Guild Wars 2

I’ve said it once, and I’ll continue to say it:

Bad players get Good players Nerfed in MMORPGs

I figure once they nerf out class into the ground, I’ll be onto another game hopefully. Least I enjoyed the long awaited GW2 (and massively delayed) to come to this

Hey, there’s always mesmer and war.

Rukia.4802:

Hey, there’s always mesmer and war.

Mesmer will probably get attention once thief is nerfed into the ground, but warriors are nerf proof so have at it

Good players play good regardless of the circumstance. Sounds like you’re not that OP.

Seems that thiefs are a bit bugged, similar to mesmers etc. So I think that those people who “whine” about OP should w8 till things get fixed. Yes, I hate thiefs on my alt engineer but on mesmer (which some people think is op) I can kill them and sometimes they kill me. But what I’ve find out is that most people play glass cannons or high dps builds and they wonder, why thief – class which is supposed to kill low defense characters fast is killing theirs low defense characters fast.

For those who cry about OP, try different approach or go in team – and no, I don’t play thief and don’t intend to.

P.S. I think you are right, people who can’t play well enough, don’t train enough etc. cry its too hard so they need to nerf everything so they are happy. And as we know from other MMOs, there is always OP class, if you have to win for the most time and otherwise you cry like a baby, pick the OP class and be quiet, we (good players I hopefuly am or will be) kill you anyway.

Crawford.4135:

I’ve said it once, and I’ll continue to say it:

Bad players get Good players Nerfed in MMORPGs

I figure once they nerf out class into the ground, I’ll be onto another game hopefully. Least I enjoyed the long awaited GW2 (and massively delayed) to come to this

Bad players only stay bad, good players started bad and only got better.

A good player will never be nerfed, they’ll take on every challenge thrown at them.

Mandra Madador.1709:

Crawford.4135:

I’ve said it once, and I’ll continue to say it:

Bad players get Good players Nerfed in MMORPGs

I figure once they nerf out class into the ground, I’ll be onto another game hopefully. Least I enjoyed the long awaited GW2 (and massively delayed) to come to this

Bad players only stay bad, good players started bad and only got better.

A good player will never be nerfed, they’ll take on every challenge thrown at them.

The best baseball player in the world will still strike out if you give him a limp feather instead of a bat.

bwillb.2165:

Mandra Madador.1709:

Crawford.4135:

I’ve said it once, and I’ll continue to say it:

Bad players get Good players Nerfed in MMORPGs

I figure once they nerf out class into the ground, I’ll be onto another game hopefully. Least I enjoyed the long awaited GW2 (and massively delayed) to come to this

Bad players only stay bad, good players started bad and only got better.

A good player will never be nerfed, they’ll take on every challenge thrown at them.

The best baseball player in the world will still strike out if you give him a limp feather instead of a bat.

Ok, thats nice, but no one will hand a baseball player a limp feather.
No one has been handed something that drastic yet in this game. It still works and “good” players will still do good.

BUT!

To retort to your day dream metaphor, that best baseball player still wont complain with a limp feather.
He’ll probably find more feathers to make wings and fly in to the sun.

Mandra Madador.1709:

bwillb.2165:

Mandra Madador.1709:

Crawford.4135:

I’ve said it once, and I’ll continue to say it:

Bad players get Good players Nerfed in MMORPGs

I figure once they nerf out class into the ground, I’ll be onto another game hopefully. Least I enjoyed the long awaited GW2 (and massively delayed) to come to this

Bad players only stay bad, good players started bad and only got better.

A good player will never be nerfed, they’ll take on every challenge thrown at them.

The best baseball player in the world will still strike out if you give him a limp feather instead of a bat.

Ok, thats nice, but no one will hand a baseball player a limp feather.
No one has been handed something that drastic yet in this game. It still works and “good” players will still do good.

They haven’t yet, no. But if the bad players keep getting their way, that’s where it will end up.

Mandra Madador.1709:

bwillb.2165:

Mandra Madador.1709:

Crawford.4135:

I’ve said it once, and I’ll continue to say it:

Bad players get Good players Nerfed in MMORPGs

I figure once they nerf out class into the ground, I’ll be onto another game hopefully. Least I enjoyed the long awaited GW2 (and massively delayed) to come to this

Bad players only stay bad, good players started bad and only got better.

A good player will never be nerfed, they’ll take on every challenge thrown at them.

The best baseball player in the world will still strike out if you give him a limp feather instead of a bat.

Ok, thats nice, but no one will hand a baseball player a limp feather.
No one has been handed something that drastic yet in this game. It still works and “good” players will still do good.

BUT!

To retort to your day dream metaphor, that best baseball player still wont complain with a limp feather.
He’ll probably find more feathers to make wings and fly in to the sun.

So what you’re saying is… once thieves are nerfed into the ground we’re going to grow wings and fly into the sun?

Really I think once the render issue gets fixed a good amount of QQ will die down.

Really its my only issue….even though I do hate thief mobility lol

epicsmooth.7825:

Really I think once the render issue gets fixed a good amount of QQ will die down.

Really its my only issue….even though I do hate thief mobility lol

I think that once the render issue gets fixed thieves will be fairly balanced. The QQ, however, will continue until thieves cease to exist.

I’m confused, you’re saying you have to be ‘’good player’’ to beat an ‘’average player’’ as a BS Thief?

All they’re going to be nerfing is the ’’burst’’, and they said they’ll be compensating it with buffs in other areas.

My biggest concern is: by the time ANet inevitably higher some decent devs that fix how the attributes scale with the player, Backstab will have already have been nerfed.

That’s a classic, really. Bad players getting good players nerfed.

Things like backstab combos do not take a lot of skill. They’re crutches that make mediocre players believe they’re PVP gods.

It’s World of Roguecraft all over again.

If the Backstab will get direct dmg nerf (like pistol whip), ppl will suddenly complain about some other ability (Shadow shot for example or any other which will become more viable). That doesn´t solve anything imho. It will be just like with the PW, autoattack will be more damaging ability suddenly….

Rukia.4802:

Mandra Madador.1709:

bwillb.2165:

Mandra Madador.1709:

Crawford.4135:

I’ve said it once, and I’ll continue to say it:

Bad players get Good players Nerfed in MMORPGs

I figure once they nerf out class into the ground, I’ll be onto another game hopefully. Least I enjoyed the long awaited GW2 (and massively delayed) to come to this

Bad players only stay bad, good players started bad and only got better.

A good player will never be nerfed, they’ll take on every challenge thrown at them.

The best baseball player in the world will still strike out if you give him a limp feather instead of a bat.

Ok, thats nice, but no one will hand a baseball player a limp feather.
No one has been handed something that drastic yet in this game. It still works and “good” players will still do good.

BUT!

To retort to your day dream metaphor, that best baseball player still wont complain with a limp feather.
He’ll probably find more feathers to make wings and fly in to the sun.

So what you’re saying is… once thieves are nerfed into the ground we’re going to grow wings and fly into the sun?

No but a Thief will be able to perma tickle you from stealth and you’ll die from laughing. Their armour will also be changed to a jesters outfit

or a thief will continue to use the crappy bugs in game i.e. render bug to bring in 3 of his buddies 1 a war and kitten your face in under 3 sec and laugh, only to say i dunno what your talkin about. working as intended brah!

What is your definition of “bad”? Where is the threshold where once starts or stop to be “bad”?

In my opinion there is an issue with a fallacy that is often used to justify badly tuned classes in MMO games. The fact that something is “balanced” at the very cutting edge of player population does not make everything automatically fine. Supposedly if lets say Thiefs are balanced at the e-sport level of gameplay, it does not mean that what happens for 95% of players population is irrelevant. Pubstomping classes should not exist in any MMO which wants to aspire to be called balanced.

bwillb.2165:

Rukia.4802:

Hey, there’s always mesmer and war.

warriors are nerf proof so have at it

Quoted for truth, Warrior profession is the love child of ArenaNet.

TheZeus.8617:

or a thief will continue to use the crappy bugs in game i.e. render bug to bring in 3 of his buddies 1 a war and kitten your face in under 3 sec and laugh, only to say i dunno what your talkin about. working as intended brah!

That’s so stupid how can you say Thieves in general use a rendering bug while they simply just use their stealth ability for either offense or defense. Don’t put the blame on Thieves if you are too stupid to use the dodge roll button.

Scribbles.7493:

That’s a classic, really. Bad players getting good players nerfed.

Things like backstab combos do not take a lot of skill. They’re crutches that make mediocre players believe they’re PVP gods.

It’s World of Roguecraft all over again.

Backstab doesn’t take a ton of skill, no. More than most other publicly-known combos, but still, it’s not rocket science. It does take perfect conditions to get high burst, however, and a good player won’t let those perfect conditions happen against him. As I’ve said before, it’s a pubstomper build. In the bigger picture it’s not more powerful than everything else, but it is built in such a way that it is punishing to those with lesser skill while useless against those with more skill. That’s what much of the thief is about, really: punishing the enemy for making mistakes. It doesn’t really need a nerf at all. It does need a couple of bugs fixed, but beyond that just improving the viability of other builds would correct the population imbalance to the point where you don’t notice backstab any more than any other burst build.

Because broken or too powerful skills or skill combinations only gets fixed because some people complain about it on a forum, not because statistical data, PvP results and the feedback of high-level PvP players say so, sure…

DesertRose.2031:

Because broken or too powerful skills or skill combinations only gets fixed because some people complain about it on a forum, not because statistical data, PvP results and the feedback of high-level PvP players say so, sure…

Judging by the Pistol Whip nerf…

I don’t agree with the OP at all, any decent developer balances the game according to stats-usually at the professional level.

What I think the current issue boils down to is Anet is looking at overall stats.
While good in theory this approach doesn’t work because most players aren’t anywhere near good and therefore you can’t balance based on their imperfections.

Thieves skill cap is relatively high, we have to out play our opponents to get kills and not by any small margin. Because of the natural variance in a high skill cap profession vsing lower skill cap professions we end up with things that may seem overpowered at first glance because of the disparity between the skills of the players but when we look at the “professional” level of play everyone is bringing their “A game”, the skill cap has been reached for the current meta and proper balancing can happen from that angle.

So if BS thieves are owning all the pro tourneys then I agree, it evidently needs to be addressed. If thieves are dominating all the low rent tourneys then it’s simply a l2p issue.

BabelFish.7234:

I don’t agree with the OP at all, any decent developer balances the game according to stats-usually at the professional level.

What I think the current issue boils down to is Anet is looking at overall stats.
While good in theory this approach doesn’t work because most players aren’t anywhere near good and therefore you can’t balance based on their imperfections.

Thieves skill cap is relatively high, we have to out play our opponents to get kills and not by any small margin. Because of the natural variance in a high skill cap profession vsing lower skill cap professions we end up with things that may seem overpowered at first glance because of the disparity between the skills of the players but when we look at the “professional” level of play everyone is bringing their “A game”, the skill cap has been reached for the current meta and proper balancing can happen from that angle.

So if BS thieves are owning all the pro tourneys then I agree, it evidently needs to be addressed. If thieves are dominating all the low rent tourneys then it’s simply a l2p issue.

Yeah, that about covers it. How many mug/backstab burst builds do you see in high end paid tourneys? And for that matter, how many pistol whip thieves did you see in high end paid tourneys?

bwillb.2165:

Yeah, that about covers it. How many mug/backstab burst builds do you see in high end paid tourneys? And for that matter, how many pistol whip thieves did you see in high end paid tourneys?

Always disliked how a game as a whole gets balanced around a minority….but anyways.

Really I think they should just separate sPvP and WvW balancing.

Really I think the issue is still the rendering more then anything else….at least for me

epicsmooth.7825:

bwillb.2165:

Yeah, that about covers it. How many mug/backstab burst builds do you see in high end paid tourneys? And for that matter, how many pistol whip thieves did you see in high end paid tourneys?

Always disliked how a game as a whole gets balanced around a minority….but anyways.

Really I think they should just separate sPvP and WvW balancing.

Really I think the issue is still the rendering more then anything else….at least for me

Balancing around a minority at the top is far better than balancing around low skill level. You balance around the high end, and you know that it’s not a L2P issue, as the people having problems with backstab are most definitely experiencing. If something is strong at low skill levels and balanced at high skill levels, you know without a doubt that you can overcome the obstacle by getting better at the game. If you balance around low skill level and that makes it less effective at high end where it was already balanced, then you’re nerfing players who took the time to learn how to play in favor of players who can’t be arsed with bettering themselves, as this thread’s title points out.

bwillb.2165:

Balancing around a minority at the top is far better than balancing around low skill level. You balance around the high end, and you know that it’s not a L2P issue, as the people having problems with backstab are most definitely experiencing. If something is strong at low skill levels and balanced at high skill levels, you know without a doubt that you can overcome the obstacle by getting better at the game. If you balance around low skill level and that makes it less effective at high end where it was already balanced, then you’re nerfing players who took the time to learn how to play in favor of players who can’t be arsed with bettering themselves, as this thread’s title points out.

See the problem from a business point of view is that you piss off many low skill/casual/mid-level/etc players with that, which can cause them to leave and make people avoid it…..that and WvW and sPvP are so different.

still fixing the rendering bug and separating WvW from PvE/sPvP for changes would do fine.

epicsmooth.7825:

bwillb.2165:

Balancing around a minority at the top is far better than balancing around low skill level. You balance around the high end, and you know that it’s not a L2P issue, as the people having problems with backstab are most definitely experiencing. If something is strong at low skill levels and balanced at high skill levels, you know without a doubt that you can overcome the obstacle by getting better at the game. If you balance around low skill level and that makes it less effective at high end where it was already balanced, then you’re nerfing players who took the time to learn how to play in favor of players who can’t be arsed with bettering themselves, as this thread’s title points out.

See the problem from a business point of view is that you piss off many low skill/casual/mid-level/etc players with that, which can cause them to leave and make people avoid it…..that and WvW and sPvP are so different.

still fixing the rendering bug and separating WvW from PvE/sPvP for changes would do fine.

the possibility of losing bad players isn’t a good reason to do something stupid. The players who aren’t interested in getting better and would rather whine about anything that kills them are likely just going to move on to the next new MMO that comes out anyway, as they are a very transitional demographic. No MMO will ever cater to them enough for them to be able to do good without putting in effort, so they’ll just keep going on to the next one. Bad MMOs try to cater to and compromise with them in the time that they are there. Good MMOs ignore them.

I don’t think they’ll put much effort into class balance in WvW. That is an area where any problem can be solved by throwing more people at it or building siege, making class balance largely irrelevant.

I completely agree that they should fix the rendering issues ASAP though. Supposedly the next patch will do so. We’ll see.

I don’t think you could ever balance WvW, too many factors. PvE/WvW should be grouped together as they’re closely intertwined. PvP should definitely have its own balancing though.

bwillb.2165:

I completely agree that they should fix the rendering issues ASAP though. Supposedly the next patch will do so. We’ll see.

God I hope so, really I’m fine with the burst just not seeing them most of the time just annoys me to no end.

BabelFish.7234:

I don’t think you could ever balance WvW, too many factors. PvE/WvW should be grouped together as they’re closely intertwined. PvP should definitely have its own balancing though.

Agreed, I never understood back when I played WoW, why they never did it.

Class changes made for PvP ended up hurting the class PvE so many times year after year.

Crawford.4135:

I’ve said it once, and I’ll continue to say it:

Bad players get Good players Nerfed in MMORPGs

I figure once they nerf out class into the ground, I’ll be onto another game hopefully. Least I enjoyed the long awaited GW2 (and massively delayed) to come to this

Then I would not worry at all if I were you, since a good player would just adapt instead of posting this crap on the forums.

Kaleygh.1524:

Crawford.4135:

I’ve said it once, and I’ll continue to say it:

Bad players get Good players Nerfed in MMORPGs

I figure once they nerf out class into the ground, I’ll be onto another game hopefully. Least I enjoyed the long awaited GW2 (and massively delayed) to come to this

Then I would not worry at all if I were you, since a good player would just adapt instead of posting this crap on the forums.

Good players will adapt. This is true. However, they should be expanding options that are available at the mid-high range, not narrowing them. Thieves already have so few.

bwillb.2165:

Kaleygh.1524:

Crawford.4135:

I’ve said it once, and I’ll continue to say it:

Bad players get Good players Nerfed in MMORPGs

I figure once they nerf out class into the ground, I’ll be onto another game hopefully. Least I enjoyed the long awaited GW2 (and massively delayed) to come to this

Then I would not worry at all if I were you, since a good player would just adapt instead of posting this crap on the forums.

Good players will adapt. This is true. However, they should be expanding options that are available at the mid-high range, not narrowing them. Thieves already have so few.

I totally agree with you man, but lets not forget that thieves are not the only class with problems that need to be fixed. I realize it takes a while to balance stuff in a MMO like GW2 and I think that ANET should not listen to either camp (the “thieves are OP” camp and some of the people playing thief that are scared of a nerf) but find more of a middle ground. Adding a slight cooldown to some abilities or something that would prevent the spamming of the same skill over and over could work. Maybe i`m wrong, I am not a game developer, but I hope ANET has the people with the necessary experience to fix this.
I do not agree with some of the the posts that just state “L2dodge”, “Use a stun breaker” or my fav. “Dont spec glass cannon”. I`m not running a glass cannon but I also do not find it normal that i have to run a certain spec all the time when i pvp just to be prepared to face a thief. The amount of effort it takes to counter a thief is disproportionate to the amount of work he/she has to do in order to down someone.
People arguing that the thief is a “dps/assassin/whatever class” tend to forget that ANET is not sticking by the “holy trinity” that we find in other games.

Kaleygh.1524:

People arguing that the thief is a “dps/assassin/whatever class” tend to forget that ANET is not sticking by the “holy trinity” that we find in other games.

Tell this to the Elementalists, which have one viable sPvP/tPvP build, and that´s probably the most weird one for a caster class (Bunker Elementalist).

Scribbles.7493:

That’s a classic, really. Bad players getting good players nerfed.

Things like backstab combos do not take a lot of skill. They’re crutches that make mediocre players believe they’re PVP gods.

It’s World of Roguecraft all over again.

Couldn’t have said it better myself.

Actually a lot of thiefs are taking advantage of the rendering bug atm. I mean it’s not there fault but it will be fixed soon. Then they cant insta gib you anymore after being hidden for forever and a day.

^ Unless they nerf all the good builds and you remain playing the only viable one to compete aka frost mage from another game out there just one example. I still hope anet is smarter then to listen to the massive qq they know they’re game afterall and will compensate the class in some way its sad though. OP is dead right.

bwillb.2165:

Mandra Madador.1709:

Crawford.4135:

I’ve said it once, and I’ll continue to say it:

Bad players get Good players Nerfed in MMORPGs

I figure once they nerf out class into the ground, I’ll be onto another game hopefully. Least I enjoyed the long awaited GW2 (and massively delayed) to come to this

Bad players only stay bad, good players started bad and only got better.

A good player will never be nerfed, they’ll take on every challenge thrown at them.

The best baseball player in the world will still strike out if you give him a limp feather instead of a bat.

Exactly.

Also I like playing thief. It fits my playstyle. I shouldn’t have to “adapt” by totally giving up on it just because casuals refuse to learn to roll.

Kaleygh.1524:

The amount of effort it takes to counter a thief is disproportionate to the amount of work he/she has to do in order to down someone.

It’s really not. The amount of effort you’re willing to put into learning how to counter it has a direct effect on the amount of work required for the thief to be able to pull it off on you. If you’re not willing to put any work in, the thief won’t need to put much work in. If you’re willing to go the extra mile with research of game mechanics, it can become nearly impossible for the thief to land the combo on you. It takes very little effort to counter the build, once you learn how. You can do it with one, maybe two buttons. The thief requires perfect timing if he wants to be as uncounterable as possible, and even then it’s pretty easy to counter. So in the low-skill matchings, the thief may have a slight advantage, but in the medium-high-skill matchings it is perfectly balanced and in the highest tier it’s all but eliminated as countering it becomes easier than pulling it off. And these are assuming an even skill matching, mind you. If the thief is significantly more skilled than his target he will be more successful, and if he is significantly less skilled than his target he will be less successful.

Gw is a pvp game.

PvP balance should be the number 1 priority.

PvE has never been hurt by PvP balance, just the kittens of the qq’ers qq’ing.

If youre here for PvE youre playing the wrong game!!

If its online its PvP, nuff said.

1) Game developers use their own judgement. If everyone is complaining, it will cause them to look into a mechanic but they still do the re-design decision themselves.

2) Bad players play FotM classes. People who see a class is doing well in PvP and jump to that class to get an edge are disguising the fact that they would be performing worse without that edge.

So maybe the OP is right – bad players DO get classes nerfed. Not by complaining, but by jumping on the FotM band wagon and magnifying the game impact of every little imbalance. We could live with BS being OP if it was only used by a proportionate number of players, perhaps. But when a quarter of the player base roll thieves just to spam BS chains for easy kills, it is bound to cause complaints.

I have noticed a lot of good necromancer players all of a sudden — they’re learning how to counter thieves and are very successful at it with this particular class. Every class can do well against thieves besides probably the ranger, but I have seen a few that knew what they were doing and it’s nice to see them sticking with their class and not hopping onto the next bandwagon.

I wish the rendering issues were addressed ASAP.

pyrotikk.4620:

Gw is a pvp game.

No, it isn’t. They’ve put too much work in the PvE side too make it a PvP game. Lot’s of art-work, new quest systems with the Hearts and Dynamic Events show they’ve definitely tried to make it a PvE game. PvP doesn’t need much art-work, PvP doesn’t sell. On top of that, the variety in PvP formats is lacking somewhat.

PvP balance should be the number 1 priority.

Wrong again.
PvE balance determines how playable a class is in groups, too weak and the class becomes unplayable.
PvP characters can be created casually, in a couple of minutes, and are easily abandoned.
PvE / RP characters generally have a lot more time invested and are a much greater loss if they ’don’t work out’.

1+1+1 = PvE balance should be top-priority.

PvE has never been hurt by PvP balance, just the kittens of the qq’ers qq’ing.

Couldn’t be further from the truth, Paragon and Ranger were weak in grouped PvE content, just as Elementalists (their buf was a bit late…).

If youre here for PvE youre playing the wrong game!!

Wrong again, see above.

If its online its PvP, nuff said.

Wrong, see above. plus playing in groups is important to many people. Being part of a group is the motion that drives F2P cash-shop sales. PvP doesn’t sell.

Bad players nerf themselves. Good players simply persist and adapt. I haven’t seen anything done to thieves that would make good ones drop the class. If you are still getting killed by them in PVP, that’s proof enough to show good players make it work.

It’s those keyboard turners. I keep killing them and they demand nerf.

It doesn’t take much skill to back stab some people when they just stand there. And my build doesn’t even use shadow refuge or blinding powder. That’s right – no stealth.

So much QQ on thief forum. Soooo much. Its really amazing. The truth is, good players don’t QQ on forums. Bad ones do.

Multiple devs have already stated they’re not making balance changes based on forum crying and knee-jerk reactions. They have data and meaningful discussions around all the changes being made.

Observing this sub-forum has brought me to realize that there are lots of bads here and lots of thief-only players too. Hmm…. 1+1=2?

Good players with thieves are still owning it up in PvP. Adapt to a balanced game, like the good players do. Those “Learn 2 Play” posts are coming back to haunt some of you.

I find it funny that in a thread titled ‘Bad players get Good players Nerfed’ the first post mentions Mesmers.

Remember backstabbing and abusing render problems for perma stealth makes a good player. Killing phantasms is too hard though, even if PvE mobs can do it, lets just keep crying till phantasms get nerfed so hard that Mesmers lose all their support and control specs and can only go minion bombing. Oh its already happened.