Guild Wars 2

Cannot really talk about Bandit’s Defense and not bring up the evades a daredevil has. I suppose we could bring up the 12 second cooldown.

that skill is already really strong.

I think it strong as is given it has a low ICD and it has a followup knockdown. If traited for PI this can do significant damage.

It’s already a very strong skill. I don’t think thief really needs buffed any more at the moment, other than of course increasing build diversity which is true for every class.

i think that is his point. it is kinda silly how an “evasive class” has an ability to block/stun break AND kd with only 12 or 15 seconds cd.

No, no, no. BD is fine the way it is in relation to every other classes kitten nal of defensives. The way I see it is that it is on a short CD because the duration is short as well, which fits with the overall fast playstyle of the thief imo.

Edit: Really? can’t say kitten n a l? lol

Fat Disgrace.4275:

i think that is his point. it is kinda silly how an “evasive class” has an ability to block/stun break AND kd with only 12 or 15 seconds cd.

I agree. BD is a low-cooldown low-counterplay get-out-of-jail-free card for the thief that also gives it extra benefits when traiting around with other synergies such as the endurance gain on phys util use (already great for CV) and potential PI proc.

If anything, I think the skill needs an increased cooldown and a reduced duration to 1s flat. It almost innately makes bad thieves perform way better than they should.

There is a bit of a paradox here. The OP makes a good point about access to such blocks by other classes. One of the largest complaints against thief is the number of dodges/evades they have even as this tied to the lack of other defensive measures so many take for granted.

I have the feeling that if the thief could dodge block block dodge invuln while sitting in 3.2 armor with 25k health there would be less complaining then there is about the thief that goes Dodge dodge dodge dodge block even if the former was harder to kill.

Anything that adds counter play against d/p must be removed!!
hue hue hue hue.

PRO TIP: On your keyboard, There is a button located between “3” and “5” it should be labeled “4” perhaps it will help you?

No other profession complains about this utility, they have stability and CC which will counter this. They might also realize the transition from block to kick leaves the thief wide open.

Highlie.7641:

No other profession complains about this utility, they have stability and CC which will counter this. They might also realize the transition from block to kick leaves the thief wide open.

And this fella is the winner. Anyone paying attention to frames can easily destroy the thief during the kick animation.

Azukas.1426:

Highlie.7641:

No other profession complains about this utility, they have stability and CC which will counter this. They might also realize the transition from block to kick leaves the thief wide open.

And this fella is the winner. Anyone paying attention to frames can easily destroy the thief during the kick animation.

+1 Gold stars all around

the biggest complaint i see is the 12/15 sec stun break. the kick isnt the issue at all.

JonnyForgotten.4276:

Azukas.1426:

Highlie.7641:

No other profession complains about this utility, they have stability and CC which will counter this. They might also realize the transition from block to kick leaves the thief wide open.

And this fella is the winner. Anyone paying attention to frames can easily destroy the thief during the kick animation.

+1 Gold stars all around

I see very little incentive to use the kick in general. Only when it’s opportune.

12s cd stunbreak block with endurance refill on it is good enough for me.

DeceiverX.8361:

JonnyForgotten.4276:

Azukas.1426:

Highlie.7641:

No other profession complains about this utility, they have stability and CC which will counter this. They might also realize the transition from block to kick leaves the thief wide open.

And this fella is the winner. Anyone paying attention to frames can easily destroy the thief during the kick animation.

+1 Gold stars all around

I see very little incentive to use the kick in general. Only when it’s opportune.

12s cd stunbreak block with endurance refill on it is good enough for me.

You have to trait the end refill & CD reduction.

I have no issue with thieves have that low of a CD on a stun break due to them having no access to stability, protection, or sustain.

Azukas.1426:

DeceiverX.8361:

JonnyForgotten.4276:

Azukas.1426:

Highlie.7641:

No other profession complains about this utility, they have stability and CC which will counter this. They might also realize the transition from block to kick leaves the thief wide open.

And this fella is the winner. Anyone paying attention to frames can easily destroy the thief during the kick animation.

+1 Gold stars all around

I see very little incentive to use the kick in general. Only when it’s opportune.

12s cd stunbreak block with endurance refill on it is good enough for me.

You have to trait the end refill & CD reduction.

I have no issue with thieves have that low of a CD on a stun break due to them having no access to stability, protection, or sustain.

And most thieves will do this for CV as it is. DA offsets the need for WS, and HM isn’t really considered worthwhile by most people.

I disagree with the skill having the cooldown it does for a stunbreak + block in conjunction with UC. It pretty much makes a given daredevil immune to the CC most kits are capable of. Factor in Shadowstep and SoA and it pretty much just outright cannot be locked down.

DeceiverX.8361:

Azukas.1426:

DeceiverX.8361:

JonnyForgotten.4276:

Azukas.1426:

Highlie.7641:

No other profession complains about this utility, they have stability and CC which will counter this. They might also realize the transition from block to kick leaves the thief wide open.

And this fella is the winner. Anyone paying attention to frames can easily destroy the thief during the kick animation.

+1 Gold stars all around

I see very little incentive to use the kick in general. Only when it’s opportune.

12s cd stunbreak block with endurance refill on it is good enough for me.

You have to trait the end refill & CD reduction.

I have no issue with thieves have that low of a CD on a stun break due to them having no access to stability, protection, or sustain.

And most thieves will do this for CV as it is. DA offsets the need for WS, and HM isn’t really considered worthwhile by most people.

I disagree with the skill having the cooldown it does for a stunbreak + block in conjunction with UC. It pretty much makes a given daredevil immune to the CC most kits are capable of. Factor in Shadowstep and SoA and it pretty much just outright cannot be locked down.

So isn’t the point of the thief squishyness exactly why it should be hard to lock down? I mean if they were easily locked down they would die instantly and be useless, in most fights… just saying…

and yet optimal ppl still run blinding powder on the meta build. This utility just helps the non meta builds that we have stay somewhat relevant atm which is good.

NuhDah.9812:

DeceiverX.8361:

Azukas.1426:

DeceiverX.8361:

JonnyForgotten.4276:

Azukas.1426:

Highlie.7641:

No other profession complains about this utility, they have stability and CC which will counter this. They might also realize the transition from block to kick leaves the thief wide open.

And this fella is the winner. Anyone paying attention to frames can easily destroy the thief during the kick animation.

+1 Gold stars all around

I see very little incentive to use the kick in general. Only when it’s opportune.

12s cd stunbreak block with endurance refill on it is good enough for me.

You have to trait the end refill & CD reduction.

I have no issue with thieves have that low of a CD on a stun break due to them having no access to stability, protection, or sustain.

And most thieves will do this for CV as it is. DA offsets the need for WS, and HM isn’t really considered worthwhile by most people.

I disagree with the skill having the cooldown it does for a stunbreak + block in conjunction with UC. It pretty much makes a given daredevil immune to the CC most kits are capable of. Factor in Shadowstep and SoA and it pretty much just outright cannot be locked down.

So isn’t the point of the thief squishyness exactly why it should be hard to lock down? I mean if they were easily locked down they would die instantly and be useless, in most fights… just saying…

I don’t have an opposition to the thief being hard to lock down. I have an opposition to the thief having a tool that makes it harder to lock down that also makes it easy to get out of being locked down, too. The thing about BD is that it’s overly-forgiving to thieves that make mistakes and get caught, which is totally contrary to how the profession is supposed to play. The Daredevil is both extremely strong on its own and extremely safe. BD isn’t carrying the Daredevil, but it does carry poor players to do much better than they ought to be doing. This isn’t a Daredevil-exclusive problem (all elites are guilty), but it is a problem in general with the design of the utility/profession and the general ideology of elite specs; numerous pro-league players agree with the notion that the game as it stands is far too safe in its combat, and mistakes are very difficult to punish.

tomwjd.8172:

and yet optimal ppl still run blinding powder on the meta build. This utility just helps the non meta builds that we have stay somewhat relevant atm which is good.

Which is why I’m not saying BD is any kind of causality for the Daredevil being OP or anything at the high end. The high-end players don’t need BD because it’s a massive crutch tool that when played perfectly, the profession doesn’t need and can’t make much use of. What I am saying is that it causes bad players to be pretty much just as difficult to lock down as one which plays perfectly, since BD allows for huge mistakes and its low cooldown can be utilized more often than most CC abilities.

What made the thief balanced in the past was its very high risk-factor. BD, among other HoT abilities, really nullify a lot of the risks for the profession in general, allowing good players to perform much better than they should, while reaping the benefits of what the thief can do and is designed to do well. This just makes it demand further nerfs now that pretty much anyone can pick up a Daredevil, slot BD, and survive with relative ease.

DeceiverX.8361:

tomwjd.8172:

and yet optimal ppl still run blinding powder on the meta build. This utility just helps the non meta builds that we have stay somewhat relevant atm which is good.

The high-end players don’t need BD because it’s a massive crutch tool that when played perfectly, the profession doesn’t need and can’t make much use of. What I am saying is that it causes bad players to be pretty much just as difficult to lock down as one which plays perfectly, since BD allows for huge mistakes and its low cooldown can be utilized more often than most CC abilities.

It is not because the high-end players don’t need BD.
When they run dp dash, blinding powder has more synergy than BD which gives them an uninterruptible stealth stack on a black powder, a quick spike w/ backstab, ability to apply instant blind w/o animation vs threatening skills, cover for mistakes or vulnerable frames, team synergy, etc… I’m sure you already know the potential of bp with dp.

On the other hand, thief not running offhand pistol actually needs BD to compete in the field of current meta.

You can argue that BD makes it harder to punish casuals who make mistakes, but so does dp, staff, dash, bound, pulmonary impact, EA, basically everything we received from HoT (with the exception of dp which was always great), but it is “balanced” given the current state of things.

Again, not arguing that. And the entirety of Daredevil/HoT was senseless powercreep that made the profession extremely forgiving relative to core. But that’s my point; why objectively improve a skill that’s already highly-functional for making the profession easy and forgiving enough to make mediocre or poor players get even more bang for their buck, if the intent is to try and buff it to the point of usefulness of BP which is only strong because of over-synergy with a given kit when played well? As you said, and I agree with this statement, BP wouldn’t be taken if it wasn’t for D/P/OH pistol being so solid together when the player doesn’t need to depend on extra defenses.

It’s the same arguments people make about buffing CnD into absurdity; it might make one kit or build better, but it doesn’t really improve the state of OH dagger builds in the greater context of the game, while it just decreases the difficulty of how easy it is to gib people.

Well, I guess OP didn’t make this thread to compare core builds with HoT builds. He was probably considering this buff for the current state of the game not the one that was like 2 years ago.

I’m not necessarily approving with him, but on the other hand I can’t approve with this “core” build mentality which is already obsolete and it won’t come back into trend anyways. You can argue that those sort of skills promotes bad gameplay, but as long as it’s not even the meta and taking into account the current state of the game… the “powercreep”… it’s just a tool to fight other lower skill powercreep… it won’t save you from people that know what they are doing. And it isn’t changing the way thief works too much either. It’s just a choice.

Anyways it’s also your choice to adapt to the current state of the game or continue to be nostalgic of the past.

I just see any response accepting power creep as one which will reduce the quality of the game. It’s not nostalgia. The game is just less fun and less engaging as a direct consequence of it. Reworked Acro is loaded with awful design principles. The dagger AA chain buff was just lazy. Nothing is fixing the OH dagger skills. Many aspects of the daredevil are forgiving to play and diminish from the competitive experience of playing a thief in GW2, much like the other elites.

The apathy of accepting more power and lowering skill requirements with unfun mechanics is something I find appalling in general. It’s the reason why we’re in this mess to begin with.

I generally agree with DeceiverX on that front. HoT could have introduced elite specs AND made an older traitline into an elite so that players would really be giving something up in exchange for taking the new traitline.

For thief, probably the best choice would have been Deadly Arts (rather than Trickery just because that line is necessary to initiative balancing in general). For Warrior, the Defense line would have made perfect sense as a tradeoff for Zerker.

We just need to make elite specs not do “extra” without a trade-off in exchange. This would rein in the power creep.

And that’s the thing; I don’t even mind “extra” in some areas if it comes at a definitive, identifiable cost. The comparison to necro and reaper, at its foundation, for example, is a well-thought-out design; sacrifice the range/caster design entirely for melee cleave/beatstick. Obviously there are implementation issues with some aspects of the reaper (DChill), but the underlying ideology is sound. The commitment to Reaper over core necro is huge, and has its problems. If necro had better stab access, I’m pretty sure most people until the DChill buff wouldn’t have even played reaper competitively. Not to say that’s intrinsically okay (ideally it’d be split even in competitive). But there’s so much emphasis on the elite specs being so much stronger in so many ways that it’s hurt the game. A lot. Maybe NudDah’s more fortunate, but most communities I’ve been in have perished solely because of this problem.

Thing is, most elites didn’t make this tradeoff, and most of the new mechanics are just blatantly more forgiving or un-fun for most players involved. Even the top of the pro players have expressed this sentiment outright, mostly silenced by ANet.

DeceiverX.8361:

I just see any response accepting power creep as one which will reduce the quality of the game.

What power creep? The power level has gone down in the two years since HoT. The last time any power creep occurred was in 2015. It’s now 2017.

The game moved on. Get with the picture. 2014 isn’t coming back.

I think its ok for thief to have something like that but not at the same time having an insane amount of evades. Evade spam is real.

Its funny thinking about whether a class should have something or not considering all classes need to be looked at if we are thinking balance.

Crinn.7864:

DeceiverX.8361:

I just see any response accepting power creep as one which will reduce the quality of the game.

What power creep? The power level has gone down in the two years since HoT. The last time any power creep occurred was in 2015. It’s now 2017.

The game moved on. Get with the picture. 2014 isn’t coming back.

So we should just settle on an overwhelming majority of builds having zero viability. In the name of what was against ANet’s intentions of what the elite specs were supposed to provide to begin with. Gotcha.

If this is really how you feel, please never again complain about the state of any of the professions, game modes, content, or point out any contradictions against ANet’s design or stated intentions, nor suggest any improvements to be made to the game in any of these regards.

With that mentality, let the game outright fail, I say.

Cobrakon.3108:

I think its ok for thief to have something like that but not at the same time having an insane amount of evades. Evade spam is real.

Its funny thinking about whether a class should have something or not considering all classes need to be looked at if we are thinking balance.

Absolutely. Senselessly just asking for more power when the problems are so rampant game-wide isn’t going to get anyone anywhere.

All of the elites need substantial changes and nerfs. I even said that in my first post.

Doesn’t change the fact that such a buff is unnecessary and not in the best of intentions for the general game-state.

NuhDah.9812:

So isn’t the point of the thief squishyness exactly why it should be hard to lock down? I mean if they were easily locked down they would die instantly and be useless, in most fights… just saying…

Because at higher levels thieves never go down to non-thieves.

Right now not having a thief while the other team does is pretty much a auto-lose at least in platinum.

Justine.6351:

Cannot really talk about Bandit’s Defense and not bring up the evades a daredevil has. I suppose we could bring up the 12 second cooldown.

Wow its Justine again lol!

not sure if u are trolling or not but the BD is fine as it is, more like one of the best utility skills along with shadowstep and the bp

Crinn.7864:

NuhDah.9812:

So isn’t the point of the thief squishyness exactly why it should be hard to lock down? I mean if they were easily locked down they would die instantly and be useless, in most fights… just saying…

Because at higher levels thieves never go down to non-thieves.

Right now not having a thief while the other team does is pretty much a auto-lose at least in platinum.

I’m not sure what are you talking about, but I’m pretty sure I’ve seen few days ago on Sindrener’s live stream at least 2 consecutive matches lost on his side against teams without thieves. And he is sort of the best thief in this game’s sPvP mode. (also he was playing in plat on his alt) On the same note, he also dies from time to time, there’s no such thing as thief god mode.

I’m can’t say anything from my experience since I’m not in plat, but I’m pretty sure what you were saying it’s an exaggeration.

A good anti thief team will try to lock down home/mid with a bunker who can at least partly cover both home and mid. That reduces the ability of the enemy thief to decap and forces the thief into more group fights.

Some builds can handle group fights, but others a lot less. If the thief can’t do both then they become a liability against the non-thief team.

Thief might be able in that situation to +1 take down the home camping bunker. Depends a lot on the circumstances in the match really.

NuhDah.9812:

I’m not sure what are you talking about, but I’m pretty sure I’ve seen few days ago on Sindrener’s live stream at least 2 consecutive matches lost on his side against teams without thieves. And he is sort of the best thief in this game’s sPvP mode. (also he was playing in plat on his alt) On the same note, he also dies from time to time, there’s no such thing as thief god mode.

I’m can’t say anything from my experience since I’m not in plat, but I’m pretty sure what you were saying it’s an exaggeration.

Well of course in reality it’s not a absolute, and my use of a absolute in the previous post was just rhetoric for impact.

You’re still heavily disadvantaged though by not having a thief vs a team with one.
This does depend on map though, thieves are godly when it comes to denying secondary objectives like Nifhel beasts, and temple buffs, but not all maps have massive impact secondary objectives.

You can counter a thief’s decap game by just permabunking home. However doing so means that your team has to be able to win teamfights while outnumbered, which is a big if and doesn’t work if the team’s are of equal skill.

It’s not that there aren’t solutions to dealing with thieves, it’s that those solutions all have large drawbacks such that’s it’s significantly better just to bring your own thief.

Crinn.7864:

NuhDah.9812:

I’m not sure what are you talking about, but I’m pretty sure I’ve seen few days ago on Sindrener’s live stream at least 2 consecutive matches lost on his side against teams without thieves. And he is sort of the best thief in this game’s sPvP mode. (also he was playing in plat on his alt) On the same note, he also dies from time to time, there’s no such thing as thief god mode.

I’m can’t say anything from my experience since I’m not in plat, but I’m pretty sure what you were saying it’s an exaggeration.

Well of course in reality it’s not a absolute, and my use of a absolute in the previous post was just rhetoric for impact.

You’re still heavily disadvantaged though by not having a thief vs a team with one.
This does depend on map though, thieves are godly when it comes to denying secondary objectives like Nifhel beasts, and temple buffs, but not all maps have massive impact secondary objectives.

You can counter a thief’s decap game by just permabunking home. However doing so means that your team has to be able to win teamfights while outnumbered, which is a big if and doesn’t work if the team’s are of equal skill.

It’s not that there aren’t solutions to dealing with thieves, it’s that those solutions all have large drawbacks such that’s it’s significantly better just to bring your own thief.

Agreed, and that’s why thieves are called “play makers”. They don’t shine in 1v1s and team fights but they can change the flow of a game if they do what they are good at while the enemy team isn’t able to shut them down with defensive tactics. But I’m of the same opinion: take this away from thief and they don’t have any real use in an sPvP team, besides playing for fun.

I feel like any good team pvp game should have classes like this which can make or break the game depending on how it’s played and how it’s countered by the enemy team.

The problem simply lies in the nature of capture-and-hold.

If you buff the thief’s combat potential like many want due to its fun mechanics, it becomes way too good at everything. But if you nerf its mobility it has zero purpose.

I don’t really see a problem with this skill, especially when compared to something like say warrior’s outrage which is 10 seconds, and can be traited so it gives them almost a 3k heal and an extra 1000 toughness whenever they use it. And they also fart out stability and stun you every 4 seconds. So do you really think its that bad considering thief’s limited defenses outside of stealth? I don’t think we should even begin talking about nerfing thief’s defense until we deal with crap like that and also 12k arc dividers at 450 range.