Guild Wars 2

For those who are not up to date. Bandit’s Defense CD has been increased from 15 to 10 seconds. I say that’s a mistake, it should be left as is.

It’s Breakstun, whose primary purpose is to set up oponents. In other words, once your target is knocked down, you could start dishing out some sexy damage. It is a Counterplay. If you are not using it for your primary purpose, you could still use is as a breakstun and just move away from danger without landing your kick.

Now let’s look at an extremely similar skill found witht the Berserker, called Outrage.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Outrage

Now Outrage breakstun also, but instead of knocking down opponents, it fuels the Berserker with adrenaline, the more enemy around him, the better. It’s some form of Counterplay, except the consequence for the oponent is indirect. (He will get sliced just a few seconds later.)

I was one of those guys who thought Bandit’s defense would be unfair for others, without realizing there other skills like this in other professions.

I think Bandit’s defense and Outrage are equal. One has the potential for direct retaliation, the other gets dangerous when outnumbered.

Yet, ours is now on a 15 seconds CD while Outrage is still 10 seconds CD.
Equal cooldown for equal effects.

Discusss.

I think rather than making Bandit’s Defense 10s CD again (which would be really strong)
you should increase Outrage’s CD by 5s.

Although I’d still prefer Bandit’s Defense on a 10s CD of course… I just think it would be too strong.

If Outrage is 10 seconds Tarkan, good for them. I don’t want to be that guy who says “the grass is greener on the other side, let’s burn it”. Plus, suggesting to increase their CD to 15 secs would just lead us to the Warrior’s Forum. We don’t want that. Let’s leave them alone.

Let’s just take care of us. I actually think 10sec CD is just right, it will be strong for the good thief player, and it will be average or useless for the player who doesn’t want to fully commit to the fight.

Let’s face it, Bandit’s Defense is a good utility that also force you to stay agressive if you want it to work as intended. An aggressive should gameplay should have low CDs, naturally.

I think 15 seconds is appropriate.

alchemyst.2165:

I think 15 seconds is appropriate.

Agreed. It’s already a strong utility, and there’s an option to trait it, reducing the cooldown to 12 seconds.

Rangers have 3s block on 15s CD….
Why ?

I’m ok with bandits defense increased cd if the knockdown will be 2,5 sec and/or the block itself gets a duration of 2sec

I think if they really don’t want thieves to have a short stunbreak on daredevil (which I think fits perfectly imo). They should definitely increase the block time on the skill from 1 second to 2 seconds.

So most people are ok with 15 sec CD on the condition that there is a real blocking sequence.

Others jus think 15 sec is ok.

… I just want my 10 secs back cause I know 15 secs with extra block sequence is too hard to negotiate for.

2s block would be nice.

We also need to be able to interrupt it at any point in either animation state

Currently it can get you killed by locking you in to the kick in large fights. I don’t want to lose the kick, as it’s awesome when used in the proper conditions, but we should be able to dodge or skill-cancel out of the block OR the kick animation, thus we could use it as a block/stunbreak in large fights and not get murdered becuase we’re leaping in a rnadom direction to kick a guy.

Alternately, it could have an evade on the kick section since we don’t really control the target, and in single fights the target would already be knocked down Thus, we could still get the awesome kungkittenblock>kick combo in a crowded fight without the drawback of becoming vulnerable while doing so.

You can’t be seriously suggesting a block and a knockdown is equal to 3 Arden per target within just 180 radius.

Outrage is literally a “stun break” utility, the adrenaline is mostly for Rage skill flavor. Bandit’s Defense is more of a counter-attack and is by far stronger even with a 15 second cool down.

I know thieves have their issues, but Bandit’s Defense potency, even post nerf, is not one of them…

Your comparison to outrage is completely off. A block+knockdown is infinitely better then building some adrenaline. Like, not even joking here. Outrage will see 0 use in competitive play. Warrior does not have the space on the utility bar for a silly adrenaline gain skill, that even does a poor job at gaining adrenaline.

Cygnus.6903:

Your comparison to outrage is completely off.

Maybe. And what about ranger’s Counterattack ?

Daendur.2357:

Cygnus.6903:

Your comparison to outrage is completely off.

Maybe. And what about ranger’s Counterattack ?

Weapon Skill. Not Utility.
And no Stunbreak.

I still don’t think it’s completely off.
10 sec CD → Knockdown
10 sec CD → more adrenaline

It seems as Knockdown is much much better than adrenaline, but they both lead to a set up where the thief starts dishing damage immediately and the Warrior start dishing damage after a few seconds. If anything, Outrage is less predictable.

Also, given the extreme squishyness of the Thief we are all aware of, we should be better of with 10 secs.

Kocoff.7582:

I still don’t think it’s completely off.
10 sec CD -> Knockdown
10 sec CD -> more adrenaline

It seems as Knockdown is much much better than adrenaline, but they both lead to a set up where the thief starts dishing damage immediately and the Warrior start dishing damage after a few seconds. If anything, Outrage is less predictable.

Also, given the extreme squishyness of the Thief we are all aware of, we should be better of with 10 secs.

That is true, but you shouldn’t make one skill too strong to better Thief’s squishyness. That will only lead to the necessity of Daredevil in order to take a very strong skill that just outbalances the weakness of the core profession (if you take it to an extreme).

Tarkan.5609:

Kocoff.7582:

I still don’t think it’s completely off.
10 sec CD -> Knockdown
10 sec CD -> more adrenaline

It seems as Knockdown is much much better than adrenaline, but they both lead to a set up where the thief starts dishing damage immediately and the Warrior start dishing damage after a few seconds. If anything, Outrage is less predictable.

Also, given the extreme squishyness of the Thief we are all aware of, we should be better of with 10 secs.

That is true, but you shouldn’t make one skill too strong to better Thief’s squishyness. That will only lead to the necessity of Daredevil in order to take a very strong skill that just outbalances the weakness of the core profession (if you take it to an extreme).

I don’t think the Bandit’s Defense is as amazing as some of you make it seem to be. You see, it is similar to the concept of having sufficient condi cleanse to survive a fight.

A lot of people use Shadow Refuge with the Shadow’s Embrace trait to “outbalance the weakness of the core profession”. That is very strong trait, that’s pretty much our only trait to save the situation.

I like Bandit’s Defense because it is not as strong, it improves my survival, but it still leaves me open to combat.

Idk but just as you said, “Outbalacing[ing] the weakness of the core profession” is only normal, every profession needs to find their way to fill the gaps of their weakness to come out on top. That is why I think Bandit’s Defense is good alternative to other overused defense mechanism we see nowadays.

All i am asking, is leave it to 10 secs. Some others are asking for adittional blocking time, or a bigger window of opportunity for a kick..

I hope you agree.

Tarkan.5609:

That is true, but you shouldn’t make one skill too strong to better Thief’s squishyness. That will only lead to the necessity of Daredevil in order to take a very strong skill that just outbalances the weakness of the core profession (if you take it to an extreme).

and this is exactly what is happening right now. after beta weekend i feel that daredevil is mandatory to compensate thief actual weakness.
take dodges for another fitting examples…

Nephar.3746:

Tarkan.5609:

That is true, but you shouldn’t make one skill too strong to better Thief’s squishyness. That will only lead to the necessity of Daredevil in order to take a very strong skill that just outbalances the weakness of the core profession (if you take it to an extreme).

and this is exactly what is happening right now. after beta weekend i feel that daredevil is mandatory to compensate thief actual weakness.
take dodges for another fitting examples…

It is only a trend. It’s new, people will try it out for sure. It’s only natural that demand for DD build will sore. Give it 5-6 months into HoT, and everything will return back to equilibrium, a few Metas will pop out here and there, but the amount of Daredevil that will remain in “service” will revert back to normal.
Nothing will truly replace the core traits, that’s just pure economics.

Escapist’s Absolution cannot replace Shadow’s Embrace. These are all alternatives.

10s was appropriate for what we played with in BWE2. It was a snap-skill, the KD was extremely short duration and the block duration was miniscule. Popping it predictively wasn’t half so useful as popping it reactively.

If it’s to be raised to 15, it should receive a little boost to compensate. Increasing the block duration by 0.5s would give us a little more wiggle room and allow us to use it more predictively.

Daendur.2357:

Rangers have 3s block on 15s CD….
Why ?

Yup and their block doesn’t stunbreak. The stunbreak on a skill like this is huge since stuns are almost always followed up with a big burst skill, so a 15 second cd is totally fair.

15s is fine. I would like if it operated the same as the new Chronomancer Shield 4 and Revenant Sword 4 where you could keep blocking until you decide to activate the 2nd part when you need it (the knockdown). However, it’s not the end of the world, since it does keep blocking ranged attacks.

I’m okay with 15.

I’m a little irritated they’re already shaving DD, but I’m okay with it.

Um, Bandit’s Defense is a stun break…not just a block + KD.

Bandit’s Defense is the best stun breaker out there, thus 15s is appropriate (even though I still think it has to be 20s).

8s stun break while Brawler’s Tenacity is traited is way broken — even now, it will only bring it to 12s with BT — still broken IMO.

Most stun breaker are on 60s coold down. I wouldn’t complain or bring too much attention to this skill else it will get nerfed hard.

I still think the block part should be longer (at least 2s) and the counter attack should be activable by the user, keeping the block part up for all its duration.
In that way it could be use defensively and don’t bring you back to kick a mesmer’s illusion in the middle of th AoE you were trying to flee.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Most stun breaker are on 60s coold down. I wouldn’t complain or bring too much attention to this skill else it will get nerfed hard.

Pre-HoT, there are 52 forms of stun break in the game. Of those 52, 22 have 60s CDs or higher. That does not qualify as “most” (it’s not even half), and it’s also not accounting for traits that reduce or reset skill cooldowns. Let’s not forget that the Berserker is also getting a stun break similar to Bandit’s Defense, and yet it’s staying at 10s CD…

With all that in mind, Bandit’s Defense could use a few tweaks if they’re wedded to the 15s CD. Personally, I would make the block a rollover skill rather than automatic and extend the duration to 2s. Ideally, it would continue blocking during the kick as well.

Yeah Sir Vincent (and others), I get your point but it’s not the best thing like you mention it to be. 10 seconds was fine, it wasn’t OP, it wasn’t a game breaker (if you want to see what gamebreaker is, checkout all the other elite specs for clues). This couldn’t even be considered a block because it doesn’t even block more than 1 attack.
it blocks 1 out of the ranger’s 10 arrows, So let’s keep it real please. _ It’s a stunbreak + Knockdown_, we really cannot categorize this as a block.

This thing can be life saver, an alternative sustain. Some of us won’t even use it, some will. With all those reveal anti-stealth mechanics forming up around us, we really could use 2 second break/knockdown on a 10 sec CD.

I am just surprised so many people are against something that could benefit the whole profession. 5 seconds is too long for a Thief (with minimal stealth) in combat especially when that change isn’t going to turn us in OP monsters.

Amante.8109:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Most stun breaker are on 60s coold down. I wouldn’t complain or bring too much attention to this skill else it will get nerfed hard.

Pre-HoT, there are 52 forms of stun break in the game. Of those 52, 22 have 60s CDs or higher. That does not qualify as “most” (it’s not even half), and it’s also not accounting for traits that reduce or reset skill cooldowns.

It may not be the “majority” but it is still “most” if you compare the cooldowns, for example 60s vs 30s, there are more 60s than 30s. Then you compare how many 60s vs kitten , etc. Mind you I am speaking within the context of Utility Skills (because that’s what Bandit’s Defense is) per profession. So when I look at the Thief, most of my stun break is at 60s. Looking at the Ele, most of their stun break are in 75s.

You can twist and turn my post all you want, but your post does nothing really.

Let’s not forget that the Berserker is also getting a stun break similar to Bandit’s Defense, and yet it’s staying at 10s CD…

Can it block an attack? Can it knock down?

A skill similar to this is Counterattack (Ranger GS) and it costs them 15s without the stun break.

So compare to that, BD is not something you should complain about.

With all that in mind, Bandit’s Defense could use a few tweaks if they’re wedded to the 15s CD. Personally, I would make the block a rollover skill rather than automatic and extend the duration to 2s. Ideally, it would continue blocking during the kick as well.

You use a weak skill to compare with BD and think that it is justified to make BD an OP skill. Good luck with that one. In other words, I disagree with you.

Kocoff.7582:

Yeah Sir Vincent (and others), I get your point but it’s not the best thing like you mention it to be. 10 seconds was fine, it wasn’t OP, it wasn’t a game breaker (if you want to see what gamebreaker is, checkout all the other elite specs for clues). This couldn’t even be considered a block because it doesn’t even block more than 1 attack.
it blocks 1 out of the ranger’s 10 arrows, So let’s keep it real please. _ It’s a stunbreak + Knockdown_, we really cannot categorize this as a block.

Exactly. It’s a 15s stun break or 12s stun break when traited with Brawler’s Tenacity.

I don’t believe that there’s another 15s (12s) stun break out there.

At 10s, it’s too OP because you can bring it down to 8s CD with Brawler’s and with that much stun breaks, it’s not good for the game.

This thing can be life saver, an alternative sustain. Some of us won’t even use it, some will. With all those reveal anti-stealth mechanics forming up around us, we really could use 2 second break/knockdown on a 10 sec CD.

I agree that there is an anti-stealth crusade going on right now, but it doesn’t mean that the Thief should go over power in response. Before pre-HoT, the best stun break we have is either Shadowstep or Roll for Initiative and I doubt that BD will replace those in a competitive setting. So the real value of BD is in PvE and 15s is the right CD for it.

I am just surprised so many people are against something that could benefit the whole profession. 5 seconds is too long for a Thief (with minimal stealth) in combat especially when that change isn’t going to turn us in OP monsters.

When I first saw BD with 10s CD, I already knew that it was too good, thus I agree with a 15s CD. Even in 15s CD, it still benefit the profession but not in an OP way.

I think a 15s cooldown is perfect considering the stunbreak and other effects on Bandit’s Defense. Anything less is too strong and anything more will seriously cut into its value. It’s in a sweet spot right now.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

You can twist and turn my post all you want, but your post does nothing really.

If factual data and reasoned argument “twist” your post beyond recognition then that’s on you, not me.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Amante.8109:

Let’s not forget that the Berserker is also getting a stun break similar to Bandit’s Defense, and yet it’s staying at 10s CD…

Can it block an attack? Can it knock down?

No, but it doesn’t need to. New skills for a profession are generally designed to shore up weaknesses or support underutilized profession mechanics. Will Outrage see a lot of play? Probably not, but that’s only because Warrior already has insane durability and some of the best stun breaks in the game.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

A skill similar to this is Counterattack (Ranger GS) and it costs them 15s without the stun break.

So compare to that, BD is not something you should complain about.

When discussing utilities that stun break, how is a weapon skill that does not stun break relevant? Is the idea that I should feel a short block and knockdown with major downsides come at such a premium that I shouldn’t question any potential changes to Bandit’s Defense during a period of developers soliciting our feedback? That seems a tad unreasonable if so.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

With all that in mind, Bandit’s Defense could use a few tweaks if they’re wedded to the 15s CD. Personally, I would make the block a rollover skill rather than automatic and extend the duration to 2s. Ideally, it would continue blocking during the kick as well.

You use a weak skill to compare with BD and think that it is justified to make BD an OP skill. Good luck with that one. In other words, I disagree with you.

There are plenty of Blocks in the game that last longer than a second or block more than one attack. As things stand now, the Block and Knockdown portions of Bandit’s Defense have so many limitations that they’re of questionable usefulness:

-Block lasts for one second
-Block only blocks a single attack, in a game drowning in multihit spam
-Knockdown only happens if triggering attack is melee range
-Knockdown happens automatically (have fun hitting pets/phantasms)

Why, exactly, would it be “overpowered” to leave the skill with its current functionality on a 10s cooldown, or improved functionality on a 15s cooldown?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Exactly. It’s a 15s stun break or 12s stun break when traited with Brawler’s Tenacity.

I don’t believe that there’s another 15s (12s) stun break out there.

Even pre-HoT, there are three 15 second or lower stun breaks, with an additional 11 that are 30 seconds or below. Again, this is without even accounting for traits that reduce or refresh cooldowns.

So yeah, I guess I’m not really seeing why it’s a big deal to give the weakest profession in the game a useful stun break that potentially rivals their single viable current choice. Sometimes I think people are so used to being marginalized that they’re afraid of Thief actually becoming good…

Amante.8109:

As things stand now, the Block and Knockdown portions of Bandit’s Defense have so many limitations that they’re of questionable usefulness:

-Block lasts for one second
-Block only blocks a single attack, in a game drowning in multihit spam
-Knockdown only happens if triggering attack is melee range
-Knockdown happens automatically (have fun hitting pets/phantasms)

Why, exactly, would it be “overpowered” to leave the skill with its current functionality on a 10s cooldown, or improved functionality on a 15s cooldown?

That’s where I see the problem.
I don’t mind the 15s CD, but if you block a melee attack you should be evading while knocking the opponent down.

Giving you a choice when exactly to knock them down or increasing the block duration would probably need it to be changed to a 20s CD

Tarkan.5609:

… if you block a melee attack you should be evading while knocking the opponent down.

This one I can support. A 1/4s evade will suffice.

With this apocalyptic mess going around us, we need this guys. Not even joking, we need every extra second or fraction of a second we can get out of this.

Kocoff.7582:

With this apocalyptic mess going around us, we need this guys. Not even joking, we need every extra second or fraction of a second we can get out of this.

Might as well make BD refill all Initiatives on a successful block.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Kocoff.7582:

With this apocalyptic mess going around us, we need this guys. Not even joking, we need every extra second or fraction of a second we can get out of this.

Might as well make BD refill all Initiatives on a successful block.

Still wouldn’t make the Thief good.
We can still be killed by a stern look.

For every reveal they add, they need to decrease this skill’s CD by 5.

^^^

That made me lol, but 10 seconds is necessary. PLEASE GUYS WE NEED THE SUPPORT.

Kocoff.7582:

^^^

That made me lol, but 10 seconds is necessary. PLEASE GUYS WE NEED THE SUPPORT.

After the BS (bologna sandwich) I’ve seen coming out of Engi’s Elite, I fully support the 10s CD — phuck balance and fairness — nobody from other professions really cares about balance and fairness, why should we?

All these discussions we’ve had so that our profession will not be OP are thrown out the window — the gloves are off.

I’ve been so concerned about maintaining a balancing act, but…yeah. Nobody else on the dev team seems to care about it. Karl either needs to talk some sense in to them or needs to let go like the rest of them.

Screw it. Give BD a full 2-second block with a 10s CD, allow a dodge toggle with proper GM traits, make EA baseline with DF, make Vault a full evade with 5 ini, give Dust Strike a Smoke Field.

I don’t care anymore.

Well I look at Number 3 on Scrapper hammer with a FULL second evade coupled with a long range leap and significant damage and compare to our own fighting to have the evade on Deathblossom increased from a meager 1/4 second for years and have to wonder what goes on.

To those who say well we can spam deathblossom by time I get three off burning all my INI and break combat for a time long enough to get that ini back that Scrapper skill is off cooldown.

you guys … * shedding tears *

It’s ABOUT kitten TIME