Guild Wars 2

That time again.
The time to see anything you hold dear ripped apart.
Time to see your builds poof in thin air.
Time to shake your head at questionable decisions.

For April 30th is upon us.
Apparently large pve/pvp split incoming.
Mug supposedly is to be nerfed, and enhanced mobility is apparently coming our way.
Will we see the two above this patch? Maybe, maybe not, we might see reveal knocked up to 5s, you never know.

Whip out the wishlists.
inf strike +.25s on immobilize and flanking strike to remove a boon on 2nd hit and 2nd hit to come out 15% faster for me :o. Along with a 3 ini Dancing dagger and 5% vulnerability on Cloak and dagger.
Throw Combo critical chance to 10% and delete Ricochet and I’ll start feeling some fuzzies.
Hope for trap updates. Hope for Scorpion wire to Stop.Obstructing.On.Thin.Air.
Hope our weapon sets feel more solid on their own before traits and utils.
Inb4 jaw-dropping nerfs.

Wait what?

Any source to this or just speculation?

http://www.guildwars2hub.com/features/editorials/flame-and-frost-retribution-preview
^ Pve/pvp splits

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zCUvIrH2BlU
^ Mug nerf/ mobility enhancement/ condi changes.
Our hints at what is to come.

Though the sword stuff was my wishlist :P.

Hoping S/P’s pistol whip gets some love, I absolutely adore the control of the set and can’t seem to drop it despite it’s heavy disadvantages (see: PW doing less DPS than an autoattack chain).

Hopefully P/P gets some love too, and D/P could use a few nerfs. I’d also like to see the original revealed nerf go into place instead of the 4s change. I truly believe that will fix most QQ about Thieves and permastealthing.

But please God, don’t nerf Mug into the ground. I’m okay with a solid damage decrease, but removing the damage entirely might just be the last straw for Thieves.

Rahar.9872:

But please God, don’t nerf Mug into the ground. I’m okay with a solid damage decrease, but removing the damage entirely might just be the last straw for Thieves.

There’s a point where it will just stop being fun playing the pinata. Please Anet, make smart changes this time around and take back the evil you have done to us.

Jack of Tears.9458:

Rahar.9872:

But please God, don’t nerf Mug into the ground. I’m okay with a solid damage decrease, but removing the damage entirely might just be the last straw for Thieves.

There’s a point where it will just stop being fun playing the pinata. Please Anet, make smart changes this time around and take back the evil you have done to us.

Pretty sure the QQ’ers will QQ until we pop open and the candy falls out. That’s when I’ll roll a D/D ele and faceroll, just like everyone else seems to want to do.

Personally, if we get Mug nerfed for enhanced mobility, then I support this patch with every ounce of my un-soul.

Arganthium.5638:

Personally, if we get Mug nerfed for enhanced mobility, then I support this patch with every ounce of my un-soul.

Thieves can now move 50% faster! (33% speed cap.)

I’m willing to bet, half of the bugs addressed won’t even be fixed and we’ll get a nerf to a few skills/traits. If theres one thing I hope they change it’s the activation time on trick shot. It says 0.25 when it’s in fact 0.95..

With the incredibly slow approach the devs have with this sort of stuff, we will see some hardcore damage nerfs (since they want to reduce damage but enhance mobility and utility), and we’ll be in worse shape for at least a few months from then on. When the buffs arrive, they will most likely be mediocre and not solve the inherent problems they were put in to fix. Such is the life of the MMO rogue archetype.

Yay!

Auesis.7301:

With the incredibly slow approach the devs have with this sort of stuff, we will see some hardcore damage nerfs (since they want to reduce damage but enhance mobility and utility), and we’ll be in worse shape for at least a few months from then on. When the buffs arrive, they will most likely be mediocre and not solve the inherent problems they were put in to fix. Such is the life of the MMO rogue archetype.

Yay!

I’m going to support you on this. I’ll reply after April 30th and prove you’re right.

Arganthium.5638:

Personally, if we get Mug nerfed for enhanced mobility, then I support this patch with every ounce of my un-soul.

u reallize mug is 35% of burst builds. it will destroy EVERY burst build and also destroy steal. every steal skill other than whirl is pretty much crappy. eh yeah they are neat….sorta cool. hey its a thief he steals! cool! but guess what compare it to mesmers shatters skills and cloens f1 f2 f3 f4. eles spam skills for hours…….warriors go bonkers…..engineers gett better skills than their actually utilities in some cases. necros get a 2nd hp bar…..so nerf the dmg. go ahead……. then we really dont compare. oh we get no blocks no dmg reduction no invulnerabilty for a few secs. our evades are 1/4 second usually. and we can be hit while invised and aoe’d to death. thieves are not a viable class in WVW unless running venom share while spaming trick shot all day (yay:/) hope they dont nerf steal. i dont run a burst build but ill tell u what. its really hard to finish some characters and that 3-4k dmg really helps. especially with all the dmg reduction…heals…blocks that other classes have.

FOR EXAMPLE: lets say your old school or just not smart and like to run d/d burst thief in wvw . you CnD but he blocks with aegis or soemthing….then u dodge his attack then u try CnD again but he dodges bc its insanely slow and u can see it coming…..now u are fully outo f intiative lol! welll maybe 1-2 from regen. lets steal! IF it hits you get a few thousand damage! ok so in that scenario u only did like 3-5k dmg and guess what…ur out of intiative and about to die. on the other hand against a slow reacting player without any buffs or anti cc or anti stun or evades etc etc etc you could do 5k or slightly more then CnD for 6k then backstab for 7-8k. but guess what…IF that kills them…its ONE kill then ur done…DEAD if its a zerg v zerg fight. who cares if a thief can kill you 1 v 1. it means NOTHING. might hurt ur pride but guess what…YOU (as another class) can contribute 10x more in a guild/zerg fight which proves everythign in wvw. so a guardian is technically more powerful overall than a thief ….can survive longer and do 5x more dmg bc its alive doing dmg and not deadon the ground. if you look at it as dmg per time played. a thief really isnt int he top. they must take long breaks……die alot…. etc or just roam for small fights. i think alot of people are just untalented and really just dont keep things in perspective. try look at things from a different point of view or with different objectives reprioritized!@

oh and even if we get mobility. will it be worth it? i think if they trippled all the evade times that would be a start. 1/4 is the most common….rarely a .5 second evade. so death blossom…flanking strike….pistol whip all take long time to actually happen but only have a short evade. that actually leaves u vulnerable and open to a big attack or combo etc etc. hope they really thought about this b4 acting.

That’s nice, but there are a few flaws I’m noticing here. For one thing, if you rely on a single skill that is blockable, evadable, blind-able, etc. to do “35%” of your burst- and, oh, by the way, this skill has a 45-second cool down- then may the Flying Spaghetti Monster have mercy on those who dare use it as such.

Next, you seem to dismiss Steal as “useless” without Mug. That’s just not true. I use it very, very often for multiple reasons at once. For example, I will often Stealth→Steal as a gap closer, simply because steal is a very good one, and it doesn’t put Revealed on you. In the process of doing so, I pick up 3 initiative from Kleptomaniac. Then I can backstab or whatnot quickly and easily. The skills you get aren’t bad either, whether they be from warrior or from another profession. Either they give you decent control/debuff options (Necro, Guard, Ele), boons and/or conditions (Engi- HS or CB for Chaos Armor finisher, Mesmer, Ranger), direct damage (Warr), or the equivalent of a Blinding Powder (Thief). They’re all good, and I specifically steal from certain professions in order to achieve one of the skills. It’s a tactical boon.

You also compare Steal with other professions’ skills to point out its “worthlessness”. Realize that steal is just one of many unique things that our profession gets. We also get initiative, tons of stealth, dual skills, tons of teleports, and tons of mobility. As a whole, the thief profession is very well-off.

Thieves aren’t just viable in WvW, I think that a case can be made for them for being the best class for WvW. For one thing, we have all-around good healing that makes up for our lack of general toughness. We can escape easily. We can use the terrain to our advantage more than any other profession, because of our mobility and stealth. We can serve on the front lines, the midfield, or behind enemy ranks. We can scout, solo, join a small team, or zerg. We can pop in and out of different areas on a battlefield to help an ally finish off an enemy, then pop up in another area to finish off another enemy. We can get right in the heart of an enemy zerg and, if we know what we’re doing, become a real thorn in the side. Our flexibility is just… Endless.

I’m just going to say that most of your paragraph showed why burst builds are dumb and shouldn’t be used.

Mobility is great for control, damage, ally support, range, flexibility, survivability, and aggressive ability.

@ARGANTHIUM
Ok : A) if u DONT rely on mug as part of your BURST build than you are just doing it wrong. that is a fact. u cant burst without mug. or u can bug just wont down many if any. i didnt say it was useless. i said one skill was decent and thats whirl. since u think its amazing ill tell u why its not. mud skill sux….gets 1 hit max and no conditions usually. feathers….its ok …extra blind not much of a game changer might help u get away tho. consume plasma…heavenly but since its a 1.5 sec cast time or so… its not really good unless ur invis …..its best used for the fury and also not a game changer. bleed one is horrendous….1 minute? pfft thats like no dmg espeically isnce it will be removed in 6 seconds or less guaranteed. and so on and so forth. whirl is nice like i said but leaves you open for attack and requires your oppoenent to be dumb. (we are talking pvp here) all are usually very nicely in PVE dont get me wrong.

and yes burst builds ARE dumb….my point being. but i love mug as a finisher or a way to really get them under 50% so u can use some of the good dmg from a thief.

mesmer / ele / engi f1 f2 f3 f4 are GREAT even without specs. u could say that even 1 of them compares with f1 from a thief on a pretty much even plateau! dont split hairs with me bc thats pretty much true! if its not the others are stronger than the thieve’s f1. anyway let me compare WITH traiting bc without steal is still weaker: lets compare a guardian bc they have the weaker of most the f’s skills (in comparison to engi mesmer ele etc)

guardians f1+ f2+f3 :
Multiple huge ally heal(s)
Full self heal
Multiple ally Aegis.
Self self Aegis
Multiple ally protection(s)
Self Protection
Random Aegis
Random Burns
Multiple huge ally burns
Self huge burn
Remove 3 self conditions
Shorter Random Boons/burns
Self Stability
AOE burning
Stun break
Multiple self Rretaliation
Self might
Self regeneration
Multiple ally regeneration
Decreased Recharge of F’s
Conditional Recharge of F’s

Thief’s one and only f1:
1 sec stun to one enemy
fury swift might for allies nearby
get one random skill from one eneymy
steal 2 boons from one enemy
deal dmg to one enemy
invis for 2 secs
poison to one enemy

:P fail. F1 is nearly useless other than mug. nobody uses trickery these days …even on condition builds….the traitline sux. stun is no good in condi builds….nvm im getting side tracked here. point is in comparison to the less powerful of the several i mentioned…..thief does not even come close to stacking up. its undeniable. u might LIKE steal….i mean i do …its fun…nice gap closer and finishing dmg on a surprise. but as it it sux compared to other classes. i would in a sec trade it for the necros 2nd Hp bar. in a flash for AOE mesmer dmg or mad protection from a guardian or mad skills like an engi that copies similarly from my utilities (imagine that 2 shadow steps 2 caltrops 2 shadow refuges of sorts) you take all the f’s away from all the classes. you might notice how a thief is then in “god” mode. without the f1s in a mesmer….they cant even hope to beat a thief. right now they just run in circles and dodge while buffed up phantasms do dmg burst then shatter boom boom dead if ur even semi close.

and ps you cant get into an enemy zerg unless they are super small and you have 19-23k hp. i run 22.45k hp and even i have an incredibly hard time getting out without SS even then im almost dead. maybe ur zergs are small but oursare 60 v 60 to 100 v 100. make me a video of going into a zerg like that and doing something “helpful” not just porting in and out lol ill be impressed. tell u what. u do that and cast 3 cluster bombs ill bow down and call you king. maybe if we had 3-5 secs of invulnerability like every other class we could. we dont have very much flexibility as you call it endless. our evades are .25 secs on skills that take 1 second to 1.5 seconds to complete. they arent true evades….but debilitating skills setting us up to be killedhelplessly as we finish them. hopefully this patch they touch up on such stuff but heres hoping. btw. everything i said above is fact and non mere opinion…..all made with comparison…. i mean guardian got what like 5 to 1 skill ratio from f skills? and affected up to like 50 allies and 50+ enemies…..thief can do 5 allies and 1 enemy with f skill(). HUUUUUGE differential. thief f1 is good in maybe a 1 v 1. but 1 v1 has no place in this game….yet. once we have 1 v 1 tournements and play styles or places to do it where we get rewarded…. people have no reason to complain about thieves. they actually need a slight defense/slippery(ability) boost so we can really contribute to zerg v zerg without using the stay back sb venom share Hp build.

they are maybe the 4th best class….
In my opinion
1)Guardians -(best overall group play and productivity. Offensive and Defensive)
2)Mesmers -Great AOE suviability and HUGE dmg
3-4)Eles/Warriors: Ele Spam skills and number #1 in: Mobility-heals-DMG reduction-Skill spamming and arguably condi removal-CC. Warrior is your base player. Good to superior dmg with good to superior defense with the fastest sprint / dash away in game. also has really great melee AOe and debilitating 5 sec immob and kd’s. every zerg needs one but not going to OP anyone in 1 v 1 unless superiorly played.
5/6) Necro/thief necro has huuuge arsenal of AOE and debilitating CC for zerg play with a nice survivability with swarm elite and f skill 2ndary hp bar and skills. Thieves can really contribute sharing venoms that ice….stone….immobilize…and poison with a few hits of each randomly distributed and can also dish out some nice condi/dmg with daggerstorm.

ensoriki.5789:

http://www.guildwars2hub.com/features/editorials/flame-and-frost-retribution-preview
^ Pve/pvp splits

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zCUvIrH2BlU
^ Mug nerf/ mobility enhancement/ condi changes.
Our hints at what is to come.

Though the sword stuff was my wishlist :P.

I love the Mug-nerf. Finally more defensive builds become viable as I dont have to trade them for burst.

To: Travlane.5948

Absolutely true. Me main is Thief with 1.6k play time and I can say " He is totally underpower. He has low heal pool,any one defense utility ala (Mesmer F3, Warrior enduarnce pain pasive+active, Elementalist mist form,shield etc )

I will wait for another Thief nerfs and reroll to another class maybe OP guardian,ele or enginer beacose play for underpower Thief and kill only under level player or just run away from 80lvl other classes(guardian,ele,enginer, maybe warrior and mesmer) is not funny.

Wait did you say that Guardians are the #1 WvW class? Seriously?

-Guardians are slow. Really,really slow. This makes them useless for scouting. To get permanent swiftness you have to use a staff, or trait for boon duration and use two long CD utility skills.
-They have little ranged damage (lol scepter) which can be used to take out siege on walls.
-Guardians can’t run away. Ever tried escaping a zerg as a Guardian, or even just 2-3 people? Sure you can take a million damage, but you have a maximum of three blinks – which are 600, 600, and 1200 range respectively (and if you have these three blinks, you have a grand total of 0 ranged damage). Oh and two of them have to be targeted. Unless there is a handy castle next to you, or can kill the enemy (good luck if it’s 1v2+), you will die.

Sure they are amazing in zergs, and everyone knows this, but outside of zergs they are basically overshadowed by everyone. Currently I’m on Tarnished Coast – a T2 server. Even here, zergs are not everything. Maybe it’s different in T1, but I can’t say.

Am i playing a different game? Thieves do not need more mobility.

Nah, he’s just hiding behind the very few advantages other classes can actually bring.

To: Travlane.5948:

Now a agree with you absolutely.
Nerf Mug? Killing S/p build is not enough for you Anet? Do you want to destroy all burst builds or what?

Mug+Steal is a 45 sec cd and do the same damage than cloack and dagger in pve/wvw.

If I am honest, I would like to be able to do damage while specing into Tricks and Acrobats as I believe these two lines to be the most interesting (not powerful, just interesting) Having thieves rely on stealth for survivability is silly as it forces us into Shadow Arts, then they nerf stealth… go figure. I have used Mug and it is nice, but again, I believe that relying on this one skills to burst is silly, it should compliment builds not be the basis.

Currently if you spec 10/30/30/0/0 you get more damage and survivability that any build that uses the majority of points in Tricks and Acrobats.

I love the notion of p/p and am getting into sword/dagger and Dagger/pistol (non-stealth variant) but I cannot give up the Shortbow. I like the idea of a mobile thief as opposed to a stealthed thief. But the traits for stealthing is just too strong, remove conditions, blind nearby and self heal.

Currently it would seem that Stealthing is too powerful to a point where you kitten yourself if you don’t take it. having alternatives to the stealth so we are able to pick some of the benefits we get in stealth but in other avenues like dodging removes a condition and leaves a condition field on the floor based on the condition that was stripped. That was just an example…

Additionally P/P needs A LOT of love. I love the feel of the set, but it just does so much less damage than other options. It is also the least slippery of out weapon sets. I would like to see the pistol #4 skill daze nearby enemies, move the player back half the distance of withdraw+ evade so it is a daze, dodge, gap creator. I got this idea from the engi rifle knock back which knocks the engi down and knocks the opponent back, seeing as its a pistol, overloading it with blackpowder would provide a kick to knock the thief back while dazing the target from the boom of the gun as opposed to the bullet.

additionally pistol #1 skill could scale with power better so that either a condition based user or a power based user can use this weapon to good effect based on what they choose to focus on.

Pistol #2 needs an aoe, maybe a trick shot like skill that applies poison cripple and vulnerability on alternative hits. so the skill would ricochet 3 times and hit the first with poison, 2nd with cripple and 3rd with vulnerability.
thoughts behind this is that in a group it would be beneficial for thief to keep switching targets to get the most out of the conditions all the while doing damage in an aoe like manner.

pistol#3, unless buffing the damage, touch this, you die.

pistol# 5, nice vs melee but very situational (unless you are D/P) would rather this be more of a survival tool vs ranged but we have smoke screen and daggerstorm for this. and the aoe smoke has its uses

Ok this was waaay longer than I anticipated… No trolling here, just love mobility thief over stealth. But at the end of the day, it really is horses for courses.

Evilek.5690:

To: Travlane.5948

Absolutely true. Me main is Thief with 1.6k play time and I can say " He is totally underpower. He has low heal pool,any one defense utility ala (Mesmer F3, Warrior enduarnce pain pasive+active, Elementalist mist form,shield etc )

I will wait for another Thief nerfs and reroll to another class maybe OP guardian,ele or enginer beacose play for underpower Thief and kill only under level player or just run away from 80lvl other classes(guardian,ele,enginer, maybe warrior and mesmer) is not funny.

yeah the next big thief nerf im done too. hopefully if the mug nerf we will get a HUGE fix on defense. it would have to be huge even without mug.

bladie.5084:

Am i playing a different game? Thieves do not need more mobility.

really? how about defense? other than venom share theives cant really support thier guild/zerg well at all.

Zeoli.3402:

If I am honest, I would like to be able to do damage while specing into Tricks and Acrobats as I believe these two lines to be the most interesting (not powerful, just interesting) Having thieves rely on stealth for survivability is silly as it forces us into Shadow Arts, then they nerf stealth… go figure. I have used Mug and it is nice, but again, I believe that relying on this one skills to burst is silly, it should compliment builds not be the basis.

Currently if you spec 10/30/30/0/0 you get more damage and survivability that any build that uses the majority of points in Tricks and Acrobats.

I love the notion of p/p and am getting into sword/dagger and Dagger/pistol (non-stealth variant) but I cannot give up the Shortbow. I like the idea of a mobile thief as opposed to a stealthed thief. But the traits for stealthing is just too strong, remove conditions, blind nearby and self heal.

Currently it would seem that Stealthing is too powerful to a point where you kitten yourself if you don’t take it. having alternatives to the stealth so we are able to pick some of the benefits we get in stealth but in other avenues like dodging removes a condition and leaves a condition field on the floor based on the condition that was stripped. That was just an example…

Additionally P/P needs A LOT of love. I love the feel of the set, but it just does so much less damage than other options. It is also the least slippery of out weapon sets. I would like to see the pistol #4 skill daze nearby enemies, move the player back half the distance of withdraw+ evade so it is a daze, dodge, gap creator. I got this idea from the engi rifle knock back which knocks the engi down and knocks the opponent back, seeing as its a pistol, overloading it with blackpowder would provide a kick to knock the thief back while dazing the target from the boom of the gun as opposed to the bullet.

additionally pistol #1 skill could scale with power better so that either a condition based user or a power based user can use this weapon to good effect based on what they choose to focus on.

Pistol #2 needs an aoe, maybe a trick shot like skill that applies poison cripple and vulnerability on alternative hits. so the skill would ricochet 3 times and hit the first with poison, 2nd with cripple and 3rd with vulnerability.
thoughts behind this is that in a group it would be beneficial for thief to keep switching targets to get the most out of the conditions all the while doing damage in an aoe like manner.

pistol#3, unless buffing the damage, touch this, you die.

pistol# 5, nice vs melee but very situational (unless you are D/P) would rather this be more of a survival tool vs ranged but we have smoke screen and daggerstorm for this. and the aoe smoke has its uses

Ok this was waaay longer than I anticipated… No trolling here, just love mobility thief over stealth. But at the end of the day, it really is horses for courses.

pistol skill 1 does need a big boost. i think sword skill 1 should be about 15-20% faster too. yeap thats right….we have only 1 aoe dmg (cluster bomb) wish we would get like 4 intiative when we swap weapons automatically bc other classes get to switch a couple times and dont draw from the same pool….basically they can use their 2ndary weapon skills all right away even if spammed! we cant.. Cnd…miss….Cnd hit …BS maybe hit….and then ur out of attack even if u switch. we will have to see.. btw invis isnt too powerful. its just right. its just acro/trickery doesnt give a way out or much dmg. yeah it gives 10% extra for low endurance/intiative etc but thats 10% of an already low output bc of the lack of power / crit line. invis is a trade off for our lack of defense. not a fair one imo since its not a 1 v 1 game.

Mug would probably be the first place they’ll look to put the boonhate stuff in. Say steal takes all the target’s boons and you keep 2 random ones. Mug makes it so for each boon you didn’t keep, you will do +X% damage on your next strike and your next strike will put a debuff on the target so they can’t gain any new boons for 4 seconds.

Atherakhia.4086:

Mug would probably be the first place they’ll look to put the boonhate stuff in. Say steal takes all the target’s boons and you keep 2 random ones. Mug makes it so for each boon you didn’t keep, you will do +X% damage on your next strike and your next strike will put a debuff on the target so they can’t gain any new boons for 4 seconds.

Lol that already exists.
It’s called Bountiful Theft.
Actually what you are proposing is stronger than Bountiful theft which is a 20 pt trickery trait…

Sunflowers.1729:

Wait did you say that Guardians are the #1 WvW class? Seriously?

-Guardians are slow. Really,really slow. This makes them useless for scouting. To get permanent swiftness you have to use a staff, or trait for boon duration and use two long CD utility skills.
-They have little ranged damage (lol scepter) which can be used to take out siege on walls.
-Guardians can’t run away. Ever tried escaping a zerg as a Guardian, or even just 2-3 people? Sure you can take a million damage, but you have a maximum of three blinks – which are 600, 600, and 1200 range respectively (and if you have these three blinks, you have a grand total of 0 ranged damage). Oh and two of them have to be targeted. Unless there is a handy castle next to you, or can kill the enemy (good luck if it’s 1v2+), you will die.

Sure they are amazing in zergs, and everyone knows this, but outside of zergs they are basically overshadowed by everyone. Currently I’m on Tarnished Coast – a T2 server. Even here, zergs are not everything. Maybe it’s different in T1, but I can’t say.

sunflowers…..im not picking on you when i say this…YOU ARE EVERYTHING THAT IS WRONG with complainers and forum writers in and outside of this game. “outside a zerg the suck” really…..1 v 2 i win all the time….try specing for burn/retal and good heals. u dont even have to attack to win. literally. its a joke. so op! ok and skill 3 and 2 from staff and 2 skills from scepter hit siege. getting away? try use sanctuary……Line of warding…..then skill 3 from staff….then switch to GS and use skills 3 to leap…..gives swift plus retal. sorry ur obviously not a guardian or a good one. theres no way one person can kill a defensive guardian before he reaches his zerg or castle . even 2 people would have an insanely hard time. in a GOOD guild or GOOD zerg you have like about 50-60 minimum running. our guild organizes so we have 5-7 guardians. 4 thieves running venom share…..several necros just amazing in zergs with aoes heals condi switchs and ice dmg etc CC etc….. engineers are annoying as hell bc with al their ground targeting they do alot more dmg than a thief in zerg play bc of aoe and u dont really see them in the midst just throwing kitten out there…..anyway….we run zergs so you just just have a bunch of randoms out there. we make sure there is a minimum of this a minimum of that before we go. on vent commander (on retreat) shouts GUARDS! line of wardings!! santuaries!!!! everyone else share swift share…..FALL BACK!…..ill tell you what….if u say a guard can get away from a zerg than ur guild/zerg is really not good. 6 lions of warding 6 sanctuaries….(even 3 of each is more than enough) its impossible for a zerg to get to you. even better for blocking them from getting in to their tower to defend. here i am giving tips now. anyway. shall i touch spvp? in spvp they are gods. bunker builds are just insane. i have 12k+ kills on might thief….most of which are not from zerg kills. dreamer plus almost 2 other legendaries full ascnede etc,…..and even i avoid guardians in spvp. hell even rangers are amazing there.

so my first comment said that you are everything that is wrong with complainers. let me touch on that before i bounce. that is bc your idealism…….priorities……objectives…..and focus are just totally off base. you talk about them (or anyone) being bad outside large group and zerg play…..why? there are no need for anythign else in wvw. GROUP PLAY IS 100% OF WVW! THERE IS NOTHING ELSE! 15+ is the minimum you should run with to really accomplish getting any points. of course you can send 1 or 2 here and there for camps….. but those arent the game changers. and spvp they are gods……and even if u dont agree with me….A your idea of guardian is way off as im sure many will tell you here. and B it is my opinion. the list above there stating the order of strongest OVERALL……is very close. may not be perfect but its as i see it from a tryingly unbiased P.O.V.

Atherakhia.4086:

Mug would probably be the first place they’ll look to put the boonhate stuff in. Say steal takes all the target’s boons and you keep 2 random ones. Mug makes it so for each boon you didn’t keep, you will do +X% damage on your next strike and your next strike will put a debuff on the target so they can’t gain any new boons for 4 seconds.

too bad trickery trait line is never used…even in condi builds :P

Travlane.5948:

Arganthium.5638:

Personally, if we get Mug nerfed for enhanced mobility, then I support this patch with every ounce of my un-soul.

u reallize mug is 35% of burst builds. it will destroy EVERY burst build

Thank god.

Then we can finally balance thieves without having to consider these boring kitten skills that force us into certain specs and instead try and make interesting ones viable. Thieves are borderline bad anyway in sPvP; getting worse for another patch isn’t bad if it improves thieves in the end.

@humorless…… there has to be a high dmg character in the game. so i dont see them really killin that burst dmg…..one tanky(guardian) one tricky magical (mesmer) one caster (ele) one tech (engi) one everyman (warrior) etc etc and so on and so forth. so to make a thieves dmg less than mesmer and warrior is just bad lore and bad \balance. even if they dont take mug away they SHOULD give thieves a 15-20% defense boost. with mug gone dare i say 25-28% more defense. if u drop mug…..warriors become more dmging ….emsmers are already more damaging.

I’m sure they’ll remove the damage of mug by 50%, add our stealth to 6 seconds, remove 2 initiative from our standard 12, increase all skills use of initiative by 3 and decrease our heals. But I’m sure we’ll get a skill that moves a bit further.

well im ready for it. complainers hate playing against mesmer/thieves bc they are tricky. and good at 1 v 1. even tho that has nada to do with this game. literally. nothing. nincompoops

Travlane.5948:

@humorless…… there has to be a high dmg character in the game. so i dont see them really killin that burst dmg…..one tanky(guardian) one tricky magical (mesmer) one caster (ele) one tech (engi) one everyman (warrior) etc etc and so on and so forth. so to make a thieves dmg less than mesmer and warrior is just bad lore and bad \balance. even if they dont take mug away they SHOULD give thieves a 15-20% defense boost. with mug gone dare i say 25-28% more defense. if u drop mug…..warriors become more dmging ….emsmers are already more damaging.

They can put damage in other places and benefit more builds… rather than mug/cnd/backstab being the only burst combo for thieves.

If you take out mug you remove one of the balancing issues thieves have because buffs to other places would make us OP because Mug is there. Remove it and you open up options for possible buffs in the future.

I WOULD LOVE THAT…however they have NEVER once given us dmg back in any area. not once. i think they need to add some higher base dmg in trickery/acro builds. they arent even viable options as of now. like skill 1 in [p/d] builds

Well, weapon traits need some serious love – as they are so horrid, 100% of your DPS lies in the DA/CS trees. The only ‘builds’ that pull away from this are ones that ignore damage in favor of just caltrop spam for bleed ‘condition’ damage. We need a sword trait. We need a SB trait that doesn’t suck. Only reason people touch the dagger trait (seriously, a MASTER trait that does nothing but 5% to one weapon? But SB is in the same boat) is because it’s already in the DA tree and a D/D burst build could care less about vuln stacking. I could write quite a post on what I would think would “fix” our trait trees. But if they fixed it, I’d find myself racking my brain on how to build my chars :p

I’m of mixed opinion about Mug. Mug is on a long cooldown skill and is the entire key to thief burst. It’s OP with daggers, but a must to give burst on all other weapon options. S/P #3 reverted? S/D #3 made more reliable? Pistols do actual damage on all skills and where #3 does something more than mediocre? SB damage also sucks beyond all recognition, but is made up for against multiple targets… cluster bomb not being physics defyingly slow at long range, or actually being given 1200 range (traited) on the SB is all I would care about. If they started taking things like that, I would gladly take a Mug nerf – but unless that happened, I’d rather they just nerfed backstab to 50% bonus behind to save the other weapon sets being screwed by the change.

We’ll see where they go with it.

Humorless.1573:

They can put damage in other places and benefit more builds… rather than mug/cnd/backstab being the only burst combo for thieves.

If you take out mug you remove one of the balancing issues thieves have because buffs to other places would make us OP because Mug is there. Remove it and you open up options for possible buffs in the future.

Where else is ANet going to be able to boost thief burst to make up for a nerf to mug damage that would improve the class?

Mug is meant for burst builds. You are essentially nerfing all burst builds by nerfing this ability. It’s not even an OP ability. It only helps every 45s, which is about when a thief can burst every 45s…

So how does nerfing mug help the class as a whole? It doesn’t, it just kills the burst builds and forces more thieves to not build around burst. Maybe there are some people who like playing burst and killing something every 45s and playing defensively with shortbow the rest of the time? Maybe not all thieves want to be forced to build around acro/trick or sa/cs.

In my opinion burst itself needs a boost. Almost every class has some have multiple anti-burst abilities and some even have passive anti-burst abilities…

Thieves already can’t kill guardians as burst build unless you hit them while they are below 60%, even then, if they have a quick reaction, you won’t kill them.

If you compared a bunker guardian (best bunker in game) to a burst thief (best burst in game), the guardian would come out on top every time. It needs to be a 50/50.

There needs to be a class that can punish bunkers and burst thieves in my opinion should be that class. Nerfing mug would only empower other bunker classes.

Bunkers are getting out of hand in this game. I fought against a premade with all bunker classes. Ranger, Ele, 2 Guards, Mesmer. The only class I could kill in a 1v1 was the mesmer and that was only if he didn’t blink away from my burst.

The other classes would just hit whatever ability they had to negate all my burst damage (after the steal/cnd hit) and completely avoid the back stab which counts for over 50% of thief burst. So if you nerfed mug or removed it, then burst would simply be the dumbest option for a thief because the whole point of it is to down the enemy quickly. Mug allows you to do that.

So please tell me, how would you nerf mug but improve thief burst at the same time? I can’t think of one good idea…

swinsk.6410:

Humorless.1573:

They can put damage in other places and benefit more builds… rather than mug/cnd/backstab being the only burst combo for thieves.

If you take out mug you remove one of the balancing issues thieves have because buffs to other places would make us OP because Mug is there. Remove it and you open up options for possible buffs in the future.

Where else is ANet going to be able to boost thief burst to make up for a nerf to mug damage that would improve the class?

Mug is meant for burst builds. You are essentially nerfing all burst builds by nerfing this ability. It’s not even an OP ability. It only helps every 45s, which is about when a thief can burst every 45s…

So how does nerfing mug help the class as a whole? It doesn’t, it just kills the burst builds and forces more thieves to not build around burst. Maybe there are some people who like playing burst and killing something every 45s and playing defensively with shortbow the rest of the time? Maybe not all thieves want to be forced to build around acro/trick or sa/cs.

In my opinion burst itself needs a boost. Almost every class has some have multiple anti-burst abilities and some even have passive anti-burst abilities…

Thieves already can’t kill guardians as burst build unless you hit them while they are below 60%, even then, if they have a quick reaction, you won’t kill them.

If you compared a bunker guardian (best bunker in game) to a burst thief (best burst in game), the guardian would come out on top every time. It needs to be a 50/50.

There needs to be a class that can punish bunkers and burst thieves in my opinion should be that class. Nerfing mug would only empower other bunker classes.

Bunkers are getting out of hand in this game. I fought against a premade with all bunker classes. Ranger, Ele, 2 Guards, Mesmer. The only class I could kill in a 1v1 was the mesmer and that was only if he didn’t blink away from my burst.

The other classes would just hit whatever ability they had to negate all my burst damage (after the steal/cnd hit) and completely avoid the back stab which counts for over 50% of thief burst. So if you nerfed mug or removed it, then burst would simply be the dumbest option for a thief because the whole point of it is to down the enemy quickly. Mug allows you to do that.

So please tell me, how would you nerf mug but improve thief burst at the same time? I can’t think of one good idea…

I agree, guardians are so overpowered. The best thief in the world can’t kill a decent guard. I’ve played a very good guard with the a 30/30/0/0/10 build and all he was allowed to do was heal and dodge.. I couldn’t kill him.. If that’s not overpowered I don’t know what is.

Issues.5789:

swinsk.6410:

Humorless.1573:

They can put damage in other places and benefit more builds… rather than mug/cnd/backstab being the only burst combo for thieves.

If you take out mug you remove one of the balancing issues thieves have because buffs to other places would make us OP because Mug is there. Remove it and you open up options for possible buffs in the future.

Where else is ANet going to be able to boost thief burst to make up for a nerf to mug damage that would improve the class?

Mug is meant for burst builds. You are essentially nerfing all burst builds by nerfing this ability. It’s not even an OP ability. It only helps every 45s, which is about when a thief can burst every 45s…

So how does nerfing mug help the class as a whole? It doesn’t, it just kills the burst builds and forces more thieves to not build around burst. Maybe there are some people who like playing burst and killing something every 45s and playing defensively with shortbow the rest of the time? Maybe not all thieves want to be forced to build around acro/trick or sa/cs.

In my opinion burst itself needs a boost. Almost every class has some have multiple anti-burst abilities and some even have passive anti-burst abilities…

Thieves already can’t kill guardians as burst build unless you hit them while they are below 60%, even then, if they have a quick reaction, you won’t kill them.

If you compared a bunker guardian (best bunker in game) to a burst thief (best burst in game), the guardian would come out on top every time. It needs to be a 50/50.

There needs to be a class that can punish bunkers and burst thieves in my opinion should be that class. Nerfing mug would only empower other bunker classes.

Bunkers are getting out of hand in this game. I fought against a premade with all bunker classes. Ranger, Ele, 2 Guards, Mesmer. The only class I could kill in a 1v1 was the mesmer and that was only if he didn’t blink away from my burst.

The other classes would just hit whatever ability they had to negate all my burst damage (after the steal/cnd hit) and completely avoid the back stab which counts for over 50% of thief burst. So if you nerfed mug or removed it, then burst would simply be the dumbest option for a thief because the whole point of it is to down the enemy quickly. Mug allows you to do that.

So please tell me, how would you nerf mug but improve thief burst at the same time? I can’t think of one good idea…

I agree, guardians are so overpowered. The best thief in the world can’t kill a decent guard. I’ve played a very good guard with the a 30/30/0/0/10 build and all he was allowed to do was heal and dodge.. I couldn’t kill him.. If that’s not overpowered I don’t know what is.

Well that is what happens when you constantly nerf a classes damage.

Thieves actually have less DPS then guardians and elementalists do. /Damage per second, not burst. We have higher burst./

I agree, guardians are so overpowered. The best thief in the world can’t kill a decent guard. I’ve played a very good guard with the a 30/30/0/0/10 build and all he was allowed to do was heal and dodge.. I couldn’t kill him.. If that’s not overpowered I don’t know what is.

Cheesy, super-nooby spike combo isn’t intended to work against everything. Deal with it.

ps. The guard can also do nothing if you just perma stealth with d/p, run around with sword #2, or just spam c&d on the nearest mob, wall, gate, siege, pet, upscale or whatever.

There needs to be a class that can punish bunkers and burst thieves in my opinion should be that class.

That class is there, but it’s not and should not be thief. It’s gc shatter Mesmer.

Master of Timespace.2548:

I agree, guardians are so overpowered. The best thief in the world can’t kill a decent guard. I’ve played a very good guard with the a 30/30/0/0/10 build and all he was allowed to do was heal and dodge.. I couldn’t kill him.. If that’s not overpowered I don’t know what is.

Cheesy, super-nooby spike combo isn’t intended to work against everything. Deal with it.

ps. The guard can also do nothing if you just keep perma stealthing with d/p, running around with sword #2, or just spamming c&d on the nearest mob, wall, gate, siege, pet, upscale or whatever.

That wasn’t the point.. the point was that with the burstiest build, I could not kill him.. If I wanted to survive, no class can kill me.. but that’d mean I’d just be running away. The whole point was to see if I could burst him with him just standing in front of me and tanking all my damage. My main build isn’t a burst build anways; calm down a bit.

Master of Timespace.2548:

I agree, guardians are so overpowered. The best thief in the world can’t kill a decent guard. I’ve played a very good guard with the a 30/30/0/0/10 build and all he was allowed to do was heal and dodge.. I couldn’t kill him.. If that’s not overpowered I don’t know what is.

Cheesy, super-nooby spike combo isn’t intended to work against everything. Deal with it.

ps. The guard can also do nothing if you just keep perma stealthing with d/p, running around with sword #2, or just spamming c&d on the nearest mob, wall, gate, siege, pet, upscale or whatever.

ur right its not supposed to work against everything. apparently its supposed to work against nothing :P a guardian can kill you by doing nothing. u know that right? just stand still with heals and dodges using retal/burns. he wont even attack and will kill 99.9% of all thievs if he is a good guard. thief cant deal with necros….if a necro uses swarm elite for like what double the hp then the 2ndary HP bar from F skills. yeah a thief has no chance. no elongated dmg to last beyond the first 5-8 seconds. poof no chance. i can go on about every class

Daecollo.9578:

Issues.5789:

swinsk.6410:

Humorless.1573:

They can put damage in other places and benefit more builds… rather than mug/cnd/backstab being the only burst combo for thieves.

If you take out mug you remove one of the balancing issues thieves have because buffs to other places would make us OP because Mug is there. Remove it and you open up options for possible buffs in the future.

Where else is ANet going to be able to boost thief burst to make up for a nerf to mug damage that would improve the class?

Mug is meant for burst builds. You are essentially nerfing all burst builds by nerfing this ability. It’s not even an OP ability. It only helps every 45s, which is about when a thief can burst every 45s…

So how does nerfing mug help the class as a whole? It doesn’t, it just kills the burst builds and forces more thieves to not build around burst. Maybe there are some people who like playing burst and killing something every 45s and playing defensively with shortbow the rest of the time? Maybe not all thieves want to be forced to build around acro/trick or sa/cs.

In my opinion burst itself needs a boost. Almost every class has some have multiple anti-burst abilities and some even have passive anti-burst abilities…

Thieves already can’t kill guardians as burst build unless you hit them while they are below 60%, even then, if they have a quick reaction, you won’t kill them.

If you compared a bunker guardian (best bunker in game) to a burst thief (best burst in game), the guardian would come out on top every time. It needs to be a 50/50.

There needs to be a class that can punish bunkers and burst thieves in my opinion should be that class. Nerfing mug would only empower other bunker classes.

Bunkers are getting out of hand in this game. I fought against a premade with all bunker classes. Ranger, Ele, 2 Guards, Mesmer. The only class I could kill in a 1v1 was the mesmer and that was only if he didn’t blink away from my burst.

The other classes would just hit whatever ability they had to negate all my burst damage (after the steal/cnd hit) and completely avoid the back stab which counts for over 50% of thief burst. So if you nerfed mug or removed it, then burst would simply be the dumbest option for a thief because the whole point of it is to down the enemy quickly. Mug allows you to do that.

So please tell me, how would you nerf mug but improve thief burst at the same time? I can’t think of one good idea…

I agree, guardians are so overpowered. The best thief in the world can’t kill a decent guard. I’ve played a very good guard with the a 30/30/0/0/10 build and all he was allowed to do was heal and dodge.. I couldn’t kill him.. If that’s not overpowered I don’t know what is.

Well that is what happens when you constantly nerf a classes damage.

Thieves actually have less DPS then guardians and elementalists do. /Damage per second, not burst. We have higher burst./

I’d disagree with that.. It’s all situational.. when I play my shortbow build, I output a lot of damage (20k+ every 2 seconds). But they need to address all the boons from elementalists and guardians and do something about it. They even spoke about it in the state of the game and have done nothing.. I was in mumble with the guardian and he was laughing saying how kitten OP guardians are.

Travlane.5948:

Master of Timespace.2548:

I agree, guardians are so overpowered. The best thief in the world can’t kill a decent guard. I’ve played a very good guard with the a 30/30/0/0/10 build and all he was allowed to do was heal and dodge.. I couldn’t kill him.. If that’s not overpowered I don’t know what is.

Cheesy, super-nooby spike combo isn’t intended to work against everything. Deal with it.

ps. The guard can also do nothing if you just keep perma stealthing with d/p, running around with sword #2, or just spamming c&d on the nearest mob, wall, gate, siege, pet, upscale or whatever.

ur right its not supposed to work against everything. apparently its supposed to work against nothing :P a guardian can kill you by doing nothing. u know that right? just stand still with heals and dodges using retal/burns. he wont even attack and will kill 99.9% of all thievs if he is a good guard. thief cant deal with necros….if a necro uses swarm elite for like what double the hp then the 2ndary HP bar from F skills. yeah a thief has no chance. no elongated dmg to last beyond the first 5-8 seconds. poof no chance. i can go on about every class

The balance in this game is asymmetric. A good sword thief wins my glass shatter with ease, yet almost all bunkers have really hard time against me. No build should work against everything.
Also, p/d condition thief can destroy some bunker builds that a damage thief can’t.

ensoriki.5789:

Atherakhia.4086:

Mug would probably be the first place they’ll look to put the boonhate stuff in. Say steal takes all the target’s boons and you keep 2 random ones. Mug makes it so for each boon you didn’t keep, you will do +X% damage on your next strike and your next strike will put a debuff on the target so they can’t gain any new boons for 4 seconds.

Lol that already exists.
It’s called Bountiful Theft.
Actually what you are proposing is stronger than Bountiful theft which is a 20 pt trickery trait…

What I was trying to propose was the introduction of the boon hate mechanic where it dispells all boons and then puts a debuff on the target so they couldn’t reboon for 4 seconds. The stealing of boons was just fluff.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Travlane.5948:

Master of Timespace.2548:

I agree, guardians are so overpowered. The best thief in the world can’t kill a decent guard. I’ve played a very good guard with the a 30/30/0/0/10 build and all he was allowed to do was heal and dodge.. I couldn’t kill him.. If that’s not overpowered I don’t know what is.

Cheesy, super-nooby spike combo isn’t intended to work against everything. Deal with it.

ps. The guard can also do nothing if you just keep perma stealthing with d/p, running around with sword #2, or just spamming c&d on the nearest mob, wall, gate, siege, pet, upscale or whatever.

ur right its not supposed to work against everything. apparently its supposed to work against nothing :P a guardian can kill you by doing nothing. u know that right? just stand still with heals and dodges using retal/burns. he wont even attack and will kill 99.9% of all thievs if he is a good guard. thief cant deal with necros….if a necro uses swarm elite for like what double the hp then the 2ndary HP bar from F skills. yeah a thief has no chance. no elongated dmg to last beyond the first 5-8 seconds. poof no chance. i can go on about every class

The balance in this game is asymmetric. A good sword thief wins my glass shatter with ease, yet almost all bunkers have really hard time against me. No build should work against everything.

What you’re not understanding is that NO, NONE, ZERO, NADA thief build works against a guardian lol. I don’t have troubles with any other classes, except those really really tanky eles and guardians that you can’t do anything no matter what.

Issues.5789:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Travlane.5948:

Master of Timespace.2548:

I agree, guardians are so overpowered. The best thief in the world can’t kill a decent guard. I’ve played a very good guard with the a 30/30/0/0/10 build and all he was allowed to do was heal and dodge.. I couldn’t kill him.. If that’s not overpowered I don’t know what is.

Cheesy, super-nooby spike combo isn’t intended to work against everything. Deal with it.

ps. The guard can also do nothing if you just keep perma stealthing with d/p, running around with sword #2, or just spamming c&d on the nearest mob, wall, gate, siege, pet, upscale or whatever.

ur right its not supposed to work against everything. apparently its supposed to work against nothing :P a guardian can kill you by doing nothing. u know that right? just stand still with heals and dodges using retal/burns. he wont even attack and will kill 99.9% of all thievs if he is a good guard. thief cant deal with necros….if a necro uses swarm elite for like what double the hp then the 2ndary HP bar from F skills. yeah a thief has no chance. no elongated dmg to last beyond the first 5-8 seconds. poof no chance. i can go on about every class

The balance in this game is asymmetric. A good sword thief wins my glass shatter with ease, yet almost all bunkers have really hard time against me. No build should work against everything.

What you’re not understanding is that NO, NONE, ZERO, NADA thief build works against a guardian lol. I don’t have troubles with any other classes, except those really really tanky eles and guardians that you can’t do anything no matter what.

Yes, you are right, no class can win against a well enough played spammer master, aka d/d ele. The problem here is that the ele can also deal decent damage and move around fast as the wind.

The tank guard isn’t as big of a problem as they are fairly slow, are easy to kite and deal only a little damage. They are fairly easy to hit hard with shatter mesmer: their blocks and blinds negate only 1 attack, but the shatter burst comes in many small packets. Soo, at best the guard can tank you, but so what? How is it worse than being able to perma stealth?
Sword thief and p/d thief also work well enough against guards that aren’t pure tanks.

Master of Timespace.2548:

I agree, guardians are so overpowered. The best thief in the world can’t kill a decent guard. I’ve played a very good guard with the a 30/30/0/0/10 build and all he was allowed to do was heal and dodge.. I couldn’t kill him.. If that’s not overpowered I don’t know what is.

Cheesy, super-nooby spike combo isn’t intended to work against everything. Deal with it.

ps. The guard can also do nothing if you just perma stealth with d/p, run around with sword #2, or just spam c&d on the nearest mob, wall, gate, siege, pet, upscale or whatever.

There needs to be a class that can punish bunkers and burst thieves in my opinion should be that class.

That class is there, but it’s not and should not be thief. It’s gc shatter Mesmer.

Well then I ask you this, what is meant to kill guardians? Guardians pretty much can take anything on 1v1. Usually even multiple people can’t kill a guardian…

Right now the bunker classes are supreme. Thief burst is the only thing that can even make them blink. Nerf thief burst, gimmicky or not, and bunkers will rule gw2…

I am pretty sure ANet said that in one of the SOTGs that thieves were meant to be able to burst down bunkers, if mug gets nerfed then we are even more screwed vs. a bunker.