Guild Wars 2

Ashanor. Steal as it is now alone packs great deal of mobility of what should be most mobile class. Lowering damage of backstab by itself is not an option because not only glass cannon bs builds use backstab.
Moving Mug is not that awesome because whoever is going to use mug will spec heavily in that tree anyway and secondly there is not much other options to pick from whole tree. A doubt a-net will be willing to reform traits so early when technical issues are still present.
I defend thieves because I am one. I never played backstab build, i never relied on and abused stealth rendering, but all the things people want to be nerfed will hit me more than they will hit the mentioned glass cannon bs build.
Somehow it seems people believe in power of QQ since when pistol whip was nerfed in a most wrong way.

SKuDDer.1860:

Shizzlenit.7648:

I’ve got hit by a 15k 100B the other day… does this mean we have to nerf warriors? No, it doesn’t. It means i have to play better against a warrior next time and NOT GET HIT BY 100B.

Or i could just create a bunch of “nerf 100B” threads and laugh at them once they’re nerfed… seems what the majority is doing anyway…

The problem with this is two things. Its not the basis of their attack every 1 minute, they might be able to do this once if all the conditions are right, but thieves can very easily do their combo with little effort.

When you talk about backstabs that actually hit for big numbers against decent players (and realistically your guardian build is offensive leaning overall and not particularly durable) there is definitely some effect and cooldown stacking going on there somewhat similarly to the 100B warrior example. Typical backstabs that you can repeat and sustain against a decent target (and don’t have things like 3 orb buff, etc) are gonna be closer to 5k, even in an offensive build and take just as much effort as any other class to stay on target repeatedly. And even executed right, the actual sustained damage isn’t that good.

It all comes down to avoiding that initial burst with skilled play or finding a way to recover, just like you are forced to do against other class’s burst specs.

You mentioned playing on Blackgate to cast yourself as an expert… We played Blackgate a few weeks ago. Offensive oriented specs (sacrificing durability) are pretty effective for their WvW style, so I’m not advising you to switch into some sort of bunker build or even a better balanced one. Blackgate was really good in WvW because they are exceptionally good at marshaling their zerg and making sure every fight they engage in they do so with 2x+ numbers to roll over opposition quickly with mostly offensive built players. They avoid fights that cannot be won decisively and put their players in the right places on the map. Combined with good timezone coverage, it’s extremely effective. However, I found the individual player ability to be below even most middle-tier servers. In small scale fighting, their players were generally ineffective and easy to kill. So, you rightly set yourself up to succeed as part of a zerg, but you should also expect to be vulnerable (and die) to individual targeting on occasion because you’re putting team success over individual success.

Yes, please, nerf the thief more because someone has a problem with it in PvP. So what can a thief do against a warrior or a guardian after you nerf backstab? Well, uh…

Weakest class overall, and this will be the third MAJOR skill nerf you do against it. you guys become more like Blizzard every day.

I also wonder whether Coolmoose’s screenshots (cf. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Backstab-time-to-nerf/page/5#post606858 and the following posts) also illustrate a cumulation of

a) pre-signet nerf numbers (~35% more damage on BS)
b) effects of orbs (e.g. +50 stats each)
c) possible squishy targets (necromancer and a thief/ranger (?))
d) conditions on targets – fresh 80s or even upleveld targets (denied by him)
e) temporary boons (e.g. food, team)
e) some “one in a hundred”-hit(s)
f) no garanteed reproducibilty (everything has to crit, geared enemies, e.g. in sPvP environment)
g) him being an absolute glass cannon (hp)
etc.

Tribune.3782:

I also wonder whether Coolmoose’s screenshots (cf. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Backstab-time-to-nerf/page/5#post606991) also illustrate a cumulation of

a) pre-signet nerf numbers (~35% more damage on BS)
b) effects of orbs (e.g. 50 stats+ each)
c) possible squishy targets (Necromancer and a Thief/Ranger (?))
d) conditions on targets – fresh 80s or even upleveld targets (denied by him)
e) temporary boons (e.g. food, team)
e) some “one in a hundred”-hit(s)
f) no garanteed reproducibilty (everything has to crit, geared enemies, e.g. in sPvP environment)
g) him being an absolute glass cannon (hp)
etc.

I’m running a 114% crit damage thief and i have never hit that high on a lvl 80 player. Not even close after the Assassin Signet nerf.

I’ve done some 20k+ on low lvls tho.

It all comes down to avoiding that initial burst with skilled play or finding a way to recover, just like you are forced to do against other class’s burst specs.

I have yet to see any examples of how people are suppose to avoid this burst. Randomly dodge roll all the time, seems feasible.

How about reduce your teleport distance to 600 range, after teleport apply a 2-3 second debuff that prevents you from stealthing. this would give people time to see thieves load, and require thieves to be more skilled to get their chain right.

It would also get rid of the annoying infinite stealthing issues and easy escapes.

I’m pure glass cannon, yes…

And this was pre nerf.

BUT, I have other screen shots at home “i’m currently at work” of my hitting for 16-17k after nerf.

I still use Assassin signet… but as you can see from my hp…. Full Exotics including jewelery. I am pure glass cannon , I have no HP.

Its very easy to counter me, if you know how to do so.

Both the targets with the screenshots I have provided are hitting a level 80 PRE NERF. I know only one SS shows the 80 laying down.. But regardless I know what i’m looking from and dont waste my time taking screenshots of hitting lower level people.

Even after the nerf as I said I still hit for 15-17.5k

If you have questions about my build I would be more than happy to chat with you in IM.

Thanks

SKuDDer.1860:

It all comes down to avoiding that initial burst with skilled play or finding a way to recover, just like you are forced to do against other class’s burst specs.

I have yet to see any examples of how people are suppose to avoid this burst. Randomly dodge roll all the time, seems feasible.

I agree… for someone to guess when someone will Steal, Cloak and dagger, sig and stab would be hard to predict lol. It literally all happens within 1 second.

I just want to know which profession except thief can pop out that damage in that time without the use of quickness.
Sorry guys, but backstab feel ridiculous to me. All high damage skills are channeled, have massive casting time or easy to evade.
Backstab deal at least 4k damage and a maximum of 10k, is almost instant and give the victim no clue when the backstab will come..
I don’t care that you have low health and you are squishy and blah blah blah. You have stealth to compensate which is the most powerful defensive mechanic in the game.

Creston Whitefall.6380:

Yes, please, nerf the thief more because someone has a problem with it in PvP. So what can a thief do against a warrior or a guardian after you nerf backstab? Well, uh…

Weakest class overall, and this will be the third MAJOR skill nerf you do against it. you guys become more like Blizzard every day.

Weakest class overall

I know it might be a bit disheartening to have your favourite profession get nerfed, but if you think a thief is the weakest class in GW2, you should try half of the remaining options. Try a ranger, a necromancer or a non-bunker elementalist, and get a feel of what it means to be weak and what it means to deal with being weak.

sorrow.2364:

I just want to know which profession except thief can pop out that damage in that time without the use of quickness.
Sorry guys, but backstab feel ridiculous to me. All high damage skills are channeled, have massive casting time or easy to evade.
Backstab deal at least 4k damage and a maximum of 10k, is almost instant and give the victim no clue when the backstab will come..
I don’t care that you have low health and you are squishy and blah blah blah. You have stealth to compensate which is the most powerful defensive mechanic in the game.

No it’s not. You can still be hit in stealth.

Shizzlenit.7648:

sorrow.2364:

I just want to know which profession except thief can pop out that damage in that time without the use of quickness.
Sorry guys, but backstab feel ridiculous to me. All high damage skills are channeled, have massive casting time or easy to evade.
Backstab deal at least 4k damage and a maximum of 10k, is almost instant and give the victim no clue when the backstab will come..
I don’t care that you have low health and you are squishy and blah blah blah. You have stealth to compensate which is the most powerful defensive mechanic in the game.

No it’s not. You can still be hit in stealth.

Oh, yes, of course. Bad thing that the enemy has no clue where you are most the times. If the situation goes bad all you have to do is stealth and dodge away and you are safe, there is no chance your enemy know where you are if you stay away enough. This is an amazing defensive mechanic.

Shizzlenit.7648:

sorrow.2364:

I just want to know which profession except thief can pop out that damage in that time without the use of quickness.
Sorry guys, but backstab feel ridiculous to me. All high damage skills are channeled, have massive casting time or easy to evade.
Backstab deal at least 4k damage and a maximum of 10k, is almost instant and give the victim no clue when the backstab will come..
I don’t care that you have low health and you are squishy and blah blah blah. You have stealth to compensate which is the most powerful defensive mechanic in the game.

Exactly, I have faced many opponents that had no issues with me. I have been one shot by warriors the most.

All classes have there uses. But I have already started prepping my next build Just in case the nerf makes my current one pointless.

No it’s not. You can still be hit in stealth.

Shizzlenit.7648:

No it’s not. You can still be hit in stealth.

You can be randomly hit while in stealth, but chances are, if you are good, you won’t, unless you’re crazy and decide to teleport right at the middle of a zerg’s aoe. More often than not, your opponent is going to waste their time creating fields around them or hitting the air in hopes of hitting a thief.

Stealth is an amazingly defensive mechanic. It requires a little bit of skill, it’s not an invulnerability button, but it’s extremely strong.

Once again. The problem isn’t Backstab. It’s the comination of C&D, Steal, Backstab hitting all at once. If Backstab is nerfed, it us nerfed for specs that it isn’t overpowered in and becomes useless. Interrupting C&D with steal is the problem. Teleports need to be fixed to cancel current action, across the board.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Shizzlenit.7648:

No it’s not. You can still be hit in stealth.

You can be randomly hit while in stealth, but chances are, if you are good, you won’t, unless you’re crazy and decide to teleport right at the middle of a zerg’s aoe. More often than not, your opponent is going to waste their time creating fields around them or hitting the air in hopes of hitting a thief.

Stealth is an amazingly defensive mechanic. It requires a little bit of skill, it’s not an invulnerability button, but it’s extremely strong.

Im not saying it is a bad one, its a very good one indeed. But it’s definetly not “the best in the game” like someone stated.

I’m not sure if there’s a “better” one though. Invulnerability makes you more reliably immune to damage, but it does little to allow you to escape and nothing to allow you to hide.

Once again. The problem isn’t Backstab. It’s the comination of C&D, Steal, Backstab hitting all at once. If Backstab is nerfed, it us nerfed for specs that it isn’t overpowered in and becomes useless. Interrupting C&D with steal is the problem. Teleports need to be fixed to cancel current action, across the board.

Teleports NOT canceling current actions is a cool mechanic that works very well, and is very fun, with other professions. For example, a Mesmer with Blink or an Elementalist with Lightning Flash can spend one utility slot to make sure their self-root bursts hit reliably.

Fixing a mechanic to balance a single skill sequence from a single profession, while ruining perfectly balanced strategies from other classes, is not a good idea. Clearly, as I’ve shown, the problem is not with the teleport mechanic itself, because it works greatly in other situations.

Shizzlenit.7648:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Shizzlenit.7648:

No it’s not. You can still be hit in stealth.

You can be randomly hit while in stealth, but chances are, if you are good, you won’t, unless you’re crazy and decide to teleport right at the middle of a zerg’s aoe. More often than not, your opponent is going to waste their time creating fields around them or hitting the air in hopes of hitting a thief.

Stealth is an amazingly defensive mechanic. It requires a little bit of skill, it’s not an invulnerability button, but it’s extremely strong.

Im not saying it is a bad one, its a very good one indeed. But it’s definetly not “the best in the game” like someone stated.

It is the best in the game in my opinion. No defensive mechanic allow you to take potentially no damage at all and is as cheap as stealth is.

Anytime a class in any MMO says “Don’t nerf this Class, instead buff other classes” It’s pretty much 100% in need of a nerf.

Also, Anyone who thinks that you should never nerf a class in an MMO and instead buff other classes in MMO to compete is clearly lacking in knowledge related to game development and clearly lacking a whole lot in understanding Balance in video games.

If 1 class could one shot every other class in the game, you wouldn’t upgrade every other class in the game to one shotting people..You’d nerf the class that could one shot.

I’m sorry you rolled a class that is considered overpowered and lacks skill to play, But them are the ropes……Though to be honest…I shouldn’t feel sorry for any of you…Because you chose to play a Stealth Class, which in every MMO forever has been pretty much always overpowered in some way, and needed a Nerf……

SKuDDer.1860:

It all comes down to avoiding that initial burst with skilled play or finding a way to recover, just like you are forced to do against other class’s burst specs.

I have yet to see any examples of how people are suppose to avoid this burst. Randomly dodge roll all the time, seems feasible.

Well, when you play with as much Berserker’s gear as you have and a glass cannon thief catches you off-guard with all their CD’s available then you probably will (and should) die unless they make mistakes trying to finish you off.

At the same time, if the situation is reversed the thief is an easy kill for you.

If you were playing a more balanced and sustainable guardian build (guardian survivability potential comes from sustainability instead of large effective health pool like a warrior,) you could eat their opening sequence and recover and either kill them or force them to run away eventually if you used all your tools skillfully and were designed to win those types of fights. The problem for you is that would be much closer to a bunker build and not particularly useful for rofl-stomping in the middle of a blackgate zerg. You’re better off playing for damage and just accepting getting jumped occasionally which is the same thing that the thief who jumped you is accepting themselves.

Daeqar.8965:

SKuDDer.1860:

It all comes down to avoiding that initial burst with skilled play or finding a way to recover, just like you are forced to do against other class’s burst specs.

I have yet to see any examples of how people are suppose to avoid this burst. Randomly dodge roll all the time, seems feasible.

Well, when you play with as much Berserker’s gear as you have and a glass cannon thief catches you off-guard with all their CD’s available then you probably will (and should) die unless they make mistakes trying to finish you off.

At the same time, if the situation is reversed the thief is an easy kill for you.

If you were playing a more balanced and sustainable guardian build (guardian survivability potential comes from sustainability instead of large effective health pool like a warrior,) you could eat their opening sequence and recover and either kill them or force them to run away eventually if you used all your tools skillfully and were designed to win those types of fights. The problem for you is that would be much closer to a bunker build and not particularly useful for rofl-stomping in the middle of a blackgate zerg. You’re better off playing for damage and just accepting getting jumped occasionally which is the same thing that the thief who jumped you is accepting themselves.

Its evident you do not know the guardian class very well, the build I am using isn’t all stats toughness/vitality, but it is one of the best/only survivability builds that can do some damage. Take a look at my gear again, everything has toughness/vitality, I should not have to have toughness vitality in every single base/gem slot sacrificing any kind of damage at all(which guardians already do meh daamge) to survive a burst thief…

ill try to keep constructive but..guys

let’s focus on that, u think that’s ok right?

Apparently they do.

But it still is about the same post first nerf.

SKuDDer.1860:

Its evident you do not know the guardian class very well, the build I am using isn’t all stats toughness/vitality, but it is one of the best/only survivability builds that can do some damage. Take a look at my gear again, everything has toughness/vitality, I should not have to have toughness vitality in every single base/gem slot sacrificing any kind of damage at all(which guardians already do meh daamge) to survive a burst thief…

What you just said isn’t true if the link you provided is accurate. You are wearing 6 pieces of Berserker gear. Everything else only has 1 defensive stat. Your Power and crit and crit damage is pumped up very high. You’re not full glass cannon largely because of traits and rune, but you’re not all that far off. Definitely not even a 50/50 balanced. And you’re obviously not running something made for healing or sustainability.

You’re setup to kill the thief before he kills you, not survive or outlast the thief. Your build relies on offense to win, and that won’t work when they catch you with CD’s for a huge opener. Your build is setup to spot them out in the field and be the aggressor. If you’re expecting something else, your gear is all wrong.

with an overall damage decrease of 20% on all the skill..it could still kill players in less than 3 second, i don’t believe u got such a nerf since that video was posted, do you?

Shilian.5873:

with an overall damage decrease of 20% on all the skill..it could still kill players in less than 3 second, i don’t believe u got such a nerf since that video was posted, do you?

We used to have a cooldown that gave +50% damage on next attack, so yeah…it used to make a big number, especially when combined with other buffs.

so: heart seeker nerf, pistol whip nerf, stealth nerf, short bow nerf, Assassin’s Signet nerf, Basilisk Venom nerf and now backstab nerf ???
guys, GTFO …. what is else to take from us ? our virginity too ??

Daeqar.8965:

SKuDDer.1860:

Its evident you do not know the guardian class very well, the build I am using isn’t all stats toughness/vitality, but it is one of the best/only survivability builds that can do some damage. Take a look at my gear again, everything has toughness/vitality, I should not have to have toughness vitality in every single base/gem slot sacrificing any kind of damage at all(which guardians already do meh daamge) to survive a burst thief…

What you just said isn’t true if the link you provided is accurate. You are wearing 6 pieces of Berserker gear. Everything else only has 1 defensive stat. Your Power and crit and crit damage is pumped up very high. You’re not full glass cannon largely because of traits and rune, but you’re not all that far off. Definitely not even a 50/50 balanced. And you’re obviously not running something made for healing or sustainability.

You’re setup to kill the thief before he kills you, not survive or outlast the thief. Your build relies on offense to win, and that won’t work when they catch you with CD’s for a huge opener. Your build is setup to spot them out in the field and be the aggressor. If you’re expecting something else, your gear is all wrong.

So my runes/ my weapons/ me jewelry / my traits are all defensive, but because i put a little bit of berzerk stats i am full bezerker apparently? Its not glass cannon, its not dps, its sustainability build with some damage, you saying I need more then 3000 armor is absurd to survive more then 5 seconds of dps from a thief.

sorrow.2364:

I just want to know which profession except thief can pop out that damage in that time without the use of quickness.
Sorry guys, but backstab feel ridiculous to me. All high damage skills are channeled, have massive casting time or easy to evade.
Backstab deal at least 4k damage and a maximum of 10k, is almost instant and give the victim no clue when the backstab will come..
I don’t care that you have low health and you are squishy and blah blah blah. You have stealth to compensate which is the most powerful defensive mechanic in the game.

Thieves are not the only ones who can deal massive damage, take warriors and Eviscerate, I first tested using methods too maximize the damage at first using For great justice and signet of fury to give me 8 might, and on the thief I took the signets of might trait for 5 stacks of might along with assassins signet for an extra 15%.

Then I tested without any buffs but only traits to see what was more damaging
Thief Traits:
25 Deadly 9 (could of gone to 30 but 50 power and the chance to have 1 more strike with venom and 4 seconds of immobilize isn’t going to do much)
30 Crit 2,3,11
15 trick
Warrior traits
30 Strength 10, 5
30 Discipline 9,12

Now this was not tested in a fair way(could of used executioners extra 20%, or I did not use the empower for more damage per boon) , but it sufficient to prove to you that not all massive damage is done by “channeled skills”.

And just for the “lols” a screenshot of an 11k hit in spvp on a glassy ele ( not useing this setup but as a shout warrior no less)

I didn’t test this fairly but if someone was to you would find the numbers to be similar.

Teleports NOT canceling current actions is a cool mechanic that works very well, and is very fun, with other professions. For example, a Mesmer with Blink or an Elementalist with Lightning Flash can spend one utility slot to make sure their self-root bursts hit reliably.

Fixing a mechanic to balance a single skill sequence from a single profession, while ruining perfectly balanced strategies from other classes, is not a good idea. Clearly, as I’ve shown, the problem is not with the teleport mechanic itself, because it works greatly in other situations.

Ever consider that maybe you shouldn’t be able to make it hit reliably? Maybe it should take a little more practice to make it hit reliably? For instance, it makes C&D way to easy to land.

SKuDDer.1860:

Daeqar.8965:

SKuDDer.1860:

Its evident you do not know the guardian class very well, the build I am using isn’t all stats toughness/vitality, but it is one of the best/only survivability builds that can do some damage. Take a look at my gear again, everything has toughness/vitality, I should not have to have toughness vitality in every single base/gem slot sacrificing any kind of damage at all(which guardians already do meh daamge) to survive a burst thief…

What you just said isn’t true if the link you provided is accurate. You are wearing 6 pieces of Berserker gear. Everything else only has 1 defensive stat. Your Power and crit and crit damage is pumped up very high. You’re not full glass cannon largely because of traits and rune, but you’re not all that far off. Definitely not even a 50/50 balanced. And you’re obviously not running something made for healing or sustainability.

You’re setup to kill the thief before he kills you, not survive or outlast the thief. Your build relies on offense to win, and that won’t work when they catch you with CD’s for a huge opener. Your build is setup to spot them out in the field and be the aggressor. If you’re expecting something else, your gear is all wrong.

So my runes/ my weapons/ me jewelry / my traits are all defensive, but because i put a little bit of berzerk stats i am full bezerker apparently? Its not glass cannon, its not dps, its sustainability build with some damage, you saying I need more then 3000 armor is absurd to survive more then 5 seconds of dps from a thief.

Pardon me for the double post, I run a 2400 armor build in Spvp as a Guardian and have never had a problem with a backstab thief, I have a level 5 guardian so I obviously have a lot less experience then you Skudder with the class , however if the thief is in WvW ( haven’t bothered to check) then stupidly high damage is expected from any burst class, why? In PvE/WvW crit damage can be stacked like a kitten, if we go exotic berserker with jewels and all along with the 5 gold assassins backpack and we have a HUGE damage bonus of 104% critical damage just there, then lets assume the thief ate the +10% and what do we have, 114% crit damage… yes the hits will be huge, but imagine a glass staff ele destroying people in the gates with 114%, or even a warrior with that amount.

DanH.5879:

so: heart seeker nerf, pistol whip nerf, stealth nerf, short bow nerf, and now backstab nerf ???
guys, GTFO …. what is else to take from us ? our virginity too ??

Don’t forget the Assassin’s Signet nerf, Basilisk Venom nef, and the silent unlisted revealed time extension nerf where revealed was changed to happen after the attack instead of beginning.

I knew I should have switched to guardian when I was a level 20 thief and was having trouble taking down single grawls and ettins….then turned around and saw a guardian take on 3 vets by himself.

Well, this should be interesting.

Yeah but you sure wont see a guardian take down a mob in 3 seconds like a thief can.

Ashanor.5319:

Teleports NOT canceling current actions is a cool mechanic that works very well, and is very fun, with other professions. For example, a Mesmer with Blink or an Elementalist with Lightning Flash can spend one utility slot to make sure their self-root bursts hit reliably.

Fixing a mechanic to balance a single skill sequence from a single profession, while ruining perfectly balanced strategies from other classes, is not a good idea. Clearly, as I’ve shown, the problem is not with the teleport mechanic itself, because it works greatly in other situations.

Ever consider that maybe you shouldn’t be able to make it hit reliably? Maybe it should take a little more practice to make it hit reliably? For instance, it makes C&D way to easy to land.

Hmm, Remove the teleport, give 3 seconds stealth on usage of steal(Would reduce the time of the spike greatly), change the trait with gives stealth upon stealing to something else.

Or reduce the range of steal to 300-450 traited to 600

yes…more nerfs….more i said !
i await to see when stealth will be completely removed…

Imperator totius Sylvari.9164:

sorrow.2364:

I just want to know which profession except thief can pop out that damage in that time without the use of quickness.
Sorry guys, but backstab feel ridiculous to me. All high damage skills are channeled, have massive casting time or easy to evade.
Backstab deal at least 4k damage and a maximum of 10k, is almost instant and give the victim no clue when the backstab will come..
I don’t care that you have low health and you are squishy and blah blah blah. You have stealth to compensate which is the most powerful defensive mechanic in the game.

Thieves are not the only ones who can deal massive damage, take warriors and Eviscerate, I first tested using methods too maximize the damage at first using For great justice and signet of fury to give me 8 might, and on the thief I took the signets of might trait for 5 stacks of might along with assassins signet for an extra 15%.

Then I tested without any buffs but only traits to see what was more damaging
Thief Traits:
25 Deadly 9 (could of gone to 30 but 50 power and the chance to have 1 more strike with venom and 4 seconds of immobilize isn’t going to do much)
30 Crit 2,3,11
15 trick
Warrior traits
30 Strength 10, 5
30 Discipline 9,12

Now this was not tested in a fair way(could of used executioners extra 20%, or I did not use the empower for more damage per boon) , but it sufficient to prove to you that not all massive damage is done by “channeled skills”.

And just for the “lols” a screenshot of an 11k hit in spvp on a glassy ele ( not useing this setup but as a shout warrior no less)

I didn’t test this fairly but if someone was to you would find the numbers to be similar.

Eviscerate fall in the category “easy to evade”. Warriors have to build up adrenaline for at least 5-6 seconds to land a full damage eviscerate and, also if they fully build up the adrenaline, it is still easy to figure out when a warrior is landing an eviscerate because of the obvious animation.
Of course I think that when eviscerate fails the adrenaline should be unloaded, but this is another topic.

Anyway, the numbers of eviscerate are still lower than the numbers of backstab and, most important, eviscerate is not spammable like backstab is in combination with CnD.

Like I said in the previous thread about this topic, the things that need to be nerfed are the timing and sequencing of the combo (and a direct nerf to Mug damage seems inevitable).

Backstab itself doesn’t really need to be adjusted. If you combine the following tweaks, the result is pretty much 100x more balanced for the lame 30k combo, and still viable (if not moreso) for normal backstab builds:

1. Change CND to deal damage at the beginning of the animation and stealth at the end of the animation. Extend the animation time by 0.25 seconds to compensate the earlier damage.

2. Nerf the Mug damage directly, possibly splitting part of it off into a 5x stack of Bleed. (e.g., reduce the raw power-based damage by 50-75%, and adding 5 stacks of bleed).

3. Increase the animation of Backstab to 1.0 seconds, but enable the damage bonus from the sides in addition to the rear.

This combination of changes does very little to reduce the power of any single ability — in fact, it makes Backstab itself more viable. It also makes CND more reliable as a stealth mechanism. The critical change though is that it spaces out the damage so that the opponent can use defensive capabilities if they are on their toes. The Thief may even have to hold their Backstab a half second to wait a dodge roll. Zomg, combat awareness mixing from both sides of the fight.

It also strictly disables the masking/abstraction of the CND preload when combo’d with Steal — forcing the Thief to be in melee range for basically the full animation, rather than just the last 0.1 seconds.

How is it spammable? CnD costs 6 ini so you can get 2 in before you run out, there’s a 4 second revealed time in between stealths, and his venoms will be gone during the 2nd one, making it that much harder to get behind you.

what if we remove the backstabs positional requirement, and change its name to assault stab

but we will make the new backstab a channeling skill of 5 hits,

so that the enemies can evade the skill

SKuDDer.1860:

So my runes/ my weapons/ me jewelry / my traits are all defensive, but because i put a little bit of berzerk stats i am full bezerker apparently? Its not glass cannon, its not dps, its sustainability build with some damage, you saying I need more then 3000 armor is absurd to survive more then 5 seconds of dps from a thief.

It’s a matter of total stats and where they end up. You have some defensive stats tucked away here and there, but the majority of your stats are shoved into direct damage with power, crit, and crit damage. The quantity of defensive stats is small in comparison.

And any build comes down to situational analysis. The strength of every build depends on situation. Outnumbered or numbers advantage? Large group, small pack, or solo? Terrain? Opponent? Initiative? (who jumps who) Short encounter or long? With or without cooldowns? Ranged or close? What’s the objective? Stuff like that. Getting jumped with a damage spike is not an area where your build shines. Effective health pool is not particularly good and neither is sustained healing (if it was a sustainability build like you say, you’d have some +healing gear,) so anyone that can take a big initial bite out of your health bar puts you too close to dying. (It could be worse – you could be a glass cannon thief getting jumped.) You could easily make a build in any class that does excel at handling that type of situation through a multitude of methods, but there are always tradeoffs involved.

Assuming you want to stick with your build because you like what it does in other situations, you would want to focus on controlling the situations you enter such that you’re not exposing yourself to getting jumped and you’re the one attacking the vulnerable glass cannon thief and knocking them around while their frail health bar melts away. Expecting to succeed in a bad situation just isn’t realistic.

Oldgrimm.8521:

what if we remove the backstabs positional requirement, and change its name to assault stab

but we will make the new backstab a channeling skill of 5 hits,

so that the enemies can evade the skill

Also, change the class name to “kitten Warrior” because without burst, there’s no role for thieves.

“Experts at stealth and surprise, kitten Warriors can move through the shadows, vanish into thin air, then break into a dance because you know he’s not going to be doing any damage after the weekly nerfs.”

Shinjo.6092:

How is it spammable? CnD costs 6 ini so you can get 2 in before you run out, there’s a 4 second revealed time in between stealths, and his venoms will be gone during the 2nd one, making it that much harder to get behind you.

1) Revealed lasts 3 seconds, I think thieves with just a dodge can survive 3 seconds
2) Backstab requires no initiative use other than CnD
3) You usually have other stealth skills in your bar, like Smoke Bomb, Shadow Refuge or Hide in Shadows. Tecnically, each time you are stealthed is a potential backstab landed
4) Oh wait, you actually need a venom to land backstab? You just have to press 1 untill you hit…

Shinjo.6092:

Also, change the class name to “kitten Warrior” because without burst, there’s no role for thieves.

“Experts at stealth and surprise, kitten Warriors can move through the shadows, vanish into thin air, then break into a dance because you know he’s not going to be doing any damage after the weekly nerfs.”

You have no idea on how’s the damage on other professions. Also if ANet cut off thieves’ damage by 50% you still have pretty good damage.

my biggest issues are:
1) people complain about the thief in wvw areas which can pit a lvl 80 in full exotic vs a lvl 20
2) people watch these thief videos on youtube from months ago and are not current with our ability now
3) people complain stealth is broken in wvw when really its just a rendering issue
4) thief glass cannon is counter to all other glass cannons… learn to build

I mean really we already get nerfed every week while every other class gets a buff. Its only a matter of time till I get told sorry no thief for dungeon or sorry but in pvp your not worth it we would rather take a necro or a warrior

sorrow.2364:

4) Oh wait, you actually need a venom to land backstab? You just have to press 1 untill you hit…

…

You have no idea on how’s the damage on other professions. Also if ANet cut off thieves’ damage by 50% you still have pretty good damage.

I personally run a more survivability oriented build with D/P and no venoms (although I do have a lot of swiftness) so I have pretty much zero control on the opponent when trying to land a backstab. Obtaining opponents backside like that is pretty unreliable if they are good and just move around a lot. If you don’t have a form of shadowstep off CD, you might not even get to face-stab for the half damage. Using things like venoms or possibly even a preemptive dancing dagger for D/D users makes it work a whole lot better. (My build is more about them not being able to kill me, so I make up for it with lots of opportunities and learning their movement pattern.) You can say it’s skill-less button spam with things like steal and devourer venom added to the combo, but once those are on CD it’s a lot more of an in-combat skill check between the two players to see who can manuever better and dig deeper into their toolbox.

Implying that thieves have literally double the damage of other classes is completely baseless. Most all of the classes can put out similar dps if they gear and trait similarly.

thiefs already are hard to get into dungeons and all the usse of thief in wvw are only in their mobility and cluster bomb.
Thief cannot tank, heal, buff, protect anyone. So they are left for damage. And outside shortbow there is nothing to chose from.
Non-burst thief is not viable. That alone justifies thieves superior SINGLE TARGET burst in a game with hundreds of players. Point me at some other class that can only do damage reliably.

Also, people that complain seem to want to be able to do the same the thief does with their class, for example they want to down enemies in few seconds as guardians or necros, or engineers. Although these classes have a lot of CC or support, I have lost to them when they knew what they were doing.

I also tried playing support/defensive builds with my thief but I found finishing on sPvP with no kills most of the time. That is not the purpose of thief class. The only plus this class has is that he can burst dps and kill an opponent when he is bad to average player.

I will say it one more time, if this build is nerfed GW2 will change a lot the following months in regard to class balance, and I fear to the worse.

I lost fights against hunters/engineers even when using 5 signets(25 stacks of might) and trying to burst them down, but they won because they had the correct build and experience with their class. So how am I going to beat them if this gets nerfed, when I can’t even beat them now?

sorrow.2364:

Shinjo.6092:

How is it spammable? CnD costs 6 ini so you can get 2 in before you run out, there’s a 4 second revealed time in between stealths, and his venoms will be gone during the 2nd one, making it that much harder to get behind you.

1) Revealed lasts 3 seconds, I think thieves with just a dodge can survive 3 seconds

That’s what you consider spammable? Cause you can do 2 in 3 seconds?

sorrow.2364:

2) Backstab requires no initiative use other than CnD
3) You usually have other stealth skills in your bar, like Smoke Bomb, Shadow Refuge or Hide in Shadows. Tecnically, each time you are stealthed is a potential backstab landed
4) Oh wait, you actually need a venom to land backstab? You just have to press 1 untill you hit…

Do you know why they called it backstab instead of frontstab, or sideways face stab? It’s because you actually have to get BEHIND the guy to do full damage. And if you’re using your heals and gettaway moves for backstab, then you’re NOT using your heals and gettaway moves to…well…heal and gettaway, making it THAT much easier to take down the glass cannon thief.

Shinjo.6092:

Also, change the class name to “kitten Warrior” because without burst, there’s no role for thieves.

“Experts at stealth and surprise, kitten Warriors can move through the shadows, vanish into thin air, then break into a dance because you know he’s not going to be doing any damage after the weekly nerfs.”

You have no idea on how’s the damage on other professions. Also if ANet cut off thieves’ damage by 50% you still have pretty good damage.
[/quote]

Are you talking about burst damage or sustained damage? Are you surprised that not every other profession has burst damage? Or, if you’re talking about sustained damage, what do you think happens to a thief’s damage when their initiative runs out?

Ok this is my first post on the forums, as this nerfing of high damage builds is uncalled for. I have two lvl 80 Chars. My first was a Norn Guard. He has all lvl 80 Exotic Karma Gear for armor, focusing on Power/Toughness/Vitality. I dont get two shotted, and I do pretty good against alot of different builds. I can also stand my ground against multiple opponents when using my abilities properly. The OP cannot truly expect to survive high dps in his choice of armor, in the style of play he obviously wants to play. Even with my armor, its avoidance, reflect, healing, ect that comes with being a Guard that keeps me alive. To call for nerfs because you want to stand still and not use heals, or abilities, or use them sparingly, well thats not a classes fault.

My second 80 is a THF. He was lvled second, and hes fun to play. He requires ALOT of awareness as anything can kill me, even a stiff wind. But he is not weak at all. He must shape the fight to his strengths, and if he doesn’t he dies. Thats it at face value. He does not have the ability to stand toe to toe with most classes and must use high hits and stealth to survive.

Thats the way this game is to be played. One class has strengths in one style of fighting and another class needs to fight another way. Armor, HP, and ability are all factors in how you will do, and who will come out victorious. If you cannot defeat certain classes, or builds, look at what your weaknesses are that their taking advantage of. Rock paper scissors will always be more interesting combat than everyone fights everyone on common ground.