Guild Wars 2

With the balance patch fast approaching tomorrow, I want to address the issue with backstab.

Backstab:
requires,
1. stealth
2. hitting behind or side for maximum damage
3. not being revealed
4. only once every 3 seconds max
806(2.4) damage

Vault.
5 initiative
879(2.25)

Backstab needs a major buff. I think vault is fine as it is, maybe should cost 6 initiative but vault should not be nerfed to be on backstab or slightly less level, backstab should be buffed to be slightly ahead.

Thief was meant to be a shadow class, get in, get out high damage.
Lets bring that back with a starting change by having backstab hit a lot harder.

A very neat way they could buff bs damage but not make it ‘zomg op oneshot’ is to give it armor penetration.
So it would become ‘hit your foe from the shadows striking for double damage if you hit from behind. This attack ignores 15% of your foes armor’. This way it would not be that much of a damage buff against targets that did not build additional toughness in to the build, but it would be noticeable against bunkers.

Also vault should cost 6 initiative, like every other terrestrial weapon skill 5.

I think vault should cost 8 initiative because it deals damage as against Infiltrator’s Arrow! Even 6 ini is too OP!

Either backstab is too weak or vault too strong. Fully agree buffing backstab, which is single target not aoe, and has limited time to hit, plus vault has leap.

REGGADO.1237:

plus vault has leap.

And an evade

fumcheg.1936:

I think vault should cost 8 initiative because it deals damage as against Infiltrator’s Arrow! Even 6 ini is too OP!

8?
Okay.
Go away please.

Maybe reduce Infiltrator’s Arrow Ini cost to 4 then? Good deal?

For real though, I think backstab could use something but not a damage buff, I don’t like to see too many nuke abilities in any game generally.
It could steal a boon (and maybe deal extra dmg if no boon is stolen?), penetrate armor as stated above, steal health, apply some stacks of decent-duration-vulnerability (long enough to land at least another BS in that time, indirect dmg buff), have a slightly higher range or whatever.
Ah and as Backstab is tied to D/P or D/D (and I think D/P as a weapon set is totally fine), C&D could use an Ini reduce to 5 and/or a short (1-2s) small radius blind or something around there, while overworking SA.

Vault is hardly “too strong”. It can dish out good damage but is telgraphed and avoided and easily countered by laying down AOE , traps and the like to where the person will vault to.

Backstab should get a blind when using CnD , CnD ini should be lowered by one and either the backstab made unblockable or another effect added (1/4 second daze , theft of a boon , condition transferred , 2 seconds of haste or superspeed added and so on)

Vault is fine as it has big wind up and is often difficult to land… lets not take a working thief skill and start advocating another nerf.

Backstab is actually in a decent place with D/P just not D/D. CnD is too heavy, slow and high risk. CnD doesn’t need much of an adjustment but some could elevate D/D.

Vault needs a nerf and backstab might need a buff.

Vault is not “hard to land” and being able to spam 10k AOE damage back to back is a bit much especially since it requires ZERO setup compared to backstab.

EvilSardine.9635:

Vault needs a nerf and backstab might need a buff.

Vault is not “hard to land” and being able to spam 10k AOE damage back to back is a bit much especially since it requires ZERO setup compared to backstab.

Don’t propose a nerf to a skill when comparing it to another skill that has been nerfed to uselessness. That’s simply irresponsible.

Rather buff the other skills back to usefulness.

When people say Vault is strong I just say “Headshot.”

I don’t like vault at all. It turned a skilled precision and timing based class into spammy aoe that any dummy can pull off. Combine that with bounding dodger spam and it’s just dumbed down to nothing.

Menem.4307:

I don’t like vault at all. It turned a skilled precision and timing based class into spammy aoe that any dummy can pull off. Combine that with bounding dodger spam and it’s just dumbed down to nothing.

Well they successfully made the Cloak and Dagger Thief theme into a Gummi Bears spammy jumpy theme. Great isn’t it….

God i hate staff and the whole gameplay around it -.-

OP’s incorrect in that Vault’s damage is actually riding a 2.5 coefficient. It does strictly more damage than backstab as well.

Edit: Nvm, they fixed it no longer dealing 2.52

Please add a few skills and their coefficients from other classes as well. Since stated like this some not so smart person capable of changing these things might think it’s best to once again nerf a thief skill..

and then there is true shot… on 4 sec CD, 1200 range, pierces, damage: 665 coeff: 2.66… costs: 0
-_-

i think backstab should become like ragnarok ice pick an scale in dmg based on your target armor.

Is this a serious post?

Vault takes a lot more effort and skill to land than backstab anyday.

If you want to make D/D better though, what you should fix is C&D.

Staff has A LOT of problems as is.

Ok it is more telegraphed skill than bs, but be real here it is a evade a leap that moves you 600 distance and a aoe. There is a reason why most daredevils just spam this skill when on staff, not that spamming it is a good strategy.

Is this a serious post?

Vault takes a lot more effort and skill to land than backstab anyday.

foste.3098:

Ok it is more telegraphed skill than bs, but be real here it is a evade a leap that moves you 600 distance and a aoe. There is a reason why most daredevils just spam this skill when on staff, not that spamming it is a good strategy.

Is this a serious post?

Vault takes a lot more effort and skill to land than backstab anyday.

Yea…there’s a reason they spam that skill: they’re bad.

Not to mention majority of the other skills on staff are not worth wasting initiative on.

…but it’s okay though, you can get thief nerfed all you want. It’ll only make my life even easier in shutting them down in seconds.

Silverbolt.2301:

If you want to make D/D better though, what you should fix is C&D.

Backstab has nothing to do with CnD since CnD is just one of many ways to go in stealth. Fixing CnD will not fix backstab if you’re not using D/D.

To be fair, Shadow Shot is the best use of initiative on D/P, and the success of D/D depends almost solely on CnD, otherwise it does worse damage and is less reliable while offering lower defenses and utility than D/P.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Silverbolt.2301:

If you want to make D/D better though, what you should fix is C&D.

Backstab has nothing to do with CnD since CnD is just one of many ways to go in stealth. Fixing CnD will not fix backstab if you’re not using D/D.

That’s because there’s nothing to fix on BS.

If you give a kitten about your class, you should be asking for and suggesting meaningful changes. Not nonsense like buffs to BS.

Silverbolt.2301:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Silverbolt.2301:

If you want to make D/D better though, what you should fix is C&D.

Backstab has nothing to do with CnD since CnD is just one of many ways to go in stealth. Fixing CnD will not fix backstab if you’re not using D/D.

That’s because there’s nothing to fix on BS.

If you give a kitten about your class, you should be asking for and suggesting meaningful changes. Not nonsense like buffs to BS.

It’s not nonsense at all. BS has been the same since release while other parts of the game received power creeps.

BS should ignore armor and should be unblockable.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Silverbolt.2301:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Silverbolt.2301:

If you want to make D/D better though, what you should fix is C&D.

Backstab has nothing to do with CnD since CnD is just one of many ways to go in stealth. Fixing CnD will not fix backstab if you’re not using D/D.

That’s because there’s nothing to fix on BS.

If you give a kitten about your class, you should be asking for and suggesting meaningful changes. Not nonsense like buffs to BS.

It’s not nonsense at all. BS has been the same since release while other parts of the game received power creeps.

BS should ignore armor and should be unblockable.

Just because the balance team failed at balancing and caused a massive power creep, does NOT mean the solution to that is more power creep.

Taobella.6597:

i think backstab should become like ragnarok ice pick an scale in dmg based on your target armor.

I love that game!

Silverbolt.2301:

Is this a serious post?

Vault takes a lot more effort and skill to land than backstab anyday.

If you want to make D/D better though, what you should fix is C&D.

Staff has A LOT of problems as is.

This guy…

The problem isn’t backstab, it’s the surrounding skills and traits. Backstab, or rather D/X in general is balanced against the utilities on the offhand. D/P offers stealth, interrupts, gap closers, and blinds. D/D isn’t doing well because of /D. It’s supposed to be the burst set, but has a mismatched #3 and a weak #4&5. Staff isn’t balanced against multiple offhands. Its auto lacks the poison or inherent endurance regen of dagger. #2-4 are all situational, and #5 is the burst skill. It doesn’t need to be nerfed simply because it’s semi functional.

Backstab doesn’t need more damage or utility, the other skills around it need to be fixed so the sets aren’t reliant on stealth. The ranges of the heartseeker multipliers could be returned to their original values for instance. CnD could have its multiplier brought back up to 1.5 and it could blind. Dancing Dagger could use a shadowstep so D/D could actually chase better. The shadow arts and acro lines could be retuned.

And as a general guideline, just because one of our sets works and the other doesn’t, doesn’t mean we need to keep nerfing sets until we have no usable ones. It’s not like the staff is wrecking every challenger; it’s doing alright.

I think backstab definitely needs a buff, considering how much damage Guardian’s true shot does

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Silverbolt.2301:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Silverbolt.2301:

If you want to make D/D better though, what you should fix is C&D.

Backstab has nothing to do with CnD since CnD is just one of many ways to go in stealth. Fixing CnD will not fix backstab if you’re not using D/D.

That’s because there’s nothing to fix on BS.

If you give a kitten about your class, you should be asking for and suggesting meaningful changes. Not nonsense like buffs to BS.

It’s not nonsense at all. BS has been the same since release while other parts of the game received power creeps.

BS should ignore armor and should be unblockable.

LOL

You do realize this would cause the skill to deal an upwards of 40 million damage at times, right?

Yea, no. Maug has it right in that stab is fine. The rest of the skills surrounding it need work, though, primarily OH dagger. It’s more of a trait issue than anything and the rest of the game getting a lot of power creep that’s hopefully balanced out tomorrow or in the near future.

foste.3098:

A very neat way they could buff bs damage but not make it ‘zomg op oneshot’ is to give it armor penetration.
So it would become ‘hit your foe from the shadows striking for double damage if you hit from behind. This attack ignores 15% of your foes armor’. This way it would not be that much of a damage buff against targets that did not build additional toughness in to the build, but it would be noticeable against bunkers.

Also vault should cost 6 initiative, like every other terrestrial weapon skill 5.

I really like your armor ignore suggestion.

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Silverbolt.2301:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Silverbolt.2301:

If you want to make D/D better though, what you should fix is C&D.

Backstab has nothing to do with CnD since CnD is just one of many ways to go in stealth. Fixing CnD will not fix backstab if you’re not using D/D.

That’s because there’s nothing to fix on BS.

If you give a kitten about your class, you should be asking for and suggesting meaningful changes. Not nonsense like buffs to BS.

It’s not nonsense at all. BS has been the same since release while other parts of the game received power creeps.

BS should ignore armor and should be unblockable.

LOL

You do realize this would cause the skill to deal an upwards of 40 million damage at times, right?

Yea, no. Maug has it right in that stab is fine. The rest of the skills surrounding it need work, though, primarily OH dagger. It’s more of a trait issue than anything and the rest of the game getting a lot of power creep that’s hopefully balanced out tomorrow or in the near future.

When I said ignore armor it doesn’t necessarily mean ignore 100% armor. The actual amount can be tweaked based on the current meta. With too many bunkers everywhere, who can also deal insane amount of damage, Thief needs this.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Silverbolt.2301:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Silverbolt.2301:

If you want to make D/D better though, what you should fix is C&D.

Backstab has nothing to do with CnD since CnD is just one of many ways to go in stealth. Fixing CnD will not fix backstab if you’re not using D/D.

That’s because there’s nothing to fix on BS.

If you give a kitten about your class, you should be asking for and suggesting meaningful changes. Not nonsense like buffs to BS.

It’s not nonsense at all. BS has been the same since release while other parts of the game received power creeps.

BS should ignore armor and should be unblockable.

LOL

You do realize this would cause the skill to deal an upwards of 40 million damage at times, right?

Yea, no. Maug has it right in that stab is fine. The rest of the skills surrounding it need work, though, primarily OH dagger. It’s more of a trait issue than anything and the rest of the game getting a lot of power creep that’s hopefully balanced out tomorrow or in the near future.

When I said ignore armor it doesn’t necessarily mean ignore 100% armor. The actual amount can be tweaked based on the current meta. With too many bunkers everywhere, who can also deal insane amount of damage, Thief needs this.

This is actually a good idea, allthough the argument “you are wearing paper for armor” wouldn’t work anymore.
But hey, it’s been a while since I heard even remotely legit “plz nerf thief” thingies~
The number could be tweaked around the HP – “Level” of the enemy.
Or it could be a skill that deals x% amount of dmg, while x is based on your critrate or something.

EvilSardine.9635:

Vault needs a nerf and backstab might need a buff.

Vault is not “hard to land” and being able to spam 10k AOE damage back to back is a bit much especially since it requires ZERO setup compared to backstab.

Posts like this one expose some real hypocrites in this thread. I have to laugh when D/D or D/P Thieves call Staff Thieves spammers…

Average D/D rotation: Steal+CnD > Backstab > Heartseeker > Heartseeker > Heartseeker and repeat until enemy is dead or you run out of ini. D/P can’t spam HS quite as much but you still see it.

It’s laughable when you see people talking about nerfing thief skills while there’s Reapers running around doing 15k hits every 2 seconds and DH’s with their OTT bow & trap combos… Give your heads a wobble, seriously.

Mostly nooby D/D thieves spam HS because it’s the most optimal damage source to do beyond the initial CnD + stab, and D/P is just as capable given sitting in stealth regenerating initiative for a few seconds, which most D/P players do anyways. Spamming Shadow Shot from the getgo is better damage and more reliable, anyways.

Vault spam is just dumb. There’s no reason for the skill do deal that much damage and cost strictly less initiative than the other “major hitting” ones, and a high-power vault isn’t an excuse for the rest of the kit to be as clunky as it is.

I’d also really like to see a reaper landing 15k’s every two seconds in skilled environments. 15k implies glass, and most of the reaper builds being played competitively don’t involve pure DPS, and 15k is only reachable post-skirmish against one with 25 might/vuln. I’ve found GD better as an enabler skill to force cooldowns rather than a finisher in PvP because nobody of reasonable skill lets you sit there next to them with that huge wind up and spam, and if you’re clustered fighting next to the guy it’s kinda your own fault for bringing multiple people to fight a class that scales when against multiple people.

Vault’s inhibiting the staff and the rest of the DD and thief in general from receiving love. I hate high-damage skill spam on no cooldowns because it is for this reason we get nerfed.

Remember, CnD + backstab have been nerfed SEVERAL times. Now the new stronger meta is here those nerfs didn’t need to exist. Even they they were questionable, but you know ‘omg thief invisible, 10k backstab op, NERF PLOX’ decided otherwise.

Time for Anet to roll back the nerfs (wich they won’t do, they showed this kinda of irresponsibility to many times already, a nerf that was a mistake, they will never reset again to old status, cause that would be admitting a mistake – wich is a good sign of yoru personality – but they won’t. To scared I guess).

DeceiverX.8361:

Mostly nooby D/D thieves spam HS because it’s the most optimal damage source to do beyond the initial CnD + stab, and D/P is just as capable given sitting in stealth regenerating initiative for a few seconds, which most D/P players do anyways. Spamming Shadow Shot from the getgo is better damage and more reliable, anyways.

Vault spam is just dumb. There’s no reason for the skill do deal that much damage and cost strictly less initiative than the other “major hitting” ones, and a high-power vault isn’t an excuse for the rest of the kit to be as clunky as it is.

I’d also really like to see a reaper landing 15k’s every two seconds in skilled environments. 15k implies glass, and most of the reaper builds being played competitively don’t involve pure DPS, and 15k is only reachable post-skirmish against one with 25 might/vuln. I’ve found GD better as an enabler skill to force cooldowns rather than a finisher in PvP because nobody of reasonable skill lets you sit there next to them with that huge wind up and spam, and if you’re clustered fighting next to the guy it’s kinda your own fault for bringing multiple people to fight a class that scales when against multiple people.

Vault’s inhibiting the staff and the rest of the DD and thief in general from receiving love. I hate high-damage skill spam on no cooldowns because it is for this reason we get nerfed.

I really do not think you use staff. I use weakening strikes and the aa chain far more then vault. Vault is easily dodged and avoided.

as another pointed out people on d/p spam blinds. whats the deal?

sips hot tea

It’s more that they need to buff the other skills on Staff so people are far more likely to use those than Vault. But the others are so situational and #2 is missing an evasion frame it should probably have, so #5 is so much safer due to the evasion and leap finisher along with the damage. BS is fine too, it can still gank people easily. If you’re killing people easily with Vault in PvP or being killed easily yourself, they’re/you’re making how they’re/you’re going to move too obvious (or they’re/you’re not moving, like a fool).

Backstab (BS) is working quite well. Sure a player has to line it up but it doesn’t cost any initiative to drop a pretty big shot. It doesn’t proc a reveal on miss so IMO working pretty well. D/P works very well with this skill and enemies immediately go on edge when they see a thief do a Heart Seeker (HS) through a Black Powder (BP).

D/D is a hot mess since Cloak and Dagger (CnD) is hard to land without priming it via Steal and costs a lot of init. It is also painful when it misses, is blocked, lands on an invuln, etc. IMO CnD needs to have a substantially reduced cost when it misses.

Thinking Vault is OP is ridiculous. The only way that a player could think that it is OP has to be a scrub that doesn’t know how to effectively evade, block, etc. The skill has a big precast and oddly enough the evade doesn’t last through the landing of damage so it can be interrupted just as it lands. Against another Dare Devil, Vault is laughably hard to land since a Dare Devil has way more dodges than a player can spam Vault. It isn’t even close to the biggest hitter which belongs to Pistol Whip and that has an interrupt built into it.

I played the staff briefly. Vault’s damage is too oppressive as a DPS ability. Just need to expect what the opponent will be doing and it’s incredibly easy to land. Like using cloak and dagger on a stealthed enemy thief. Learn how to judge positioning and it makes matches easy. Built-in evades are icing and make it too safe.

DeceiverX.8361:

I played the staff briefly. Vault’s damage is too oppressive as a DPS ability. Just need to expect what the opponent will be doing and it’s incredibly easy to land. Like using cloak and dagger on a stealthed enemy thief. Learn how to judge positioning and it makes matches easy. Built-in evades are icing and make it too safe.

I hate to say L2P but this is really a L2P at least with Vault. As soon as the Vault starts, dodge, block, etc. It will never land when a player does that. Even if they predict exactly where the player is going it will be evaded, blocked, etc. Oddly enough I find Weakening Charge more deadly since it doesn’t have the long cast time, is way more spammable and applies Weakness on hit. It does take a bit of trickery with the camera to be extremely effective but I get way more “WTF” in game messages from that than Vault.

All of these pail in comparison to Pistol Whip which deals far more damage…. PW is a 1062 with a 3.3 multiplier AND has a stun AND evades AND costs the same as Vault. The weapon set even has more utility with a teleport, condi removal, BP for easy stomps.

Backstab is not the problem. Backstab in it’s current form is fine for the most part. This is why:

- It has a relatively low cooldown compared to other skills that do similar damage (cooldown based entirely on the Revealed debuff)
- It doesn’t have a cost for initiative and is based solely on being in stealth (which can cost a lot or absolutely nothing based on your build)
- It’s impossible to telegraph (compared to Vault which is extremely easily telegraphed)

You have to also realize that the very second any Thief gets a Dagger in the main-hand, their weapon set will ALWAYS allow a way to enter stealth from weapon skills alone, which is a major advantage compared to the Staff which can only enter stealth through utilities or other sources.

As for design, its design is fine. It’s a hard hitting move from behind and that is all it is meant to be. The only real issue I think most Thieves encounter is when they are in stealth and the target is kiting them or just moving around. Thieves are then forced to use a shadowstep ability to catch up.

A nice quality of life change would be to add a very modest shadowstep to Backstab.

foste.3098:

A very neat way they could buff bs damage but not make it ‘zomg op oneshot’ is to give it armor penetration.
So it would become ‘hit your foe from the shadows striking for double damage if you hit from behind. This attack ignores 15% of your foes armor’. This way it would not be that much of a damage buff against targets that did not build additional toughness in to the build, but it would be noticeable against bunkers.

Also vault should cost 6 initiative, like every other terrestrial weapon skill 5.

Actually armor penetration could be a really excellent idea for BS and thieves in general; the current meta seems to be leaning toward bunker/cele heavy comps with revs as dmg dealers, a nice change up to this would be giving a class like thief (warrior too for that matter) a way to get through some of this extra toughness/protection that seems to be more prevalent now. This would give bunker’ing on point a decent counter without making thieves into outright 1 shots for classes that dont have a lot of toughness, mixing up what I feel is going to be a stall meta if nothing is changed. Prime candidates would be Backstab, obviously, and maybe a new SA trait the allows you to ignore some toughness(and maybe protection?) when you come out of stealth so going in for a quick, well-timed burst on a bunker isn’t so useless.

Exitus.3297:

Backstab is not the problem. Backstab in it’s current form is fine for the most part. This is why:

- It has a relatively low cooldown compared to other skills that do similar damage (cooldown based entirely on the Revealed debuff)
- It doesn’t have a cost for initiative and is based solely on being in stealth (which can cost a lot or absolutely nothing based on your build)
- It’s impossible to telegraph (compared to Vault which is extremely easily telegraphed)

You have to also realize that the very second any Thief gets a Dagger in the main-hand, their weapon set will ALWAYS allow a way to enter stealth from weapon skills alone, which is a major advantage compared to the Staff which can only enter stealth through utilities or other sources.

As for design, its design is fine. It’s a hard hitting move from behind and that is all it is meant to be. The only real issue I think most Thieves encounter is when they are in stealth and the target is kiting them or just moving around. Thieves are then forced to use a shadowstep ability to catch up.

A nice quality of life change would be to add a very modest shadowstep to Backstab.

Hmm. I don’t know. When does stealth cost absolutley nothing? When you are getting stealth from your teammates or if you take fall damage (SA trait, which does cost some health tho)?

I find the small timeframes you have in stealth, make it pretty kitten hard to land backstabs infight, while evading AoE’s and stuff. Sure i can chain backstabs on a dummy, or a afk but i don’t think that is the point.

Some people here are talking like backstabs are easier to land than a telegraphed vault. That is straight up bullkitten, sorry guys. And the damage isnt that big either to be honest… But does backstab need a buff? I quite like the idea about “a modest shadowstep ability”, which may teleport you behind the player. 400 range?

Then again this is all dreaming, they won’t ever buff backstab in any thinkable way. Whatever.

Oh and why is withdraw still missing 10%?

BFMV.3198:

Thief was meant to be a shadow class, get in, get out high damage.
Lets bring that back with a starting change by having backstab hit a lot harder.

But daredevil is meant to jump around and evade a lot. Less stealth, more evade, less Shadow Arts, more Acrobatics.

I do think staff 5 does a bit too much damage, though, even if it’s much easier to avoid, it has quite the range, and it can be used quite more than it can be evaded, specially paired with additional sources of initiative gain. Not to mention it’s an evade itself.

Maybe its cost should be increased to 6 or 7.

We would not have these annoyances if weapon recharge had not been take out of the picture for thief weapons. If it simply had a very short recharge, something like 5seconds, Vault would be perfectly fine.

Would rather it be a +1 initiative cost for sequential reuse of the same skill within like a 3s window. Hell, it might fully justify baseline preparedness.

This way total spam is punishable but being resourceful if the optimal move is a repeated use is allowable and rewarded for good initiative management.

MithranArkanere.8957:

BFMV.3198:

Thief was meant to be a shadow class, get in, get out high damage.
Lets bring that back with a starting change by having backstab hit a lot harder.

But daredevil is meant to jump around and evade a lot. Less stealth, more evade, less Shadow Arts, more Acrobatics.

I do think staff 5 does a bit too much damage, though, even if it’s much easier to avoid, it has quite the range, and it can be used quite more than it can be evaded, specially paired with additional sources of initiative gain. Not to mention it’s an evade itself.

Maybe its cost should be increased to 6 or 7.

We would not have these annoyances if weapon recharge had not been take out of the picture for thief weapons. If it simply had a very short recharge, something like 5seconds, Vault would be perfectly fine.

Why? Why should the ini cost be increased? It is quite literally the ONLY decent hitting skill on the Staff. If you want Vault to be nerfed then they can kitten well nerf Heartseeker again then right? I mean why should the D/D or D/P sets get TWO high damaging skills when the Staff only has one… /sarc

Nerf Vault in any way, shape or form and it will make staff COMPLETELY worthless and it’s just about passable as things stand now lol.

It seems to me as though there’s quite a few kitten D/D & D/P thieves on this thread who came up against a Staff thief and got smacked around a bit, then came here to whine. Can’t you scrubs just be happy that we have something that’s finally half decent on one of our weapon sets?

Seriously…

Hitsuke.5304:

Why? Why should the ini cost be increased? It is quite literally the ONLY decent hitting skill on the Staff. If you want Vault to be nerfed then they can kitten well nerf Heartseeker again then right? I mean why should the D/D or D/P sets get TWO high damaging skills when the Staff only has one... /sarc

Nerf Vault in any way, shape or form and it will make staff COMPLETELY worthless and it’s just about passable as things stand now lol.

It seems to me as though there’s quite a few kitten D/D & D/P thieves on this thread who came up against a Staff thief and got smacked around a bit, then came here to whine. Can’t you scrubs just be happy that we have something that’s finally half decent on one of our weapon sets?

Seriously...

It’s nice that thief can pump out decent AoE damage. But the way it was given is bad. Spam one skill over and over, that does more damage than other skills that are single target, require positioning, are not evades, and require setting up to use? The risk vs. reward is unbalanced there, drastically.

You say with vault nerfed staff would be worthless? Well that’s a problem with staff as a whole, not one skill. One unbalanced or even broken aspect should not justify unbalancing or breaking something else. I hold the same opinion for true shot as well. Pierces up to 3 targets, 4s cool down, hits higher than back stab, 1.2k range. Unbalanced.

And for the poxy record, I have no trouble with staff thieves as D/P. There’s a frame during vault where they can be hit, and if 1v1, I just stealth a couple of times and wait while they blow everything trying to hit me and not get hit themselves, then attack when they’re low on resources, and usually right after stealth wears off so I don’t get reveal.

Hitsuke.5304:

MithranArkanere.8957:

BFMV.3198:

Thief was meant to be a shadow class, get in, get out high damage.
Lets bring that back with a starting change by having backstab hit a lot harder.

But daredevil is meant to jump around and evade a lot. Less stealth, more evade, less Shadow Arts, more Acrobatics.

I do think staff 5 does a bit too much damage, though, even if it’s much easier to avoid, it has quite the range, and it can be used quite more than it can be evaded, specially paired with additional sources of initiative gain. Not to mention it’s an evade itself.

Maybe its cost should be increased to 6 or 7.

We would not have these annoyances if weapon recharge had not been take out of the picture for thief weapons. If it simply had a very short recharge, something like 5seconds, Vault would be perfectly fine.

Why? Why should the ini cost be increased? It is quite literally the ONLY decent hitting skill on the Staff. If you want Vault to be nerfed then they can kitten well nerf Heartseeker again then right? I mean why should the D/D or D/P sets get TWO high damaging skills when the Staff only has one… /sarc

Nerf Vault in any way, shape or form and it will make staff COMPLETELY worthless and it’s just about passable as things stand now lol.

It seems to me as though there’s quite a few kitten D/D & D/P thieves on this thread who came up against a Staff thief and got smacked around a bit, then came here to whine. Can’t you scrubs just be happy that we have something that’s finally half decent on one of our weapon sets?

Seriously…

Well said. The argument against Vault is more of one of people not liking a particular fighting style then it being OP. D/P has ruled the roost for some time with blind spam and some are simply too attached to it as king of the roost.

As to vault itself I have taken all of my classes in to fight in WvW and faced a number of thieves that use staff. It is not a hard attack to avoid . You do not even have to use a dodge or block to do so of which many classes have an ample supply. You can walk out of the landing area and the thief will burn that INI.

Vault works best when the enemy distracted or CC’d with an immob or some such but this the same as virtually every other hard hitting skill. In gameplay with Vault I doubt more then 1 in three of those vaults hit any target with a person spamming the skill.

DeceiverX.8361:

I played the staff briefly. Vault’s damage is too oppressive as a DPS ability. Just need to expect what the opponent will be doing and it’s incredibly easy to land. Like using cloak and dagger on a stealthed enemy thief. Learn how to judge positioning and it makes matches easy. Built-in evades are icing and make it too safe.

Not sure I believe you.

Impact.2780:

It’s nice that thief can pump out decent AoE damage. But the way it was given is bad. Spam one skill over and over, that does more damage than other skills that are single target, require positioning, are not evades, and require setting up to use? The risk vs. reward is unbalanced there, drastically.

You say with vault nerfed staff would be worthless? Well that’s a problem with staff as a whole, not one skill. One unbalanced or even broken aspect should not justify unbalancing or breaking something else. I hold the same opinion for true shot as well. Pierces up to 3 targets, 4s cool down, hits higher than back stab, 1.2k range. Unbalanced.

And for the poxy record, I have no trouble with staff thieves as D/P. There’s a frame during vault where they can be hit, and if 1v1, I just stealth a couple of times and wait while they blow everything trying to hit me and not get hit themselves, then attack when they’re low on resources, and usually right after stealth wears off so I don’t get reveal.

So you admit that without Vault being strong, that staff would be worthless!?!? So how would increasing the ini cost or lowering the damage help in any way at all? All it would do is give the thief yet ANOTHER redundant weapon set. The weapon probably does need a balance pass with some animations being cleaned up (after animations and an evade frame added to S2) and the damage being spread out a bit amongst the skills.

I’m just baffled by the entire stupid concept of nerfing yet another thief skill because dagger users want Backstab to be the creme de la creme of thief damage skills…