Guild Wars 2

tigirius.9014:

I honestly don’t see the issue. First and foremost thieves do not automagically appear behind you when stealthed or teleporting (a big no no imo) second that isn’t very much health. My engineer has more health then that in his green explorer stuff. I always thought one of the goals of PVP was to put on something that gave extra health to improve survivability.

By default you have 5k more hp then gaurdians. Health
Guardians make up for this in “armor” and damage reduction, supposedly. But toughness does not affect conditions atm, and honestly I feel like some abilities.

Its not hard to get behind someone when they can pop stealth, teleport to you or behind you, then start

Tribune.3782:

There are no “1-shots” or even “perma-stealth” builds without drawbacks:

Some repeated misconceptions:

1) 1-shots: there’s always time to react if you’re an average-skilled player (but most players are casuals who didn’t even manage to complete the “tower jumping puzzle”). Even the engineer-burst video isn’t a one-shot. It needs several grenande volleys on a stunned player. So it’s either dodgeble, blockable, breakable (stun) etc.

Concerning thieves, a possible combo:

Activate new Assassin’s Signet: 15% on next 5 attacks:
Cloak and Dagger activation
Steal (mug)
Cloak and Dagger now hits
Backstab
Autoattacks or Heartseekers

This is no 1-shot and needs positional accuracy which can easily denied. Also, the thieves doing this are often experienced roamers (WvW/sPvP) and know how to take out a target. It’s your own fault if you don’t specc for survivability/vitality/toughness and move across a map without support. Then you may be in a serious danger of dying – that’s fine.

Not to mention: a lot of WvW/sPvP players haven’t even played a main for a continuous time and aren’t maxed (gear in WvW) or use subpar gear/trait/skill sets.

Also: No Thief can sneak up to you from distance without getting noticed. If a thief gets into steal-range you gotta be prepared – if you don’t have a stun breaker then it’s your own fault.

2) There’s no such thing as perma-stealth. There’s only a problem with rendering/culling (mesmers/thieves/shadow refugees). But a thief cannot maintain a huge and repeated uptime on stealth without reducing damage significantly because he had to choose stealth skills instead of signets for his utility slots. There are some video of thieves abusing the rendering issues (point capture) – but they won’t “5-shot” (cf. above) anyone.

I beg to differ on both points. Point 1, I am an above average player, I solo roam or I duo with a thief buddy, we fight against larger groups of players and normally win. If I’m solo, I expect to get into 1v1’s, 2v1’s, 3v1’s etc… I know how to handle myself and regularly get messages from players I killed saying I’m a good player. I know the consequences of solo/small group roaming. I have THREE stun breakers (cantrips) on my utility bar, just so I can avoid getting stunned -> nuked. Thieves CAN and DO “1-shot people”, technically it takes 3 key presses and they are normally using Devourer’s Venom. But I’ve been killed by a thief with this same combo and been unable to react in time before I’m down.

Point 2, Thieves can have an extended time in stealth while repeatedly stealthing and retaining very. very decent damage. Just the other day while roaming, myself and my thief buddy came across a thief doing this exact same thing. We honestly thought he was hacking, due to the constant stealthing and the damage he was able to put out. So we figured out how he was doing it, my friend replicated his build (we spoke to the opposition player who was doing it) and showed me, it was possible.

Don’t assume that every player who is complaining about thieves is some kind of back-peddling half-brain with the reactions of a sloth. There are good players with legitimate concerns over the state of thieves and as I’ve said, thieves themselves admit aspects of their profession are overpowered (anet agress), I duo with a thief who kills people in 2-3 seconds (he engages from stealth, so they cannot counter), he himself agrees that thieves need toning down, other thieves agree that they need toning down. Then there are the players who don’t want anet to take their toy away, those who rely on class gimmicks and not skill.

Some thief insta-gib burst is pretty awful to feel the wrath of.

But i dare you to go into a tournament as a warrior, and actually land a HB completely.

It will not kittening happen.

That MASSIVE damage your talking about will top off at 4K once the enemy stun breaks and leaves, or a massive 0 damage if they just dodge the attack. And then that combo, that requires a 60 seconds recharge, is unusable.

HB is laughed at by the majority of the Warrior community because its like pistol whip but without the immob or the ability to chain it with itself.

If you actually get hit by an entire HB, you have problems.

For other areas to be buffed in response to nerfed burst, i would say buffs to your defense mechanic, increasing your stealth ability. Would be cool if you didn’t destroy people in 2 seconds, but had a prolonged fight where the enemy has to spend most of it wondering where you are.

Loco.4561:

Tribune.3782:

There are no “1-shots” or even “perma-stealth” builds without drawbacks:

Some repeated misconceptions:

1) 1-shots: there’s always time to react if you’re an average-skilled player (but most players are casuals who didn’t even manage to complete the “tower jumping puzzle”). Even the engineer-burst video isn’t a one-shot. It needs several grenande volleys on a stunned player. So it’s either dodgeble, blockable, breakable (stun) etc.

Concerning thieves, a possible combo:

Activate new Assassin’s Signet: 15% on next 5 attacks:
Cloak and Dagger activation
Steal (mug)
Cloak and Dagger now hits
Backstab
Autoattacks or Heartseekers

This is no 1-shot and needs positional accuracy which can easily denied. Also, the thieves doing this are often experienced roamers (WvW/sPvP) and know how to take out a target. It’s your own fault if you don’t specc for survivability/vitality/toughness and move across a map without support. Then you may be in a serious danger of dying – that’s fine.

Not to mention: a lot of WvW/sPvP players haven’t even played a main for a continuous time and aren’t maxed (gear in WvW) or use subpar gear/trait/skill sets.

Also: No Thief can sneak up to you from distance without getting noticed. If a thief gets into steal-range you gotta be prepared – if you don’t have a stun breaker then it’s your own fault.

2) There’s no such thing as perma-stealth. There’s only a problem with rendering/culling (mesmers/thieves/shadow refugees). But a thief cannot maintain a huge and repeated uptime on stealth without reducing damage significantly because he had to choose stealth skills instead of signets for his utility slots. There are some video of thieves abusing the rendering issues (point capture) – but they won’t “5-shot” (cf. above) anyone.

I beg to differ on both points. Point 1, I am an above average player, I solo roam or I duo with a thief buddy, we fight against larger groups of players and normally win. If I’m solo, I expect to get into 1v1’s, 2v1’s, 3v1’s etc… I know how to handle myself and regularly get messages from players I killed saying I’m a good player. I know the consequences of solo/small group roaming. I have THREE stun breakers (cantrips) on my utility bar, just so I can avoid getting stunned -> nuked. Thieves CAN and DO “1-shot people”, technically it takes 3 key presses and they are normally using Devourer’s Venom. But I’ve been killed by a thief with this same combo and been unable to react in time before I’m down.

Point 2, Thieves can have an extended time in stealth while repeatedly stealthing and retaining very. very decent damage. Just the other day while roaming, myself and my thief buddy came across a thief doing this exact same thing. We honestly thought he was hacking, due to the constant stealthing and the damage he was able to put out. So we figured out how he was doing it, my friend replicated his build (we spoke to the opposition player who was doing it) and showed me, it was possible.

Don’t assume that every player who is complaining about thieves is some kind of back-peddling half-brain with the reactions of a sloth. There are good players with legitimate concerns over the state of thieves and as I’ve said, thieves themselves admit aspects of their profession are overpowered (anet agress), I duo with a thief who kills people in 2-3 seconds (he engages from stealth, so they cannot counter), he himself agrees that thieves need toning down, other thieves agree that they need toning down. Then there are the players who don’t want anet to take their toy away, those who rely on class gimmicks and not skill.

Someone who finally wants to help balance the game and not cry l2p, there is hope for the internet after-all! A great summary, I am linking this from the original post.

People are always willing to defend their classes because they get attached to them, no matter how overpowered or underpowered they are.

It doesn’t takes a genius to figure out that thieves are the most popular and easy to use profession at the moment, the “popular” part is not even an opinion, it’s quite clear at every single spvp match.

Listing drawbacks of the thief is not enough, because we’re not comparing the thief with itself. We’re comparing the thief with other professions, who also have as many if not a lot more drawbacks, while not being as effective at bursting as the thieves.

No one else can choose to start a fight with an enemy under half their HP like a backstab thief can. It’s completely unfair, and comparing thievers’ broken skill sequences in combination with stealth to an extremely predictable GS warrior is not a good idea. Warriors are extremely predictable, and far easier to focus fire on that thieves. A dodge, a stun-breaker, an invulnerability skill, an interrupt, anything in this game can counter a GS warrior, and it’s easy to dance against one with a fair chance of winning. GS Warriors are compensated for that with great damage and some movement skills. Their HB must have brutal damage, because it won’t hit often and requires a great deal of skill to hit with all strikes. A thief can take out half of the HP of anyone while under stealth. And no, the loss of initiative is not a comparable drawback to a 45s cooldown (or is it 60s?) frenzy for an extremely predictable and easy to counter sequence.

People who think thieves will suck after a few nerfs and want to switch classes, I have bad news to you. Maybe a Mesmer and a Guardian, which are two of the strongest professions of the game alongside Thief, are a good choice if you like broken stuff, but they also have been getting nerfed. Maybe a Warrior is tempting, but you’ll be surprised you can’t do things as easy as with a thief. Maybe you’re tempting to try a Ranger, a Necromancer or an Elementalist? I have bad news here too. Those three professions are the least common for a reason, but hey, at least they have buffs coming, which might make you happy!

JonathanSharp.7094:

Just wanted you guys to know we’re looking at this specifically right now. We will probably bring down the raw spike DPS for some builds, but we’ll be careful to increase other areas to compensate.

It’s good to hear. Less burst in the game will open so many doors for different builds and playstyles, and skill.

Please do not forget NPC moves as well, since there are some with very unproportionate damage, like for example those of Spear using mobs underwater in Orr or Frostgorge Sound, that almost kill a normal-geared character without a hint.

I won’t disagree that from a purely killing standpoint the backstab thief has some OP/hard to avoid burst. However, one way to look at it is that this is a much more team-oriented game. Killing other players is something that stands on more equal footing with other things like reviving teammates and holding points than with other mmo’s like wow.

When you look at it like that, you may find that each class brings something completely different to the table and it may balance out that way. Thieves happen to bring incredible burst and killing power once every 30 seconds or so. But I think if you look at this from the perspective of GW2 being quite a different animal from other mmo’s pvp-wise you might see that the fact that thieves bring this to the table doesn’t necessarily make them out of balance, they just happen to specialize in downing people while other classes have strengths in other areas.

SKuDDer.1860:

tigirius.9014:

I honestly don’t see the issue. First and foremost thieves do not automagically appear behind you when stealthed or teleporting (a big no no imo) second that isn’t very much health. My engineer has more health then that in his green explorer stuff. I always thought one of the goals of PVP was to put on something that gave extra health to improve survivability.

By default you have 5k more hp then gaurdians. Health
Guardians make up for this in “armor” and damage reduction, supposedly. But toughness does not affect conditions atm, and honestly I feel like some abilities.

Its not hard to get behind someone when they can pop stealth, teleport to you or behind you, then start

You might want to look at your link again. Thieves, Guardians and Elementalist all get the same base health pools. Everyone gains 10 health per vitality. You get heavy armor and we get medium armor.

And it’s not hard to realize that when you see a Thief disappear he’s probably going for your back, throw down an AoE or roll and be done with it.

I’m a bit amazed they’re actually going to nerf Backstab. Thankfully he claimed they’ll be buffing other stuff in return, but still.
Backstab is so freaking easy to counter; way easier than Hundred Blades. You don’t even need to see the Thief coming. Just dodge AFTER you get hit by CnD and they’re still not gonna get the Backstab itself in. Worst case scenario they used a poison to hold you, and you’ll have to pop a skill to break it first, which is no worse than having to break out of the Stun used by a Warrior for Hundred Blades. The damage itself sure as hell is not greater, and requires specific traits as well as at least two utilities dedicated to it.

GlockworK.2954:

SKuDDer.1860:

tigirius.9014:

I honestly don’t see the issue. First and foremost thieves do not automagically appear behind you when stealthed or teleporting (a big no no imo) second that isn’t very much health. My engineer has more health then that in his green explorer stuff. I always thought one of the goals of PVP was to put on something that gave extra health to improve survivability.

By default you have 5k more hp then gaurdians. Health
Guardians make up for this in “armor” and damage reduction, supposedly. But toughness does not affect conditions atm, and honestly I feel like some abilities.

Its not hard to get behind someone when they can pop stealth, teleport to you or behind you, then start

You might want to look at your link again. Thieves, Guardians and Elementalist all get the same base health pools. Everyone gains 10 health per vitality. You get heavy armor and we get medium armor.

And it’s not hard to realize that when you see a Thief disappear he’s probably going for your back, throw down an AoE or roll and be done with it.

Yes I am aware, but thieves also get better endurance regeneration, better dodge skills…

the problem is you never see them coming to do the first attack, they could be 900 range away, then they use stealth, warp, steal cnd backstab, then finish you off assuming you are alive still.

Lower health pools are made up in different areas for balance reasons. Imagine if the bottom three classes had the same HP as everyone else they would be truely overpowered then.

Loco.4561:

I am an above average player, I solo roam or I duo with a thief buddy, we fight against larger groups of players and normally win. If I’m solo, I expect to get into 1v1’s, 2v1’s, 3v1’s etc… I know how to handle myself and regularly get messages from players I killed saying I’m a good player. I know the consequences of solo/small group roaming. I have THREE stun breakers (cantrips) on my utility bar, just so I can avoid getting stunned.

Everyone thinks that he’s above average. That’s fine. So you did account for possible nuke builds with stun breakers and you said that you are doing fine and players admit that you are a good player. Then I don’t get why it needs to be tuned down. You seem to be able to cope with it. That’s what it’s about – people learning and preparing for certain situations. But one cannot prepare for everything. That’s “life”… (I think you even overprepared for possible stuns – but strategies may differ – no offense).

Loco.4561:

Thieves CAN and DO “1-shot people”, technically it takes 3 key presses and they are normally using Devourer’s Venom. But I’ve been killed by a thief with this same combo and been unable to react in time before I’m down.

No, you’re wrong. 3 key-presses for a venom build you mentioned:

• venom activation
• steal
• “walk” around the target / positioning
• backstab

-> that won’t kill anyone except other thieves and elementalists with them also having a heavy glass cannon build (both professions with lowest base hp).

Loco.4561:

Point 2, Thieves can have an extended time in stealth while repeatedly stealthing and retaining very. very decent damage.

That’s no permanent stealth. We need to be accurate with our choice of words to prevent the spread of misconceptions.

Loco.4561:

Just the other day while roaming, myself and my thief buddy came across a thief doing this exact same thing. We honestly thought he was hacking, due to the constant stealthing and the damage he was able to put out.

Culling is a problem. But that’s not the problem of the thief you’re mentioning. Your anecdote may be influenced by personal perception. If he was able to give you a hard time then you are doing something wrong. Given that all players are on the same level two guys should never have problems dealing with one player or they’re screwing up.

Grimwolf.7163:

I’m a bit amazed they’re actually going to nerf Backstab. Thankfully he claimed they’ll be buffing other stuff in return, but still.
Backstab is so freaking easy to counter; way easier than Hundred Blades. You don’t even need to see the Thief coming. Just dodge AFTER you get hit by CnD and they’re still not gonna get the Backstab itself in. Worst case scenario they used a poison to hold you, and you’ll have to pop a skill to break it first, which is no worse than having to break out of the Stun used by a Warrior for Hundred Blades. The damage itself sure as hell is not greater, and requires specific traits as well as at least two utilities dedicated to it.

How can you possibly compare Hundred Blades to backstab. 3.5s channel where you cannot move vs instant damage.

Loco.4561:

So we figured out how he was doing it, my friend replicated his build (we spoke to the opposition player who was doing it) and showed me, it was possible.

I think you were suprised by the thief. That’s fine. The game is new and has some issues (builds that may abuse culling issues – sometimes by accident)… nerf profession abilities or fix the underlying network/rendering issues?

Loco.4561:

Don’t assume that every player who is complaining about thieves is some kind of back-peddling half-brain with the reactions of a sloth.

I didn’t say that everyone is like that. But there is a huge percentage of players who can’t even keep up proper controls over their character while being stressed (jumping puzzle, only 5% succeded – according to Anet). Most PvP-situations are a similar scenario. It’s not meant as an conceited insult. I just think that most players and thereby a lot of forum readers can’t ensure that they’re capable of participating in balance discussions because they don’t even know how to walk and jump properly (I’m aware of that exageration – it’s intended to serve more like an analoque)

Loco.4561:

There are good players with legitimate concerns over the state of thieves and as I’ve said, thieves themselves admit aspects of their profession are overpowered

There are players who even argue that elementalists are overpowered. You’ll find persons with all different opinions. That doesn’t mean that it’s a fact.

Loco.4561:

(anet agress),

They just take their userbase seriously. They’ll look into that. I have no problems if they decide that something’s imbalanced. But I also think that decisions based on knee-jerk reactions to forum whiners were never good. Proper balance needs time an a “meta” to develop itself.

Loco.4561:

I duo with a thief who kills people in 2-3 seconds (he engages from stealth, so they cannot counter), he himself agrees that thieves need toning down, other thieves agree that they need toning down.

I have a friend of a friend of a friend… yeah. I have a friend of a friend of a friend who says that elementalists are OP. Nerf elementalists… even some elementalists say that they’re OP – so it MUST be a fact. Nerf them!

Loco.4561:

Then there are the players who don’t want anet to take their toy away, those who rely on class gimmicks and not skill.

That’s just opinion. Your “3-shot” does not exist except against undergeared glass cannon thieves and elementalists (lowest health pool).

More anecdotes please.

SKuDDer.1860:

GlockworK.2954:

SKuDDer.1860:

tigirius.9014:

I honestly don’t see the issue. First and foremost thieves do not automagically appear behind you when stealthed or teleporting (a big no no imo) second that isn’t very much health. My engineer has more health then that in his green explorer stuff. I always thought one of the goals of PVP was to put on something that gave extra health to improve survivability.

By default you have 5k more hp then gaurdians. Health
Guardians make up for this in “armor” and damage reduction, supposedly. But toughness does not affect conditions atm, and honestly I feel like some abilities.

Its not hard to get behind someone when they can pop stealth, teleport to you or behind you, then start

You might want to look at your link again. Thieves, Guardians and Elementalist all get the same base health pools. Everyone gains 10 health per vitality. You get heavy armor and we get medium armor.

And it’s not hard to realize that when you see a Thief disappear he’s probably going for your back, throw down an AoE or roll and be done with it.

Yes I am aware, but thieves also get better endurance regeneration, better dodge skills…

the problem is you never see them coming to do the first attack, they could be 900 range away, then they use stealth, warp, steal cnd backstab, then finish you off assuming you are alive still.

As traits, they do. You realize that as a Guardian you also get a crap load of Blocking?
Are you actually trying to complain that your Guardian is not as tough as a Thief? How is anyone even taking that seriously!

SKuDDer.1860:

Grimwolf.7163:

I’m a bit amazed they’re actually going to nerf Backstab. Thankfully he claimed they’ll be buffing other stuff in return, but still.
Backstab is so freaking easy to counter; way easier than Hundred Blades. You don’t even need to see the Thief coming. Just dodge AFTER you get hit by CnD and they’re still not gonna get the Backstab itself in. Worst case scenario they used a poison to hold you, and you’ll have to pop a skill to break it first, which is no worse than having to break out of the Stun used by a Warrior for Hundred Blades. The damage itself sure as hell is not greater, and requires specific traits as well as at least two utilities dedicated to it.

How can you possibly compare Hundred Blades to backstab. 3.5s channel where you cannot move vs instant damage.

Do you honestly not know what Frenzy is? Who in God’s name runs a Hundred Blades build without it.
And the damage of the Backstab combo is not instant.

I don’t understand why people are crying about this possible “nerf” if you all say that the only people who are possibly seen as OP are people using a gimmicky backstab build, and that they are at a hinderance in every other way.. Does that not mean that none of you are playing this build? in which case, the buffs that are coming elsewhere are surely a buff to anyone who isn’t playing a glass backstab build… If you don’t rely on your backstab to kill a person in a few seconds before they have time to react (and slaughter you, apparently) then the buffs to other skills are going to help the people who aren’t playing like this

Grimwolf.7163:

I’m a bit amazed they’re actually going to nerf Backstab. Thankfully he claimed they’ll be buffing other stuff in return, but still.
Backstab is so freaking easy to counter; way easier than Hundred Blades. You don’t even need to see the Thief coming. Just dodge AFTER you get hit by CnD and they’re still not gonna get the Backstab itself in. Worst case scenario they used a poison to hold you, and you’ll have to pop a skill to break it first, which is no worse than having to break out of the Stun used by a Warrior for Hundred Blades. The damage itself sure as hell is not greater, and requires specific traits as well as at least two utilities dedicated to it.

Typically, the CnD/steal combo is paired up with an immobilize like devourer venom or basilisk. Therefore, you’d have to anticipate the cnd/steal, pop a stun breaker and then dodge, all before he positions (which is trivial, being in front of a character is actually just a small cone) and then backstabs. Your argument works if they are not immobilizing but imo that’s a big part of the backstab combo.

SKuDDer.1860:

Grimwolf.7163:

I’m a bit amazed they’re actually going to nerf Backstab. Thankfully he claimed they’ll be buffing other stuff in return, but still.
Backstab is so freaking easy to counter; way easier than Hundred Blades. You don’t even need to see the Thief coming. Just dodge AFTER you get hit by CnD and they’re still not gonna get the Backstab itself in. Worst case scenario they used a poison to hold you, and you’ll have to pop a skill to break it first, which is no worse than having to break out of the Stun used by a Warrior for Hundred Blades. The damage itself sure as hell is not greater, and requires specific traits as well as at least two utilities dedicated to it.

How can you possibly compare Hundred Blades to backstab. 3.5s channel where you cannot move vs instant damage.

Warriors can have a higher damage output with killshot and hundred blades. You can’t just walk away from that 3,5s channel (it’s EVEN shorter with frenzy ~ 1,75s!). Okay, killshot requires you to build up adrenaline and hundred blades needs your target to stand still and face tank it. But warriors also stun their opponents to achieve that hit-combo. The counter to these burst builds is to have your finger on a stun break or blind at the right time. That’s not hard. But it’s hard if someone can’t manage to finish a “tower jumping puzzle” and plays 7 alts at the same time for about 20 hours each since release. The casual userbase will complain – there are not many complaints from “higher tier” sPvP-ranked guilds/teams.

As traits, they do. You realize that as a Guardian you also get a crap load of Blocking?
Are you actually trying to complain that your Guardian is not as tough as a Thief? How is anyone even taking that seriously!

Crapload = 3 at most if you are traited and have one up at the start of a fight, otherwise its 2. This is also assuming you are fighting 1v1 and not other players aoeing you taking your shield away which is always the case.

SKuDDer.1860:

the problem is you never see them coming to do the first attack, they could be 900 range away, then they use stealth, warp, steal cnd backstab, then finish you off assuming you are alive still.

And again, you don´t know what you´re talking about….
Thief doesn´t go Stealth, then shadowstep….
He shadowsteps (you see him and the dmg received from mug, then he finishes the C&D skill (and that´s the moment he goes stealthy) and then he must position for backstab = so you can dodge and simply avoid that/stunbreak if he uses poison/blink/lightning flash/ any other ability that gets you from melee range or just rotate like a mad and make yourself practically unhittable by the full backstab dmg…

Warriors can have a higher damage output with killshot and hundred blades. You can’t just walk away from that 3,5s channel. Okay, killshot requires you to build up adrenaline and hundred blades needs your target to stand still and face tank it. But warriors also stun their opponents to achieve that hit-combo. The counter to these burst builds is to have your finger on a stun break or blind at the right time. That’s not hard. But it’s hard if someone can’t manage to finish a “tower jumping puzzle” and plays 7 alts at the same time for about 20 hours each since release. The casual user base will complain – there are not many complaints from high tier sPvP-ranked guilds/teams.

Your first problem is you said this: sPvP-ranked guilds/teams. This whole thread is based around WvWvW. SPvP is a separate entity where stats are not even close to being the same.

What does completing a puzzle have to do with anything? I completed this so I must be legendary? I beat clocktower

@ Tribune.

I agree that there are a large percentage of players who struggle in a PvP situation, some don’t react in time, make poor decisions, don’t position properly, don’t use stun breakers etc… etc… and that definitely plays into peoples perceptions when they get killed by someone.

I have yet to speak to anyone, ever, anywhere who has stated that Elementalist’s are OP :P And as for the thief I play with, I duo with this player daily, I watch him down players before I even get into range, repeatedly. I am going from 1st hand experience of what I see him doing, he tells me how he does it.

And as for the “3 shot” not existing, it’s not existing because YOU are saying it doesn’t exist.. I have combat log screenshots + fraps footage of this in action.

Alpha strike builds like this are not good for any game, it leads to calls of unbalance and rightly so. People are not calling for the profession to be nerfed into the ground, they are calling for balance.

Fletch.3572:

sorrow.2364:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

I

Want some suggestions?

- Backstab should get a maximum of 6k damage critical on a squishy glass cannon build.
[etc.]

My text sarcasm meter is off, this serious?

I thought he was trolling.

Leave the burst, adjust the stealth mechanics associated with it.

Loco.4561:

@ Tribune.

I agree that there are a large percentage of players who struggle in a PvP situation, some don’t react in time, make poor decisions, don’t position properly, don’t use stun breakers etc… etc… and that definitely plays into peoples perceptions when they get killed by someone.

I have yet to speak to anyone, ever, anywhere who has stated that Elementalist’s are OP :P And as for the thief I play with, I duo with this player daily, I watch him down players before I even get into range, repeatedly. I am going from 1st hand experience of what I see him doing, he tells me how he does it.

And as for the “3 shot” not existing, it’s not existing because YOU are saying it doesn’t exist.. I have combat log screenshots + fraps footage of this in action.

Alpha strike builds like this are not good for any game, it leads to calls of unbalance and rightly so. People are not calling for the profession to be nerfed into the ground, they are calling for balance.

Then tell us how you alpha-strike (3 key presses) is done (gear, skills, traits, runes and sigils). Then we can evaluate whether it’s possible or not. I know that BS can crit for well over 13k-15k+ on a glass cannon elementalist/thief – but that doesn’t mean that he didn’t deserve it:

• Skilled/traited for low survivability / health / toughness ? check!
• Lowest health pool and not the highest armor tier? check!
• No situational awareness or preparedness for thieves (stunbreakers or anticipation of thief moment etc.)? check!
• No team to even the kill count? check!

Then, dear Loco, the opponent has to die. He himself specced for squishyness to obtain other advantages. Then he has to die if he’s moving alone through “enemy territory” etc.

Until you post the combo that one of your friend’s using (such a skilled player) – that didn’t happen. More anecdotes from friends of friends.

Pyrial.2917:

Leave the burst, adjust the stealth mechanics associated with it.

Yeah well that’s the problem, I don’t think they can fix the rendering of players in WvWvW easily, so to counter they are going to have to adjust the skills. Technically speaking thieves are inadvertently exploiting a bug.

Tribune.3782:

Loco.4561:

@ Tribune.

I agree that there are a large percentage of players who struggle in a PvP situation, some don’t react in time, make poor decisions, don’t position properly, don’t use stun breakers etc… etc… and that definitely plays into peoples perceptions when they get killed by someone.

I have yet to speak to anyone, ever, anywhere who has stated that Elementalist’s are OP :P And as for the thief I play with, I duo with this player daily, I watch him down players before I even get into range, repeatedly. I am going from 1st hand experience of what I see him doing, he tells me how he does it.

And as for the “3 shot” not existing, it’s not existing because YOU are saying it doesn’t exist.. I have combat log screenshots + fraps footage of this in action.

Alpha strike builds like this are not good for any game, it leads to calls of unbalance and rightly so. People are not calling for the profession to be nerfed into the ground, they are calling for balance.

Then tell us how you alpha-strike (3 key presses) is done (gear, skills, traits, runes and sigils). Then we can evaluate whether it’s possible or not. I know that BS can crit for well over 13k-15k+ on a glass cannon elementalist/thief – but that doesn’t mean that he didn’t deserve it:

• Skilled/traited for low survivability / health / toughness ? check!
• Lowest health pool and not the highest armor tier? check!
• No situational awareness or preparedness for thieves (stunbreakers or anticipation of thief moment etc.)? check!
• No team to even the kill count? check!

Then, dear Loco, the opponent has to die. He himself specced for squishyness to obtain other advantages. Then he has to die if he’s moving alone through “enemy territory” etc.

Until you post the combo that one of your friend’s using (such a skilled player) – that didn’t happen. More anecdotes from friends of friends.

So tribune, its ok for a thief to do 9k dmg with one hit to a non glass cannon build? They can’t buff armor or toughness anymore otherwise they would make warriors and guardians too strong. So they are forced to adjust the raw burst of abilities such as this.

SKuDDer.1860:

Pyrial.2917:

Leave the burst, adjust the stealth mechanics associated with it.

Yeah well that’s the problem, I don’t think they can fix the rendering of players in WvWvW easily, so to counter they are going to have to adjust the skills. Technically speaking thieves are inadvertently exploiting a bug.

They definitively should fix that stuff (or improve the situation) and then let the “meta” unfold over time. Solid balance decision.

SKuDDer.1860:

Pyrial.2917:

Leave the burst, adjust the stealth mechanics associated with it.

Yeah well that’s the problem, I don’t think they can fix the rendering of players in WvWvW easily, so to counter they are going to have to adjust the skills. Technically speaking thieves are inadvertently exploiting a bug.

All classes with single-target channeling dps skills also inadvertently exploit a bug while tracking Thieves in stealth/using pets/illusions to do the same, so that needs adjusting too. And it unfortunately counts even for my own class (elementalist).
This only proofs that without fixes, balance cannot be done…

Hehe, did you understand that ranged < melee dmg in this game? It definitely looks that way, I can´t deliver 8K dmg with my pistols or shortbow and its only for 900 range… And even with my backstab (if you´re still looking at the WvW screenshot, you just know nothing about the game – If I create lvl 1 mesmer and go to WvW, I will be punished with these hits too, but not because backstab is OP, but because a low lvl char sux in WvW, just like that…)

now now…im not complaining about the thief doing instagib damage, i am complaining because thief is the only class in the game that can deliver such high damage using only 2 braincell, you keep defend your class i understand, but is so funny when u think the only issue is about bad players, when in fact the bad player is usually a THIEF…
you are all running on a FOTM class…the average skill level of the thief player is none but STILL u can kill people and seems like thief plyers are the only one who understand the game, do yourself a favor, and i am not trolling, I jumped myself on Spvp with no knowledge of thief class and it was literally facerolling players just banging my fingers on the keyboard. Stop QQ and face the truth…your class is broken, and without a broken class you are not so good, that’s what u fear.

Tribune.3782:

SKuDDer.1860:

Pyrial.2917:

Leave the burst, adjust the stealth mechanics associated with it.

Yeah well that’s the problem, I don’t think they can fix the rendering of players in WvWvW easily, so to counter they are going to have to adjust the skills. Technically speaking thieves are inadvertently exploiting a bug.

They definitively should fix that stuff (or improve the situation) and then let the “meta” unfold over time. Solid balance decision.

The burst is still a bit much, 3 skills being able to output anywhere from 12-20k damage, all instant. Its very hard even for a “good” player to dodge this combo.

the other builds are NOT viable for pvp except burst damage /END

SKuDDer.1860:

So tribune, its ok for a thief to do 9k dmg with one hit to a non glass cannon build? They can’t buff armor or toughness anymore otherwise they would make warriors and guardians too strong. So they are forced to adjust the raw burst of abilities such as this.

If the thief could land a 9k hit on a non glass cannon player then the thief isleft with:

• around 12k hp (low vitality)
• “CD” on stealth
• squishyness (low toughness – low effective hp)
• vulnerability to conditions

If we assume that he’s now facing a (non-anchor but a balanced/solid) warrior with around 15k-18k hp (after BS combo has landed) it looks like a fair fight. But there are other situations. A thief could decide to leave after his combo because it didn’t do well and that’s fine, too. He either has to fight or leave. The latter will cause people to go to forums and complain. But that’s the mischievous character of a thief. The hit and run, mobility, possible instability in exchange for damage and vice versa is a fun and unique mechanic compared to the other professions. If Arenanet decides through their internal testing that it’s overpowered without drawbacks and that they want to please more casual masses then it’s fine, too. The above average players will cope with it and develop new strategies to compete or support the team well enough.

I understand nerfing Heartseeker, I called for it, but if you’re going to lower the damage on backstab, give me another reason to use stealth-based crit builds. Backstab is the ‘fun button to push’ for a dagger crit build, and it works well because of how much setup it requires. You can’t spam it because of the stealth requirement, and you even need to be behind an often moving target for it to be worthwhile at all.

How about you lower backstab’s damage by 10% and let it apply 5 stacks of vulnerability for 5 or so seconds? Then it gives it some utility, lowers the spike damage, and allows the lost damage to come over time from increased damage due to vuln?

You could just add bleeds and lower initial damage, but that does nothing for crit builds, and makes it too similar to pistol IMO.

Never, I could agree with that.

SKuDDer.1860:

Never, I could agree with that.

However I still think MUG should be moved to at least the 20 slot trait.

SKuDDer.1860:

SKuDDer.1860:

Never, I could agree with that.

However I still think MUG should be moved to at least the 20 slot trait.

I agree with mug, overpowered considereing it is just a trait skill., i would rather put it it the grand master trait line 30

SKuDDer.1860:

SKuDDer.1860:

Never, I could agree with that.

However I still think MUG should be moved to at least the 20 slot trait.

I wouldn’t beef about that, so long as we’re fairly compensated. Remove the +5% dagger damage trait and add one that increases bleed duration by 10%. That might make it okay to move Mug.

I don’t understand how they could nerf bs. I fought a guardian and bs him like 20 times. He was very resilient. I lost to him 4/5 fights.

People who get ripped in wvw to bs need better gear. People in spvp do not get ripped by bs…

Complete bs this is getting nerfed.

just bad players whining, move along please…

Swinsk, if you are having issues then you aren’t geared or specced right, or aren’t performing your combos in the right order. If you have the right gear, and perform the easy combo, there really is little even the best of players can do about it.

There are a lot of “high tier” tournament thieves who can’t properly deal with any anchor (such as guardians, warriors or even necromancers with certain speccs that are currently in trend). They just have to wait for assistance. It’s not like you can kill everyone in a wink. But that’s anecdotal knowlege that I critizied before.

On my guardian, I rip thieves apart unless I’m not paying attention. Guardian’s have almost a new health bar every 30 seconds with the signet heal, and between aegis and blinds from everywhere, it’s pretty easy to negate a lot of thief damage. Add retaliation and a little anticipation (when the thief disappears, expect the backstab) you can do pretty well. Even the bleed or poison thieves fall pretty quick because of my insane amounts of condition removal. If anything, Guardian is almost as easymode as Warrior.

so that’s why my condition build thief is so useless !!!

I feel like all the counter arguments in this thread are from thieves in sPvP :\

Cond-thieves are in general not up to par with other professions which were skilled for conditions. Venom-share and bleed builds are okay-ish, but it lacks something.

The problem with bleeds is you negate the whole thing with a single condition cure. The problem with venoms is they last a few seconds, but have half a minute of cooldown. Both situations lead to the main issue where a damage over time build is shut down so quickly and has to just wait around until cooldowns are back up (caltrops, any venom, spike trap) or initiative is full again.

Shilian.5873:

now now…im not complaining about the thief doing instagib damage, i am complaining because thief is the only class in the game that can deliver such high damage using only 2 braincell, you keep defend your class i understand, but is so funny when u think the only issue is about bad players, when in fact the bad player is usually a THIEF…
you are all running on a FOTM class…the average skill level of the thief player is none but STILL u can kill people and seems like thief plyers are the only one who understand the game, do yourself a favor, and i am not trolling, I jumped myself on Spvp with no knowledge of thief class and it was literally facerolling players just banging my fingers on the keyboard. Stop QQ and face the truth…your class is broken, and without a broken class you are not so good, that’s what u fear.

I can assure you that I don´t even play Thief in the sPvP or tPvP, my main is an Elementalist, Thief is alt. But when I´m playing an Ele, I have no problem with avoiding this so called OP burst dmg, but of course, if I fail to avoid it (it happens ocassionally), I get downed and it´s my own fault (I´m running neither bunker build, because that just don´t fit to my idea of spellcaster, nor with the D/D weapon set. I use balanced attunedancing build.) because I didn´t have the situational awareness…
Please be aware that this game is not WoW, neither AOC, nor Warhammer: Online.
For every build, there should be a counter-build and that is what I hope Anet wants (was like that in GW1). This game is not about 1vs1, and any WvW encounter is hardly of any evidence of class balance. Deal with it please and let the devs do their work, don´t make them read these useless whine posts, while they should be reading a constructive feedback on these forums…

STRanger.5120:

Shilian.5873:

now now…im not complaining about the thief doing instagib damage, i am complaining because thief is the only class in the game that can deliver such high damage using only 2 braincell, you keep defend your class i understand, but is so funny when u think the only issue is about bad players, when in fact the bad player is usually a THIEF…
you are all running on a FOTM class…the average skill level of the thief player is none but STILL u can kill people and seems like thief plyers are the only one who understand the game, do yourself a favor, and i am not trolling, I jumped myself on Spvp with no knowledge of thief class and it was literally facerolling players just banging my fingers on the keyboard. Stop QQ and face the truth…your class is broken, and without a broken class you are not so good, that’s what u fear.

I can assure you that I don´t even play Thief in the sPvP or tPvP, my main is an Elementalist, Thief is alt. But when I´m playing an Ele, I have no problem with avoiding this so called OP burst dmg, but of course, if I fail to avoid it (it happens ocassionally), I get downed and it´s my own fault (I´m running neither bunker build, because that just don´t fit to my idea of spellcaster, nor with the D/D weapon set. I use balanced attunedancing build.) because I didn´t have the situational awareness…
Please be aware that this game is not WoW, neither AOC, nor Warhammer: Online.
For every build, there should be a counter-build and that is what I hope Anet wants (was like that in GW1). This game is not about 1vs1, and any WvW encounter is hardly of any evidence of class balance. Deal with it please and let the devs do their work, don´t make them read these useless whine posts, while they should be reading a constructive feedback on these forums…

I like you.