most of the stability granted by this trait casting the ability to grant you more stability. If you’re having trouble seeing how silly that is, there’s not much else I can do to help.

2) Fights don’t take place in the Danger Room. Real combat is kinda chaotic.

You seem to think thief plays like a Warrior – getting into the thick of things, absorbing hits and damage, etc etc etc… Thief relies on avoidance rather than mitigation to survive. The only thief specs that are going to be under constant fire from multiple targets are the kinds that evade alot like S/P or S/D. They gain very little from stability because their goal is to not be hit at all.

In short, 1.3 seconds of stability triggered by being revealed is an awful, nigh useless mechanic that is poorly designed. The length of stability being granted is pitiful, and the trigger for said trait is too awkward to be used with skill, making it more passive trash. Even if we ignore nearly every other issue with its design, It can’t be used on it’s own tactically due to how it’s triggered. Attempting to extend an existing stability using it is also generally a wash, since being in stealth helps reduce the need for stability in the first place and consumes more than 1.3 seconds of your time, as most targets will not sit still and wait to be hit when you stealth.

The kinds of specs that would see the most use out of mindlessly generated stability(S/D and S/P, due to their ability to mix it up in group fights) have even less incentive to take it because their survival is based on evasion rather than mitigation, so they’re already trying to avoid most hits, and on top of that neither of those specs have much use for stealth in the first place.

All it’s going to be used for (at least in the current meta) is for guaranteeing you wont be interrupted using HS once after a Backstab – that’s a pretty kittenty “best case sceanrio” for a grand master trait, especially considering the stiff competition in other trees.

I’d rather stop at fluid strikes and take Serpents touch, since poison is a strong debuff and it can be used intuitively, tactically, and skillfully.

evilapprentice.6379:

Interceptor.2653:

Travlane.5948:

anything im missing here?

A bunch of things, but here’s two important ones:

1) We have other sources of Stability, and they stack.

I’m super confused as to why you keep saying this. It’s such a weak point, and you keep leading with it, it makes it hard to take any of your arguments seriously. Even if it were true, this argument would be bad.

Our sources of stability are a stolen ability, stealing it with Bountiful/LS, Lyssa’s, and Daggerstorm. We can throw daggerstorm right out – no one is running a serious PvP build that dodges out of a 90s elite for 8s of stability, and it clashes with Lyssa’s. The stolen ability is highly situational, seeing as you need to steal from a specific class to get it, and saving it for an opportune time denies you access to steal (which a lot of builds rely on as a gap closer and for its traited effects)

Let’s pretend we take your comment at face value, and we do have good access to stability via other sources. If that’s the case, what good is an additional One second with such an odd use case? To even have the opportunity to extend an existing stability, you have to be in stealth first – stability isn’t useless in stealth, but it certainly reduces its value (Since you know…you’re in stealth) – you’re reducing the value of stability for 1-3 seconds (Since most players aren’t just going to stand around and wait to be hit once you stealth) just to extend it by 1 second…not a great tradeoff.

If you plan on granting yourself stability after you’ve come out of stealth, congratulations, you wasted most of the stability granted by this trait casting the ability to grant you more stability. If you’re having trouble seeing how silly that is, there’s not much else I can do to help.

2) Fights don’t take place in the Danger Room. Real combat is kinda chaotic.

You seem to think thief plays like a Warrior – getting into the thick of things, absorbing hits and damage, etc etc etc… Thief relies on avoidance rather than mitigation to survive. The only thief specs that are going to be under constant fire from multiple targets are the kinds that evade alot like S/P or S/D. They gain very little from stability because their goal is to not be hit at all.

In short, 1.3 seconds of stability triggered by being revealed is an awful, nigh useless mechanic that is poorly designed. Even if we ignore nearly every other issue with its design, It can’t be used on it’s own tactically due to how it’s triggered. Attempting to extend an existing stability using it is also generally a wash, since being in stealth helps reduce the need for stability in the first place and consumes more than 1.3 seconds of your time, as most targets will not sit still and wait to be hit when you stealth.

The kinds of specs that would see the most use out of mindlessly generated stability(S/D and S/P, due to their ability to mix it up in group fights) have even less incentive to take it because their survival is based on evasion rather than mitigation, so they’re already trying to avoid most hits, and on top of that neither of those specs have much use for stealth in the first place.

All it’s going to be used for (at least in the current meta) is for guaranteeing you wont be interrupted using HS once after a Backstab – that’s a pretty kittenty “best case sceanrio” for a grand master trait, especially considering the stiff competition in other trees.

I’d rather stop at fluid strikes and take Serpents touch, since poison is a strong debuff and it can be used intuitively, tactically, and skillfully.

this.

i think he might be trolling…. idk. just for giggles….(i know its a sure bet) but lets make a bet with him. and anet can hold me to this. lets bet 50g each to his 100g. so he gets 50g each from us (100g total) and we split his 100g (50g each of us) depending on who wins.

BET: show us withing a 10 minute CONTINUOUS time frame in random SPVP (has to be shown random) that you can use it 3 times and have it actually counter a CC.

you might get ONE…out of pure luck. but according to you… you should get ATLEAST 2 per match.

if you dont take that very generous and conservative bet….. then you should just stop debating its good. everyone else things its insulting to give us a 30 point trait for 1 sec of stability on a non stealth trait line that only affects AFTER you drop stealth. really. if the guy with the girly hair on ANET team really played thief…he would never have said this is a high skill cap kind of trait. . . unless he mean AI level of high as in our reaction time could never use it outside of pure luck99.9% of the time.

Maugetarr.6823:

I wonder if they thought about how much weaker this is mechanically than cloaked in shadow which can be used reactively also and would prevent both the CC and the damage from the attack in a shorter timeframe.

I’m happy that they are introducing “on reveal” traits to encourage aggressive gameplay, but how about something like “transfer a condition to your target on reveal” which would improve non-SA sustain and help curb the condi meta since crit damage is being brought down. It would also open up new S/D, P/D, and D/X builds.

This trait only seems useful for escaping guardian wards right now.

pfft. no. why do i say no?

the line of warding and circle ward they use with hammer are actually wider than they look. so by the time you get stability for 1 sec…it expires as you are still walking across and you get knocked down. you will be knocked down on the reverse side if you make it tho.

Travlane.5948:

Maugetarr.6823:

I wonder if they thought about how much weaker this is mechanically than cloaked in shadow which can be used reactively also and would prevent both the CC and the damage from the attack in a shorter timeframe.

I’m happy that they are introducing “on reveal” traits to encourage aggressive gameplay, but how about something like “transfer a condition to your target on reveal” which would improve non-SA sustain and help curb the condi meta since crit damage is being brought down. It would also open up new S/D, P/D, and D/X builds.

This trait only seems useful for escaping guardian wards right now.

pfft. no. why do i say no?

the line of warding and circle ward they use with hammer are actually wider than they look. so by the time you get stability for 1 sec…it expires as you are still walking across and you get knocked down. you will be knocked down on the reverse side if you make it tho.

You would be able to dodge roll out, but that is literally the only thing I could stretch my imagination as to where the stability could be purposefully used. Everything else would most likely come down to luck since it would be dependent on their positioning and you being in stealth before the skill was activated as it would be ridiculously short to land a CnD and then stealth attack to gain stability after you recognize the attack and before it hits.

Maugetarr.6823:

Travlane.5948:

Maugetarr.6823:

I wonder if they thought about how much weaker this is mechanically than cloaked in shadow which can be used reactively also and would prevent both the CC and the damage from the attack in a shorter timeframe.

I’m happy that they are introducing “on reveal” traits to encourage aggressive gameplay, but how about something like “transfer a condition to your target on reveal” which would improve non-SA sustain and help curb the condi meta since crit damage is being brought down. It would also open up new S/D, P/D, and D/X builds.

This trait only seems useful for escaping guardian wards right now.

pfft. no. why do i say no?

the line of warding and circle ward they use with hammer are actually wider than they look. so by the time you get stability for 1 sec…it expires as you are still walking across and you get knocked down. you will be knocked down on the reverse side if you make it tho.

You would be able to dodge roll out, but that is literally the only thing I could stretch my imagination as to where the stability could be purposefully used. Everything else would most likely come down to luck since it would be dependent on their positioning and you being in stealth before the skill was activated as it would be ridiculously short to land a CnD and then stealth attack to gain stability after you recognize the attack and before it hits.

mmmhmmm. but thinkabout how few stuns in the game dont need a target right? and of those they have to be slow cast times bc thta would be the only way there would be enough time to react and exit stealth. this is def a supa-fail for anet. same ol’ same ol’

evilapprentice.6379:

I’m super confused as to why you keep saying this.

The reason is pretty straightforward: because it’s true.

Our sources of stability are a stolen ability, stealing it with Bountiful/LS, Lyssa’s, and Daggerstorm.

Of those, only Lyssa and Dagger Storm really matter. The others are too situational. Useful when you can leverage them, but not worth bringing up in an argument except as a tiebreaker or something.

We can throw daggerstorm right out – no one is running a serious PvP build that dodges out of a 90s elite for 8s of stability, and it clashes with Lyssa’s.

This is basically you not knowing what you are talking about. Let’s take these in turn.

1. “PvP” – not even a plurality of the people who play this game participate in PvP, never mind a majority.
2. “But elite” – There are a lot of useless Elites in this game, and/or ones with long cooldowns. An “elite” is just another button on the skill bar. They are not intrinsically superior to other utilities.
3. “But clash” – DS has excellent synergy with Lyssa. Lyssa does not activate until the channel is over, and the nature of DS will protect the proc (many people don’t know this, but you can interrupt the on-Elite potion of the Lyssa runes: especially noticeable with Basilisk Venom since it is telegraphed). DS comes out instantly. These two things were made for each other, and the 90s cooldown — which is not that long — is the only real downside, to the extent that there even IS one.

Popping DS preemptively in a large fight is something that is already defensible for fighting in medium-to-large scale combat in WvW. I guess that your myopic view of the game, based solely on PvP content, keeps you from seeing where this comes into play. When I am making a push with a group that knows we’re coming, you’d better believe that I am slotting DS if I can, to avoid getting stun-locked and wrecked out.

what good is an additional One second with such an odd use case?

So, we’re back now pretending that boon duration doesn’t work on AE? I find that pretty unlikely. Durations are stated as their bases, generally. It will probably be 1.3s (or more) in a realistic situation.

To even have the opportunity to extend an existing stability, you have to be in stealth first

This is criminally easy to do. CnD gets you there, and it’s a move you’re going to be using anyway as an S/D Thief (for condition cleanse if nothing else). You’ll also get it randomly from Last Refuge, and likely to see it from Blinding Powder as well (since it’s a great utility for S/D). And also whenever you run through a Veil on an initiation.

If you plan on granting yourself stability after you’ve come out of stealth, congratulations, you wasted most of the stability granted by this trait casting the ability to grant you more stability. If you’re having trouble seeing how silly that is, there’s not much else I can do to help.

In other words, because you have a warped view of Stability’s usefulness, that’s somehow a mental failure on my part.

Stealth is really just a means to an end on S/D. It’s your reliable condition clear, disruptive to the opponent, and a way to enable Tac Strike or Surprise Shot, but it doesn’t have the same function that it does for a deep Shadows Arts Thief that also uses it for healing, and stays stealthed for long duration.

Extra time on Stability will be nice.

You seem to think thief plays like a Warrior – getting into the thick of things, absorbing hits and damage, etc etc etc…

Uhh, no. Deep Acrobatics with weapon evades is all about dodging damage entirely, not passively mitigating it with Armor and high Health.

Thief relies on avoidance rather than mitigation to survive.

Oh hey, looks like you knew that already. So why did you just presume that wasn’t what I was talking about, then? You are a silly person.

The only thief specs that are going to be under constant fire from multiple targets are the kinds that evade alot like S/P or S/D. They gain very little from stability because their goal is to not be hit at all.

You know what really screws over a Thief that relies on evading hits via dodges and weapon skills?

1. Immobilize (for dodges).
2. Control effects like stun, knockdown, fear, etc.
3. Dazes (for weapon evades).

Oh hey look, Stability shuts down dang near everything. Except Immobilize, but that’s what Withdraw is for.

Should I maximize the uptime of Stability, in order to cover the vulnerable windows between evades, or cover up a mistake I made, or protect me from something I couldn’t react to in time? NO WAY. Because the “goal” is to not get hit. Because “elite”.

Attempting to extend an existing stability using it is also generally a wash, since being in stealth helps reduce the need for stability in the first place

Please do both of us a favor and get some experience in WvW.

I’d rather stop at fluid strikes and take Serpents touch, since poison is a strong debuff and it can be used intuitively, tactically, and skillfully.

And sometimes you will. I tend to give up AR these days for Lotus Poison. But the nice thing about the new traits, is that they are coming with a new system that encourages frequently swapping out trait sets.

Well, at least for those of us that aren’t playing a small subset of the real game, anyway.

Travlane.5948:

i think he might be trolling…. idk. just for giggles….(i know its a sure bet) but lets make a bet with him. and anet can hold me to this. lets bet 50g each to his 100g. so he gets 50g each from us (100g total) and we split his 100g (50g each of us) depending on who wins.

BET: show us withing a 10 minute CONTINUOUS time frame in random SPVP (has to be shown random) that you can use it 3 times and have it actually counter a CC.

you might get ONE…out of pure luck. but according to you… you should get ATLEAST 2 per match.

if you dont take that very generous and conservative bet….. then you should just stop debating its good. everyone else things its insulting to give us a 30 point trait for 1 sec of stability on a non stealth trait line that only affects AFTER you drop stealth. really. if the guy with the girly hair on ANET team really played thief…he would never have said this is a high skill cap kind of trait. . . unless he mean AI level of high as in our reaction time could never use it outside of pure luck99.9% of the time.

I figured you would have been a little more shy about this after that Grenth/Guardian embarrassment, but I guess that there’s no helping it.

Travlane, Interceptor, chill the kitten out. Your posts take 1/2 of the thread (5 Trav and 11 Inter(gj man, really stupid impressive feat))

Now to go back to my opinion on the trait – it’s adept rank at most. Heck, even if it was adept, I doubt more than 1% would take it over the other options.

1 second stability when revealed is not much of a game changer. Now if it was “gain 3s stability every time you dodge” or “gain 3s stability every 10s when not in stealth”, it would be game changing. Do you waste a dodge just to gain stability, or keep it for when you really need it? Do you go into stealth and try to avoid enemies that way, or do you stay out and get that stability but leave your location announced to the enemies?

Pavel.8531:

Travlane, Interceptor, chill the kitten out. Your posts take 1/2 of the thread (5 Trav and 11 Inter(gj man, really stupid impressive feat))

Now to go back to my opinion on the trait – it’s adept rank at most. Heck, even if it was adept, I doubt more than 1% would take it over the other options.

Interceptor is known for his crusades to change the minds of those on the forums. Believe me, I KNOW, and it isn’t worth the trouble.

Any who, 15 days remain for them to redo this GM trait or forever add it to the list of completely useless traits. It isn’t workable, even with boon duration. 100% boon duration would only make it 2 seconds, which is still shotty and not worth a 30 point investment.

If their goal was to open up build diversity they really havn’t accomplished that with AE, or the CS gm trait. Notice in the pvp preview they said it themselves, “if you crit for 10,000 you heal for 500”….. So 10k is repeatable? and it heals almost as little as just having regen on? Pretty sure regen alone would out heal this trait and given the source (pain response, shadow protector) would lead to further defenses. They say they don’t want traits to compete but they forget that you can only pick 1 GM trait from a tree at a time, and the severe loss in dps greatly outweighs the futile heal you get from Critical infusion or w/e they called it.

If they want it to be a viable source of non-stealth healing (not that we don’t have it, but more is necessary to avoid abuse from Q.Q mechanics), it should be 12, or 15% for single target skills, and 8, or even 10% from aoe skills so AoE doesn’t greatly overheal you but atleast make it viable. If someone wants to take a cut in dps, it should lead to some sustain/recovery that’s appropriate. Not saying the heal should = the dps loss, but the benefit of taking a heal on crit vs 20% more dps (or 100% crit for those few who use it) should be present.

NinjaEd.3946:

Interceptor is known for his crusades to change the minds of those on the forums. Believe me, I KNOW, and it isn’t worth the trouble.

In other words, known for being ahead of the curve.

Lyssa Runes on us have been stupid OP forever, and just now they are getting around to addressing them. Unfortunately they are getting nerfed with respect to this particular usage, since the #6 skill is losing all-boons and just becoming a condition convert now. No more Stability. It was a fun 6+ months, though.

They say they don’t want traits to compete but they forget that you can only pick 1 GM trait from a tree at a time, and the severe loss in dps greatly outweighs the futile heal you get from Critical infusion or w/e they called it.

This is small-time thinking. Heal on crit just carved out a bigger niche for Thieves in large group combat. Executioner hardly matters in this situation — where you have little control of the health level who you are hitting — but in a group, you have a target-rich environment to AOE for healing.

Thieves were already better than people generally expect in group combat, but now there’s a new sustain option. People are going to combine this with crit food, sigils, Sundering Strikes, and possibly SoM.

Even if you don’t like it.

i wont really get this new trait even if they put it in adept trait. cuz acrobatics build don’t really rely on stealth and how long is 1sec stability? blink of an eye? and i don’t really like acrobatics major traits and i only getting this trait for my s/d cuz of the passive minor traits Expeditious dodger, Feline Grace and Fluid strikes and quick recovery is now a joke 1 initiative gain / 10sec? Pain response is just fine but 30secs Cooldown just to remove 1 condition

Anything that gives me condition removal in trickery? yes please.
I agree tho… we get 1 second of stability AFTER backstabbing someone?
That’s not worth it at all… not for a GM trait at least