Guild Wars 2

First: Gear
Second: Damage done by a thief

Spec: Guardian – http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQNAS8elYg67GHSLEfIFSuA7DAEmCMC+ueQRYIDB;ToAqsMZJyymlLLZWrLGWcuYzA

Please tell me why someone should be able to do half of my health in one hit as a full toughness defense spec’d profession? All the while being stealthed.

Please see the following link for a great summary perspective from a thief

Screenshots from others
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Backstab-time-to-nerf/606991
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Backstab-time-to-nerf/606858
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/external?l=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FTLRNW.jpg

Well it wouldn’t be am MMO without overpowered 1v1 stealth class

You have 16,000 health… Even my thief has more (21,000).

The thief doing 8000 dmg in one hit has only that one hit. He’s probably a glass cannon, which makes him pretty easy to defeat. My condition thief rarely die, and if I do it’s because I didn’t pay attention to the battlefield and opponents. I eat other thieves for lunch.

You’re complaining about a 8000 damage backstab?
Really? 16000 health isn’t a lot. 1700 toughness is decent, not amazing (my thief has 1672…)

That’s like complaining that Necomancers are op because you decided to go low vit and don’t have a whole lot of condition removal…

Roll thief then and use backstap.. End of story. I honestly see no problem in it being nerfed, as long as u improve or other dmg abilities and give us higher base health;)
And honestly I know ppl QQ when u add pvp.. But remember u can risk grouping up with ze thief.. Would u like it to do zero dmg?

Thieves are in the same boat. We have the worst health pools in the game. Your also wearing heavy armor.

GlockworK.2954:

Thieves are in the same boat. We have the worst health pools in the game. Your also wearing heavy armor.

actually no, they get a much better conversion of vitality to hp then guardians, its just no thief actually puts vitality on their gear because they don’t need to, perma stealth.

No it’s because if a thief is going full blown backstab build, he’ll be a glass cannon. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen a thief rooted or blown with AoE and dies in less then 3 seconds because he was running a backstab build with 16k health and 1.6k toughness, if that.

SKuDDer.1860:

First: http://d.pr/i/KnZf
Second: http://d.pr/i/QWjY

Please tell me why someone should be able to do half of my health in one hit as a full toughness defense spec’d profession? all the while being stealthed.

1. Glass cannons should mitigate tanky builds since the offense (should) cancel out their defense, but the tradeoff is they could be two shotted too.

2. Backstab’s damage is very situational and easy to avoid. It’s annoying using it in PvE due to its .2 second charge time. It doesn’t sound like a lot, but in that short window mobs sometimes turn right around AFTER I pressed the button, so to get around it when possible I wait for the mob to go back to their original location since they always face the same way when going back, and get in a guaranteed backstab.

3. I hardly ever use backstab in WvW simply because it isn’t viable. Shortbow ensures range, and the initiative costs combined with the high risk of backstab make it impractical. It’s best used in a group where one guy stuns to ensure the backstab damage goes through.

4. You lost half your HP, and they lost plenty of initiative doing so. If you’re a warrior you could easily level the playing field again, and they brought your HP down to their level. Thieves don’t have a lot of HP and I only have 17k on mine in WvW.

5. Without the opener thieves are pretty much sunk.

6. Many utility abilities are on long CD.

7. Try playing one yourself, and run into good warriors and guardians, and see if your opinion still holds true.

I saw the rogue nerfs coming a mile away since last year when I saw the Blizzcon videos going over talent trees. There was an awkward silence when you had to choose between preparation and shadowstep (which should have been a baseline level 5 ability), and instead of getting new and exciting things we just get our old stuff handed back to us and have to choose between essential skills. I’ve lurked on the WoW forums and “ignore the rogue” unfortunately is now a viable strategy, and warlocks don’t even bother fearing rogues anymore.

I have more Toughness than that on my Thief. That’s not anywhere remotely close to a full defence spec, considering your power/prec are your highest stats, although almost equivalent to your Toughness and my Thief only has 2k less HP than you do. Proper defence levels of Toughness are at LEAST 2k, ideally up to 2.4-2.5k.

whilst I do detest backstab based stealthy thief/rogue builds in pvp as a whole. people need to register that there is both a visual and audio cue before the backstab happens. you can dodge and mitigate it totally. sure its not easy and when in a fight with someone else it can be kitten right impossible but there is a system in place to recognise when this type of attack is about to happen.

The condition poison alone could do half your health bar vs such a weak setup. Backstab isn’t the issue. He’s built glass cannon and you have sod all defence. Glass cannon vs no defence = dead.

as a thief (although not that pro) i cant really kill a full devoted bunker guardian,

lets face it, your guardian is a little glassy in terms of the stats you posted.

in my opinion, if you have 3k toughness, that is the time you should complain if a thief instagibs you.

Oldgrimm.8521:

as a thief (although not that pro) i cant really kill a full devoted bunker guardian,

lets face it, your guardian is a little glassy in terms of the stats you posted.

in my opinion, if you have 3k toughness, that is the time you should complain if a thief instagibs you.

Sounds like you need more SoM+Pistol Whip+Haste xD

BabelFish.7234:

Oldgrimm.8521:

as a thief (although not that pro) i cant really kill a full devoted bunker guardian,

lets face it, your guardian is a little glassy in terms of the stats you posted.

in my opinion, if you have 3k toughness, that is the time you should complain if a thief instagibs you.

Sounds like you need more SoM+Pistol Whip+Haste xD

i dont know how to use haste utility that well, i tried that but i end up being dead, heheehh XD

SKuDDer.1860:

First: http://d.pr/i/KnZf
Second: http://d.pr/i/QWjY

Please tell me why someone should be able to do half of my health in one hit as a full toughness defense spec’d profession? all the while being stealthed.

Here’s a question; who won that fight?
And what exactly did the thief manage to do AFTER that backstab?

1. Hardly glass cannon build, for one there is no such thing with guardian.
2. Over 1.8k toughness is a waste of stats.
3. The only way you can achieve 2.5k toughness is have 0 other stats.
4. GEAR
5. Already have a 80 thief, and I think they are op’d with the perma stealth and backstab dmg, because I do it as well. http://d.pr/i/dX33

I hear a lot of complaining about a specific type of thief build, backstab, but I never see any logical ways to fix it mentioned besides “nerf it.” Nerfing something doesn’t fix everything. One change to that will change how thieves play, their gear, and tactics.

Right now you’re upset that thieves have crazy burst dmg and almost “perma-stealth” due to rendering issues and your lack of attention on the battlefield. Thieves don’t have perma-stealth, they just caught you when you weren’t looking. Enough said.

So Skudder has an 80 thief. How would you fix the thief class? What does a thief bring to the tabble if not his burst dps/cond dps? Surely you won’t say venoms or then I would have to really believe you don’t know your class.

p.s. Anyone can have a level 80.

No i am 100% fine with their damage, it just needs to be nerfed against toughness. Right now it appears that toughness has no factor in backstab damage.

This game rewards damage over defense too much.

Mix that with perma stealth and WvWvW delay on loading characters, and you get killed by a thief without ever seeing them.

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

I hear a lot of complaining about a specific type of thief build, backstab, but I never see any logical ways to fix it mentioned besides “nerf it.” Nerfing something doesn’t fix everything. One change to that will change how thieves play, their gear, and tactics.

Right now you’re upset that thieves have crazy burst dmg and almost “perma-stealth” due to rendering issues and your lack of attention on the battlefield. Thieves don’t have perma-stealth, they just caught you when you weren’t looking. Enough said.

So Skudder has an 80 thief. How would you fix the thief class? What does a thief bring to the tabble if not his burst dps/cond dps? Surely you won’t say venoms or then I would have to really believe you don’t know your class.

p.s. Anyone can have a level 80.

Want some suggestions?

- Backstab should get a maximum of 6k damage critical on a squishy glass cannon build.
- Heartseeker should have the leap removed.
- Stealth debuff should last longer.
- Stealth should last way longer if traited, less if untraited.
- There should be given some clue of where the thief is if you succed to hit him while stealthed (like a sparkle or a sound).
- Mug should have reduced damage.
- Hide in Shadows should have less stealth duration compared to other skills
- Basilisk Venom should have 2 seconds stone duration
- Cloak and Dagger should cost 2 more initiative.
- Death Blossom should have removed (or reduced to 3-4 seconds) bleeding effect and increased damage
- Fear from Necromancer Steal should last 1 and 1/2 seconds and cast faster.
- Unload should inflict bleeding
- The dagger autoattack damage should be decreased

Than you guys can enjoy mastering your profession without getting easy wins.
I would reroll thief if those changes are applied, right now I feel playing a thief like cheating.

Here is my suggestion. Conditions should remove/pop stealth, problem solved.

I have more of an issue with thieves being able to say, “hey this isn’t going well”, time to stealth to the other side of the map. (heartseaker/teleport/speed/stealth/etc)

If you are going to have the damage, you shouldn’t also have the survivability.

if conditions should remove stealth,

they should change the trait line that whenever you stealth you remove conditions,

one suggestion that i have read somewhere, and i supported the idea, one class should have anti-stealth capability.

SKuDDer.1860:

Here is my suggestion. Conditions should remove/pop stealth, problem solved.

I have more of an issue with thieves being able to say, “hey this isn’t going well”, time to stealth to the other side of the map. (heartseaker/teleport/speed/stealth/etc)

If you are going to have the damage, you shouldn’t also have the survivability.

1. Then I want something that removes all conditions, like a Cloak of Shadows. Every kitten and their mother is able to put some kind of condition me someone that does damage. (Burning, Bleeding, Poison, and Immobilze-though does no damage holds me in place so a smart player and blindly attack me).

2.After a battle, let’s say a thief somehow has 12-15 initiative left over. They can heartseeker 4-5 times and the range is 450 each. That’s 1800-2250 range in a few seconds. Now he is out of initiative…completely. Then let’s say this thief has Shadowstep! 1200 Range, 50 second CD. And for grins and giggles, when he dodges he gets 2 seconds of swiftness so there is 4 seconds of swiftness and heck, let’s just throw in the signet of shadows for 25% movement speed increase outside of combat. Congrats rogue. You used 1 utility to teleport away, 1 passive utility that helps you only outside of combat and you walked away from a fight where he may have dropped 1 person before someone caught on. Too bad to pull that off again, he has to wait 50 seconds.

We hit and we run because if we stuck around we’re screwed.

3. LOL what? Ok, give me the damage but give me things that help me survive toe to toe and not mobility. Survivability to a thief is mobility.

I play a thief since launch and if you say you are a full toughness defense spec’d profession, you’re probably playing it badly. I’ve fought very skilled guardians where i cant’t get him to a quarter hp and he just stun locks me to death.

SKuDDer.1860:

GlockworK.2954:

Thieves are in the same boat. We have the worst health pools in the game. Your also wearing heavy armor.

actually no, they get a much better conversion of vitality to hp then guardians, its just no thief actually puts vitality on their gear because they don’t need to, perma stealth.

What the hell does “conversion of vitality” mean? I’m pretty sure that 1 point of vitality equals 10 Health points on ALL the classes.
You can’t “perma stealth” as a Thief. Rendering is a whole different issue, and Thieves should not be nerfed based on the bug, the bug should be fixed.
There is a 3 second delay whenever a Thief comes out of stealth before he can go back into stealth again.

- Backstab should get a maximum of 6k damage critical on a squishy glass cannon build.

What determines what a glass cannon build is in-game and not to a player? I wish people would actually give specifications as to what you mean. Arenanet aren’t psychic. I would have suggested a Heartseeker-esque grade of Toughness affecting Backstab’s damage instead of just a high base damage (although the base damage should be higher than the usual attack anyway). It’s not the player’s fault if the other player decided not to invest in defence. Don’t punish the attacker for that oversight.

- Heartseeker should have the leap removed.

It would be utterly worthless without some form of attached gap closer. Perhaps reduce the distance by a margin or have the lowest condition (<25% HP) the only one that affects damage, but don’t completely destroy it.

- Stealth debuff should last longer.

By how long?

- Stealth should last way longer if traited, less if untraited.

It already lasts long enough when traited. If it goes any longer, you’ll break it.

- There should be given some clue of where the thief is if you succed to hit him while stealthed (like a sparkle or a sound).

There is. Your auto-attack chains will trigger, your character will slightly orientate towards where it hit for the next attack, and dots will still display.

- Mug should have reduced damage.

Agreed, by 10-15% perhaps. Any less and the skill becomes entirely worthless.

- Hide in Shadows should have less stealth duration compared to other skills

Perhaps in exchange for the effects of Blinding Powder, yes.

- Basilisk Venom should have 2 seconds stone duration

Not sure what you’re going for here, but considering it’s breakable, 2 seconds isn’t bad.

- Cloak and Dagger should cost 2 more initiative.

So Cloak and Dagger will cost EIGHT initiative. That’s two-thirds of the Thief’s global cooldown. That’s ridiculous and you will never be able to use it in any combat situation, ever.

- Death Blossom should have removed (or reduced to 3-4 seconds) bleeding effect and increased damage

Not too sure about that – conditions are a big part of D/D (auto-attack chain constantly lands poison), but I suppose the actual condition damage isn’t.

- Fear from Necromancer Steal should last 1 and 1/2 seconds and cast faster.

Agreed.

- Unload should inflict bleeding

Definitely agreed.

- The dagger autoattack damage should be decreased

Double Strike and Wild Strike should have their damage lowered slightly, but Lotus Strike should have increased damage to compensate. This way, there is more leeway, especially with the rendering issue, and after the first 3 hits of the auto-attack chain, you’ve had plenty of time to react. If Lotus nails you, its your own fault.

@Auesis:

1. Backstab is an almost instant skill, don’t forget about that. A damage a skill can do on that low casting time is at maximum 6k when you are running with full power and 30% critical damage against a player with base toughness. The point is that right now, thieves can get more of the damage I proposed against player with 1700-1800 toughness.

2. The leap effect is what makes Heartseeker overpowered. It almost cancels all snares effect to thieves because of its spammability and also deal a quite decent damage. With no leap effect it will looks more like a final stab than a cheap leap.

3. By 2-3 seconds. And make it apply also when stealth ends, not just when it is ended by the player but with less time.

4. I mean 6-7 seconds. Anyway you will make spotting a stealthed thief way easier than it is now. Thieves can get this Stealth duration with Shadow Refuge, so it is already broken, right?

5. No every weapon set has an autoattack chain and no every weapon set has an autoattack chain which doesn’t require a target. Dots don’t display btw. When you hit the thief you see his silhouette (like how you see stealthed friendly players) for a short period of time. In this way, thieves should also avoid attacks other than just vanish. To compensate this, they’ll have increased stealth duration.

6. //

7. I mean compared to other stealthing skills. If other skills, like I said, get 6-7 seconds of stealth, Hide in Shadows should stay as it is now.

8. Basilisk Venom is an useless elite right now. Devoreour Venom is better. There should be something which let thieves choose this Venom instead of others.

9. You can. Initiative regenerates quite fast and right now it can be used to spam backstab. There also should be a leap backward effect. It should be more an escape than a fuel for backstab.

10. D/D is a damage set. Bleeding on Death Blossom makes absolutely no sense.

11. //

12. //

13. I don’t know if what you said will work, but right now spamming autoattack with dagger is way too much effective.

DB has bleed because thiefs need more then the SB for viable AoE.

DB has decent damage but its pretty lack-luster compared to other AoE abilities.

Personally, I’d rather see it apply poison. Leave the bleeding to the pistols ty.

Right now a thief can do 6-8k dmg to my guardian, who isn’t specced 100% toughness because who is going to do that? I am also specced 30 valor and 20 honor. So according to thieves, i should put all my points into toughness and vitality, this way, I can do 100 damage? I am already sacarificing on every pieces of gear 1 stat for toughness, 1700-1800 toughness should be more then enough to mitigate your backstab damage, but the truth is that it does not.

You stack this with the fact that condition damage doesn’t even bother using toughness to mitigate damage, or guardians -33% dmg reduction.

Then you add in the low health pool of guardians compare to the rest of the profession, ask any guardian, they will never have more then 15-18k hp without the orb buffs.

Then you factor in the stealth issues. You can get off 4 attacks before WvW even renders you.

People act like gear doesn’t have 3 stats (or more for some amulets) on it. Full toughness gear still leaves a lot of other stats.

It’s a fact that toughness and protection mitigate direct damage. +1000 toughness on a guardian removes about 33% damage taken. Add in protection and I’m pretty sure you’re taking 1/2 the damage of a no-toughness, no-protection guardian. Which is still 10% less damage than a clothy takes.

Condition damage shouldn’t remove stealth. That’s just stealth breaking, because conditions are all over attacks in this game. Many high DD attacks also deal bleed/dot/burning.

Being disabled (knockback, stun, fear, etc) might be a reason to remove stealth, but even that’s going to have to be looked at closely.

The thief doing 8000 dmg in one hit has only that one hit.

Not really. CND and Mug should also do another 5k.

4. You lost half your HP, and they lost plenty of initiative doing so.

6 ini. So they have 8 left. That’s 3 heartseekers

6. Many utility abilities are on long CD.

One utility is on cd, and steal.

people need to register that there is both a visual and audio cue before the backstab happens.

There is no visual or audio cue for a 0.2s event from 900 range.

in my opinion, if you have 3k toughness, that is the time you should complain if a thief instagibs you.

No one has 3k toughness. Perhaps you mean armor?

Bottom line: as long as CND->Mug exists and Mug does damage worth mentioning, then CND->Mug->Backstab will be QQQQQtrain and Thieves will get more nerfs (or buffs and nerfs as the Signet event showed).

There are easy ways to fix this. Make Steal a non-instant ability. Or, put the CND damage at the beginning of the ability and the stealth at the end (separates the damage). Increase the CND cast time along with it (but make the stealth guaranteed with the successful hit at the beginning). Add a real cast time to Backstab, instead of being purely instant. Nerf Mug’s damage. Or split it into direct + bleed damage. Or both.

Nerf Berserker gear.

All of the above?

Zzz.

lol seriously ? if thief kill you in 3 sec you suck with guardian, just dodge first attack pop hammer of wisdom stun him pop spirit sword up stun him with hammer use your hammers knockdown then immobilize him, use aoe attack change to sword use leap to blind him use aoe attack pop hammer stun and he is trying to get away(20-30%hp), use teleport use ww byby thief.
if you are fighting 10 vs 10 you die because of buffs.

sorrow.2364:

Want some suggestions?

- Backstab should get a maximum of 6k damage critical on a squishy glass cannon build.
- Heartseeker should have the leap removed.
- Stealth debuff should last longer.
- Stealth should last way longer if traited, less if untraited.
- There should be given some clue of where the thief is if you succed to hit him while stealthed (like a sparkle or a sound).
- Mug should have reduced damage.
- Hide in Shadows should have less stealth duration compared to other skills
- Basilisk Venom should have 2 seconds stone duration
- Cloak and Dagger should cost 2 more initiative.
- Death Blossom should have removed (or reduced to 3-4 seconds) bleeding effect and increased damage
- Fear from Necromancer Steal should last 1 and 1/2 seconds and cast faster.
- Unload should inflict bleeding
- The dagger autoattack damage should be decreased

Than you guys can enjoy mastering your profession without getting easy wins.
I would reroll thief if those changes are applied, right now I feel playing a thief like cheating.

Most of these suggestions are quite good or at least a solid basis for a discussion.
Basically the base strength of the Thief’s burst, mobility and frequency of stealth need to be reduced but with sufficient trait points investment you can make them one or two of them really powerful.

Just give it a couple months, then we’ll be complaining about a new class being OP. Anet said they were going to change class builds to keep the game fresh so just give it time.

Wow…..whine some more about thieves. Hooray! I wonder what it is that makes it so my Guardian doesn’t have all these problems that cause me to run to the forums crying about how badly I was beaten. Oh yeah, I play a Thief too so I understand how to fight them.

You guys need to spend all the time you sit there complaining on the forums and use it to learn the class you want to beat instead.

I think the problem isnt necessarily backstab, its the chain which can be put together very fast, all putting out large numbers. Also as long as the rendering problems for stealth go unfixed, I do not think the true glass cannon nature of the spec is truly realized.

The man has a point.

I tried different setups with my guardian to try and survive thief burst without kittening damage and I couldn’t really do it.

I ended up with 30 points each in Valor and Honor, and 10 in Zeal. Full Emerald Knight accessories, full Knight’s Draconic Armour with Soldier Crests.

So far the biggest backstab I’ve seen has been ~5k.

I haven’t lost to a thief yet, but I’m not as successful as I’d like versus a few other classes because of these changes.

I think the idea is that you have to alter your build too much to counter the burstiness – it’s excessive.

But why is it excessive? Why is it so hard to understand that the point of the class it to kill people that are not ready to deal with burst damage? If you spec to do damage, you’re open to getting killed by damage. If you’re spec is meant as a hybrid of damage and defense, you should survive a Thief just fine, but then you’re probably open to classes that don’t use many attacks that are physical, like perhaps Elementalist and Necromancer. You are not supposed to be able to find a spec that has the answer to everything in the game. The counter to the Thief is high defense because 95% of anything a high burst damage Thief will use against you is physical damage. If you have enough defense the entire burst damage sequence of CnD>Mug>Backstab goes from hitting 15,000 down to about 8,000 assuming everything critically hits. And 8,000 damage is nothing against anything other than other glass cannons. My Thief isn’t even built for glass cannon and has over 21,000 health right now.

Think about your role, that’s what your gd class choice is for. If you want to make people feel stupid for having 14,000 health, make a Backstab Thief and kill them. You want to kitten that you died to a Backstab Thief because you had 14,000 health, then you either need to learn to play better and be very aware that you’re 1 or 2 hits away from death, or roll another class. Nerfing Thief damage will not make them kill you any less, especially if you suck against them now, it will simply turn into a much more annoying control game where not only will you die, but you’ll be stunned/knocked down/poisoned/chilled/slowed/rooted and feared for the whole fight. You take away the burst, you give them control, that’s how the balance game works kids.

I’d bet your kitten all these whiners would much rather have the Thief as it stands with its ability to 2 or 3 shot one person once per minute and able to die in 2 hits from anybody, than a Thief that has three or four stuns, incapacitates, blinds, dazes, teleports, sprints, vanish, etc. Look at the control of a WoW Rogue and ask yourself if that’s what you want here because I promise you the kitten factor would implode the planet if that’s where the road takes us.

Its evident that those of you saying stop QQing have not tried playing the other professions. You would know that the base health of a guardian is the lowest in the game. Unlike other professions in the game, if we do not put power into our builds we do almost no damage. This is the reason for the upcoming patch, to add toughness to mitigate condition damage, because as of now all the armor/toughness in the word doesn’t help guardians.

Like you guys say, not every class should be able to kill every class, so why can thieves?

And why do you thieves keep saying stun? Tell me, what stun is it guardians get? We get an immobilize, that is assuming we can see you, and you aren’t moving 100mph and flipping everywhere.

It boils down to CD’s, thieves need some added cast time/ CD to their abilites. Stuff is too easily abused with the WvWvW stealth loading issues, which probably won’t ever be fixed, so they will have to do something with your skills to adjust.

And to clear some confusion up, with my armor + my build I should be mitigating 52% damage. -33% with my constant buff, and lets say ~20% from armor/toughness. So with that, this 8000 damage backstab this guy did to me, would be 10640 to someone without the -33% damage mitigation, and about 10% more on squishy armor/glass cannon specs. So you are saying its ok for someone to crit backstab at the highest for 11704, which is easily over half the hp of any profession, in 1 hit?

Auesis.7301:

I have more Toughness than that on my Thief. That’s not anywhere remotely close to a full defence spec, considering your power/prec are your highest stats, although almost equivalent to your Toughness and my Thief only has 2k less HP than you do. Proper defence levels of Toughness are at LEAST 2k, ideally up to 2.4-2.5k.

This is impossible for one. You are probably meaning defense as a total, in which case, I have 2916, which is about right on part for a survivability specced guardian.

But why is it excessive? Why is it so hard to understand that the point of the class it to kill people that are not ready to deal with burst damage?

Because you only use 1/4th of your build capabilities and 1/3rd of your resources to auto-kill 80% of opponents instantly.

You should have to use most / all of your resources to guarantee the auto-kills, and have to be ineffective at other combat venues (e.g. escaping) in order to achieve that.

The build does not make sufficient sacrifices for its capability, and does not use enough resources to execute for balance.

Other classes can invest fully into burst kills, and cannot achieve the Thief’s degree of guaranteed auto-kill. Even in cases where that can almost be achieved, the other classes lack the stealth / escape capabilities of a Thief.

Hence, needs nerfing.

EasymodeX.4062:

But why is it excessive? Why is it so hard to understand that the point of the class it to kill people that are not ready to deal with burst damage?

Because you only use 1/4th of your build capabilities and 1/3rd of your resources to auto-kill 80% of opponents instantly.

You should have to use most / all of your resources to guarantee the auto-kills, and have to be ineffective at other combat venues (e.g. escaping) in order to achieve that.

The build does not make sufficient sacrifices for its capability, and does not use enough resources to execute for balance.

Other classes can invest fully into burst kills, and cannot achieve the Thief’s degree of guaranteed auto-kill. Even in cases where that can almost be achieved, the other classes lack the stealth / escape capabilities of a Thief.

Hence, needs nerfing.

QFT, this is what I was trying to get across, just not doing a good job.

got hit with an 15k backstab today i dont even

Remove the ability to spool up CnD before stealing. (Anet needs to fix the culling/rendering issues). Problem solved.

If you stand there on a CnD (and do nothing) when the thief is right there behind you, then you deserve the damage (if said traits/abilities are on CD, then it you would’ve eaten the damage anyways)

Basilisk venom can now be broken by various traits/abilities, so you can’t say you had no chance.

If you’re in a mass of fighting, and it happens, chances are, any other profession could’ve taken advantage of the confusion sown by so many around you.

I’ve run both a condition/survival build and a glass build, and while it’s a lot easier on the survival build, it’s definitely survivable on a glass build if your CDs are available and you’re paying attention.

Footnote: I’m not advocating that thieves aren’t OP, underpowered, or just right. That’s a post for another topic.

SKuDDer.1860:

You would know that the base health of a guardian is the lowest in the game. Unlike other professions in the game, if we do not put power into our builds we do almost no damage.

Actually, you have the same amount of health of a thief. Guardians just get to wear heavy armor so their total armor is greater. Regardless, I do agree that guardians could use a bump in vitality.

Instead of learning how to play let’s completely break a class instead of learning how to play against it! If you want to faceroll against stealthies go back to WoW, seriously. Feral hits like a kitten now and rogues are broken and have drastically lower top representation in arenas than they had in Cata. Just remember: ignore the rogue, if there are any.

sorrow.2364:

13. I don’t know if what you said will work, but right now spamming autoattack with dagger is way too much effective.

Dagger auto attack is less DPS than sword auto attack depending on condition damage, and sword applies arguably better conditions. I don’t understand why people continue to think that there’s something special about dagger #1 spam, it is right in line with every other thief weapon.

swinsk.6410:

L2p. I am wearing all exotics with max runes stats etc. I fought a guardian other day and won 1/5 fights. I landed bs like 10 times he kept managing to stay up and kite me. He played very well and he had max gear…

Bs is fine, your just a noob trying to wvw in subpar gear IMO.

Then you are not playing your class right, because you should never die to a guardian, you can easily stealth away if you are losing.

Backstab damage is fine.

I think there are valid arguments to nudge down Cloak and Dagger damage, and exceptional arguments to hit Mug damage. Backstab though? There’s nothing out of line with the damage it deals, it’s a pure damage heavy hitter on par with other heavy hitters that’s non-trivial to set-up.

I care a lot less about a properly executed, buff stacked, full dunk Backstab critting for 9k, than the blink + stealth utility combo that set it up dealing 10k – especially when you consider that the Backstab was likely empowered by the 20% Executioner bonus, while the C&D + Mug damage was not.

Personally, I think nuking Mug from orbit would do wonders for the long term health of the game.

First message in the box.

8k+ backstab

I have a decent toughness+vit, but this just halved my hp, or even more..

(Mesmer)

Auesis.7301:

- Backstab should get a maximum of 6k damage critical on a squishy glass cannon build.

What determines what a glass cannon build is in-game and not to a player? I wish people would actually give specifications as to what you mean. Arenanet aren’t psychic. I would have suggested a Heartseeker-esque grade of Toughness affecting Backstab’s damage instead of just a high base damage (although the base damage should be higher than the usual attack anyway). It’s not the player’s fault if the other player decided not to invest in defence. Don’t punish the attacker for that oversight.

- Heartseeker should have the leap removed.

It would be utterly worthless without some form of attached gap closer. Perhaps reduce the distance by a margin or have the lowest condition (<25% HP) the only one that affects damage, but don’t completely destroy it.

- Stealth debuff should last longer.

By how long?

- Stealth should last way longer if traited, less if untraited.

It already lasts long enough when traited. If it goes any longer, you’ll break it.

- There should be given some clue of where the thief is if you succed to hit him while stealthed (like a sparkle or a sound).

There is. Your auto-attack chains will trigger, your character will slightly orientate towards where it hit for the next attack, and dots will still display.

- Mug should have reduced damage.

Agreed, by 10-15% perhaps. Any less and the skill becomes entirely worthless.

- Hide in Shadows should have less stealth duration compared to other skills

Perhaps in exchange for the effects of Blinding Powder, yes.

- Basilisk Venom should have 2 seconds stone duration

Not sure what you’re going for here, but considering it’s breakable, 2 seconds isn’t bad.

- Cloak and Dagger should cost 2 more initiative.

So Cloak and Dagger will cost EIGHT initiative. That’s two-thirds of the Thief’s global cooldown. That’s ridiculous and you will never be able to use it in any combat situation, ever.

- Death Blossom should have removed (or reduced to 3-4 seconds) bleeding effect and increased damage

Not too sure about that – conditions are a big part of D/D (auto-attack chain constantly lands poison), but I suppose the actual condition damage isn’t.

- Fear from Necromancer Steal should last 1 and 1/2 seconds and cast faster.

Agreed.

- Unload should inflict bleeding

Definitely agreed.

- The dagger autoattack damage should be decreased

Double Strike and Wild Strike should have their damage lowered slightly, but Lotus Strike should have increased damage to compensate. This way, there is more leeway, especially with the rendering issue, and after the first 3 hits of the auto-attack chain, you’ve had plenty of time to react. If Lotus nails you, its your own fault.

hahaha, someone needs to L2P if you think this is balance.