Guild Wars 2

Karl McLain.5604:

I believe this was fixed in the July 28th release. It’s possible that they could behave the exact same as mantras. At this time, we’re going with the theme that Distracting Daggers are something you can hold over your opponents for a period of time, and then it’s gone. We’d rather encourage using the daggers and getting those interrupts off, than simply holding the daggers for hours at a time.
Please feel free to let us know how they play during the next beta event. There’s quite a few ways to go with the ability and I’m not sure they have to behave exactly like mantras.

My mistake on the Mantra cooldown thing, sorry! I should probably stop thinking of Distracting Daggers as a Mantra and focus more on its unique properties anyway

On that note, I forgot to mention one other major issue greatly hindering the intended effectiveness of Distracting Daggers: the 1s~ ICD between individual uses. Between the ICD and the travel time, it’s functionally impossible to interrupt people who have Stability or even a Block up, as by the time the Daggers are off ICD from their first use, the ability you were trying to interrupt has already been safely completed. This is especially frustrating with things like Guardian’s Shelter.

My recommendation would be to either remove the ICD, or keep it and make the thrown daggers unblockable. Regardless, it would be great to hear your rationale on why you feel an ICD is necessary, given the reasons above.

Karl McLain.5604:

Amante.8109:

Let’s not forget that Mantras, once pre-casted, immediately start cooling down for future use

I believe this was fixed in the July 28th release. It’s possible that they could behave the exact same as mantras. At this time, we’re going with the theme that Distracting Daggers are something you can hold over your opponents for a period of time, and then it’s gone. We’d rather encourage using the daggers and getting those interrupts off, than simply holding the daggers for hours at a time.
Please feel free to let us know how they play during the next beta event. There’s quite a few ways to go with the ability and I’m not sure they have to behave exactly like mantras.

I’m sure there’s a way to make it function different but equal to mantras. I’ve seen many suggestions that are all pretty cool that change how the ability functions while still being true to it’s intent. The current iteration is just a worse version of an already existing Mantra. Which is why there are so many suggestions asking at the very least to make it work like a mantra.

Mantra of Distraction takes 2 3/4 seconds to cast – Distracting Daggers takes 1/2 seconds to cast (this is the only place that seems like an upgrade)

Mantra of Distraction has 2 charges and can be traited for 3 – Distracting Daggers has 3 charges

Mantra of Distractions charges last forever (negating the longer casting time since they just precast it before a fight) – Distracting Daggers last for 25 seconds

The Mantra has a 5 second cooldown between uses – Distracting Daggers has a 1 second cooldown between uses

The Mantra is an instant interrupt – Distracting Daggers is a projectile

The Mantra has 1,200 range – Distracting Daggers has a 900 Range

The Mantra causes 1 sec Daze – Distracting Daggers has a 1/4 sec Daze (This is massively underpowered since the new defiance bar is based on the time duration of the CC that hits the mob)

Karl McLain.5604:

Amante.8109:

Let’s not forget that Mantras, once pre-casted, immediately start cooling down for future use

I believe this was fixed in the July 28th release. It’s possible that they could behave the exact same as mantras. At this time, we’re going with the theme that Distracting Daggers are something you can hold over your opponents for a period of time, and then it’s gone. We’d rather encourage using the daggers and getting those interrupts off, than simply holding the daggers for hours at a time.
Please feel free to let us know how they play during the next beta event. There’s quite a few ways to go with the ability and I’m not sure they have to behave exactly like mantras.

Have to say I’m surprised that distracting daggers are themed as something held over opponents head, yet people will know you can only hold it for a short period of time. Where as mantra’s you store till you need them. A thief would be prepared especially a daredevil. I wouldn’t say it has to behave exactly like the mantras. But I think that if I have a knife stashed on my body That knife will be there till I remove it or somebody takes it from me It wouldn’t vanish within a few seconds of my putting it there. Thus the thief loosing his knife in a short period after of time makes no sense. I would have it ready for when I need it. As it is you might as well just make it a skill with a short set cool down that throws one dagger when it is activated that interrupts instead of having three uses. Then at the very least it would make more sense. That is just my opinion on it. The way I see it. I attach the blades I use them during fight. After the fight I can retrieve them or during the fight I may find a way to get them again and use them once more. But that is just my opinion on how a thief would be….prepared and not the type to just loose his weapons like an untrained adventurer.

Thanks for the awesome updates but i still looking for a buff or remake for Channeled Vigor . I cant find a reason to use it now , a VERY VERY long cast time without any protection or something in combat.

Shalien.9018:

Karl McLain.5604:

Amante.8109:

Let’s not forget that Mantras, once pre-casted, immediately start cooling down for future use

I believe this was fixed in the July 28th release. It’s possible that they could behave the exact same as mantras. At this time, we’re going with the theme that Distracting Daggers are something you can hold over your opponents for a period of time, and then it’s gone. We’d rather encourage using the daggers and getting those interrupts off, than simply holding the daggers for hours at a time.
Please feel free to let us know how they play during the next beta event. There’s quite a few ways to go with the ability and I’m not sure they have to behave exactly like mantras.

I’m sure there’s a way to make it function different but equal to mantras. I’ve seen many suggestions that are all pretty cool that change how the ability functions while still being true to it’s intent. The current iteration is just a worse version of an already existing Mantra. Which is why there are so many suggestions asking at the very least to make it work like a mantra.

Mantra of Distraction takes 2 3/4 seconds to cast – Distracting Daggers takes 1/2 seconds to cast (this is the only place that seems like an upgrade)

Mantra of Distraction has 2 charges and can be traited for 3 – Distracting Daggers has 3 charges

Mantra of Distractions charges last forever (negating the longer casting time since they just precast it before a fight) – Distracting Daggers last for 25 seconds

The Mantra has a 5 second cooldown between uses – Distracting Daggers has a 1 second cooldown between uses

The Mantra is an instant interrupt – Distracting Daggers is a projectile

The Mantra has 1,200 range – Distracting Daggers has a 900 Range

The Mantra causes 1 sec Daze – Distracting Daggers has a 1/4 sec Daze (This is massively underpowered since the new defiance bar is based on the time duration of the CC that hits the mob)

you forgot the mantra hits on a 240 radius AoE centered around the target.

RunicAura.9860:

I wouldn’t say it has to behave exactly like the mantras. But I think that if I have a knife stashed on my body That knife will be there till I remove it or somebody takes it from me It wouldn’t vanish within a few seconds of my putting it there. Thus the thief loosing his knife in a short period after of time makes no sense.

Exactly, that’s what’s so weird about Distracting Daggers for me, the fact that it disappears not only seems oddly balanced (and for what reason?) but also, it’s entirely thematically incorrect.

Why go through the effort of creating an interesting skill effect/animations that gives us daggers attached to our arms, only to have the disappear if they’re not used fast enough. They’re not spirit manifestations, or magic-based weaponry. These are actual, tangible daggers, similar to a kit of some kind. Why do they just disappear without being used?

Karl McLain.5604:

Amante.8109:

Let’s not forget that Mantras, once pre-casted, immediately start cooling down for future use

I believe this was fixed in the July 28th release. It’s possible that they could behave the exact same as mantras. At this time, we’re going with the theme that Distracting Daggers are something you can hold over your opponents for a period of time, and then it’s gone. We’d rather encourage using the daggers and getting those interrupts off, than simply holding the daggers for hours at a time.
Please feel free to let us know how they play during the next beta event. There’s quite a few ways to go with the ability and I’m not sure they have to behave exactly like mantras.

Make them unblockable, or have them boon rip or something?

The problem is they just have too much built in counterplay as ranged physical attacks. The only way you’re going to land one is being in your opponent’s face.

I get that you want it to be a pressure skill, but the problem is, given travel time and GW2’s extremely short cast animations, it makes them useless at range. The increased projectile speed may help this, but given the prevalence of aegis, blind, and other covers they’re simply a worse version of headshot.

Consider granting them some other “danger zone” buff during the duration to assist in giving them a pressure feel? Unblockable daggers, giving the daggers a 1-boon rip, or maybe granting the thief immunity to debilitating conditions like blind and weakness while they are active, and removing an immunity for each one used?

This would make them much more effective pressure tools and the limited window for use would make a lot more sense. Boon rip would make them threatening alone, unblockable would make them much more fearsome interrupts, and granting immunity to primarily debilitating conditions (but not damaging one) would make it easier to land the interrupts alone, as well as making the thief a less counterable opponent while the daggers are active, which would give a nice push and pull to the skill.

I get the intent, but even with the listed changes it’s not a very effective pressure tool.

Bandit’s defense

Quoted from other non-official feedback thread for visibility.

2s block would be nice.

We also need to be able to interrupt it at any point in either animation state

Currently it can get you killed by locking you in to the kick in large fights. I don’t want to lose the kick, as it’s awesome when used in the proper conditions, but we should be able to dodge or skill-cancel out of the block OR the kick animation, thus we could use it as a block/stunbreak in large fights and not get murdered becuase we’re leaping in a rnadom direction to kick a guy.

Alternately, it could have an evade on the kick section since we don’t really control the target, and in single fights the target would already be knocked down Thus, we could still get the awesome kungkittenblock>kick combo in a crowded fight without the drawback of becoming vulnerable while doing so.

Ok.. So I heard the reverent is getting a new dodge animation… Wow. As stated earlier, how on earth does the revenant which has good animations get priority over the recycled old ones givin to the daredevil. For me this is like being kicked when I was already down. We don’t even have a fitting idle stance and we are supposed to be the nimble kitten class… Yet, the class with the best animations which also wears full plate gets a dodge animation fix. if you could at least acknowledge all of the people mentioning the animations and let us know it is something on your list, that would make me eternally greatful. On the other hand if it is not something you are going to change or bother to mention then you can count me out. 3 years with you guys but this is a big deal to me.. My class is weak, at least give me something cool to look at while every other class goes invulnerable for 40 seconds and one shots me.

Is the Kick from Bandit’s defense Unblockable? Is it even dodgeable?

Kocoff.7582:

Is the Kick from Bandit’s defense Unblockable? Is it even dodgeable?

It can be blocked or dodged as of last BWE. In ideal circumstances (1v1 melee) it’s highly unlikely the target will have time to do so as it happens so fast after the block, and you usually activate the block while they’re already stuck in the animation for their stun follow-up so the kick’s animation is usually covered by their aftercast.

In group fights or piles of mobs though, the problem is that you can’t dodge-cancel the block or the kick, and the combination of the two animations together is a pretty long stretch of not being able to reactively dodge, which can get you killed pretty fast.

Karl McLain.5604:

Amante.8109:

Let’s not forget that Mantras, once pre-casted, immediately start cooling down for future use

I believe this was fixed in the July 28th release. It’s possible that they could behave the exact same as mantras. At this time, we’re going with the theme that Distracting Daggers are something you can hold over your opponents for a period of time, and then it’s gone. We’d rather encourage using the daggers and getting those interrupts off, than simply holding the daggers for hours at a time.
Please feel free to let us know how they play during the next beta event. There’s quite a few ways to go with the ability and I’m not sure they have to behave exactly like mantras.

They don’t have to behave exactly like mantras, but in the way the game is currently balanced they more than certainly need to.

As it stands, there is a LOT of things Thief can do that is subpar to the capabilities of multiple existing classes. There needs to stop being a ‘but’ after everything, and not every powerful ability needs to have an immediate downside associated with it. If other classes followed the same rules I’d be all for this, but they don’t.

I appreciate that you’re trying to consider balance in every move you make by introducing ‘if’ and ‘ors’, making us choose what we want to give up in order to gain x y and z thing, but nearly every other class out there (and especially the elite specs) operate on ‘and’.

Cyrus.4105:

I appreciate that you’re trying to consider balance in every move you make by introducing ‘if’ and ‘ors’, making us choose what we want to give up in order to gain x y and z thing, but nearly every other class out there (and especially the elite specs) operate on ‘and’.

This 100%.

It’d be nice to be able to do something more than help skip content in a group setting. It’d be nice to have a fair chance in a 1v1 against any other profession if the players were of equal skill. It’d be nice to be able to be an in-the-thick-of-things fighter like Daredevil’s supposed to be.

As it stands, Staff is looking like it’ll be one of the lowest utility/survivability weapons , we wont have a Tier 3 Major Grandmaster trait in Daredevil outside of the base spec mechanic and our utilities will all be balanced as if we were in the Elementalists spot balance wise.

Karl McLain.5604:

Hey all,
here’s some other changes that happened today.

note: There was a bit of feedback that the auto-attack wasn’t up to snuff. We took a look today and decided that it was quite the case, being that damage on this weapon set is more localized onto the auto-attack.
Staff Strike: Increased damage by 5%.
Staff Bash: Increased damage by 18%.
Punishing Strikes: Increased damage by 20% per attack. Added a missile reflect skill fact.
Hook Strike: Increased damage by ~250%. note: The damage is still on the lower side for the weapon, but now deals more than practically zero. This ability is intended to set up high damage combos through crowd control, thus we’re trying to keep the damage lower than other from-stealth abilities.

Weakening Charge: This ability is now targeted, with the animation being cleaned up a bit. Distance traveled is slightly less, to increase the ease of landing multiple hits on a target. Reduced aftercast slightly (120ms).

Debilitating Arc: Included an evade fact. This ability continues to evade from the start of the ability.

Impaling Lotus: Removed the hidden initiative cost.

EDIT FOR BOLD!!!!!!

Baby steps towards the right direction — Thanks Karl.

By the way, are you also going to add “This ability continues to evade from the start of the ability” to all the Thief’s skill #3 (i.e. Death Blossom)?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Karl McLain.5604:

Hey all,
here’s some other changes that happened today.

note: There was a bit of feedback that the auto-attack wasn’t up to snuff. We took a look today and decided that it was quite the case, being that damage on this weapon set is more localized onto the auto-attack.
Staff Strike: Increased damage by 5%.
Staff Bash: Increased damage by 18%.
Punishing Strikes: Increased damage by 20% per attack. Added a missile reflect skill fact.
Hook Strike: Increased damage by ~250%. note: The damage is still on the lower side for the weapon, but now deals more than practically zero. This ability is intended to set up high damage combos through crowd control, thus we’re trying to keep the damage lower than other from-stealth abilities.

Weakening Charge: This ability is now targeted, with the animation being cleaned up a bit. Distance traveled is slightly less, to increase the ease of landing multiple hits on a target. Reduced aftercast slightly (120ms).

Debilitating Arc: Included an evade fact. This ability continues to evade from the start of the ability.

Impaling Lotus: Removed the hidden initiative cost.

EDIT FOR BOLD!!!!!!

Baby steps towards the right direction — Thanks Karl.

By the way, are you also going to add “This ability continues to evade from the start of the ability” to all the Thief’s skill #3 (i.e. Death Blossom)?

QFT. Please take a look at the D/D dual attack. I know you’re busy, but this needs some help in particular, especially with so many revealing skills being added to the game.

Ideas for D/D & X/D

Cyrus.4105:

I appreciate that you’re trying to consider balance in every move you make by introducing ‘if’ and ‘ors’, making us choose what we want to give up in order to gain x y and z thing, but nearly every other class out there (and especially the elite specs) operate on ‘and’.

This perfectly summarizes what it feels like to play Thief.

I know that in theory, we’re not supposed to “compare” classes, even though class design is a collaborative team effort (and never mind that classes are literally competing with each other in game, so comparisons between them are actually incredibly relevant).

Still, it’s hard not to feel like Thief is continually being handled with kid gloves when you see a reveal like the Scrapper. Loads of durability, traits that convert durability into damage (why don’t we have these again?), an arguably better version of Shadow Refuge…

Here’s a few Scrapper traits that, if anything, highlight things that Thief is sorely missing:

Impact Savant (Minor): The duration of your outgoing stuns is increased and the duration of stuns applied to you is decreased.
Recovery Matrix: Using a healing skill temporarily reduces damage you receive.
Rapid Regeneration: Rapidly recover health while affected by swiftness or super speed.
Mass Momentum: Gain Power based upon your Toughness. While you are affected by stability, gain stacking might.
Perfectly Weighted: Hammer skills deal increased damage. Evading an attack grants stability.
Expert Examination: Stunning or dazing a foe applies vulnerability and weakness to them.
Adaptive Armor: Gain stacking toughness when struck. Reduce incoming damage from conditions.

That last one is a Grandmaster trait, unsurprisingly. I wonder what sort of Grandmaster traits Daredevil could have potentially had…

Karl McLain.5604:

Amante.8109:

Let’s not forget that Mantras, once pre-casted, immediately start cooling down for future use

I believe this was fixed in the July 28th release. It’s possible that they could behave the exact same as mantras. At this time, we’re going with the theme that Distracting Daggers are something you can hold over your opponents for a period of time, and then it’s gone. We’d rather encourage using the daggers and getting those interrupts off, than simply holding the daggers for hours at a time.
Please feel free to let us know how they play during the next beta event. There’s quite a few ways to go with the ability and I’m not sure they have to behave exactly like mantras.

IMO the daggers should work like this…

-No cast time to activate. ALWAYS ON, 2x charges.
-Each dagger has an independant recharge timer of 25 seconds (reduced to 20 with physical trait).

Think of it like a Monk’s dash ability in Diablo3.

Vyce.2014:

Karl McLain.5604:

Amante.8109:

Let’s not forget that Mantras, once pre-casted, immediately start cooling down for future use

I believe this was fixed in the July 28th release. It’s possible that they could behave the exact same as mantras. At this time, we’re going with the theme that Distracting Daggers are something you can hold over your opponents for a period of time, and then it’s gone. We’d rather encourage using the daggers and getting those interrupts off, than simply holding the daggers for hours at a time.
Please feel free to let us know how they play during the next beta event. There’s quite a few ways to go with the ability and I’m not sure they have to behave exactly like mantras.

IMO the daggers should work like this…

-No cast time to activate. ALWAYS ON, 2x charges.
-Each dagger has an independant recharge timer of 25 seconds (reduced to 20 with physical trait).

Think of it like a Monk’s dash ability in Diablo3.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I don’t know why you have to make this skill function like a Venom or Mantra when you can just have it reload a dagger over time up to 3 daggers — like every 5 seconds. Just remove the required activation step, it is unnecessary. This way, you can control the number of daggers by increasing/decreasing the reload time.

Smart people think alike.

That would definitely be the best solution, but I have a feeling they don’t want to try and finagle the tech required for it. :/ Are there any preexisting skills that work on a charge system like that they could crib from?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Vyce.2014:

Karl McLain.5604:

Amante.8109:

Let’s not forget that Mantras, once pre-casted, immediately start cooling down for future use

I believe this was fixed in the July 28th release. It’s possible that they could behave the exact same as mantras. At this time, we’re going with the theme that Distracting Daggers are something you can hold over your opponents for a period of time, and then it’s gone. We’d rather encourage using the daggers and getting those interrupts off, than simply holding the daggers for hours at a time.
Please feel free to let us know how they play during the next beta event. There’s quite a few ways to go with the ability and I’m not sure they have to behave exactly like mantras.

IMO the daggers should work like this…

-No cast time to activate. ALWAYS ON, 2x charges.
-Each dagger has an independant recharge timer of 25 seconds (reduced to 20 with physical trait).

Think of it like a Monk’s dash ability in Diablo3.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I don’t know why you have to make this skill function like a Venom or Mantra when you can just have it reload a dagger over time up to 3 daggers — like every 5 seconds. Just remove the required activation step, it is unnecessary. This way, you can control the number of daggers by increasing/decreasing the reload time.

Smart people think alike.

So this would be like building up dagger charges over time? Sort of like the skill getting its own independent initiative? Let’s assume each dagger charge is 8 seconds (25/3=8.333). So maybe 3 is the max and then you use all 3 in quick succession, basically it would take 24 seconds to reach 3 charges again. But if you have 3 and use 1 (leaving you with 2) you can wait 8 seconds and you’ll be back up to 3 (if I’m understanding this correctly). That would be pretty cool.

Maugetarr.6823:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Vyce.2014:

Karl McLain.5604:

Amante.8109:

Let’s not forget that Mantras, once pre-casted, immediately start cooling down for future use

I believe this was fixed in the July 28th release. It’s possible that they could behave the exact same as mantras. At this time, we’re going with the theme that Distracting Daggers are something you can hold over your opponents for a period of time, and then it’s gone. We’d rather encourage using the daggers and getting those interrupts off, than simply holding the daggers for hours at a time.
Please feel free to let us know how they play during the next beta event. There’s quite a few ways to go with the ability and I’m not sure they have to behave exactly like mantras.

IMO the daggers should work like this…

-No cast time to activate. ALWAYS ON, 2x charges.
-Each dagger has an independant recharge timer of 25 seconds (reduced to 20 with physical trait).

Think of it like a Monk’s dash ability in Diablo3.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I don’t know why you have to make this skill function like a Venom or Mantra when you can just have it reload a dagger over time up to 3 daggers — like every 5 seconds. Just remove the required activation step, it is unnecessary. This way, you can control the number of daggers by increasing/decreasing the reload time.

Smart people think alike.

So this would be like building up dagger charges over time? Sort of like the skill getting its own independent initiative? Let’s assume each dagger charge is 8 seconds (25/3=8.333). So maybe 3 is the max and then you use all 3 in quick succession, basically it would take 24 seconds to reach 3 charges again. But if you have 3 and use 1 (leaving you with 2) you can wait 8 seconds and you’ll be back up to 3 (if I’m understanding this correctly). That would be pretty cool.

Exactly!

I had a couple thoughts on Staff I’d like to share.

People are generally of the opinion right now that Debilitating Arc is of limited usefulness, as the evade back takes you out of melee range. This forces you to spend even more Initiative on Vault or Weakening Charge to get back in after evading if you want to keep doing damage at all. Lest ArenaNet forget, Initiative is a precious resource that Thief never really has enough of.

My suggestion would be to add an effect to Debilitating Arc along these lines: “Your next Weakening Charge within X seconds costs no initiative.”

Amante.8109:

I had a couple thoughts on Staff I’d like to share.

People are generally of the opinion right now that Debilitating Arc is of limited usefulness, as the evade back takes you out of melee range. This forces you to spend even more Initiative on Vault or Weakening Charge to get back in after evading if you want to keep doing damage at all. Lest ArenaNet forget, Initiative is a precious resource that Thief never really has enough of.

My suggestion would be to add an effect to Debilitating Arc along these lines: “Your next Weakening Charge within X seconds costs no initiative.”

The only way that DebArc will be used is to give the Theif a breather, meaning when they don’t want to keep doing damage, perhaps heal or cleanse.

What you want is to combo it with other skills, but if you choose to do that, it has to cost you and making other skills cost less will make this skill to powerful because of what it can do.

For the cost of 4 init, you can;
- deals damage
- cleaves upto 3 targets
- evade attack
- gap creator
- break immobilize/cripple
- then heal if you successfully evade

Then you want to make the next gap closer for free? Too much stuff for a cost of 4 initiative don’t you think?

Maugetarr.6823:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Vyce.2014:

Karl McLain.5604:

Amante.8109:

Let’s not forget that Mantras, once pre-casted, immediately start cooling down for future use

I believe this was fixed in the July 28th release. It’s possible that they could behave the exact same as mantras. At this time, we’re going with the theme that Distracting Daggers are something you can hold over your opponents for a period of time, and then it’s gone. We’d rather encourage using the daggers and getting those interrupts off, than simply holding the daggers for hours at a time.
Please feel free to let us know how they play during the next beta event. There’s quite a few ways to go with the ability and I’m not sure they have to behave exactly like mantras.

IMO the daggers should work like this…

-No cast time to activate. ALWAYS ON, 2x charges.
-Each dagger has an independant recharge timer of 25 seconds (reduced to 20 with physical trait).

Think of it like a Monk’s dash ability in Diablo3.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I don’t know why you have to make this skill function like a Venom or Mantra when you can just have it reload a dagger over time up to 3 daggers — like every 5 seconds. Just remove the required activation step, it is unnecessary. This way, you can control the number of daggers by increasing/decreasing the reload time.

Smart people think alike.

So this would be like building up dagger charges over time? Sort of like the skill getting its own independent initiative? Let’s assume each dagger charge is 8 seconds (25/3=8.333). So maybe 3 is the max and then you use all 3 in quick succession, basically it would take 24 seconds to reach 3 charges again. But if you have 3 and use 1 (leaving you with 2) you can wait 8 seconds and you’ll be back up to 3 (if I’m understanding this correctly). That would be pretty cool.

That’s not exactly what I meant, though that can work too.

What I meant was that each dagger has its own independent CD of 25(20) seconds. So if you spam all three, you have to wait 25(20) seconds before any are back… But if you use one every 8 seconds, then you get a new one every ~8 seconds.

Does my version make sense?

Honestly they’re close enough in practice that I’d like either implementation.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Amante.8109:

I had a couple thoughts on Staff I’d like to share.

People are generally of the opinion right now that Debilitating Arc is of limited usefulness, as the evade back takes you out of melee range. This forces you to spend even more Initiative on Vault or Weakening Charge to get back in after evading if you want to keep doing damage at all. Lest ArenaNet forget, Initiative is a precious resource that Thief never really has enough of.

My suggestion would be to add an effect to Debilitating Arc along these lines: “Your next Weakening Charge within X seconds costs no initiative.”

The only way that DebArc will be used is to give the Theif a breather, meaning when they don’t want to keep doing damage, perhaps heal or cleanse.

What you want is to combo it with other skills, but if you choose to do that, it has to cost you and making other skills cost less will make this skill to powerful because of what it can do.

For the cost of 4 init, you can;
- deals damage
- cleaves upto 3 targets
- evade attack
- gap creator
- break immobilize/cripple
- then heal if you successfully evade

Then you want to make the next gap closer for free? Too much stuff for a cost of 4 initiative don’t you think?

That ability in actuality will cost 8 or more initiative if you stay on staff. Which is 66% of a Thief’s base initiative pool right there. That means to use that combo, you’ll be forced into Trickery. With that it will still cost you over 50% of your initiative just to use those two abilities.

Creating a gap as a DD is counter-productive and initiative does not regenerate nearly as quickly as endurance does (im referring to DD endurance regeneration specifically.) Let’s say it stays the same and we swap weapons to main hand sword or dagger. Infiltrators strike and Heartseeker both cost 3 intitative. So to use that ability then switch weapons will cost you a 10 second weapon swap cooldown and 7 initiative. That is very costly for something Withdraw does for you for no initiative cost with a heal, condi removal, evade and a much larger gap opener. Not to mention only an 18 second cooldown.

Amante has the right idea but the problem with his/her suggestion is that it kind of forces the player to use that strategy. After every Debilitating Arc everyone would use Weakening Charge if they got that reduced initiative cost. Doesn’t really promote different strategies and tactics.

Amante.8109:

Cyrus.4105:

I appreciate that you’re trying to consider balance in every move you make by introducing ‘if’ and ‘ors’, making us choose what we want to give up in order to gain x y and z thing, but nearly every other class out there (and especially the elite specs) operate on ‘and’.

This perfectly summarizes what it feels like to play Thief.

I know that in theory, we’re not supposed to “compare” classes, even though class design is a collaborative team effort (and never mind that classes are literally competing with each other in game, so comparisons between them are actually incredibly relevant).

Still, it’s hard not to feel like Thief is continually being handled with kid gloves when you see a reveal like the Scrapper. Loads of durability, traits that convert durability into damage (why don’t we have these again?), an arguably better version of Shadow Refuge…

Here’s a few Scrapper traits that, if anything, highlight things that Thief is sorely missing:

Impact Savant (Minor): The duration of your outgoing stuns is increased and the duration of stuns applied to you is decreased.
Recovery Matrix: Using a healing skill temporarily reduces damage you receive.
Rapid Regeneration: Rapidly recover health while affected by swiftness or super speed.
Mass Momentum: Gain Power based upon your Toughness. While you are affected by stability, gain stacking might.
Perfectly Weighted: Hammer skills deal increased damage. Evading an attack grants stability.
Expert Examination: Stunning or dazing a foe applies vulnerability and weakness to them.
Adaptive Armor: Gain stacking toughness when struck. Reduce incoming damage from conditions.

That last one is a Grandmaster trait, unsurprisingly. I wonder what sort of Grandmaster traits Daredevil could have potentially had…

What also has to be looked at are active versus passive triggers and the ease at which each achieved in the game not just what they do.

So imagine adaptive armor only worked on "successful evade’ It becomes much less reliable than "on being struck’

Bllade.1029:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Amante.8109:

I had a couple thoughts on Staff I’d like to share.

People are generally of the opinion right now that Debilitating Arc is of limited usefulness, as the evade back takes you out of melee range. This forces you to spend even more Initiative on Vault or Weakening Charge to get back in after evading if you want to keep doing damage at all. Lest ArenaNet forget, Initiative is a precious resource that Thief never really has enough of.

My suggestion would be to add an effect to Debilitating Arc along these lines: “Your next Weakening Charge within X seconds costs no initiative.”

The only way that DebArc will be used is to give the Theif a breather, meaning when they don’t want to keep doing damage, perhaps heal or cleanse.

What you want is to combo it with other skills, but if you choose to do that, it has to cost you and making other skills cost less will make this skill to powerful because of what it can do.

For the cost of 4 init, you can;
- deals damage
- cleaves upto 3 targets
- evade attack
- gap creator
- break immobilize/cripple
- then heal if you successfully evade

Then you want to make the next gap closer for free? Too much stuff for a cost of 4 initiative don’t you think?

That ability in actuality will cost 8 or more initiative if you stay on staff. Which is 66% of a Thief’s base initiative pool right there. That means to use that combo, you’ll be forced into Trickery. With that it will still cost you over 50% of your initiative just to use those two abilities.

We all pay for the cost of making combos work but making the this to reduce the cost of a skill is not the right way to do this.

Creating a gap as a DD is counter-productive and initiative does not regenerate nearly as quickly as endurance does (im referring to DD endurance regeneration specifically.) Let’s say it stays the same and we swap weapons to main hand sword or dagger. Infiltrators strike and Heartseeker both cost 3 intitative. So to use that ability then switch weapons will cost you a 10 second weapon swap cooldown and 7 initiative. That is very costly for something Withdraw does for you for no initiative cost with a heal, condi removal, evade and a much larger gap opener. Not to mention only an 18 second cooldown.

What this one does that Withdraw can’t do is to be used up to 3 times in a row which will only cost a total of 12s cooldown. And no it’s not counter-productive because there’s no reason to use this skill without reason.

Amante has the right idea but the problem with his/her suggestion is that it kind of forces the player to use that strategy. After every Debilitating Arc everyone would use Weakening Charge if they got that reduced initiative cost. Doesn’t really promote different strategies and tactics.

When I use Withdraw, I close the gap with Steal or Scorpion Wire. You can very well do the same here.

Noct.2718:

Personal finishers on Elite skill or riot.

Couldn’t agree more. It’s quite anti-climatic to not have your personal finisher animation with this move. Still love the move though. :P

Amante.8109:

I had a couple thoughts on Staff I’d like to share.

People are generally of the opinion right now that Debilitating Arc is of limited usefulness, as the evade back takes you out of melee range. This forces you to spend even more Initiative on Vault or Weakening Charge to get back in after evading if you want to keep doing damage at all. Lest ArenaNet forget, Initiative is a precious resource that Thief never really has enough of.

My suggestion would be to add an effect to Debilitating Arc along these lines: “Your next Weakening Charge within X seconds costs no initiative.”

I can not agree. I think the skill very good as is. The evade that is built in is significant and can generate a lot off on evade procs and especially if one goes Acro as well. I do feel D/D needs a skill that will break him out of combat. With the way Bound worked as a dodge I was having more success being further away from the opponent than right on him.

Debilitating arc followed by a dodge into the opponen to get that damage worked very well. The withdraw on arc is 400 units, the dodge distance on bounding dodger is 300 with a 180 radius.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Bllade.1029:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Amante.8109:

I had a couple thoughts on Staff I’d like to share.

People are generally of the opinion right now that Debilitating Arc is of limited usefulness, as the evade back takes you out of melee range. This forces you to spend even more Initiative on Vault or Weakening Charge to get back in after evading if you want to keep doing damage at all. Lest ArenaNet forget, Initiative is a precious resource that Thief never really has enough of.

My suggestion would be to add an effect to Debilitating Arc along these lines: “Your next Weakening Charge within X seconds costs no initiative.”

The only way that DebArc will be used is to give the Theif a breather, meaning when they don’t want to keep doing damage, perhaps heal or cleanse.

What you want is to combo it with other skills, but if you choose to do that, it has to cost you and making other skills cost less will make this skill to powerful because of what it can do.

For the cost of 4 init, you can;
- deals damage
- cleaves upto 3 targets
- evade attack
- gap creator
- break immobilize/cripple
- then heal if you successfully evade

Then you want to make the next gap closer for free? Too much stuff for a cost of 4 initiative don’t you think?

That ability in actuality will cost 8 or more initiative if you stay on staff. Which is 66% of a Thief’s base initiative pool right there. That means to use that combo, you’ll be forced into Trickery. With that it will still cost you over 50% of your initiative just to use those two abilities.

We all pay for the cost of making combos work but making the this to reduce the cost of a skill is not the right way to do this.

Creating a gap as a DD is counter-productive and initiative does not regenerate nearly as quickly as endurance does (im referring to DD endurance regeneration specifically.) Let’s say it stays the same and we swap weapons to main hand sword or dagger. Infiltrators strike and Heartseeker both cost 3 intitative. So to use that ability then switch weapons will cost you a 10 second weapon swap cooldown and 7 initiative. That is very costly for something Withdraw does for you for no initiative cost with a heal, condi removal, evade and a much larger gap opener. Not to mention only an 18 second cooldown.

What this one does that Withdraw can’t do is to be used up to 3 times in a row which will only cost a total of 12s cooldown. And no it’s not counter-productive because there’s no reason to use this skill without reason.

Amante has the right idea but the problem with his/her suggestion is that it kind of forces the player to use that strategy. After every Debilitating Arc everyone would use Weakening Charge if they got that reduced initiative cost. Doesn’t really promote different strategies and tactics.

When I use Withdraw, I close the gap with Steal or Scorpion Wire. You can very well do the same here.

You can also use bounding dodger to get right back in the battle. It actually easier to make that hit at distance and the amount arc pulls you out of battle can be made up for with a bounding dodge. With the evade and immob break and the potential for all those evade procs, i think this skill fine.

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Bllade.1029:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Amante.8109:

I had a couple thoughts on Staff I’d like to share.

People are generally of the opinion right now that Debilitating Arc is of limited usefulness, as the evade back takes you out of melee range. This forces you to spend even more Initiative on Vault or Weakening Charge to get back in after evading if you want to keep doing damage at all. Lest ArenaNet forget, Initiative is a precious resource that Thief never really has enough of.

My suggestion would be to add an effect to Debilitating Arc along these lines: “Your next Weakening Charge within X seconds costs no initiative.”

The only way that DebArc will be used is to give the Theif a breather, meaning when they don’t want to keep doing damage, perhaps heal or cleanse.

What you want is to combo it with other skills, but if you choose to do that, it has to cost you and making other skills cost less will make this skill to powerful because of what it can do.

For the cost of 4 init, you can;
- deals damage
- cleaves upto 3 targets
- evade attack
- gap creator
- break immobilize/cripple
- then heal if you successfully evade

Then you want to make the next gap closer for free? Too much stuff for a cost of 4 initiative don’t you think?

That ability in actuality will cost 8 or more initiative if you stay on staff. Which is 66% of a Thief’s base initiative pool right there. That means to use that combo, you’ll be forced into Trickery. With that it will still cost you over 50% of your initiative just to use those two abilities.

We all pay for the cost of making combos work but making the this to reduce the cost of a skill is not the right way to do this.

Creating a gap as a DD is counter-productive and initiative does not regenerate nearly as quickly as endurance does (im referring to DD endurance regeneration specifically.) Let’s say it stays the same and we swap weapons to main hand sword or dagger. Infiltrators strike and Heartseeker both cost 3 intitative. So to use that ability then switch weapons will cost you a 10 second weapon swap cooldown and 7 initiative. That is very costly for something Withdraw does for you for no initiative cost with a heal, condi removal, evade and a much larger gap opener. Not to mention only an 18 second cooldown.

What this one does that Withdraw can’t do is to be used up to 3 times in a row which will only cost a total of 12s cooldown. And no it’s not counter-productive because there’s no reason to use this skill without reason.

Amante has the right idea but the problem with his/her suggestion is that it kind of forces the player to use that strategy. After every Debilitating Arc everyone would use Weakening Charge if they got that reduced initiative cost. Doesn’t really promote different strategies and tactics.

When I use Withdraw, I close the gap with Steal or Scorpion Wire. You can very well do the same here.

You can also use bounding dodger to get right back in the battle. It actually easier to make that hit at distance and the amount arc pulls you out of battle can be made up for with a bounding dodge. With the evade and immob break and the potential for all those evade procs, i think this skill fine.

That’s true also.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Bllade.1029:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Amante.8109:

I had a couple thoughts on Staff I’d like to share.

People are generally of the opinion right now that Debilitating Arc is of limited usefulness, as the evade back takes you out of melee range. This forces you to spend even more Initiative on Vault or Weakening Charge to get back in after evading if you want to keep doing damage at all. Lest ArenaNet forget, Initiative is a precious resource that Thief never really has enough of.

My suggestion would be to add an effect to Debilitating Arc along these lines: “Your next Weakening Charge within X seconds costs no initiative.”

The only way that DebArc will be used is to give the Theif a breather, meaning when they don’t want to keep doing damage, perhaps heal or cleanse.

What you want is to combo it with other skills, but if you choose to do that, it has to cost you and making other skills cost less will make this skill to powerful because of what it can do.

For the cost of 4 init, you can;
- deals damage
- cleaves upto 3 targets
- evade attack
- gap creator
- break immobilize/cripple
- then heal if you successfully evade

Then you want to make the next gap closer for free? Too much stuff for a cost of 4 initiative don’t you think?

That ability in actuality will cost 8 or more initiative if you stay on staff. Which is 66% of a Thief’s base initiative pool right there. That means to use that combo, you’ll be forced into Trickery. With that it will still cost you over 50% of your initiative just to use those two abilities.

We all pay for the cost of making combos work but making the this to reduce the cost of a skill is not the right way to do this.

Creating a gap as a DD is counter-productive and initiative does not regenerate nearly as quickly as endurance does (im referring to DD endurance regeneration specifically.) Let’s say it stays the same and we swap weapons to main hand sword or dagger. Infiltrators strike and Heartseeker both cost 3 intitative. So to use that ability then switch weapons will cost you a 10 second weapon swap cooldown and 7 initiative. That is very costly for something Withdraw does for you for no initiative cost with a heal, condi removal, evade and a much larger gap opener. Not to mention only an 18 second cooldown.

What this one does that Withdraw can’t do is to be used up to 3 times in a row which will only cost a total of 12s cooldown. And no it’s not counter-productive because there’s no reason to use this skill without reason.

Amante has the right idea but the problem with his/her suggestion is that it kind of forces the player to use that strategy. After every Debilitating Arc everyone would use Weakening Charge if they got that reduced initiative cost. Doesn’t really promote different strategies and tactics.

When I use Withdraw, I close the gap with Steal or Scorpion Wire. You can very well do the same here.

I agree reducing the cost of Weakening Charge after DA isn’t the right way to do this.

The point is that Debilitating Arc is a weaker version of something we already have (Withdraw) on a weapon skill. If you’re going to promote synergy on the Staff initiative cost is going to be the first thing that’s going to shut that weapon’s usefulness down; When we look at initiative cost, it isn’t just the initial cost of one ability we have to consider.

When looking at initiative compared to all the other Thief weapon sets and combinations the Staff is very costly in terms of initiative for the utility provided.

It is counter-productive the minute you seperate yourself from the enemy with a MELEE weapon skill not a utility, not a heal skill a MELEE weapon skill

Let’s compare:

Death Blossom: Evades while stacking bleeds and dealing damage in an AoE area – Still maintains pressure while evading. 4 Initiative.

Shortbow: Disabling Shot – Cripples with an evade at range (This is essentially what the staff is doing for us right now) but the Shortbow is ranged damage. Maintains Pressure – 4 Initiative

Pistol Whip: Stun followed up with high DPS while evading – Maintains Pressure – 5 initiative

Shadow Strike: Apply torment, shadow step away from your enemy (600 range) and deal damage. P/D is RANGED DAMAGE Maintains pressure 4 initiative.

Debilitating Arc: Minor damage, cripple, evade, immobilize removal. – Lose pressure – 4 Initiative

Were going to have to spend something else just to use that ability, whether its a scorpion wire (Utility) Steal (F1) or a Dodge (50 endurance) to close that gap again. All the other weapon sets #3 evade weapon abilities do not require you to do that.

“Fighting yourself and the enemy at the same time is counter-productive and not synergistic within the profession.” – Kruppe (In reference to a Melee weapon ability that costs initiative that takes you out of melee range.)

Karl McLain.5604:

Yo!
Vault: Reduced initiative cost from 6 to 5. Reduced cast time from 1 second to 3/4 second. note: We’ve discussed leaving the initiative high and giving this ability an evade component at the beginning or end. Feel free to let us know what you think.

As someone who was very happy with the feel, play style and damage of the staff (in the build I ran) during it’s maiden voyage in BWE2, but objective enough to see that some improvements would be needed, I’m quite pleased with the list of changes to timing and damage you’re proposing so far Karl.

As for your questions around Vault, here are my thoughts:
- evade on approach (beginning)
- 5 initiative & slightly lower damage, since the lower cost would increase number of uses
- or 6 initiative and keep the damage as is
- make it a blast finisher

I feel this last point is really important. Staff, as an AOE weapon, could bring such wonderful additional utility to a group (specifically thinking in WvW) if Vault was a blast finisher. Thieves NEED another weapon-based blast finisher so that they are not cornered into just using the shortbow. And staff is the perfect candidate.

To that end, the Bound dodge should be a blast finisher too.

Lastly, with the Impact Strike combo, showing our personal finisher instead of an underwhelming, un-fun spike in the ground, would be a great added touch.

Keep up the great work Karl. I’m greatly looking forward to checking out the next iteration in BWE3!

Bllade.1029:

Amante has the right idea but the problem with his/her suggestion is that it kind of forces the player to use that strategy. After every Debilitating Arc everyone would use Weakening Charge if they got that reduced initiative cost. Doesn’t really promote different strategies and tactics.

Good point. It’s an inelegant situation to be sure, but I’m not thinking of any better ones at the moment short of completely redesigning it. Sadly, Debilitating Arc and Dust Strike don’t flow or synergize with the rest of the Staff skills at all.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

When I use Withdraw, I close the gap with Steal or Scorpion Wire. You can very well do the same here.

As Thief, you should not have to blow something as important as Steal just to compensate for one of your own abilities taking you out of melee range as a melee spec. That is simply bad weapon design.

As for Scorpion Wire, it’s a fun skill but in no way relevant to the discussion we’re having. It’s far too buggy and situational to ever be worth slotting in PvP.

Just a suggestion for Unhindered Combatant…from what I have seen, the current animation for Dash is a short version of Rush. Might I suggest that, if absolutely no new animations can be made, the animation for Burning Speed or Shield Bash be used instead? Both of these animations retain the characters weapons (I read that the thief’s weapons would disappear when using Dash), and in my opinion, would feel more like a quick dash than Rush does.

Also…it was suggested a bit earlier that the third hit on our staff auto chain be changed to something similar to the revenant Staff’s 3rd auto, which is the helicopter spin. You could even switch the attack chains around so that the thief would do a swing, then helicopter, and finish with another swing.

Thanks.

blarghhrrkblah.3412:

Just a suggestion for Unhindered Combatant…from what I have seen, the current animation for Dash is a short version of Rush. Might I suggest that, if absolutely no new animations can be made, the animation for Burning Speed or Shield Bash be used instead? Both of these animations retain the characters weapons (I read that the thief’s weapons would disappear when using Dash), and in my opinion, would feel more like a quick dash than Rush does.

I’ve heard two great suggestions on a proper animation for Dash. One is what you mention, the other would be it having little animation at all and being a fairly quick shadowstep instead. Due to the potential for deception, a blinking dodge would have to be carefully balanced, but you could tweak particulars like the distance of the dash and the duration of its boons to compensate.

Either way, really, as the current animation for Dash does not work at all.

Amante.8109:

blarghhrrkblah.3412:

Just a suggestion for Unhindered Combatant…from what I have seen, the current animation for Dash is a short version of Rush. Might I suggest that, if absolutely no new animations can be made, the animation for Burning Speed or Shield Bash be used instead? Both of these animations retain the characters weapons (I read that the thief’s weapons would disappear when using Dash), and in my opinion, would feel more like a quick dash than Rush does.

I’ve heard two great suggestions on a proper animation for Dash. One is what you mention, the other would be it having little animation at all and being a fairly quick shadowstep instead. Due to the potential for deception, a blinking dodge would have to be carefully balanced, but you could tweak particulars like the distance of the dash and the duration of its boons to compensate.

Either way, really, as the current animation for Dash does not work at all.

https://youtu.be/vHNOLytV6hU?t=36s

There’s a good dash animation and speed imo.

Amante.8109:

Bllade.1029:

Amante has the right idea but the problem with his/her suggestion is that it kind of forces the player to use that strategy. After every Debilitating Arc everyone would use Weakening Charge if they got that reduced initiative cost. Doesn’t really promote different strategies and tactics.

Good point. It’s an inelegant situation to be sure, but I’m not thinking of any better ones at the moment short of completely redesigning it. Sadly, Debilitating Arc and Dust Strike don’t flow or synergize with the rest of the Staff skills at all.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

When I use Withdraw, I close the gap with Steal or Scorpion Wire. You can very well do the same here.

As Thief, you should not have to blow something as important as Steal just to compensate for one of your own abilities taking you out of melee range as a melee spec. That is simply bad weapon design.

As for Scorpion Wire, it’s a fun skill but in no way relevant to the discussion we’re having. It’s far too buggy and situational to ever be worth slotting in PvP.

I will continue to disagree..

You suggested that Arc a weaker version of Withdraw. It i not that at all. You can not compare a heal to a weapon skill. There are only three weapon skills in the entire game that break IMMOB and Arc is by far the best.

Withdraw is not something people want to waste just to break an Immob. You want to use it when you need a heal.

Withdraw does not do damage to multiple enemies as one pulls back while Arc does.

Withdraw AND those other Immob breaks all have cooldowns. One can use Arc to break Three Immobs in a row. Nothing else can do this.

Arc also inflicts crippled and has an evade built in which those other weapon immob breakers do not.

Now even with that evade this is why I want to pull back when using Arc.

When Immobed in game this generally followed up by AOE attacks by an enemy or group of the same. It is followed by a hundred blades or a eviscerate or a fire grab or phoenix from an ele. Staying in place and relying on the evade to avoid all that is not enough. I want to get out and avoid what they might have built up for me and then reset my attack sequence with a bounding dodge right into the thick of things.

In the beta the skill did these very things. It also stepped me out of traps being set where I stood . I want that gap opener. While DD is supposed to make it easier for us to fight in melee we still can not fight like warriors or guardians. Our armor is not higher. Our health is not higher. We still have to use some measure of in and out. The set already has a number of in the thick of things attack type skills. I think this added mobility even as it takes you out of battle is something that will be needed.

Karl McLain.5604:

It’s possible that they could behave the exact same as mantras. At this time, we’re going with the theme that Distracting Daggers are something you can hold over your opponents for a period of time, and then it’s gone. We’d rather encourage using the daggers and getting those interrupts off, than simply holding the daggers for hours at a time.
Please feel free to let us know how they play during the next beta event. There’s quite a few ways to go with the ability and I’m not sure they have to behave exactly like mantras.

Why shouldn’t they behave like mantras? Better yet, why shouldn’t they behave more effectively than mantras? Mantras are a part of the core game. I would hope that the skills introduced as part of an elite specialization would be more impressive than the core skills that rival them.

I’m not an expert in balancing, but I can see that Mesmers and Thieves are similar in some ways. They both use stealth effectively, and they both focus on diversion to alter the outcome of a fight, so I think it’s fair to compare the functionality of Distracting Daggers to that of a mantra.

Were going to have to spend something else just to use that ability, whether its a scorpion wire (Utility) Steal (F1) or a Dodge (50 endurance) to close that gap again. All the other weapon sets #3 evade weapon abilities do not require you to do that.

I mostly agree with your point, but I do think that there is value even for a melee class in getting out of melee range occasionally. It does need to come with some perks though.

I still think my favorite idea for this one is to leave it mostly as is, except that it leaves a 240 radius Darkness field where you left from. Then you can Leap/Whirl finisher to blind on your way back into the fight. The main solution that I definitely don’t want is an “auto return” function built into the power. I believe that spamming 3 should get you as far from melee as possible, as fast as possible.

babazhook.6805:

I will continue to disagree..

You suggested that Arc a weaker version of Withdraw. It i not that at all. You can not compare a heal to a weapon skill. There are only three weapon skills in the entire game that break IMMOB and Arc is by far the best.

Withdraw is not something people want to waste just to break an Immob. You want to use it when you need a heal.

Withdraw does not do damage to multiple enemies as one pulls back while Arc does.

Withdraw AND those other Immob breaks all have cooldowns. One can use Arc to break Three Immobs in a row. Nothing else can do this.

Arc also inflicts crippled and has an evade built in which those other weapon immob breakers do not.

Now even with that evade this is why I want to pull back when using Arc.

When Immobed in game this generally followed up by AOE attacks by an enemy or group of the same. It is followed by a hundred blades or a eviscerate or a fire grab or phoenix from an ele. Staying in place and relying on the evade to avoid all that is not enough. I want to get out and avoid what they might have built up for me and then reset my attack sequence with a bounding dodge right into the thick of things.

In the beta the skill did these very things. It also stepped me out of traps being set where I stood . I want that gap opener. While DD is supposed to make it easier for us to fight in melee we still can not fight like warriors or guardians. Our armor is not higher. Our health is not higher. We still have to use some measure of in and out. The set already has a number of in the thick of things attack type skills. I think this added mobility even as it takes you out of battle is something that will be needed.

The point of what were saying has nothing to do with it being better or worse than Withdraw. That was just a side point for reference and comparison; The point is it’s the exact same thing as withdraw with some added minor damage and a cripple and it’s a weapon skill that moves you out of melee range.

The immobilize removal is minuscule compared to the TOTAL cost of the ability and the lack of synergy it provides with the rest of the weapon. It is the only weapons skill #3 ability that completely removes you from being able to do consistent damage and maintain pressure on your target. That in and of itself is a HUGE disadvantage and cost in terms of being a Melee damage dealer.

Also there are ways to make the ability still break an immobilize and maintain pressure on the target. That would be the ideal fix on this ability; do everything it does now but MAINTAIN MELEE RANGE. Or maybe add an immobilize break to Weakening Charge, the possibilities are endless.

Bllade.1029:

babazhook.6805:

I will continue to disagree..

You suggested that Arc a weaker version of Withdraw. It i not that at all. You can not compare a heal to a weapon skill. There are only three weapon skills in the entire game that break IMMOB and Arc is by far the best.

Withdraw is not something people want to waste just to break an Immob. You want to use it when you need a heal.

Withdraw does not do damage to multiple enemies as one pulls back while Arc does.

Withdraw AND those other Immob breaks all have cooldowns. One can use Arc to break Three Immobs in a row. Nothing else can do this.

Arc also inflicts crippled and has an evade built in which those other weapon immob breakers do not.

Now even with that evade this is why I want to pull back when using Arc.

When Immobed in game this generally followed up by AOE attacks by an enemy or group of the same. It is followed by a hundred blades or a eviscerate or a fire grab or phoenix from an ele. Staying in place and relying on the evade to avoid all that is not enough. I want to get out and avoid what they might have built up for me and then reset my attack sequence with a bounding dodge right into the thick of things.

In the beta the skill did these very things. It also stepped me out of traps being set where I stood . I want that gap opener. While DD is supposed to make it easier for us to fight in melee we still can not fight like warriors or guardians. Our armor is not higher. Our health is not higher. We still have to use some measure of in and out. The set already has a number of in the thick of things attack type skills. I think this added mobility even as it takes you out of battle is something that will be needed.

You’re missing the entire point of what were saying, it has nothing to do with it being better or worse than Withdraw. That was just a side point for reference and comparison; The point is it’s the exact same thing as withdraw with some added minor damage and a cripple and it’s a weapon skill that moves you out of melee range.

The immobilize removal is minuscule compared to the TOTAL cost of the ability and the lack of synergy it provides with the rest of the weapon. It is the only weapons skill #3 ability that completely removes you from being able to do damage and maintain pressure on your target. That in and of itself is a HUGE disadvantage and cost in terms of being a Melee damage dealer.

Also there are ways to make the ability still break an immobilize and maintain pressure on the target. That would be the ideal fix on this ability; do everything it does now but MAINTAIN MELEE RANGE.

You are missing the point. I played with this extensively. I do not want to maintain melee range when using this skill. I want to get out and back in. Why on Earth would I want to maintain melee range? I was using it to break out of immobs and then escape the AOE stuff planted under me or the incoming that the evade portion will just not handle.

I do not want to waste a dodge if I need to avoid an attack or AOE as the dodge will very likely pull me AWAY from the opponent and the damage wasted. t Use arc pull out..use Dodge back towards the enemy.Damage is avoided going out damage is avoided going in. Damage is done going out damage is done going in. It takes all of 3/4s of a second to dodge back IN to the battle as you do damage.

Dodges are going to be used to do damage and wasting them to get away from an attack and away from an enemy is not an efficient use of them.

And you claim no one comparing it to withdraw and then follow by saying it exactly the same . It is not the same. Stop mentioning withdraw. it has no bearing on arc. One is a weapon skill one is a heal/ they have nothing to do with one another.

S/d is also a melee weaponset. it too has a skill that pulls you out of battle. That helps to make it work. You burn Ini to step TO the foe. You burn INI to break away as you clear a condition. How is this functionally different from Arc? How were people able to not only use it but thrive on it when it took them out of combat?

And before you respond with S/d has a shadowstep TO the target we have vault and we have the new dodge , vault costing INI just as infiltrators strike and dodge using bounding dodger (or dash) costing No ini.

There are reasons peopel immobilize an enemy. It generally to set up for a big attack that has a longer cast time and will come a second or two later OR to coordinate such an attack form multiple people on a single immobilized target. I want to break That Immob and get out of range of what is to come and not just stand there fot the sake of staying in melee to have it all hit me at once and if that enemy now has skills on cooldown because they hit where I was supposed to be and then wasn’t than all the better.

I am really glad there’s a lot of people in this thread asking for better (more martial arts-based) animations, because that was the one thing that really, really bugged me about the daredevil.

I hope Anet listens. The auto-attack is just awful.

babazhook.6805:

Why on Earth would I want to maintain melee range?

Staff is a melee weapon. That’s how it does damage. Auto-attack being its primary source of damage.

babazhook.6805:

I do not want to waste a dodge

Initiative is a much more difficult resource to come by than endurance as a Staff DD.

babazhook.6805:

if I need to avoid an attack or AOE as the dodge will very likely pull me AWAY from the opponent and the damage wasted.

You can choose the direction in which you dodge, you don’t get to choose the direction in which you roll with staff 3.

babazhook.6805:

Dodges are going to be used to do damage and wasting them to get away from an attack and away from an enemy is not an efficient use of them.

This goes back to you can choose the direction you dodge. You can evade AoE while still applying pressure to your target.

babazhook.6805:

It is not the same. Stop mentioning withdraw. it has no bearing on arc. One is a weapon skill one is a heal/ they have nothing to do with one another.

Debilitating Arc: Strike enemies in front of you, roll backward and evade, breaking immobilizing effects.

Withdrawl: Roll backward while healing and evade attacks. Cures immobilized, chilled, and crippled.

Youtube the animations.

One costs 18 seconds, the other one costs 25% of your initiative plus whatever you use to close the gap again. Which you’ll have to do, unless you plan on retreating or swapping to a ranged weapon. Were trying to promote staff synergy, not rely on weapon swaps to make up for it’s pitfalls.

babazhook.6805:

S/d is also a melee weaponset. it too has a skill that pulls you out of battle.

Which is the #2 skill not the #3 skill. Debilitating Arc is the #3 Skill on Staff.

babazhook.6805:

How is this functionally different from Arc?

Because Debilitating Arc is not the #2 gap closer most Thief weapons have. It’s the #3 Defensive ability that unlike all of the other #3 defensive abilities removes you from the range in which you can do damage. That range will cost you more to close it again.

Here are some #3 Weapon Skill references:

Death Blossom: Evades while stacking bleeds and dealing damage in an AoE area – Still maintains pressure while evading. 4 Initiative.

Shortbow: Disabling Shot – Cripples with an evade at range (This is essentially what the staff is doing for us right now) but the Shortbow is ranged damage. Maintains Pressure – 4 Initiative

Pistol Whip: Stun followed up with high DPS while evading – Maintains Pressure – 5 initiative

Shadow Strike: Apply torment, shadow step away from your enemy (600 range) and deal damage. P/D is RANGED DAMAGE Maintains pressure 4 initiative.

Shadow Shot: Fire an UNBLOCKABLE blinding shot at your foe, then shadowstep to them for a dagger strike. Gap closer, maintains pressure 4 initiative.

Debilitating Arc: Minor damage, cripple, evade, immobilize removal. – Lose pressure – 4 Initiative

Critical Strikes, Deadly Arts, and Trickery all have damage modifiers. Daredevil does not have a damage modifier. For this reason, it is unlikely that we will see Daredevil become a staple specialization in PvE. That makes me sad. I would like to see my main class get an amazing elite specialization which will prove useful in each of the three game types. I think everyone wants that, regardless of which class they prefer.

To be fair, it will be a lot easier to do Jumping puzzles and map completion with this thief spec, but jumping puzzles and map completion aren’t what the end game is all about.

Bllade.1029:

babazhook.6805:

Why on Earth would I want to maintain melee range?

Staff is a melee weapon. That’s how it does damage. Auto-attack being its primary source of damage.

babazhook.6805:

I do not want to waste a dodge

Initiative is a much more difficult resource to come by than endurance as a Staff DD.

babazhook.6805:

if I need to avoid an attack or AOE as the dodge will very likely pull me AWAY from the opponent and the damage wasted.

You can choose the direction in which you dodge, you don’t get to choose the direction in which you roll with staff 3.

babazhook.6805:

Dodges are going to be used to do damage and wasting them to get away from an attack and away from an enemy is not an efficient use of them.

This goes back to you can choose the direction you dodge. You can evade AoE while still applying pressure to your target.

babazhook.6805:

It is not the same. Stop mentioning withdraw. it has no bearing on arc. One is a weapon skill one is a heal/ they have nothing to do with one another.

Debilitating Arc: Strike enemies in front of you, roll backward and evade, breaking immobilizing effects.

Withdrawl: Roll backward while healing and evade attacks. Cures immobilized, chilled, and crippled.

Youtube the animations.

One costs 18 seconds, the other one costs 25% of your initiative plus whatever you use to close the gap again. Which you’ll have to do, unless you plan on retreating or swapping to a ranged weapon. Were trying to promote staff synergy, not rely on weapon swaps to make up for it’s pitfalls.

babazhook.6805:

S/d is also a melee weaponset. it too has a skill that pulls you out of battle.

Which is the #2 skill not the #3 skill. Debilitating Arc is the #3 Skill on Staff.

babazhook.6805:

How is this functionally different from Arc?

Because Debilitating Arc is not the #2 gap closer most Thief weapons have. It’s the #3 Defensive ability that unlike all of the other #3 defensive abilities removes you from the range in which you can do damage. That range will cost you more to close it again.

Here are some #3 Weapon Skill references:

Death Blossom: Evades while stacking bleeds and dealing damage in an AoE area – Still maintains pressure while evading. 4 Initiative.

Shortbow: Disabling Shot – Cripples with an evade at range (This is essentially what the staff is doing for us right now) but the Shortbow is ranged damage. Maintains Pressure – 4 Initiative

Pistol Whip: Stun followed up with high DPS while evading – Maintains Pressure – 5 initiative

Shadow Strike: Apply torment, shadow step away from your enemy (600 range) and deal damage. P/D is RANGED DAMAGE Maintains pressure 4 initiative.

Debilitating Arc: Minor damage, cripple, evade, immobilize removal. – Lose pressure – 4 Initiative

1> That skills are number three skills is immaterial. You are really grasping at straws in arguing this point. Shadow strike does not remove a condition it inflicts one. P/P just does an unload and does nothing else. Maintain pressure is not a function of dual wield skills just because you say it is.

2>I do not think you could have used Bounding dodger a lot in the beta. There a reason so many asked for the damage to occur before the dodge and that is because the AOE effect so small. That is dodging side to side or backwards pulls you away form the enemy and the AOE of the damage. it better to dodge INTO an enemy. If i am trying to avoid AOE attack launched by an enemy I am not going to dodge into him.

3>I had no problems maintainin pressure using #3 in Beta. If I got Immobolized and there An AOE layed at my feet or a phoenic about to drop on me I used number three which did 4 separate things for the cost of 4 INI. It broke the Immob. It damaged the enemy. it crippled the enemy. it gave an evade. It pulled me out of that AOE or potential incoming attack.

If the evade kicked in It gave me health. It gave me Vigor. it gave me 1 ini meaning it cost all of 3 ini. This is comparable to and has more utility than many of the other #3 skills.

4>Ini is more precious than endurance is why I use DODGE to get back into the battle and inflict damage. You are not spending less INI just because you stayed in battle after using #3. by staying in battle for an extra 3/4s of a second you may have got off one more attack. You likely took more damage in that same period and significantly more. The purpose of dodges in DD line is both to evade attack and maintain pressure on an enemy.

5> I asked why I would want to stay in battle after removing an Immob and you said it because staff a melee weapon. one more time s/d is a melee weapon and people managed that well enough. That one uses a #2 skill and one a #3 is not pertinent when making this argument.

I Forgot.1684:

Critical Strikes, Deadly Arts, and Trickery all have damage modifiers. Daredevil does not have a damage modifier. For this reason, it is unlikely that we will see Daredevil become a staple specialization in PvE. That makes me sad. I would like to see my main class get an amazing elite specialization which will prove useful in each of the three game types. I think everyone wants that, regardless of which class they prefer.

To be fair, it will be a lot easier to do Jumping puzzles and map completion with this thief spec, but jumping puzzles and map completion aren’t what the end game is all about.

Evasive empowerment exists in the DD line. it a 10 percent modifier. the trick is getting an evade off so as to have it kick in. All opf those other modifiers have ’conditions" some easier to obtain and others more difficult.

there also a 10 percent modifier to staff damageif you trait for staff mastery.

Time will tell just how often we can have Evasive empowerment up but in theory you can get a staff to hit 20 percent harder just with that one traitline. Throw DA in the mix with executioner and there the potential of 50 percent more damage if conditions right.

Vault hurts.

babazhook.6805:

Maintain pressure is not a function of dual wield skills just because you say it is.

You’re right, it’s the function of a Thief. And as a Thief that is your job, applying pressure constantly and doing a massive amount of damage. An ability that costs you initiative to hinder that, is not an ability that should be on a thief WEAPON. If this were a utility, heal or if this ability kept you in melee range so you wouldn’t have to follow up with another resource consumptive ability or even gave some sort of additional benefit other than an evade and one condition removal this wouldn’t be an issue.

Cost/Benefit ratio here is off. There are much better alternatives available to the Thief that give the same benefit and are far less costly and not as permanent as a weapons skill. Also, notice that Thief weapons follow a certain trend; The #2 ability on most thief weapons offer some sort of gap closer and/or damage.

There is also a trend for all of the #3 skills that Thieves have access to; Some sort of defensive/offensive oriented ability. The difference is, if you want to follow this trend which is exactly what I think the staff is modeled after to begin with; all of those abilities allow you to stay on your target one way or another and do not require an additional ability to move back into range.

Staff 3 does.

I hope you’re having as much fun with this debate as I am, I think this is a great discussion.

Something I mentioned in the feedback thread that I forgot to mention here. Bounding Dodger should apply damage at the beginning and end. It’s not likely that both will hit, but it would help in team fights against multiple targets as well as being a strong 1v1 skill. This would allow the GM trait to be used both offensively and defensively.