Balance - what I hate most

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Posted by: Swimfan.8014

Swimfan.8014

Maybe it’s not worth opening a topic for this matter but I need to get my opinion out after playing mostly every class now and at last finding thief as my fav professsion (just like the way he plays plus he has no CDs and you really need to manage your ini).
We hear screaming, we hear shouting but something is off about all this crying cursing.

  • The thief is meant to be the highest dps class, playing the most risky game of all profession being forced to play close to enemies by nearly having no reassurance beside stealth to get some distance
    → Warriors are like Thiefs highly dps classes BUT they can’t be supposed to be that strong since they balance their gameplay by best armor+hp pool ingame*

Now there comes all this screaming how high the damage of a thief is and Anet (who seems to get more clueless with every patch they’re throwing at us) takes away more and more damage leaving us as one of the most risky classes with damage on par with classes who are not supposed to be damage-dealers in the first place.
That is what I call some broken balance.

I’m not trying to tell you that thiefs are supposed to be on perma stealth or anything whatsoever but if we don’t do the highest damage, there is absolutly no way the game works as it should.
Cutting our damage cuts our surviability leaving us dead. We can’t win long fights, that’s not how the class is build. We win quickly or we don’t win at all but we can’t win with second best armor, least Hp and mediocre damage and that is what most other players not playing thief just don’t get.
And now try to believe in Anet, watch the livestream and see those- I dunno, I lost all my words the moment I saw them – laughing and joking about the fact that everyone needs to roll a warrior because they’re so strong TOTALLY FORGETTING the fact that it’s their fault warrior ended like this!

I already feel better having said this

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Posted by: Shakya.6351

Shakya.6351

i really dont like warrior playstyle…i prefer to play my thief and be weaker but at least have some fun

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Posted by: Doggie.3184

Doggie.3184

Don’t forget highest mobility too with Warriors. I can instant shadowstep 3600 range into the distance with a sword build and a Warrior can still reach me in seconds before my CDs are back, while their’s return fast and doesn’t require a distant target. ;x it’s happened and it made me sad.

They do super hero-type damage, high armor even in berserker, crazy fast and strong condition damage that can be hybrid’d into heavy crit dmg at same time, highest mobility despite being weighed down a lot more by the apparently not so heavy heavy armor, best health regen w/o doing anything~ as Thief needs to hit things to regen and the active is pathetic w/o healing power.

We’ll never have anything though as long as we’re cursed with 30 Shadow Arts.

| Fort Aspenwood (NA): Sylvari Daredevil Thief Main: All Classes 80. |
Please Remove/Fix Thief Trait: “Last Refuge.”
“Hard to Catch” is a Horrible and Useless Trait. Fixed 6/23/15. Praise Dwayna.

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Posted by: Viking Jorun.5413

Viking Jorun.5413

Don’t forget highest mobility too with Warriors. I can instant shadowstep 3600 range into the distance with a sword build and a Warrior can still reach me in seconds before my CDs are back, while their’s return fast and doesn’t require a distant target. ;x it’s happened and it made me sad.

They do super hero-type damage, high armor even in berserker, crazy fast and strong condition damage that can be hybrid’d into heavy crit dmg at same time, highest mobility despite being weighed down a lot more by the apparently not so heavy heavy armor, best health regen w/o doing anything~ as Thief needs to hit things to regen and the active is pathetic w/o healing power.

We’ll never have anything though as long as we’re cursed with 30 Shadow Arts.

Please, enlighten me with your tears, because I happen to not run any stealth, have a faster land speed and higher mobility than warriors, and am built as a hard counter to roaming warriors and terrormancers. Please L2P your class before making blind claims that you’ve never tested yourself, because warriors can’t instantly chain teleports.

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Posted by: Luto.1938

Luto.1938

“Positive things coming that won’t be discussed yet (same for ranger)”

Wonder what the devs mean by this…

Luto Locke
Twitch Stream

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Posted by: Sparda.9750

Sparda.9750

i just think is kinda difficult change thief. we could become the OP s prof or the weakest with a few changes. Increase dmg will mean shot every one in a sec in the better idea. And it s not the best way to balance a profession ( i don t wanna see my thief become a warrior )

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Posted by: Impact.2780

Impact.2780

Don’t forget highest mobility too with Warriors. I can instant shadowstep 3600 range into the distance with a sword build and a Warrior can still reach me in seconds before my CDs are back, while their’s return fast and doesn’t require a distant target. ;x it’s happened and it made me sad.

They do super hero-type damage, high armor even in berserker, crazy fast and strong condition damage that can be hybrid’d into heavy crit dmg at same time, highest mobility despite being weighed down a lot more by the apparently not so heavy heavy armor, best health regen w/o doing anything~ as Thief needs to hit things to regen and the active is pathetic w/o healing power.

We’ll never have anything though as long as we’re cursed with 30 Shadow Arts.

Please, enlighten me with your tears, because I happen to not run any stealth, have a faster land speed and higher mobility than warriors, and am built as a hard counter to roaming warriors and terrormancers. Please L2P your class before making blind claims that you’ve never tested yourself, because warriors can’t instantly chain teleports.

He didn’t say teleports. Warrior’s don’t have teleports. The claims are not blind. If you state something that happened to you i.e you saw it, how can it be a blind statement? It shouldn’t be too hard to find other people on these forums commenting about the speed and mobility of warriors. Somewhere is a thread which referred to their chaining of mobility skills as speeding like a drag racer.

Savage Leap: 600 units (8sec cd)
Whirlwind Attack: 450 units (10sec cd)
Rush: 1200 units (20sec cd)
Bull’s Charge: 900 units (40sec cd)
Total: 3150 units

That’s the distances given on the tool tips. Everyone knows they travel further when under the effects of swiftness. The additional distance covered with this chain with swiftness is 600-700 units, putting it over 3750 units.

A thief will have a hard time catching that, especially with Whirlwind being an evade. Thief’s mobility skills require a target, and are designed to close gaps, not create them. To catch a warrior that has evaded themselves 900 units away (outside the range of shadow shot, steal and infiltrator’s signet) or to escape a high mobility class without stealth, all a thief can do is get a movement speed boost and spam heart seeker in the desired direction. It’s not as fast as a warrior, and won’t get you as far, and it will drain all your initiative and render you defenseless for when they catch up.

Just because you don’t know something doesn’t mean the person who mentioned it needs to learn to play, it could simply mean you need to ask if you want to know how it’s done.

EU | Ímpáct / Impact Warlock / Impact Illusions
http://www.twitch.tv/impact2780

(edited by Impact.2780)

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Posted by: Viking Jorun.5413

Viking Jorun.5413

Don’t forget highest mobility too with Warriors. I can instant shadowstep 3600 range into the distance with a sword build and a Warrior can still reach me in seconds before my CDs are back, while their’s return fast and doesn’t require a distant target. ;x it’s happened and it made me sad.

They do super hero-type damage, high armor even in berserker, crazy fast and strong condition damage that can be hybrid’d into heavy crit dmg at same time, highest mobility despite being weighed down a lot more by the apparently not so heavy heavy armor, best health regen w/o doing anything~ as Thief needs to hit things to regen and the active is pathetic w/o healing power.

We’ll never have anything though as long as we’re cursed with 30 Shadow Arts.

Please, enlighten me with your tears, because I happen to not run any stealth, have a faster land speed and higher mobility than warriors, and am built as a hard counter to roaming warriors and terrormancers. Please L2P your class before making blind claims that you’ve never tested yourself, because warriors can’t instantly chain teleports.

He didn’t say teleports. Warrior’s don’t have teleports. The claims are not blind. If you state something that happened to you i.e you saw it, how can it be a blind statement? It shouldn’t be too hard to find other people on these forums commenting about the speed and mobility of warriors. Somewhere is a thread which referred to their chaining of mobility skills as speeding like a drag racer.

Savage Leap: 600 units (8sec cd)
Whirlwind Attack: 450 units (10sec cd)
Rush: 1200 units (20sec cd)
Bull’s Charge: 900 units (40sec cd)
Total: 3150 units

That’s the distances given on the tool tips. Everyone knows they travel further when under the effects of swiftness. The additional distance covered with this chain with swiftness is 600-700 units, putting it over 3750 units.

A thief will have a hard time catching that, especially with Whirlwind being an evade. Thief’s mobility skills require a target, and are designed to close gaps, not create them. To catch a warrior that has evaded themselves 900 units away (outside the range of shadow shot, steal and infiltrator’s signet) or to escape a high mobility class without stealth, all a thief can do is get a movement speed boost and spam heart seeker in the desired direction. It’s not as fast as a warrior, and won’t get you as far, and it will drain all your initiative and render you defenseless for when they catch up.

Just because you don’t know something doesn’t mean the person who mentioned it needs to learn to play, it could simply mean you need to ask if you want to know how it’s done.

Where the kitten did I say warriors teleport? I was insinuating that thieves are the ones who teleport chain instantly, please read my post. I have NO problems catching warriors. Maybe you should try out a mobility chasing build and see how it works out for the warrior before telling me that I don’t know what’s going on. I used to main a warrior. Hell, my legendary is on him. I know better than most how capable warriors are at running away. HOWEVER: if you build right with a thief and sacrifice your crutch (stealth) for superior mobility, a warrior is a snail compared to you. I don’t see any warriors instantly traveling a 6k distance through shadowstep chaining, and they certainly don’t have the ability to scale terrain like a thief with shortbow. Please show me a video of you not being able to catch a warrior so that I may laugh and point out what you’ve done horribly wrong to not be able to catch a little coward warrior.

Here’s my mobility:

  • Steal: 1500 range instant teleport (21.25s)
  • Infiltrator’s Strike: 900 range instant teleport (15s)
  • Withdraw: 450 range leap (15s)
  • Roll for Initiative: 450 range leap (60s)
  • Shadowstep: 1200 range instant teleport (50s)
  • Infiltrator’s Signet: 900 range instant teleport (30s)
  • Infiltrator’s Arrow: 900 range spamable teleport (no CD)
  • Permanent Swiftness uptime

Total Range: 6400

Try catching me.

Just because you don’t know anything outside of D/P doesn’t mean that everyone else is wrong. Very rarely do I ever not have a target. Learn to map out where all of the critters spawn around EB and the borderlands and you’ll never lose an escape route. You’ve got to be creative, but warriors are no match for a thief who’s built for mobility.

(edited by Viking Jorun.5413)

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Posted by: Impact.2780

Impact.2780

Pot kettle. You said warriors can’t chain teleports in response to the person you quoted. I said they can’t teleport in response to you. If I was wrong to say it then so were you. Not every class’s mobility is teleporting. Stating that warrior’s can’t as if to suggest they have inferior mobility is wrong, because they have their own mobility skills.

The attack on me isn’t justified either. Assuming I use D/P and using that to attempt to weaken my points is flawed reasoning. You have no evidence that I use it, or that I don’t use it, or that I can’t use all weapons. Your straw person approach weakens your attack, and your arrogance is not appreciated.

The post you replied to concerned escaping a warrior, not catching one. If you take your own advice, and read the posts you reply to, you’ll see that I stated a thief’s mobility skills are designed to close gaps, not create them. You’ll also find that no where did I state a thief cannot create a significant gap, and that I did state a warrior can close that gap.

The ability to access stealth does not have a negative impact on your mobility, as you seem to have implied i.e you don’t have to sacrifice it for mobility. If you were referring utility skills rather than access to stealth itself, for example, shadow refuge, then yes, a movement skill would grant superior mobility. Once again however, the post you replied to concerned escaping, and Shadow refuge is an effective means of escape (albeit without risk, but then, those other skills have their own risk associated with their use in that manner). The decision would come down to what you want to gain from your utilities, and there would be no right answer overall.

You say "Try catching me" after listing a bunch of skills. There is so much I can pick at here.
First is the fact that you included Steal and Infiltrator’s Signet. These require targets, and cannot be used to freely move that distance in a direction of your choosing to put a gap between yourself and a pursuer. You can target something and use them, sure, but then you’ve either gone towards another enemy when you want to escape, or you’ve got lucky and found an NPC you can use. Then, your distance of travel is dependent on how far away that target is, not by the maximum range of the abilities. For steal, being out of range means you don’t go anywhere. So, requires a nearby target, dependent on the distance between you and that target... not very reliable, and certainly cannot have their maximum units considered in the theory because it will more than likely be different in practice. That shaves 2400 units off your "total range".
Second is that you wouldn’t save Roll for Initiative and Withdraw for escaping. Not if you’re half a decent player, anyway. You’d use them during the fight, to help you fight. Shadow Step might be off cool down, and Withdraw may have cooled down since it’s only 15 seconds, but the two combined is still only 2100 units. Again, note the "might be off cool down". It’s not a guarantee. You might have had to use it to escape a stun, or whatever reason before deciding to escape. A warrior’s long distance covering mobility skills which do not require a target, have much shorter cool downs.
Third, infiltrator’s arrow. You would be correct to point out that it can be used to put significant distance between you and a class that cannot scale terrain. However, the presence of such terrain cannot always be counted on. You counted this as 900 units, which is misleading. You’re running while you cast it, so distance is traveled during the cast time, and travel time of the projectile, reducing the distance that this skill actually takes you. Obviously, it shadow steps you fewer units the more ground you travel while casting/arrow travels, and with your swiftness (which a warrior will also have of course) the distance you gain from the skill is significantly less than 900 units. (Note that this is why I used "spam heart seeker" in my example for gap creation instead of infiltrator’s arrow)
Fourth, you listed skills which would use all of a player’s utility slots and their healing slot, and include the use of a trait which requires investing at least 10 trait points into Trickery. This is a very specific and restricting requirement for any player who wishes to maintain their own play style and/or build. While the high mobility warrior build is a reality, it’s bad practice to offer a whole build adjustment to handle one specific build available to one class as a solution.

EU | Ímpáct / Impact Warlock / Impact Illusions
http://www.twitch.tv/impact2780

(edited by Impact.2780)

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Posted by: Viking Jorun.5413

Viking Jorun.5413

Pot kettle again. A warrior’s skills and utilities may not be off cooldown. This shaves 2400 off of their mobility. See what I did there?

The point is, from personal experience, I’ve never been outrun by a warrior, and catching them has never been an issue on my build. Telling me I’m not half decent for blowing my utilities to escape is moot, because of the fact that I’m escaping with those. You seem to have this notion that warriors have the fastest land speed and that’s final. Believe what you want, I won’t stop you from living this enclosed life and not accepting that things aren’t always black and white. All you’re doing is spelling out technicalities that we all know are pretty kitten obvious.

Here’s my build:
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAsaVlYmSO3dS6E/5Eh3jyOWzqVgmdP4q81KA-j0DBYfREREgaAiWGgQAM5pIaslhFRjVNDRVLoqkYaXQ6XwmeQ2eAGfLrWKAsFGB-w

Please stop talking to me and forcing your jaded opinions.

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Posted by: Impact.2780

Impact.2780

Pot kettle again. A warrior’s skills and utilities may not be off cooldown. This shaves 2400 off of their mobility. See what I did there?

The point is, from personal experience, I’ve never been outrun by a warrior, and catching them has never been an issue on my build. Telling me I’m not half decent for blowing my utilities to escape is moot, because of the fact that I’m escaping with those. You seem to have this notion that warriors have the fastest land speed and that’s final. Believe what you want, I won’t stop you from living this enclosed life and not accepting that things aren’t always black and white. All you’re doing is spelling out technicalities that we all know are pretty kitten obvious.

Here’s my build:
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAsaVlYmSO3dS6E/5Eh3jyOWzqVgmdP4q81KA-j0DBYfREREgaAiWGgQAM5pIaslhFRjVNDRVLoqkYaXQ6XwmeQ2eAGfLrWKAsFGB-w

Please stop talking to me and forcing your jaded opinions.

No, not pot kettle. You’re grasping at straws now in an attempt to save face. Once again you’re changing the scenario, which was that the warrior is ready to cover that ground. i.e Their skills ARE off cool down. The thief’s may or may not be. Either way, their significantly lower cool downs means they’ll most likely have at least savage leap and whirlwind attack ready, which with swiftness will come to about 1200 units. Rush will likely be off too since its cool down isn’t very high, and much like elementalist’s ride the lightning, it’s often saved for mobility rather than used to attack. That’s over 2.4k units practically guaranteed.

You also have to accept, much like I, and everyone else, that just because you haven’t experienced something doesn’t make it impossible. I didn’t say that you weren’t half decent - that’s putting words into my mouth. I dismissed the scenario of being able to use all of those skills to escape by stating they would most likely be used before then, and not taken for the purpose of escape. If anything, I implied that were not not-decent. Although I do see how one could misinterpret it as being directed at you, so I’ll clarify: by "you" I meant the thief in general.

I do believe warrior’s have the fastest land speed, yes. Although I never stated it - that’s another one of your miss-interpretations. However, that’s in terms of actual movement speed. Teleporting might be getting somewhere fast but it isn’t moving fast. I believe thieves can cover the most distance in the shortest time when persuing a target, and that warriors can cover the most distance in the shortest time without a target. This is of course excluding the Norn elites due to them being racial, and firey greatsword due to the long cool down.

Technicalities that are significant should be pointed out. Telling me that that is what I am doing is merely an observation. However, if you find them obvious, why did you argue the point in the first place? I won’t stop replying to attempts to counter or weaken my points, since that could be interpreted as me conceding, which I am not. I do stop when the discussion begins to circle - when the other party begins to re-use arguments I have already countered, essentially bringing the discussion to a halt.

Here’s an example of one of those speedy warriors I found when glancing at the balance sub forum. It can at least give you an idea of their pursuit capability for the purpose of this discussion. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Warriors-best-landspeed-no-balance/first

EU | Ímpáct / Impact Warlock / Impact Illusions
http://www.twitch.tv/impact2780

(edited by Impact.2780)

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Posted by: Interceptor.2653

Interceptor.2653

I’m with Viking Jorun on this one; I run a pretty similar build, and my experiences are the same: when you go all-in for mobility on Thief, you really make Warriors look a little silly by comparison, even though it does require some creativity and situational awareness.

Fourth, you listed skills which would use all of a player’s utility slots and their healing slot, and include the use of a trait which requires investing at least 10 trait points into Trickery. This is a very specific and restricting requirement for any player who wishes to maintain their own play style and/or build. While the high mobility warrior build is a reality, it’s bad practice to offer a whole build adjustment to handle one specific build available to one class as a solution.

Builds are about choices. A mobility-focused Warrior is making some choices, too: I don’t find them nearly as dangerous as the stun-based ones, personally. The things that they bring to the table are easier to deal with.

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Posted by: Viking Jorun.5413

Viking Jorun.5413

Impact, shut the hell up. I’m tired of your kitten. If you browse that discussion you’ll find that I was also a part of it, as well as the “Warrior = Usain Bolt?” Discussion currently ongoing in the WvW subforum. I’ll be happy to post as many videos as it takes when my hard drive replacement arrives so that I can rub your nose in this argument. Keep it up. People don’t whine about thieves having a fast land speed because most thieves don’t give up stealth to do it. You all pick on Interceptor for the same argument, yet we both know what we’re talking about. Thief may not have a faster land speed when there are no target, I’ll admit that as well. As I’ve said before, I have both EB and the Borderlands maps mapped out by distance between mobs and critters to maximize my land speed. In using my knowledge of what to target and when, I’m able to easily outrun a warrior. THIS is my point. I won’t sit here and argue it with you any longer. Know what class can outrun a warrior as well? A FGS ele with superspeed on attunement to air, resulting in a 2400 range whirlwind on their FGS when every 10 seconds for a full minute, as well as their burning speed (which puts them into combat, mind you. Not recommended).

Anyway, just stop. You’re now arguing for the sake of arguing.

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Posted by: Travlane.5948

Travlane.5948

Pot kettle. You said warriors can’t chain teleports in response to the person you quoted. I said they can’t teleport in response to you. If I was wrong to say it then so were you. Not every class’s mobility is teleporting. Stating that warrior’s can’t as if to suggest they have inferior mobility is wrong, because they have their own mobility skills.

The attack on me isn’t justified either. Assuming I use D/P and using that to attempt to weaken my points is flawed reasoning. You have no evidence that I use it, or that I don’t use it, or that I can’t use all weapons. Your straw person approach weakens your attack, and your arrogance is not appreciated.

The post you replied to concerned escaping a warrior, not catching one. If you take your own advice, and read the posts you reply to, you’ll see that I stated a thief’s mobility skills are designed to close gaps, not create them. You’ll also find that no where did I state a thief cannot create a significant gap, and that I did state a warrior can close that gap.

The ability to access stealth does not have a negative impact on your mobility, as you seem to have implied i.e you don’t have to sacrifice it for mobility. If you were referring utility skills rather than access to stealth itself, for example, shadow refuge, then yes, a movement skill would grant superior mobility. Once again however, the post you replied to concerned escaping, and Shadow refuge is an effective means of escape (albeit without risk, but then, those other skills have their own risk associated with their use in that manner). The decision would come down to what you want to gain from your utilities, and there would be no right answer overall.

You say “Try catching me” after listing a bunch of skills. There is so much I can pick at here.
First is the fact that you included Steal and Infiltrator’s Signet. These require targets, and cannot be used to freely move that distance in a direction of your choosing to put a gap between yourself and a pursuer. You can target something and use them, sure, but then you’ve either gone towards another enemy when you want to escape, or you’ve got lucky and found an NPC you can use. Then, your distance of travel is dependent on how far away that target is, not by the maximum range of the abilities. For steal, being out of range means you don’t go anywhere. So, requires a nearby target, dependent on the distance between you and that target… not very reliable, and certainly cannot have their maximum units considered in the theory because it will more than likely be different in practice. That shaves 2400 units off your “total range”.
Second is that you wouldn’t save Roll for Initiative and Withdraw for escaping. Not if you’re half a decent player, anyway. You’d use them during the fight, to help you fight. Shadow Step might be off cool down, and Withdraw may have cooled down since it’s only 15 seconds, but the two combined is still only 2100 units. Again, note the “might be off cool down”. It’s not a guarantee. You might have had to use it to escape a stun, or whatever reason before deciding to escape. A warrior’s long distance covering mobility skills which do not require a target, have much shorter cool downs.
Third, infiltrator’s arrow. You would be correct to point out that it can be used to put significant distance between you and a class that cannot scale terrain. However, the presence of such terrain cannot always be counted on. You counted this as 900 units, which is misleading. You’re running while you cast it, so distance is traveled during the cast time, and travel time of the projectile, reducing the distance that this skill actually takes you. Obviously, it shadow steps you fewer units the more ground you travel while casting/arrow travels, and with your swiftness (which a warrior will also have of course) the distance you gain from the skill is significantly less than 900 units. (Note that this is why I used “spam heart seeker” in my example for gap creation instead of infiltrator’s arrow)
Fourth, you listed skills which would use all of a player’s utility slots and their healing slot, and include the use of a trait which requires investing at least 10 trait points into Trickery. This is a very specific and restricting requirement for any player who wishes to maintain their own play style and/or build. While the high mobility warrior build is a reality, it’s bad practice to offer a whole build adjustment to handle one specific build available to one class as a solution.

good point. warrior has it on demand. thief has to sacrifice every spot just to be able to ALMOST stay on par

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Posted by: ionix.9054

ionix.9054

ANET doesn’t care. You all will keep playing your thieves each patch. Until there is a dip in thief logins the nerfs will keep coming to appease the rest of the population.

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Posted by: Viking Jorun.5413

Viking Jorun.5413

ANET doesn’t care. You all will keep playing your thieves each patch. Until there is a dip in thief logins the nerfs will keep coming to appease the rest of the population.

Probably. No point in saying thieves are on par with warriors when built right, because nerfs will just ensue our land speed and distance.

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Posted by: Impact.2780

Impact.2780

Impact, shut the hell up. I’m tired of your kitten.

Tired of reason? Sorry, I’m not the type of person to roll over and accept whatever someone says just because they’ve "done this and seen that". If you want a flock of sheep, go make and advertise a youtube video.

If you browse that discussion you’ll find that I was also a part of it, as well as the "Warrior = Usain Bolt?" Discussion currently ongoing in the WvW subforum. I’ll be happy to post as many videos as it takes when my hard drive replacement arrives so that I can rub your nose in this argument. Keep it up. People don’t whine about thieves having a fast land speed because most thieves don’t give up stealth to do it. You all pick on Interceptor for the same argument, yet we both know what we’re talking about. Thief may not have a faster land speed when there are no target, I’ll admit that as well.

You do realise what you just did right? Claimed to make a video to prove me wrong, then agreed with what I’ve been saying? That thief is not faster than a warrior without a target. That’s what this argument was about.

As I’ve said before, I have both EB and the Borderlands maps mapped out by distance between mobs and critters to maximize my land speed. In using my knowledge of what to target and when, I’m able to easily outrun a warrior. THIS is my point.

That may have been your point, but it was used in an uncalled for aggressive manner toward someone who was speaking in terms of flat land - not scaling terrain. I did say you would be right to suggest Infiltrator’s Arrow for scaling terrain being a significant mobility advantage against a warrior (infact, all other classes). As for targeting NPCs to shadow step around, I’ve already responded to that.

Know what class can outrun a warrior as well? A FGS ele with superspeed on attunement to air, resulting in a 2400 range whirlwind on their FGS when every 10 seconds for a full minute, as well as their burning speed (which puts them into combat, mind you. Not recommended).

Anyway, just stop. You’re now arguing for the sake of arguing.

It’s you who’s arguing for the sake of it. That’s what "to save face" ultimately implies. I also mentioned that I was excluding firey greatsword due to the cool down.

EU | Ímpáct / Impact Warlock / Impact Illusions
http://www.twitch.tv/impact2780

(edited by Impact.2780)

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Posted by: Viking Jorun.5413

Viking Jorun.5413

Impact, just stop. You’re almost trolling with how right you need to be, and it’s bordering on a personal attack. Please. Stop. I missed the part where you were arguing over land speed without a target, which having one is what my entire argument was based on, hence having all passive mobs and critters mapped out in WvW to maximize my land speed, and when I’m pathing out my shadowsteps I’m much faster. That was all I was trying to say, not make a big deal out of it and look like some piece of kitten elitist who needs to be right about everything. Get over yourself, because everything is situational.

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Posted by: Impact.2780

Impact.2780

Being right isn’t the same as needing to be right.

If you missed something, simply say that and move on. Don’t try to attack me to save face, and definitely don’t do so then claim that it’s me who is doing it. Doing something like that yourself and then saying the other party is doing it, IS trolling. It’s also very old and very cheap. If you honestly believe my responses are attempts at trolling, rest assured that they are reasoned arguments, although I honestly don’t think that needs to be said. To me, they are clearly constructive and combating the argument, not their author (except for one in the last post I made... a flaw on my part).

I’ll admit that this: "If you want a flock of sheep, go make and advertise a youtube video." is perhaps getting aggressive on my part, and I apologise for that. I don’t appreciate having my reasoning referred to as "jaded opinions" (although I’m not entirely sure what that means in that context), and being told to "shut the hell up" by someone who’s arguments I have taken time to consider and respond to appropriately, because they appear to have no more reasons to support their original argument. Since you brought it up, I will say that you did sound very much like an elitist - right from the start. Perhaps it was just a miscommunication then. Although, I didn’t tell you to go away for it, that’s rude, pointless, and doesn’t help anyone or accomplish anything productive.

EU | Ímpáct / Impact Warlock / Impact Illusions
http://www.twitch.tv/impact2780

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Posted by: Burnfall.9573

Burnfall.9573

Maybe it’s not worth opening a topic for this matter but I need to get my opinion out after playing mostly every class now and at last finding thief as my fav professsion (just like the way he plays plus he has no CDs and you really need to manage your ini).
We hear screaming, we hear shouting but something is off about all this crying cursing.

-> The thief is meant to be the highest dps class, playing the most risky game of all profession being forced to play close to enemies by nearly having no reassurance beside stealth to get some distance
-> Warriors are like Thiefs highly dps classes BUT they can’t be supposed to be that strong since they balance their gameplay by best armor+hp pool ingame

Now there comes all this screaming how high the damage of a thief is and Anet (who seems to get more clueless with every patch they’re throwing at us) takes away more and more damage leaving us as one of the most risky classes with damage on par with classes who are not supposed to be damage-dealers in the first place.
That is what I call some broken balance.

I’m not trying to tell you that thiefs are supposed to be on perma stealth or anything whatsoever but if we don’t do the highest damage, there is absolutly no way the game works as it should.
Cutting our damage cuts our surviability leaving us dead. We can’t win long fights, that’s not how the class is build. We win quickly or we don’t win at all but we can’t win with second best armor, least Hp and mediocre damage and that is what most other players not playing thief just don’t get.
And now try to believe in Anet, watch the livestream and see those- I dunno, I lost all my words the moment I saw them – laughing and joking about the fact that everyone needs to roll a warrior because they’re so strong TOTALLY FORGETTING the fact that it’s their fault warrior ended like this!

I already feel better having said this

Op. let me correct you " the thief is meant to be the highest dps class, playing the most risky game of all profession being forced to play close to enemies by nearly having no reassurance beside stealth to get some distance"

First of all. Warriors should be the highest dps class, and playing the most risky game of all professions" because they are a Tank; alongside with Guardians.

Period!!

Even Arena.net confirmed that in the latest stream.

Thieves are “not forced to be dps class” but because of Arena.net playing Favoritism and implementing an Elitist mechanics to the thief class, thieves are given the single highest dps damage with 8-24k per hits.

Because thieves can hit that high “hit like a Tank”, they play a Tank class role; not being “forced to” but are designed to be Tanks.

Once again, It’s Common Sense; if any class can hit 8-24k damage, obviously they can Tank.

Warriors do not have stealth or Perma-stealth, Warriors do not have near Perma-teleports and most importantly, Thieves are meant to have high evasions with high critics but 8k- 24k is Unacceptable

With thieves having Stealth/Perma and Near Perma-teleport, they do a lot better at tanking and everything else, than Warriors/

Want Warriors to play Fair ?

Give them Near Perma-teleport with Stealth/Perma

-The End-

Advocate of Justice, Liberty and Truth

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Posted by: Chicago Jack.5647

Chicago Jack.5647

[…] a Warrior can still reach me in seconds before my CDs are back, while their’s return fast and doesn’t require a distant target. […] as long as we’re cursed with 30 Shadow Arts.

Well, you’re not burdened by 30 in shadow arts, to begin with. Secondly, Warriors have nowhere near the amount of mobility that a thief can pull off. Thieves are good at two things that no other class can do as effectively:

1) They have high mobility.

2) They have an easy escape mechanism.

Do greatsword warriors have mobility? They certainly do, but they don’t have access to stealth and teleports. Assuming you’re running a stealth build, you should almost always stealth up before teleporting away. It covers the most ground while in a short duration stealth, and (more importantly) confuses the enemy because they can’t just see where you infiltrator arrowed or shadowstepped to. By the time you drop out of stealth, you should have such a distance on them that there should be no excuse for you to not be able to manage that gap. Moreover, Warriors cant insta teleport up to a cliff or other high area. They have to take the long way. Use this to your advantage.

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Posted by: Faux.1937

Faux.1937

Maybe it’s not worth opening a topic for this matter but I need to get my opinion out after playing mostly every class now and at last finding thief as my fav professsion (just like the way he plays plus he has no CDs and you really need to manage your ini).
We hear screaming, we hear shouting but something is off about all this crying cursing.

-> The thief is meant to be the highest dps class, playing the most risky game of all profession being forced to play close to enemies by nearly having no reassurance beside stealth to get some distance
-> Warriors are like Thiefs highly dps classes BUT they can’t be supposed to be that strong since they balance their gameplay by best armor+hp pool ingame

Now there comes all this screaming how high the damage of a thief is and Anet (who seems to get more clueless with every patch they’re throwing at us) takes away more and more damage leaving us as one of the most risky classes with damage on par with classes who are not supposed to be damage-dealers in the first place.
That is what I call some broken balance.

I’m not trying to tell you that thiefs are supposed to be on perma stealth or anything whatsoever but if we don’t do the highest damage, there is absolutly no way the game works as it should.
Cutting our damage cuts our surviability leaving us dead. We can’t win long fights, that’s not how the class is build. We win quickly or we don’t win at all but we can’t win with second best armor, least Hp and mediocre damage and that is what most other players not playing thief just don’t get.
And now try to believe in Anet, watch the livestream and see those- I dunno, I lost all my words the moment I saw them – laughing and joking about the fact that everyone needs to roll a warrior because they’re so strong TOTALLY FORGETTING the fact that it’s their fault warrior ended like this!

I already feel better having said this

Op. let me correct you " the thief is meant to be the highest dps class, playing the most risky game of all profession being forced to play close to enemies by nearly having no reassurance beside stealth to get some distance"

First of all. Warriors should be the highest dps class, and playing the most risky game of all professions" because they are a Tank; alongside with Guardians.

Even Arena.net confirmed that in the latest stream.

Thieves are “not forced to be dps class” but because of Arena.net playing Favoritism and implementing an Elitist mechanics to the thief class, thieves are given the single highest dps damage with 8-24k per hits.

Because thieves can hit that high “hit like a Tank”, they play a Tank class role; not being “forced to” but are designed to be Tanks.

Once again, It’s Common Sense; if any class can hit 8-24k damage, obviously they can Tank.

Warriors do not have stealth or Perma-stealth, Warriors do not have near Perma-teleports and most importantly, Thieves are meant to have high evasions with high critics but 8k- 24k is Unacceptable

Why shouldnt a Thief do 8-24k crits when warriors do 20-100k crits? I can show you a warrior build against a thief that will 1 hit kill a ZERK thief every time, and with that the Zerk thief would not be able to 1hit kill the Zerk warrior in 1 hit ever.

I can show you videos of Players in Zerk warriors doing 88k DPS with 100b (in dungeons), Highest Ive seen from a thief PW for 24k, with 100b able to do it ever 8 sec, a thief would have to do PW 4x to out dps the warrior’s 100b (Remember the warrior is doing auto attacks, Whirling attacks and Eviscerate during that time) PW being 2-2.5 sec long thats not possible.

What about the Ele’s Rush FGS trick, why is no one talking about that?

People keep saying thief can do high OP dps, but in reality if you play warrior, guardian, mesmer or Ele like you do with a thief (High dps, be very patient and hit and run tactics) you too can get players off guard and dps them down in seconds.

SAB or RIOT

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Posted by: Luto.1938

Luto.1938

Because thieves can hit that high “hit like a Tank”, they play a Tank class role; not being “forced to” but are designed to be Tanks.

Once again, It’s Common Sense; if any class can hit 8-24k damage, obviously they can Tank.

I think that you misunderstand what a “Tank” in an MMO actually is. A tank is a class that can “take” hits like a tank. Thieves are most definitely not a tank, they are pure dps as they can not take hits at all or they will be down in seconds. That’s why they have mechanics like stealth and evade. As a thief to do damage greater than 8k it takes patience and skill to position ones self in the right spot and hit at the right time. A warrior just has to stand there, stun + 100blades.

Again hitting high numbers does not = being a tank. Surviving high numbers is what makes a tank…

Luto Locke
Twitch Stream

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Posted by: Burnfall.9573

Burnfall.9573

Because thieves can hit that high “hit like a Tank”, they play a Tank class role; not being “forced to” but are designed to be Tanks.

Once again, It’s Common Sense; if any class can hit 8-24k damage, obviously they can Tank.

I think that you misunderstand what a “Tank” in an MMO actually is. A tank is a class that can “take” hits like a tank. Thieves are most definitely not a tank, they are pure dps as they can not take hits at all or they will be down in seconds. That’s why they have mechanics like stealth and evade. As a thief to do damage greater than 8k it takes patience and skill to position ones self in the right spot and hit at the right time. A warrior just has to stand there, stun + 100blades.

Again hitting high numbers does not = being a tank. Surviving high numbers is what makes a tank

That’s what i said, Thief Stealth/Perma= Survivability=Tank

I can give you a thief build where you can tank 1-25 zerg at ease.

On top of that, i can give you countless of posted videos where thieves doing just that.

Everyone except the thief class can agree that thieves are the top Survivalist class in the game.

Want the truth?

If i create a thread asking the people/players which class have the highest Survivability? 80% will say the thief class because due to Stealth/Perma’s.

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Posted by: Burnfall.9573

Burnfall.9573

I Sympathize with the thief class for being the most hated and despise class in the game, due to Favoritism by Arena.net.

As i will say again, it’s not the thief player/s who is/are bad, it’s their mechanic/s and their design.

In other word, the thief class had no say of their class design and mechanics.

Arena.net definition of Balance = Oppression and Favoritism
Arena.net playing Favorites will only result in the destruction of guild wars 2; it’s already happening.
As the saying goes, “All Oppression create state of War”
As the saying goes, “All Favoritism create state of Destruction”
Oppression= War
Oppression= War against Favoritism
Oppression= War against the Favorite Class
Oppression= War against The Unfavored Class
Oppression= War against Justice, Freedom and Liberty of The Unfavored Class
Favoritism= Destruction
Favoritism= Destruction to Balance
Favoritism= Destruction to the Unfavorite Class
Favoritism= Destruction of The Favorite Class
Favoritism= Destruction of Guild Wars 2

Advocate of Justice, Liberty and Truth

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Posted by: Luto.1938

Luto.1938

Thieves are a far less effective “Tank” than warrior. If they are stealth they do no damage… if a 25 man zerg can’t kill a thief then it’s their bad. Best option is to let the thief run away and attack something that is worth the time of a 25 man zerg. Yes thieves are probably the best survivalists but this is far different than being a “Tank”. To be an effective tank they would have to have high sustained dps while keeping survivability. Perma stealth is by no means tanking. Yes a thief can solo keep lords and pve bosses, but not near as effectively as a warrior or a guardian.

Luto Locke
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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

ANET doesn’t care. You all will keep playing your thieves each patch. Until there is a dip in thief logins the nerfs will keep coming to appease the rest of the population.

sadly but true ._.

All is Vain~
[Teef] guild :>

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Posted by: frans.8092

frans.8092

First of all. Warriors should be the highest dps class, and playing the most risky game of all professions" because they are a Tank; alongside with Guardians.

In both books, to which we might turn in looking at the archetypes for our classes, the thief characters are instant killer, finding weaknesses and striking a fatal blow at the most opportune moment. In game mechanics this is expressed as ‘burst’ and ‘criticals’.

‘Tank’ and ‘Tanking’ in (MMO)RPG has nothing to do with DPS but being able to take/absorb hits, not DPS, a role typically filled by Warriors. In GW1 Warriors had high armor and damage. which they needed for their task in keep pressure on the opposing mid-and backlines, while not crumbling immediately without support from his own backline.

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Posted by: Funky.4861

Funky.4861

Actually Jorun’s first post could be summed up by “kittenl2p noob” as his opening line is dripping with derision. Impact’s reply however was factual and non-aggressive and i learned more from impacts’ posts than any of joruns’ because jorun got emotionally involved and overlooked some of the details in his skill list. I’m not an Impact fan nor a jorun hater but those are the facts.

Anyway, OT: I have little experience in wvw (which is what this thread is obviously about) but even so i’m not fazed at all if a warrior can cover more distance than me as long as it’s running away from me. The warrior can run as fast and as long as they want because thief has superior mobility, which is more important in combat.

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Posted by: Viking Jorun.5413

Viking Jorun.5413

Actually Jorun’s first post could be summed up by kittenl2p noob" as his opening line is dripping with derision. Impact’s reply however was factual and non-aggressive and i learned more from impacts’ posts than any of joruns’ because jorun got emotionally involved and overlooked some of the details in his skill list. I’m not an Impact fan nor a jorun hater but those are the facts.

Anyway, OT: I have little experience in wvw (which is what this thread is obviously about) but even so i’m not phased* at all if a warrior can cover more distance than me as long as it’s running away from me. The warrior can run as fast and as long as they want because thief has superior mobility, which is more important in combat.

Yep, I did get emotionally involved, which led to some poor arguments and blind desperation. The conflict is over, however, and I’d ask that you not try to start it again by pointing out fallacies.