Guild Wars 2

After reading all of the complaints from players getting killed by the thief usual combo of steal, C+D, and backstab, followed by heart seeker for the last 4 months. I just wanted to post this saying that if changes are made to this combo, I feel that changes should be specific to the weapon set causing issues. D/D is where the issue is with that burst set up, but if you just nerf Mug, It is going to weaken other specs that use that ability to supplement some damage. I personally use mug on my sword dagger set to assist in bursting, mug in the middle of flanking strike can add some decent burst, and I know other sets that use mug to supplement damage.

Anyone else have input on this?

I think,that you are the first and only S/D player,who prefers C&D to be nerfed instead of Mug….

ZLE.8293:

I think,that you are the first and only S/D player,who prefers C&D to be nerfed instead of Mug….

This is mostly because Mug is pretty much only awesome when paired with a huge damage opener like the oft-discussed C&D→Steal→Backstab ambush, whereas C&D is vital to a ton of thief builds and tactics. Trying to nerf the backstab opener by nerfing C&D is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Tulisin.6945:

ZLE.8293:

I think,that you are the first and only S/D player,who prefers C&D to be nerfed instead of Mug….

This is mostly because Mug is pretty much only awesome when paired with a huge damage opener like the oft-discussed C&D->Steal->Backstab ambush, whereas C&D is vital to a ton of thief builds and tactics. Trying to nerf the backstab opener by nerfing C&D is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I kinda knew that,i was merely trying to hint the dude,to reconsider his opinion :P

ZLE.8293:

I think,that you are the first and only S/D player,who prefers C&D to be nerfed instead of Mug….

Wait wait, I didn’t say anything about nerfing cloak and dagger. I said if they make future changes, please be wary of what they change, and the effects it has in other builds, like mug, and not nerfing a trait that is used in other places than just the FoTM spec causing problems. I meant change the weapons with issues, so bring down the damage of backstab, that way it only directly effects the cheese build being used.

BlueprintLFE.2358:

ZLE.8293:

I think,that you are the first and only S/D player,who prefers C&D to be nerfed instead of Mug….

Wait wait, I didn’t say anything about nerfing cloak and dagger. I said if they make future changes, please be wary of what they change, and the effects it has in other builds, like mug, and not needing a trait that is used in other places than just the FoTM spec causing problems.

Your point is mostly that Backstab itself should be changed, as opposed to C&D or Mug, and I agree.

Tulisin.6945:

Your point is mostly that Backstab itself should be changed, as opposed to C&D or Mug, and I agree.

Which should have been done originally instead of the change to CnD which dispropotionately affected the damage output of the other classes using dagger offhand (at least in sPvP).

If the damage of mug is nerfed too much the trait becomes worthless. Steal can be used once every ~40 seconds and it’s damage isn’t amazing considering the cooldown and the fact it takes up a trait slot. It’s only real use is as a way to increase burst damage.

The CnD+mug+backstab combo deals a lot of damage in a short time, but the actual attacks themselves are fine. Getting killed by the combo is a L2P issue imo, and I think A-net shares this view when they nerfed CnD rather than backstab. Mug and CnD are practically unavoidable unless you see it coming but there is enough time to counter the backstab portion of the chain.

In a sPvP environment I have no problem dealing with these GC thief builds and find it hard to understand why there is so much QQing over them. Just slot a utility skill to counter this combo and they’re a free kill most of the time. If my escape tools are on cooldown, they will take me out quickly, but this would occur with any burst build with some CC such as 100b frenzy warriors or shatter mesmers.

Alex.6940:

If the damage of mug is nerfed too much the trait becomes worthless. Steal can be used once every ~40 seconds and it’s damage isn’t amazing considering the cooldown and the fact it takes up a trait slot. It’s only real use is as a way to increase burst damage.

The CnD+mug+backstab combo deals a lot of damage in a short time, but the actual attacks themselves are fine. Getting killed by the combo is a L2P issue imo, and I think A-net shares this view when they nerfed CnD rather than backstab. Mug and CnD are practically unavoidable unless you see it coming but there is enough time to counter the backstab portion of the chain.

In a sPvP environment I have no problem dealing with these GC thief builds and find it hard to understand why there is so much QQing over them. Just slot a utility skill to counter this combo and they’re a free kill most of the time. If my escape tools are on cooldown, they will take me out quickly, but this would occur with any burst build with some CC such as 100b frenzy warriors or shatter mesmers.

Agreed, GC are pretty easy to deal with in sPvP, the difficulty now comes with trying to take down a true bunker using S/D. Real damage output in that class has been reduced to the autoattack chain with the nerf to dancing dagger and CnD.

I don’t understand why people argue about, or even waste time/mental capacity on the idea of future balance by nerfing output numbers. Why does everyone think the solution to everything is obviously to nerf/buff numbers?

What makes the C&D > Mug > Backstab combo so powerful is that it all happens at once. There’s no time to react. FORGET nerfing numbers. Just make Mug interrupt C&D.

People have time to counter. Problem solved. No more fretting over which skill gets nerfed into the ground. No more fretting over how it affects other builds.

*Edited for clarity

sadly they already nerfed C&D and brought to hell S/D in the attempt to nerf D/D burst.

Paired with the daze on TS being reduced, and VOILA’, S/D thieves have totally disappeared from tPvP.

I want more options, not less.

aNet, do whatthekittenyouwant, but increase thief build diversity.

I’m tired to play D/D burst, and i’m tired of this ridicolous bunker/burst meta.

Wraithforge.8710:

I don’t understand why people argue about, or even waste time/mental capacity on the idea of future balance by nerfing output numbers. Why does everyone think the solution to everything is obviously to nerf/buff numbers?

What makes the C&D > Mug > Backstab combo so powerful is that it all happens at once. There’s no time to react. FORGET nerfing numbers. Just make Mug interrupt C&D.

People have time to counter. Problem solved. No more fretting over which skill gets nerfed into the ground. No more fretting over how it affects other builds.

*Edited for clarity

it will change nothing.

You can already backstab→mug and basically oneshot any squishy as long as you have some might stacking/bloodlust buff.

With one signet alone, and signet of power trait ( 5 might stacks) i could bring a mesmer from 100% to 30 % ( 5k steal, 9.5 k backstab) on a 25-30-15 D/P thief in tourney.

Make mug to interrupt C&D and D/D thieves will ALL migrate to D/P ( that is an overall better set after the nerf to OH daggers and is kept back only by shadow shot being crap and Mug ability to be used while on the cast).

Wraithforge.8710:

I don’t understand why people argue about, or even waste time/mental capacity on the idea of future balance by nerfing output numbers. Why does everyone think the solution to everything is obviously to nerf/buff numbers?

What makes the C&D > Mug > Backstab combo so powerful is that it all happens at once. There’s no time to react. FORGET nerfing numbers. Just make Mug interrupt C&D.

People have time to counter. Problem solved. No more fretting over which skill gets nerfed into the ground. No more fretting over how it affects other builds.

*Edited for clarity

That might work, but they would have to change other teleport abilities to also interrupt skills. Even if they did though, this would change the time to react from 3/8 ( assuming you cast halfway through CnD) to 3/4 of a sec. It might work, it might not. Adding that little amount ous time might make no difference at all. It also might affect those people who cast steal halfway through FS to make sure the second attack hits. Also, I like to store bundles from the previous victim, cast them and then re use steal to close the gap and burst down an especially tough opponent (say with 2 rounds of whirling axe). There are no real solutions, only tradeoffs. Also, the original chain could be very closely replicated with the use of haste, which is where a lot of complaints are coming from.

It’s quite mind-boggling seeing that a simple trait like Mug can go from dealing 700 damage in certain builds to criting close to 6000 on other builds.

The fact that you can increase your damage so excessively in this game points to a larger issue.

Dee Jay.2460:

It’s quite mind-boggling seeing that a simple trait like Mug can go from dealing 700 damage in certain builds to criting close to 6000 on other builds.

The fact that you can increase your damage so excessively in this game points to a larger issue.

Mug is the only reason why there isnìt too many people whining about Steal being crap.

Without Mug and the ability to be used mid-cast, Steal would be totally useless for basically ALL thief builds.

Stolen items, with recent nerfs to whirling axes and skull, are nothing really worth anymore, and their effects can’t justify a 45 secs CD ( maybe ranger water field is the only one ).

Steal traits and it being istant, are the only thing still carrying steal into being useful.

And i’m waiting eagerly to them being removed ( ahhh, a man can dream) and thieves being nerfed into oblivion, so people will finally start to understand how weak and pigeon holed this profession is compared to other proffs

Maugetarr.6823:

Wraithforge.8710:

I don’t understand why people argue about, or even waste time/mental capacity on the idea of future balance by nerfing output numbers. Why does everyone think the solution to everything is obviously to nerf/buff numbers?

What makes the C&D > Mug > Backstab combo so powerful is that it all happens at once. There’s no time to react. FORGET nerfing numbers. Just make Mug interrupt C&D.

People have time to counter. Problem solved. No more fretting over which skill gets nerfed into the ground. No more fretting over how it affects other builds.

*Edited for clarity

That might work, but they would have to change other teleport abilities to also interrupt skills. Even if they did though, this would change the time to react from 3/8 ( assuming you cast halfway through CnD) to 3/4 of a sec. It might work, it might not. Adding that little amount ous time might make no difference at all. It also might affect those people who cast steal halfway through FS to make sure the second attack hits. Also, I like to store bundles from the previous victim, cast them and then re use steal to close the gap and burst down an especially tough opponent (say with 2 rounds of whirling axe). There are no real solutions, only tradeoffs. Also, the original chain could be very closely replicated with the use of haste, which is where a lot of complaints are coming from.

Exactly sword and dagger builds (like myself) use steal in a completely different way than D/D thieves as an opener. Tactical strike on a moving target, first hit lands, 2nd one isn’t going to, pop steal for mug damage and 2nd hit damage on FS for really nice burst. Either that or I wear a target down, then wait for a heal, tactical strike, flanking strike with mug to burst the target down.