Guild Wars 2

Pre-patch: attacking a thief reduces the amount of damage they can deal by forcing them to go defensive.
Post-patch: thieves can attack with impunity, doing obscene amounts of damage despite spending all of their initiative on gap-closers or defensive abilities. They no longer have to back off to recover initiative—and combat momentum—when pressured.

On top of this enormous buff to combat momentum in PvP/WvW, it’s childishly easy for a berseker-geared thief to kill someone before they can blink. Using a combination of Panic Strike (second-tier Deadly Arts trait) and Basilisk Venom, many engagements I have seen go like this: Basilisk Venom -> Steal -> Win. No other button presses are used, because autoattack is now so powerful that the use of backstab has become a style choice instead of a skill-rewarding ability required to make a clean kill.

Looking out from the walls of Stonemist Castle right now, all I see is thieves. Something is wrong here.

Everyone is going to play thieves for a while. Also backstabbing is still very in, it’s the face stab that’s rendered obsolete. I dunno anyone stupid enough to lose an up to 11k damage strike in favor of 6-7k interruptible chain.

Is thief easy mode? No, just everyone thinks it is, a full zerk thief will literally melt to any class that can get a decent stare at it, even with Bali-venom.

I’m running 3750 armor and 21k health, mussels gnashblade for the 10% damage reduction and several sources of Protection and now instead of being able to beat thieves 1v1 and at least escape 2v1, I am down within seconds. It is exactly as described above; Basi, Steal, BS, AA a couple of times.

Utterly absurd damage increase.

Aidal, you’re missing the point. You can’t get a decent stare at a thief if you are already dead. We agree that 11k backstabs are better than auto chains, but giving an enemy -5000 hp instead of 0 achieves the same result: they go down.

Right now as someone in the wvw forums said, the meta is Pirate shipping, lighter classes, ranged attacks, Aoe spam, literally what the thief is excellent at countering.

I was getting semi creamed by thief ambushes on every class but my Dh/burn guard. Mainly because I use test of faith defensively, I’m traited to drop a second one on stun (as well as stun break) both of these traps inflict daze, so it disrupts them, once that’s done I just go defensive, my traps have similar cd to the basi-venom, so if it’s a fight reset they want they’ll get it.

Yeah, thief is strong right now, yes the buff contributed, but also the current meta has as well.

Also any 2v1 scenario is going to be death if it’s against half skilled thieves.

Sounds like people don’t run Stun breaks….also if you are 2v1 against a burst class you should melt, thieves if you sneeze at them they die pretty fast. Yeah it can be annoying but you are being overly dramatic.

Aidal.4901:

…Also any 2v1 scenario is going to be death if it’s against half skilled thieves.

It wasn’t before.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Aidal.4901:

…Also any 2v1 scenario is going to be death if it’s against half skilled thieves.

It wasn’t before.

Because horrendous Bunker meta

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Aidal.4901:

…Also any 2v1 scenario is going to be death if it’s against half skilled thieves.

It wasn’t before.

Because horrendous Bunker meta

INB4 Even more horrendous Bunker meta to counter the thieves. Oh, but 3750 armor with 43% damage reduction is not enough…

If you are facing two burst class you should not win unless you outs kill both by a lot. Just common sense, and the horrendous Bunker meta allowed player to 1v3 which was even worse so yeah they fixed the horrendous Bunker meta that was everywhere.

But yes I agree and most Thieves do the AA buff to dagger and staff was ridiculous and should not have been implemented but we won’t say no to a buff

BlaqueFyre.5678:

But yes I agree and most Thieves do the AA buff to dagger and staff was ridiculous and should not have been implemented but we won’t say no to a buff

Fair enough.

If it were me getting the buff though, I’d still complain about it because I value balance.

I run SD so If the put Dagger and staff back to where they were /should be I would be fine, the Sword AA did need the love so if they need that he’ll will be raised

Yeah I’ve noticed that BV’s unblockability is too strong even when using P/P. Unblockable Unload is just not fair.

You’re an idiot Orion, just mad because a once useless class forced to +1 can finally stand toe to toe with you. Seriously this is some outrageous over exaggeration on thief dps.

Keep QQing, but Thief has been bottom tier for over 6 months. We finally are viable again, and after years of complaining about ridiculous aftercasts they actually get fixed. I’m happy Thief can actually do what it was meant to do, ie high damage burst. And it seems like a pretty terrible build choice if you have zero stunbreaks, but maybe that’s just me.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Aidal.4901:

…Also any 2v1 scenario is going to be death if it’s against half skilled thieves.

It wasn’t before.

My initial spike of damage is unchanged, and I’m moderate at best.

Light armor: 11-14k opener.
Medium armor: 11-13k opener.
Heavy armor: 10-11k opener.

If two thieves are attacking in rough tandem and applying pressure as they should, only necro/warrior would survive the initial burst. I dunno what thieves you were fighting against, but if they got greedy to stick around to be counter burst they probably weren’t very good.

Aidal.4901:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Aidal.4901:

…Also any 2v1 scenario is going to be death if it’s against half skilled thieves.

It wasn’t before.

My initial spike of damage is unchanged, and I’m moderate at best.

Light armor: 11-14k opener.
Medium armor: 11-13k opener.
Heavy armor: 10-11k opener.

If two thieves are attacking in rough tandem and applying pressure as they should, only necro/warrior would survive the initial burst. I dunno what thieves you were fighting against, but if they got greedy to stick around to be counter burst they probably weren’t very good.

Well assuming his info is right and you are doing 10-11k damage on heavy armored without any other damage reduction you would be hitting 4~4.2k on him.

Varezenem.2813:

Well assuming his info is right and you are doing 10-11k damage on heavy armored without any other damage reduction you would be hitting 4~4.2k on him.

Crit wise, yes, my AA chain did that. But those numbers aren’t from a single attack.

Low balling my opener, it’s 200 damage for BP, which doesnt always connect

1.2k steal damage, 870ish HS. (Exposed weakness for 10% more damage)

I’ve got might/fury at this point, 80% crit for the next 10 seconds, backstabs are easy to get, it’s about 6-7k on the backstab after Exposed weakness/crit damage bonus.

At this point I would HS’d again and then rode the rest out with AA to reapply poison and enjoy the damage jumps of Exposed weakness and Executioner together, occasionally HSing with increased damage.

All of that fits within the range of about 2-2 1/2 seconds, and it is/was my traditional opener. The new AA buff removed HS from being dropped as often, leaving more initiative open to me.

With no toughness 18k health completely insulates a player from getting blown up from jump. Add in toughness, sustain, etc and getting blown up is mainly a problem for other glassy builds. It should go unsaid that a thief has to get up close and personal to even have a chance.

Orion.3812:

Looking out from the walls of Stonemist Castle right now, all I see is thieves. Something is wrong here.

Is that because you prefer mesmers to OHKO you? They can still do that better then thieves by the way.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

I’m running 3750 armor and 21k health, mussels gnashblade for the 10% damage reduction and several sources of Protection and now instead of being able to beat thieves 1v1 and at least escape 2v1, I am down within seconds. It is exactly as described above; Basi, Steal, BS, AA a couple of times.

Utterly absurd damage increase.

Oh please, if a simple 30% buff to AA, during which thief can’t dodge or defend, moved you from the best 1vs1 class (druid) to outsiders, that is not thief’ problem. That just means you are bad palyer.

Really, I main squishy no toughness thief and I have absulutely no problem against other thieves in pvp. Just don’t let them AA you – the easiest thing ever.

Sword did need the autoattack buff very badly, it’s still not optimal cause d/p is just stronger. Dagger autos got a bit overbuffed, true. That’s not the reason there are so many thieves tho: It is a really fun gamestyle that u can’t find on other classes; some people only want the sneaky archetype, some enjoy it for its mobility. Plus people are hyped because thieves are not useless in pvp anymore, time built up their desire for playing it. They used to deal 0 dmg while being very squishy.

Personally I think the AA buff is useless. Anyone complaining its OP or even good is probably just a bad player. I play all classes and was wondering why it was easier to kill thieves recently. Its because they are trying to get auto attacks in and staying out where I kick zap their massive 11K health in 2 hits…or 1 hit.

The buff to daggers damage is NOT overly much. They are still in and out fighters and can only get a few of those attacks in before they have to pull back. Low armor and health makes sure of that.1111 spam is a myth for any thief that wants to survive.

Those first early encounters that got all the QQ were just people not expecting a thief able to hit hard unless they were using their other attacks. They are already adapting to this.

Orion.3812:

Pre-patch: attacking a thief reduces the amount of damage they can deal by forcing them to go defensive.
Post-patch: thieves can attack with impunity, doing obscene amounts of damage despite spending all of their initiative on gap-closers or defensive abilities. They no longer have to back off to recover initiative—and combat momentum—when pressured.

On top of this enormous buff to combat momentum in PvP/WvW, it’s childishly easy for a berseker-geared thief to kill someone before they can blink. Using a combination of Panic Strike (second-tier Deadly Arts trait) and Basilisk Venom, many engagements I have seen go like this: Basilisk Venom -> Steal -> Win. No other button presses are used, because autoattack is now so powerful that the use of backstab has become a style choice instead of a skill-rewarding ability required to make a clean kill.

Looking out from the walls of Stonemist Castle right now, all I see is thieves. Something is wrong here.

L2P issue.

i am playing tempest instead of thief these days and its a joke to kill most of thieves unless thief is extremely skilled.

learn to play before u even complain about thief.

btw most of thieves never wanted damage buff blame anet for that though AA buff is not even OP at all.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

I’m running 3750 armor and 21k health, mussels gnashblade for the 10% damage reduction and several sources of Protection and now instead of being able to beat thieves 1v1 and at least escape 2v1, I am down within seconds. It is exactly as described above; Basi, Steal, BS, AA a couple of times.

Utterly absurd damage increase.

With 3750 armor/21k hp u shouldnt be going down within a second unless multiple thieves burst u down at the same time.

how bad are u? Lol

Aidal.4901:

Right now as someone in the wvw forums said, the meta is Pirate shipping, lighter classes, ranged attacks, Aoe spam, literally what the thief is excellent at countering.

Also any 2v1 scenario is going to be death if it’s against half skilled thieves.

First of all, dd you say thief is excellent at countering aoe spam and ranged attacks? No, that’s not how it works. Those are thief’s counters.

As for a 2v1 scenario, you do realize that’s a 2v1 problem, not a class issue? You’re not usually supposed to win 2v1’s…

Orion.3812:

Looking out from the walls of Stonemist Castle right now, all I see is thieves. Something is wrong here.

People playing thief
Something wrong

Maybe people dusted off their thieves after months in the kittenter? Go sit in melee AA some more and ponder how OP your lack of skill is.

I’m going to go ahead and bump this thread to draw attention to how exceptionally toxic our community is these days. Everything is an “L2P” issue. Hardly anyone wants to address the problem. Most would rather insult the skill of anyone who seems to think their class is unbalanced without any attempt to consider the argument.

Just because you are not good enough to play a glass thief that can one-shot people and stay alive doesn’t mean the class is balanced.

Thanks, to those of you who actually gave halfway intelligent replies regardless of which side of the argument you took.

Orion.3812:

I’m going to go ahead and bump this thread to draw attention to how exceptionally toxic our community is these days. Everything is an “L2P” issue. Hardly anyone wants to address the problem. Most would rather insult the skill of anyone who seems to think their class is unbalanced without any attempt to consider the argument.

Just because you are not good enough to play a glass thief that can one-shot people and stay alive doesn’t mean the class is balanced.

Thanks, to those of you who actually gave halfway intelligent replies regardless of which side of the argument you took.

Lol, it’s just funny how people are now crying op because of a simple autoattack damage buff that people don’t even use much because they’re too busy being squishy and trying to evade or stealth.

Just because you are not good enough to have a brain and literally poke a glass thief and stay alive doesn’t mean the class is unbalanced.

Thanks, to those of you who actually give halfway intelligent replies.

The bunker meta isn’t over, btw.

alchemyst.2165:

Orion.3812:

I’m going to go ahead and bump this thread to draw attention to how exceptionally toxic our community is these days. Everything is an “L2P” issue. Hardly anyone wants to address the problem. Most would rather insult the skill of anyone who seems to think their class is unbalanced without any attempt to consider the argument.

Just because you are not good enough to play a glass thief that can one-shot people and stay alive doesn’t mean the class is balanced.

Thanks, to those of you who actually gave halfway intelligent replies regardless of which side of the argument you took.

Lol, it’s just funny how people are now crying op because of a simple autoattack damage buff that people don’t even use much because they’re too busy being squishy and trying to evade or stealth.

Just because you are not good enough to have a brain and literally poke a glass thief and stay alive doesn’t mean the class is unbalanced.

Thanks, to those of you who actually give halfway intelligent replies.

Thank you for proving my point about toxicity so well.

Orion.3812:

I’m going to go ahead and bump this thread to draw attention to how exceptionally toxic our community is these days. Everything is an “L2P” issue. Hardly anyone wants to address the problem. Most would rather insult the skill of anyone who seems to think their class is unbalanced without any attempt to consider the argument.

Just because you are not good enough to play a glass thief that can one-shot people and stay alive doesn’t mean the class is balanced.

Thanks, to those of you who actually gave halfway intelligent replies regardless of which side of the argument you took.

okay so I main thief through the whole bunk meta so I’ll be honest I’m loving the PvP meta atm, but the main reason thief got the buff was for pve. The AA for pve was horrid. When it comes to PvP though the reason why this AA is being cried over is the removal of the bunker amulets. Also quick question what class and build do u run?

Nizio Nightblade.8109:

Orion.3812:

I’m going to go ahead and bump this thread to draw attention to how exceptionally toxic our community is these days. Everything is an “L2P” issue. Hardly anyone wants to address the problem. Most would rather insult the skill of anyone who seems to think their class is unbalanced without any attempt to consider the argument.

Just because you are not good enough to play a glass thief that can one-shot people and stay alive doesn’t mean the class is balanced.

Thanks, to those of you who actually gave halfway intelligent replies regardless of which side of the argument you took.

okay so I main thief through the whole bunk meta so I’ll be honest I’m loving the PvP meta atm, but the main reason thief got the buff was for pve. The AA for pve was horrid. When it comes to PvP though the reason why this AA is being cried over is the removal of the bunker amulets. Also quick question what class and build do u run?

I play longbow ranger the most, but play plenty of tankier builds/classes my favorite of which is meditrapper DH… which is still very strong against thieves. I also play glass zerker thief.

I’m not complaining that thieves are impossible to beat and I am not looking for advice on how to beat them. I already know how from the perspective of many other builds. The message behind this thread is not that I need help with thieves, it’s that thief viability needs to be improved through something other than buffing AA damage because it does not promote skillful play.

Edit: kittens

ITT: People who let thieves backstab them with no stun breaks QQ’ing in the thread.

GodOfWar.3624:

ITT: People who let thieves backstab them with no stun breaks QQ’ing in the thread.

ITT: People making comments without reading.

Backstab is fine. This is about auto attack.

Orion.3812:

GodOfWar.3624:

ITT: People who let thieves backstab them with no stun breaks QQ’ing in the thread.

ITT: People making comments without reading.

Backstab is fine. This is about auto attack.

This is about MELEE auto attack. That you can walk out of or counterpressure since the thief can’t do anything defensive while auto attacking. I still have zero problems on thief even on Mesmer. Because I know how to prevent myself from being hit by MELEE auto attack. That you can walk out of. Or counterpressure against.

With all the passives and AoEs in this game (btw that thief has minimal access to), a MELEE auto attack buff should be the last of your complaints. Sorry but if you’re letting someone dagger you in the face, you deserve big damage. Bigger than vs an AoE or passive attack. Passive like 10k ranger pet attacks.

I fancy myself a decent player, and I’ve always loved Thief, but roaming around in WvW in full zerker gear isn’t exactly easy mode. Sure I get the occasional easy prey, but I can easily be shot down.

Mesmers are like bombs I’ve learned. If I hit them they just explode on me if I’m not careful.

Orion.3812:

I’m going to go ahead and bump this thread to draw attention to how exceptionally toxic our community is these days. Everything is an “L2P” issue. Hardly anyone wants to address the problem. Most would rather insult the skill of anyone who seems to think their class is unbalanced without any attempt to consider the argument.

You can take issue with people’s attitudes all you want, but their responses are valid. Thief has been in a truly dire place since June 2015, and yet people of low skill still regularly wander into these forums to complain about Thief being “OP” in one way or another. At this point, frequent forum-goers are pretty tired of that dynamic, which unfortunately has been given new life after Thief received minor buffs in an area no one was asking for that don’t address any meaningful class issues.

While the meta is changing due to the bunker nerfs, nothing substantial has changed with Thief itself. If you are consistently losing 1v1s against Thieves that you would have won before, then you are simply not prepared for the matchup. A small increase in autoattack damage attached to the same squishiness and lack of utility means Thieves are not meaningfully harder for properly prepared players.

Orion.3812:

The message behind this thread is not that I need help with thieves, it’s that thief viability needs to be improved through something other than buffing AA damage because it does not promote skillful play.

Seems like the real message is that you DO need help with Thieves, judging by your posting and the conclusions you’re drawing, but even if we’re being charitable and assuming all you really want is to highlight how “Thief viability needs to be improved through something other than AA damage”, you’re wasting your time posting here. The designer in charge of Thief doesn’t care about the class, and only makes minor number-based changes when he’s forced to. We’ve been trying to get substantial, mechanics-based changes that encourage skill for years with little to no results.

Developers simply don’t read the Thief forums, so if your want your feedback noted, you’re better off complaining about Thief in the SPvP forum as a self-defined non-Thief player. Those posts do get read.

Orion.3812:

Pre-patch: attacking a thief reduces the amount of damage they can deal by forcing them to go defensive.
Post-patch: thieves can attack with impunity, doing obscene amounts of damage despite spending all of their initiative on gap-closers or defensive abilities. They no longer have to back off to recover initiative—and combat momentum—when pressured.

On top of this enormous buff to combat momentum in PvP/WvW, it’s childishly easy for a berseker-geared thief to kill someone before they can blink. Using a combination of Panic Strike (second-tier Deadly Arts trait) and Basilisk Venom, many engagements I have seen go like this: Basilisk Venom -> Steal -> Win. No other button presses are used, because autoattack is now so powerful that the use of backstab has become a style choice instead of a skill-rewarding ability required to make a clean kill.

Looking out from the walls of Stonemist Castle right now, all I see is thieves. Something is wrong here.

So is this implicitly suggesting that thief damage be rolled back so their zerker wont beat your zerker, or is this suggesting that blink does not break stun -and- move you even if you are immobilized?

What do you want done to fix this problem? Would you like backstab scaled instead? I’m okay with that.

Orion.3812:

Nizio Nightblade.8109:

Orion.3812:

I’m going to go ahead and bump this thread to draw attention to how exceptionally toxic our community is these days. Everything is an “L2P” issue. Hardly anyone wants to address the problem. Most would rather insult the skill of anyone who seems to think their class is unbalanced without any attempt to consider the argument.

Just because you are not good enough to play a glass thief that can one-shot people and stay alive doesn’t mean the class is balanced.

Thanks, to those of you who actually gave halfway intelligent replies regardless of which side of the argument you took.

okay so I main thief through the whole bunk meta so I’ll be honest I’m loving the PvP meta atm, but the main reason thief got the buff was for pve. The AA for pve was horrid. When it comes to PvP though the reason why this AA is being cried over is the removal of the bunker amulets. Also quick question what class and build do u run?

I play longbow ranger the most, but play plenty of tankier builds/classes my favorite of which is meditrapper DH… which is still very strong against thieves. I also play glass zerker thief.

I’m not complaining that thieves are impossible to beat and I am not looking for advice on how to beat them. I already know how from the perspective of many other builds. The message behind this thread is not that I need help with thieves, it’s that thief viability needs to be improved through something other than buffing AA damage because it does not promote skillful play.

Edit: kittens

Sorry but for viablity reason thief needs the AA buff for pve. PvP on lb glass ranger gets hard countered by d/p thief, happens, u should win as dh. But yeah overall a 4-5k AA on a glasss thief should be fine since it is in melee range. And u can always counter pressure. Also it’s only a 1k boost to what AA DPS use to be…

Nizio Nightblade.8109:

Also it’s only a 1k boost to what AA DPS use to be…

Don’t bother.

People don’t understand math.

BeepBoopBop.5403:

Orion.3812:

GodOfWar.3624:

ITT: People who let thieves backstab them with no stun breaks QQ’ing in the thread.

ITT: People making comments without reading.

Backstab is fine. This is about auto attack.

This is about MELEE auto attack. That you can walk out of or counterpressure since the thief can’t do anything defensive while auto attacking. I still have zero problems on thief even on Mesmer. Because I know how to prevent myself from being hit by MELEE auto attack. That you can walk out of. Or counterpressure against.

With all the passives and AoEs in this game (btw that thief has minimal access to), a MELEE auto attack buff should be the last of your complaints. Sorry but if you’re letting someone dagger you in the face, you deserve big damage. Bigger than vs an AoE or passive attack. Passive like 10k ranger pet attacks.

No ranger pet hits passively for 10k damage. A remorseless tiger on a stupidly squishy target with double signet buff might get that high on an F2 active pounce, if the ranger dumps all cooldowns in a one trick pony spec into one shamefully obvious attack that you can literally walk away from because of pet AI problems.

You cannot “walk” away from a thief. Since when are thieves rooted during melee autoattack like certain other leather-wearing professions and their pets? They are completely free to pursue you with more mobility than any other profession in the game. The only counter to a thief is pressure, and a good thief will handle the pressure by spending initiative. Pre-patch a thief with a weak auto and no initiative was no longer a serious threat. Post-patch a pressured thief is far more adept at killing you.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Orion.3812:

Pre-patch: attacking a thief reduces the amount of damage they can deal by forcing them to go defensive.
Post-patch: thieves can attack with impunity, doing obscene amounts of damage despite spending all of their initiative on gap-closers or defensive abilities. They no longer have to back off to recover initiative—and combat momentum—when pressured.

On top of this enormous buff to combat momentum in PvP/WvW, it’s childishly easy for a berseker-geared thief to kill someone before they can blink. Using a combination of Panic Strike (second-tier Deadly Arts trait) and Basilisk Venom, many engagements I have seen go like this: Basilisk Venom -> Steal -> Win. No other button presses are used, because autoattack is now so powerful that the use of backstab has become a style choice instead of a skill-rewarding ability required to make a clean kill.

Looking out from the walls of Stonemist Castle right now, all I see is thieves. Something is wrong here.

So is this implicitly suggesting that thief damage be rolled back so their zerker wont beat your zerker, or is this suggesting that blink does not break stun -and- move you even if you are immobilized?

What do you want done to fix this problem? Would you like backstab scaled instead? I’m okay with that.

Good question, and good to see someone asking a question and contributing to constructive discussion.

What thieves need is something to get them invited to raids, yes? Thief needs something that gives them a way to buff the total damage that a raid does, not their own damage. Conveniently, we already have traits that give existing boons or conditions an extra effect: reapers deal damage with chill, as an example.

Thieves fit the right archetype to make them masters of vulnerability. My suggestion for your review:

1) Revert the autoattack damage change.
2) Rework Revealed Training
– Rename to Revealed Target
– Damage to targets to which you have applied Vulnerability is increased by 5% from all sources

Thoughts?

Orion.3812:

- Damage to targets to which you have applied Vulnerability is increased by 5% from all sources
Thoughts?

Per stack or baseline?

There’s no reason to take this over panic strike for group combat, since an immob negates incoming damage prevention through evasion or movement.

Sundering strikes is already useful for pve as it stands, as vulnerability already applies for all sources per stack.

I’m interested in quintupling the incoming damage per stack for vuln though, in exchange for giving up panic strike. You can even cap it at, say, five stacks; so it only applies to thief-applied vulnerability stacks, and only up to five times., to prevent people with high crit builds from blowing up targets.

But I’m not going to really settle for anything less than that, because sundering strikes handles raid involvement as is with the current auto buff, and any other application of revealed target would be superseded by panic strike in any sphere that was not pve.

Orion.3812:

BeepBoopBop.5403:

Orion.3812:

GodOfWar.3624:

ITT: People who let thieves backstab them with no stun breaks QQ’ing in the thread.

ITT: People making comments without reading.

Backstab is fine. This is about auto attack.

This is about MELEE auto attack. That you can walk out of or counterpressure since the thief can’t do anything defensive while auto attacking. I still have zero problems on thief even on Mesmer. Because I know how to prevent myself from being hit by MELEE auto attack. That you can walk out of. Or counterpressure against.

With all the passives and AoEs in this game (btw that thief has minimal access to), a MELEE auto attack buff should be the last of your complaints. Sorry but if you’re letting someone dagger you in the face, you deserve big damage. Bigger than vs an AoE or passive attack. Passive like 10k ranger pet attacks.

No ranger pet hits passively for 10k damage. A remorseless tiger on a stupidly squishy target with double signet buff might get that high on an F2 active pounce, if the ranger dumps all cooldowns in a one trick pony spec into one shamefully obvious attack that you can literally walk away from because of pet AI problems.

You cannot “walk” away from a thief. Since when are thieves rooted during melee autoattack like certain other leather-wearing professions and their pets? They are completely free to pursue you with more mobility than any other profession in the game. The only counter to a thief is pressure, and a good thief will handle the pressure by spending initiative. Pre-patch a thief with a weak auto and no initiative was no longer a serious threat. Post-patch a pressured thief is far more adept at killing you.

smokescale…. Also is it problem with both staff and dagger or just dagger?

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Orion.3812:

- Damage to targets to which you have applied Vulnerability is increased by 5% from all sources
Thoughts?

Per stack or baseline?

There’s no reason to take this over panic strike for group combat, since an immob negates incoming damage prevention through evasion or movement.

Sundering strikes is already useful for pve as it stands, as vulnerability already applies for all sources per stack.

I’m interested in quintupling the incoming damage per stack for vuln though, in exchange for giving up panic strike. You can even cap it at, say, five stacks; so it only applies to thief-applied vulnerability stacks, and only up to five times., to prevent people with high crit builds from blowing up targets.

But I’m not going to really settle for anything less than that, because sundering strikes handles raid involvement as is with the current auto buff, and any other application of revealed target would be superseded by panic strike in any sphere that was not pve.

Right, regardless of the actual group damage buff number the proposed Revealed Target would apply the point is that it’s a PvE upgrade. If thieves need help in PvE and in particular need group utility, then it seems like this sort of damage multiplier would give a thief group utility and a small buff for themselves without significantly impacting PvP/WvW since it would still compete with Panic Strike which is the obviously superior PvP choice.

In PvP/WvW, thieves need less evade/block/mobility and more soft sustain outside of stealth (condi removal, healing). Coincidentally, thieves already received these exact buffs along with even more evades when they got Daredevil (heal on evade, condi removal on evade, +1 evade).

Was Daredevil enough? I’d rather keep this thread about improving thief PvE options instead of Daredevil PvP, but I’d make the argument that it was not Daredevils being inadequate but bunkers or bunker-like builds being too powerful that made the problem.

By buffing thief damage to make them competitive against the toughest nuts to crack, thief has become too powerful against other lightweights. Instead, in PvP thief should remain the same and bunkers should be less able to recover from a solid hit.

Nizio Nightblade.8109:

Orion.3812:

BeepBoopBop.5403:

Orion.3812:

GodOfWar.3624:

ITT: People who let thieves backstab them with no stun breaks QQ’ing in the thread.

ITT: People making comments without reading.

Backstab is fine. This is about auto attack.

This is about MELEE auto attack. That you can walk out of or counterpressure since the thief can’t do anything defensive while auto attacking. I still have zero problems on thief even on Mesmer. Because I know how to prevent myself from being hit by MELEE auto attack. That you can walk out of. Or counterpressure against.

With all the passives and AoEs in this game (btw that thief has minimal access to), a MELEE auto attack buff should be the last of your complaints. Sorry but if you’re letting someone dagger you in the face, you deserve big damage. Bigger than vs an AoE or passive attack. Passive like 10k ranger pet attacks.

No ranger pet hits passively for 10k damage. A remorseless tiger on a stupidly squishy target with double signet buff might get that high on an F2 active pounce, if the ranger dumps all cooldowns in a one trick pony spec into one shamefully obvious attack that you can literally walk away from because of pet AI problems.

You cannot “walk” away from a thief. Since when are thieves rooted during melee autoattack like certain other leather-wearing professions and their pets? They are completely free to pursue you with more mobility than any other profession in the game. The only counter to a thief is pressure, and a good thief will handle the pressure by spending initiative. Pre-patch a thief with a weak auto and no initiative was no longer a serious threat. Post-patch a pressured thief is far more adept at killing you.

smokescale…. Also is it problem with both staff and dagger or just dagger?

Staff auto damage is also a potential problem, but lacks some of the d/p utility and so I have rarely encountered thieves using it outside of PvE. I’ve been hit by it. It was stupidly powerful and has the same basilisk-autoattack win potential, but if you actively try to get away the staff has far more obvious tells to dodge and more expensive mobility skills compared to shadow shot. I do think it should not have been buffed, even if I don’t see it as the glaring issue basilisk-autoattack (or shadow shot auto spam) is with d/p.

As for the smokescale, I assume you’re talking about its revenant-sword-like ability. That damage isn’t instant like a tiger pounce, gets split between other nearby targets, and was nerfed (twice?). I don’t think I’ve seen a passive 10k from that either.

Orion.3812:

In PvP/WvW, thieves need less evade/block/mobility and more soft sustain outside of stealth (condi removal, healing). Coincidentally, thieves already received these exact buffs along with even more evades when they got Daredevil (heal on evade, condi removal on evade, +1 evade).

I’m going to reply to this in full sometime later, but I just want to say that, judging from the backlash thieves got when we got a taste of “soft sustain”, which I assume is passive sustain, there are just as many people against that as there are against hard sustain.

And yet thief is the squishiest class, still.

Gonna sit on this for a while until I settle on “you have a point” or “Thief being usable in general is bad”.