Guild Wars 2

Ridiculous. I’ve been playing this game since early release, I’ve made over 20 Lv80s, I played enough to make 7 legendaries on my account alone, and I’ve logged thousands of games on PvP. I love playing GW2 and I still try to enjoy it when running new content with my guild but I’m just constantly bummed out by the new changes slamming my favorite class in the game on every balance patch.

What the hell? We’re not sunk low enough yet? I was already forced to give up my favorite PvP build which was S/D thief because of several direct and indirect nerfs and now I can barely do anything on my D/P thief without meeting some cheese DH or rev in the game who dishes more DPS despite having easy access to better defense mechanics. They took away every edge we had against some classes/builds to the point where even Metabattle says “AVOID 1v1” which translates to “every metabuild will most likely kill you”.

Although thief (at least bounding D/P daredevil) is still considered meta, that mostly applies only to well-organized groups or ESL teams. and only because thief is required for capping/decapping nodes. As if the role of the thief wasn’t limited enough, we’ve gone from “avoid these classes in 1v1” to “avoid almost every class in 1v1” to “avoid all 1v1”. As for the “+1” role, let’s face it, having a meta Rev or a DH meditrapper would probably yield better results than having a thief as your wingman.

Refer to my latest post. The key to your problems is in d/d condi evade spam.

reinforever.8902:

Refer to my latest post. The key to your problems is in d/d condi evade spam.

That works against noobs.

Jana.6831:

reinforever.8902:

Refer to my latest post. The key to your problems is in d/d condi evade spam.

That works against noobs.

Actually no, I’ve had luck with it against skilled players in wvw and pvp alike. Usually takes at least 2 people to kill me with some exceptions. The sustained dmg from death blossom and the condi dodge from DD make it have impressive dps potential. That mixed with evades + more defensive stats (condi dmg only needs one stat unlike power prec ferocity) make it extremely hard to kill.

reinforever.8902:

Actually no, I’ve had luck with it against skilled players in wvw and pvp alike. Usually takes at least 2 people to kill me with some exceptions. The sustained dmg from death blossom and the condi dodge from DD make it have impressive dps potential. That mixed with evades + more defensive stats (condi dmg only needs one stat unlike power prec ferocity) make it extremely hard to kill.

Most of the time you had an ally (distraction works wonders for a thief) and the rest of the video didn’t really look like skilled players.
If your idea of “skillfull play” is to smash one button, then the new meta is for you, yes.
I don’t want this though – I want to think.

Exactly this, never understood the “skillful” play behind deathblossom spam, I watched bit of the video and most of the time you was either spalding #3 or the Condi dodge trait. Not to mention dire gear.

Also didn’t you play d/p trapper power thief too?

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Exactly this, never understood the “skillful” play behind deathblossom spam, I watched bit of the video and most of the time you was either spalding #3 or the Condi dodge trait. Not to mention dire gear.

Also didn’t you play d/p trapper power thief too?

Jana.6831:

Most of the time you had an ally (distraction works wonders for a thief) and the rest of the video didn’t really look like skilled players.
If your idea of “skillfull play” is to smash one button, then the new meta is for you, yes.
I don’t want this though – I want to think.

Half the vid is an outnumbered fight with a friend and I, but the other half is a bunch of duels and me ganking. But outside of the video I’ve been going up against pretty highly skilled players and winning/losing some. I’m on NA but I’m down to duel anytime. You guys act like most other thief builds aren’t just one button spam for most of the fights. Knowing to use autos and dagger 4 is also really important for this build as well as 2 for kiting enemies. I get it though, it’s something different than you’re used to so you don’t like it. But like I said the meta is changing so we have to adapt or die. Also yes, I made the d/p power trapper build.

Yes, most other thief builds when played good aren’t just one button spam – I thought you were a thief yourself?

No, we/I want build diversity and personally I don’t like condis, it’s not my style – it’s fine if others use it (to an extend as anet should look into condi/power balance for wvw) but I don’t want to be told “Yo scrub, get this condi build and smash #3 – stop complaining”
I loved this game for 2 things; wvw and thief – both is dying and I will fight until I have no hope anymore. I won’t make a goodbye thread though

Edit: I never heard of the D/P power trap build- but good for you =)

Jana.6831:

Yes, most other thief builds when played good aren’t just one button spam – I thought you were a thief yourself?

No, we/I want build diversity and personally I don’t like condis, it’s not my style – it’s fine if others use it (to an extend as anet should look into condi/power balance for wvw) but I don’t want to be told “Yo scrub, get this condi build and smash #3 – stop complaining”
I loved this game for 2 things; wvw and thief – both is dying and I will fight until I have no hope anymore. I won’t make a goodbye thread though

Edit: I never heard of the D/P power trap build- but good for you =)

I believe in build diversity too. All I was saying above was that if you feel like you’re struggling with fighting other current meta builds, that my build is a good solution as it works well. Not saying it’s the end all be all. Most that know me know that I like to make weird builds that aren’t quite meta and share them with others. I was also replying to fat disgrace bout the d/p trapper question, not trying to sound kitteny to you. You should make a goodbye thread tho, it ended up renewing my love for the game.

reinforever.8902:

I believe in build diversity too. All I was saying above was that if you feel like you’re struggling with fighting other current meta builds, that my build is a good solution as it works well. Not saying it’s the end all be all.

reinforever.8902:

I get it though, it’s something different than you’re used to so you don’t like it. But like I said the meta is changing so we have to adapt or die.

I don’t need to comment on that, do I?

reinforever.8902:

I was also replying to fat disgrace bout the d/p trapper question, not trying to sound kitteny to you. You should make a goodbye thread tho, it ended up renewing my love for the game.

Yes, I realized that after my edit.
I won’t make a goodbye thread which will get closed anyway as there’s no use to it – and I’m pretty much a “that’s it” person, I rarely have second thoughts. It takes a while for me to say “this is the end” though – Not happy about that fact.

Jana.6831:

reinforever.8902:

I believe in build diversity too. All I was saying above was that if you feel like you’re struggling with fighting other current meta builds, that my build is a good solution as it works well. Not saying it’s the end all be all.

reinforever.8902:

I get it though, it’s something different than you’re used to so you don’t like it. But like I said the meta is changing so we have to adapt or die.

I don’t need to comment on that, do I?

reinforever.8902:

I was also replying to fat disgrace bout the d/p trapper question, not trying to sound kitteny to you. You should make a goodbye thread tho, it ended up renewing my love for the game.

Yes, I realized that after my edit.
I won’t make a goodbye thread which will get closed anyway as there’s no use to it – and I’m pretty much a “that’s it” person, I rarely have second thoughts. It takes a while for me to say “this is the end” though – Not happy about that fact.

It’s a commonly well known fact that most of the old meta builds don’t work against new meta builds. However there are newer power builds that seem to fit in better. This is healthy for build diversity in thief. Adapt or die still applies, but I’m not saying use my build or give up. You just misunderstood me.

It’s nothing personal dude, in defence I have never given a condi build a proper chance, I bought a dire set and play a few weeks of p/d condi which was om for trolling but I never enjoyed it as a “serious” build.

I am a power thief only and regularly change from d/d (not as much now as my ele has the 2nd dagger) d/p, s/d and staff.

Personal preference does not equate to more skill nor does it mean builds one does not prefer to play are not viable.

I have a personal preference in playing the thief over all other professions and this does not equate to other professions not being viable or as being for “noobs”. Now I also find power builds more interesting then condition builds but the fact remains condition builds more survivable. They HAVE to be that by design simply to allow the time for those conditions to work. This has nothing to do with “not thinking” as is being implied, it has to do with how a given build works.

Condition builds will be more forgiving and in particular for those using dire. Power builds will kill faster but allow for fewer mistakes. All the self claimed “skill and thinking” in the world will not allow a person with 2k in armor and 15k in health to survive 13 some odd AOE attacks stacked atop you.

In WvW I have found that those power builds are far less able to survive all that AOE and especially at choke points. The Condition build I use can. It that simple. Power creep coupled with much less in the way means by which a power based thief can deal with the same makes things yet harder for many thief builds.

(one thing I do find interesting was that in the early feedback on the DH karl getting slammed because they were going to be UP and not worth playing when compared to Reaper/Chrono etc. My own DH just massacres people and they all over the place now)

babazhook.6805:

Personal preference does not equate to more skill nor does it mean builds one does not prefer to play are not viable.

I have a personal preference in playing the thief over all other professions and this does not equate to other professions not being viable or as being for “noobs”. Now I also find power builds more interesting then condition builds but the fact remains condition builds more survivable. They HAVE to be that by design simply to allow the time for those conditions to work. This has nothing to do with “not thinking” as is being implied, it has to do with how a given build works.

Condition builds will be more forgiving and in particular for those using dire. Power builds will kill faster but allow for fewer mistakes. All the self claimed “skill and thinking” in the world will not allow a person with 2k in armor and 15k in health to survive 13 some odd AOE attacks stacked atop you.

In WvW I have found that those power builds are far less able to survive all that AOE and especially at choke points. The Condition build I use can. It that simple. Power creep coupled with much less in the way means by which a power based thief can deal with the same makes things yet harder for many thief builds.

(one thing I do find interesting was that in the early feedback on the DH karl getting slammed because they were going to be UP and not worth playing when compared to Reaper/Chrono etc. My own DH just massacres people and they all over the place now)

Since this was directed at me without calling me out:
what’s your point?

To be fair, D/d condi is VERY easy to outplay. A short dash out and you waste more init/evade/util/cooldowns than I. Advantage wins duels, and all of D/d condi advantage is frontloaded. If I just evade you a bit then you are far weaker than me, and I can murder you with serious impunity. It’s strong against melee and unobservant players, but a smart or ranged player will make you burn your advantages earlier.

Edit before I forget: I play pistols, I love them, they are my choice even when they dropped outta meta I had an alt holding my pistols. That way you get why I have no trouble.

Serious Thought.5394:

To be fair, D/d condi is VERY easy to outplay. A short dash out and you waste more init/evade/util/cooldowns than I. Advantage wins duels, and all of D/d condi advantage is frontloaded. If I just evade you a bit then you are far weaker than me, and I can murder you with serious impunity. It’s strong against melee and unobservant players, but a smart or ranged player will make you burn your advantages earlier.

Yeah… But you’re basing all of this on the assumption you’re better/the enemy who’s playing D/D sucks.

What happens when he’s an above average player or better than you? This build has so much potential to carry the user, as well.

Almost “infinite” dodge rolls, consistent condition application – It’s not really front loaded. The only thing which is, is Bewildering Ambushes Confusion, which isn’t a win-condition.

Properly timed Death blossom’s/dodge rolls and there’s nothing you can do – it’s all evaded whilst you receive a boatload of conditions.

“Well I’ll time my attacks to when your dodge roll ends”, yeah okay… But now you’re focusing on the offensive and not focusing on clearing conditions. You best make your attack count. I’m running R4I and Shadow Step so I have stun breaks and those condi’s are ticking.

Either way it’s all on paper and the real thing is much different. From my experiences playing D/D Condi was a complete jokey stomp.

Ok. So lets say you played D/D condi into my P/P control. You receive benefit and see me before I see you, your play good sir? (again its all theoretical, but I haven’t lost to a D/D condi thus far…I made one as a mini asura though XD I like free tears of those who can’t be bothered to cleanse)

And this is why we never get anywhere. You’re all too busy attacking each other instead of attacking the problem. It’s always “they were bad” or “if they were competent…”. If you guys used the same tenacity you possessed to belittle each other’s builds and play styles and directed it at a common goal then we’d probably be at least half a percent closer to getting what this class needs.

This class needs an update and a interaction as good as Revenant. We won’t get either, so I’m skeptical. Sorry. Oh and its totally fair I can’t one shot the same mesmer who just drops mirror blade, mirror image, and shatter on me from stealth to one shot me. Seems legit, right? Dodge time? 0.

It’s sad but Thief really isn’t much fun in PvP anymore (and I don’t like being forced to play condi/evade builds, that’s just now “my” kind of thief-playstyle). It is however PVP as such that has severe issues not just the thief class alone.

Most classes have too many passive evades/blocks/passive condi dealing, etc.. and damage numbers got ridiculously high since the last two patches – especially with the new elite specs.

Thieves particluarly rely on either controlled use of stealth or active dodges, both of which need proper timing. With the crazy amounts of AE, passive trap CC and Condis around even all the dodges Daredevil has are useless. It just takes a little longer until you get killed. So yes: stay out of 1vs1 if you’re a thief… and stay out of AE too… and reroll either DH or Revenant.

Sword-Revenants what are they supposed to be anyway – aeehm… thiefs in heavy armor? They kill you while being an unattackable mistform plus they wear heavy armor? really? is that supposed to be fun?

And DH traps!? Seriously?

I like my thief and yes I’m not a great player, so l2p is always an issue here, yes, I am still trying to find that valid staff PvP-build (even though I know it doesn’t exist), but even when taking all of that aside: the amount of frustation in PVP as a (mediocre) thief player has never been that high before. :-(

Jana.6831:

reinforever.8902:

Actually no, I’ve had luck with it against skilled players in wvw and pvp alike. Usually takes at least 2 people to kill me with some exceptions. The sustained dmg from death blossom and the condi dodge from DD make it have impressive dps potential. That mixed with evades + more defensive stats (condi dmg only needs one stat unlike power prec ferocity) make it extremely hard to kill.

If your idea of “skillfull play” is to smash one button, then the new meta is for you, yes.
I don’t want this though – I want to think.

While I mostly disagree with your stance on stealth and SA involving thinking, I couldn’t agree more with this statement.

I have repeatedly asked for Death Blossom to be made into a completely different skill, because just upping damage or evade frame duration I knew would have left us in this position: spam a skill and win the fight.

My same thoughts regarding Shadow Shot; I’ve lost quite a few matches against other thieves while playing D/D. I equip and offhand pistol in a rematch, press 3 a few times, and usually win without taking hits. The coefficient is so high, the initiative cost so low, and with built-in mitigation, there’s no real reason to do anything else.

DB works on skilled players, though. In fights I lost playing backstab with in some friendly 1v1’s with what I’d call very skilled guildmembers, I was fairly successful in rematching them using DB. On a power/crit build. The evasion is enormous and is exactly what I feared would become of DB given increased evade frames: an easy-to-win-with condi spam build.

DeceiverX.8361:

While I mostly disagree with your stance on stealth and SA involving thinking, I couldn’t agree more with this statement.

I have repeatedly asked for Death Blossom to be made into a completely different skill, because just upping damage or evade frame duration I knew would have left us in this position: spam a skill and win the fight.

My same thoughts regarding Shadow Shot; I’ve lost quite a few matches against other thieves while playing D/D. I equip and offhand pistol in a rematch, press 3 a few times, and usually win without taking hits. The coefficient is so high, the initiative cost so low, and with built-in mitigation, there’s no real reason to do anything else.

DB works on skilled players, though. In fights I lost playing backstab with in some friendly 1v1’s with what I’d call very skilled guildmembers, I was fairly successful in rematching them using DB. On a power/crit build. The evasion is enormous and is exactly what I feared would become of DB given increased evade frames: an easy-to-win-with condi spam build.

Yay Deceiver agreed with me for once.
Even with SA one still needed to think as D/D still has got no utility.
This thread derailed with the first answer and by watching that video: It was always just Death Blossom, no matter the situation, no matter the opponent.
I like Death Blossom as it is, I just don’t see how spamming one skill against people who yet have to figure out their new classes should be an argument against someone asking for other thief sets to be viable again – and that’s why I argued.

ETA: DB as it is is fine – Daredevil is much worse when it comes to evades – maybe you should do a review on that?

Jana.6831:

DeceiverX.8361:

While I mostly disagree with your stance on stealth and SA involving thinking, I couldn’t agree more with this statement.

I have repeatedly asked for Death Blossom to be made into a completely different skill, because just upping damage or evade frame duration I knew would have left us in this position: spam a skill and win the fight.

My same thoughts regarding Shadow Shot; I’ve lost quite a few matches against other thieves while playing D/D. I equip and offhand pistol in a rematch, press 3 a few times, and usually win without taking hits. The coefficient is so high, the initiative cost so low, and with built-in mitigation, there’s no real reason to do anything else.

DB works on skilled players, though. In fights I lost playing backstab with in some friendly 1v1’s with what I’d call very skilled guildmembers, I was fairly successful in rematching them using DB. On a power/crit build. The evasion is enormous and is exactly what I feared would become of DB given increased evade frames: an easy-to-win-with condi spam build.

Yay Deceiver agreed with me for once.
Even with SA one still needed to think as D/D still has got no utility.
This thread derailed with the first answer and by watching that video: It was always just Death Blossom, no matter the situation, no matter the opponent.
I like Death Blossom as it is, I just don’t see how spamming one skill against people who yet have to figure out their new classes should be an argument against someone asking for other thief sets to be viable again – and that’s why I argued.

ETA: DB as it is is fine – Daredevil is much worse when it comes to evades – maybe you should do a review on that?

In my case, it wasn’t inexperienced/clueless players, though. I was using D/D baseline thief and for the most part, it was against a myriad of more classic builds.

Granted, I still didn’t beat “meta” builds in sPvP regularly enough to claim it as an instant-win, but it was easy enough with such substantial rewards that I saw pretty substantial improvements pretty much pressing the button whenever I wanted to, and was not using the benefits of the DD line at the time. Overall I fared better than what was normal for me playing the backstab build I normally do, and playing D/P didn’t change very much in regards to “on point” combat.

DrD is weird. It’s fair and isn’t. The coefficients on Vault and BD are too high (especially in WvW after testing, dealing 7k+ damage per dodge is a bit of an issue), however the gains from the rest of the specialization line are extremely underwhelming, and the staff itself seems almost useless outside of vault-spamming.
Daredevil pretty much needs a conceptual redesign as it adds very little to the class in regards to a playstyle point of view and trivializes the thief as a whole while expounding upon the notion that the class suffers from core design philosophies and is only kept afloat by a few extremely powerful gimmicks that when countered render the underlying class schemes as unsuitable for a plethora of different situations done objectively better by other classes.

DeceiverX.8361:

In my case, it wasn’t inexperienced/clueless players, though. I was using D/D baseline thief and for the most part, it was against a myriad of more classic builds.

Granted, I still didn’t beat “meta” builds in sPvP regularly enough to claim it as an instant-win, but it was easy enough with such substantial rewards that I saw pretty substantial improvements pretty much pressing the button whenever I wanted to, and was not using the benefits of the DD line at the time. Overall I fared better than what was normal for me playing the backstab build I normally do, and playing D/P didn’t change very much in regards to “on point” combat.

DrD is weird. It’s fair and isn’t. The coefficients on Vault and BD are too high (especially in WvW after testing, dealing 7k+ damage per dodge is a bit of an issue), however the gains from the rest of the specialization line are extremely underwhelming, and the staff itself seems almost useless outside of vault-spamming.
Daredevil pretty much needs a conceptual redesign as it adds very little to the class in regards to a playstyle point of view and trivializes the thief as a whole while expounding upon the notion that the class suffers from core design philosophies and is only kept afloat by a few extremely powerful gimmicks that when countered render the underlying class schemes as unsuitable for a plethora of different situations done objectively better by other classes.

I doubt you were spamming DB on mesmer clones – please try to get my point.

I ran some tests with that D/D condi spam thing. It does only work against noobs, and it doesn’t fair well in anything with more than a 1v1. As soon as you land, which is pretty easy to see and time, you are vulnerable and cannot do anything.

The biggest issues with that and pretty much all thief kitten is thusly: Some things cannot be evaded, the most common being:

Barriers from guardians, which they have plenty of now.
Fear walls from Necromancers.
Tether pulls from guardians (again).

And when that happens, you better have a shadowstep your bar or gg. The other shadowsteps either don’t stun break and/or bring you closer to the enemy.

WEXXES.2378:

I ran some tests with that D/D condi spam thing. It does only work against noobs, and it doesn’t fair well in anything with more than a 1v1. As soon as you land, which is pretty easy to see and time, you are vulnerable and cannot do anything.

The biggest issues with that and pretty much all thief kitten is thusly: Some things cannot be evaded, the most common being:

Barriers from guardians, which they have plenty of now.
Fear walls from Necromancers.
Tether pulls from guardians (again).

And when that happens, you better have a shadowstep your bar or gg. The other shadowsteps either don’t stun break and/or bring you closer to the enemy.

First many of the weaknesses you detail of the DB build are true of many thief builds.

Secondly a DB build should not spam DB. There should never be a point where you land and do nothing. You have to mix it in with Impaling lotus and the AA attacks and Combo fields to maximize the effects. (Using sb for poison then doing DBS in the same works very well)

Third a DB build using SOM as a heal fares far better against multiple enemies than most builds as you generate more evades to kick in vigor/EA and Driven fortitude, you output more damage overall and you bring in more heals from the SOM. While one could counter that you are also taking more damage due to multiple enemies this not exactly true as it much harder for three to coordinate those attacks when you are vulnerable then it is for you to get off a DB or impaling that hits multiple enemies.

In game terms and speaking of WvW and PVE and the NPCs and critters (guards at camps or in towers or champions and minions in Pve) this generally means that with my power build I try and hive those away from the group and take down in detail. With DB I go right for the heart of the mass, the more the merrier.

Obviously fighting a player enemy is different but there very much the same thing going on. You can generate tremendous sustain while dishing out damage in a cluster of players. Indeed when health low I will move towards an enemy cluster to get off some DBS so as to generate health. This can work very well in constricted areas such as castle towers as you try to flip or defend the lords room.

Obviously you are not godlike and things like wells and AOE has to be watched for but you can in fact generate enough healing if an enemy stands in AOE to survive the same if you are careful. As example If you are standing in AC fire from defenders in a tower even as you battle those outside the same, you can generate enough heals that when coupled with the evades allow you to keep fighting in that fire against multiple enemies.

When focused by multiple players in a coordinated effort you will be in trouble but this true of any thief build that does not rely on stealth and stealth today is not what it once was.

It not the one build to rule them all but it does work. If I am expecting more in the way of 1v1 I would use withdraw as the heal.