Guild Wars 2

With the impact of ranged and AoE damage buffs coming to Ranger and Mesmer, being Viable as D/P means you’ll have to pick your targets and moments more carefully.

Positioning and first strike vs these professions will be more important after the changes.

That’s good, because D/P is already a mindless and an easy set to play as it is.

/sarcasm

The change to mesmer scepter auto is the worst potential change to pvp next to almost introducing perplex runes in the game. They are basically giving mesmer an impale skill.

Chicago Jack.5647:

The change to mesmer scepter auto is the worst potential change to pvp next to almost introducing perplex runes in the game. They are basically giving mesmer an impale skill.

Wait for the necro changes, if they want to bring its def on paar with other classes in teamfights he will turn into a walking fortress in 1v1.

^
I think you mean the Stonemist Castle in wvw

i have just tried my mesmer again with the shatter torment trait

took a fellow thief with 15 stacks of torment and 8 stacks of confusion

after patch it will be 20 stacks nice….

so wrong anet so wrong

you will lose players and the community

Chicago Jack.5647:

The change to mesmer scepter auto is the worst potential change to pvp next to almost introducing perplex runes in the game. They are basically giving mesmer an impale skill.

I know I have already posted about this a couple of times but for kitten sake I cannot get over how stupid this change is going to be.

Yeh, had a good deal of people laughing over this isue last night on TS Wvw channel.

Its just plain stupid Anet.

Morpheoz
Far Shiver Peaks

When this comes live now then thiefes will be freekill for mesmers.Anet man WTF is wrong with you.

Leolas.6273:

When this comes live now then thiefes will be freekill for mesmers.Anet man WTF is wrong with you.

It’s the filtering effect thats been going on since launch. There were a lot of thieves what were capable of onesgotting people originally. Those builds were nerfed and people went to other classes, left, or adapted. Since then, many patches have similarly nerfed thieves in small areas (adding up to larger nerfs as a whole) and each time, there’s been a filtering leaving primarily only those who adapted remaining. This seems to me why you see such a bipolar population of thief players. When people complain now, it’s often preceded by “against good thieves” or when given advice, respond with “good thieves won’t die to that.” The reason for this is you never really run into an average thief anymore. Battles are often lopsided in one direction with either the thief dying easily or them killing the opponent easily (or running away I guess). Anyway, the point I’m meandering my way towards is there can’t be any mid-range buffs because those would be overwhelming in the higher tier thief player hands.

Venomshare is a great parallel to this example. Look at untraited venoms (baseline thief for analogy purposes). They are mediocre at best. Once you trait them though with 5 or so traits, they become decent (still not used widely though as it gives up too much). Base venoms can’t be buffed though without venomshare and other venom traits being toned down simultaneously (re: nerfed) or they would become op when traited.

Similarly, I have a feeling thar they can’t buff base thief because they are worried about increasing the skill cap when they lower the skill floor. There’s so much overhead on thief that the top players would become overwhelming for those of similar or lower skills. Go back and watch the latest class balance discussion where they gave their high level balance philosophies and they’ll mention the super-high skill cap that exists for the thief. When they balance that as a whole, they have to take that into account. For this reason you probably won’t see any significant buffs or nerfs (yes, I understand we still get nerfed, but nothing like we used to in the beginning). That’s why we see very small changes during the same patch where you see significant across the board changes to other classes (warriors, rangers, mesmers, etc). The double-edged sword of playing the class with the most potential, but not necessarily the most powerful class.

Tldr: Thieves aren’t receiving significant buffs because it would make good thieves too good.

Leolas.6273:

When this comes live now then thiefes will be freekill for mesmers.Anet man WTF is wrong with you.

How can thief lose against mesmer? That take some serious failing skills.

Junkpile.7439:

Leolas.6273:

When this comes live now then thiefes will be freekill for mesmers.Anet man WTF is wrong with you.

How can thief lose against mesmer? That take some serious failing skills.

Outside pvp conquest mode memser>thief.

Maugetarr.6823:

The double-edged sword of playing the class with the most potential, but not necessarily the most powerful class.

It doesnt have the most potential its just a 100% control class, which means it forces the enemy constantly into defense. The thief is usually always in control of the fight. His class skills allow that. Once you know that and play the waiting game thieves become alot easier. Thats the reason why engineers are the best class against thieves, you cant force all cooldowns and you cant predict everything a engi does which results in losing the control over the fight. Overall its bad class design, for the same reasons why frost mages in WoW are badly designed. Classes in mmorpgs that are build around completly controling the fight will never be balanced. That GW2 has two of them, thief and mesmer, doesnt make the situation easier.

Edit:
Deleted a big rant about how thieves are actually easy to play, would have only started a flamewar.

Ok sorry for that and I guess I overreacted a bit. So back on topic. They dont get what the thief needs, well no sorry they dont see what ANY class needs. Its really frustraiting to see such a nice system go down the gutter. I dont say that lightharded because I usually stay calm and watch what happens. Imo the thief needs, first and foremost, a bit of his play style removed, remove some of the stealth and dodge spam but make him a bit more out in the open fighterish (is that even a word?). That would make him alot easier to balance and if a thief could actually take a bit of beating traps and stuff might be actually worth taking (after fixing them too of course). I guess I watch the necro class changes cause its the last class I play that wasnt in a preview already and if they kitten him up too I just take a loooooooooooooong brake. I mean what does A-net care I never bought a single gem anyway.

Mayama.1854:

Ok sorry for that and I guess I overreacted a bit. So back on topic. They dont get what the thief needs, well no sorry they dont see what ANY class needs. Its really frustraiting to see such a nice system go down the gutter. I dont say that lightharded because I usually stay calm and watch what happens. Imo the thief needs, first and foremost, a bit of his play style removed, remove some of the stealth and dodge spam but make him a bit more out in the open fighterish (is that even a word?). That would make him alot easier to balance and if a thief could actually take a bit of beating traps and stuff might be actually worth taking (after fixing them too of course). I guess I watch the necro class changes cause its the last class I play that wasnt in a preview already and if they kitten him up too I just take a loooooooooooooong brake. I mean what does A-net care I never bought a single gem anyway.

I personally see no point in overreacting about upcoming changes since we do not see them present and cannot test it.
I do understand that logically what they have mentioned may look like it’s going to be such a big deal but in the end it may just end up as a slight change that won’t change much. It wasn’t the first time it happens like that. Anet announced some srs bsns changes while it looked like some classes looked like free kills in 1v1 – but they’re not free kills.

In the end I believe it’ll make thieves to use their heads a bit instead of a simple spam this and that with closed eyes – cause it works!

:P

Tao.5096:

Mayama.1854:

Ok sorry for that and I guess I overreacted a bit. So back on topic. They dont get what the thief needs, well no sorry they dont see what ANY class needs. Its really frustraiting to see such a nice system go down the gutter. I dont say that lightharded because I usually stay calm and watch what happens. Imo the thief needs, first and foremost, a bit of his play style removed, remove some of the stealth and dodge spam but make him a bit more out in the open fighterish (is that even a word?). That would make him alot easier to balance and if a thief could actually take a bit of beating traps and stuff might be actually worth taking (after fixing them too of course). I guess I watch the necro class changes cause its the last class I play that wasnt in a preview already and if they kitten him up too I just take a loooooooooooooong brake. I mean what does A-net care I never bought a single gem anyway.

I personally see no point in overreacting about upcoming changes since we do not see them present and cannot test it.
I do understand that logically what they have mentioned may look like it’s going to be such a big deal but in the end it may just end up as a slight change that won’t change much. It wasn’t the first time it happens like that. Anet announced some srs bsns changes while it looked like some classes looked like free kills in 1v1 – but they’re not free kills.

In the end I believe it’ll make thieves to use their heads a bit instead of a simple spam this and that with closed eyes – cause it works!

:P

I agree with you and we should continue with the despamming trend. Now let’s have a 10 sec CD on kit swaps with a 50% decrease in turrets

Tao.5096:

In the end I believe it’ll make thieves to use their heads a bit instead of a simple spam this and that with closed eyes – cause it works!

:P

Said perplex engi.

Mayama.1854:

Maugetarr.6823:

The double-edged sword of playing the class with the most potential, but not necessarily the most powerful class.

It doesnt have the most potential its just a 100% control class, which means it forces the enemy constantly into defense. The thief is usually always in control of the fight. His class skills allow that. Once you know that and play the waiting game thieves become alot easier. Thats the reason why engineers are the best class against thieves, you cant force all cooldowns and you cant predict everything a engi does which results in losing the control over the fight. Overall its bad class design, for the same reasons why frost mages in WoW are badly designed. Classes in mmorpgs that are build around completly controling the fight will never be balanced. That GW2 has two of them, thief and mesmer, doesnt make the situation easier.

Edit:
Deleted a big rant about how thieves are actually easy to play, would have only started a flamewar.

Ok sorry for that and I guess I overreacted a bit. So back on topic. They dont get what the thief needs, well no sorry they dont see what ANY class needs. Its really frustraiting to see such a nice system go down the gutter. I dont say that lightharded because I usually stay calm and watch what happens. Imo the thief needs, first and foremost, a bit of his play style removed, remove some of the stealth and dodge spam but make him a bit more out in the open fighterish (is that even a word?). That would make him alot easier to balance and if a thief could actually take a bit of beating traps and stuff might be actually worth taking (after fixing them too of course). I guess I watch the necro class changes cause its the last class I play that wasnt in a preview already and if they kitten him up too I just take a loooooooooooooong brake. I mean what does A-net care I never bought a single gem anyway.

LOL COntroll Class? we have about 2 decent CC’s:
-Baselisk Venom: Whic is a terrible elite
-Sleigth of Hand/steal: This is a GM trait so half of our traits for this CC.

Engi can be knocking you all over the place if your stunbreak is on CD (and im talking 3 to 4 consecutive cc’s) Same for warrior.
Ok thief can control a fight if he can get a good burst off, but if anything about that initial burst combo fails (which is easy to do, dodge/block/blind/invul/cc) he is better off leaving the fight since he wont have the resources for another burst combo before the damage of the enmyplayer will have driven him low enough to loose control of the fight.

Prince.7198:

LOL COntroll Class? we have about 2 decent CC’s:

Yeah thief is pretty poor in cc. We have blinds, short duration dazes, and basilisk venom. That’s it. Shortbow has absolutely nothing but its stealth attack – and that is a huge investment.

Every class aims to control the fight with proper use of their skills – that’s not exclusive to thieves.

There is a reason why we don’t see medic thieves. And this is a big part of the reason why.

Chicago Jack.5647:

Prince.7198:

LOL COntroll Class? we have about 2 decent CC’s:

Yeah thief is pretty poor in cc. We have blinds, short duration dazes, and basilisk venom. That’s it. Shortbow has absolutely nothing but its stealth attack – and that is a huge investment.

Every class aims to control the fight with proper use of their skills – that’s not exclusive to thieves.

There is a reason why we don’t see medic thieves. And this is a big part of the reason why.

Are we playing the same class?

Yea, we don’t have a ton of knock backs, but we have a lot of stuns. Using the typical S/D meta build, I can Basilisk, then steal, then CnD into Tactical Strike. If I’m fighting a Guard or Necro, then there’s the additional stolen skill to use as CC afterward.

All cooldowns for this are relatively low and consider also that Steal is a daze that goes through stability, which makes it superior to engis when it comes to stomping/rezzing. I mean, how many other classes can kick a stability rez while stomping or rez while kicking a stability stomp at the same time?

And of course, Scorpion Wire with stealth is one of the ultimate cheese CCs for skyham. =P

Dahkeus.8243:

Are we playing the same class?

Yea, we don’t have a ton of knock backs, but we have a lot of stuns. Using the typical S/D meta build, I can Basilisk, then steal, then CnD into Tactical Strike. If I’m fighting a Guard or Necro, then there’s the additional stolen skill to use as CC afterward.

And you have to put in a significant amount of work to get that type of a CC chain off. Many of the more advanced combos on the thief involves steal item skills (which requires the class in the first place) and it requires better cooldown management, instead of just initiative management, than the more common combos.

In your example, you have to blow your bassi venom cooldown, your infiltrator signet (because you don’t want to overlap stuns) of which serves as your only stunbreak. Then you need to cnd the target, which can be dodged blowing your bassi venom (since seeing bassi venom on the bar of a thief is a huge tell). Then you have to reposition yourself behind your target, during which time a person with good reaction time could activate their stunbreak and screw the combo over. Then you need to flanking strike into steal cooldown + larcenous. Of course if you establish good positioning before all of this, this combo becomes easier but that requires good positioning to do. Bottom line, you need to work for that type of CC and because of this, you don’t see this type of thing very often.

Scorpion wire requires you to sacrifice a utility and requires some form of setup ether by bassi venom or shortbow sneak attack to pull off smoothly. Blame skyham and its dumb mechanics, not scorpwire. You won’t see any thief seriously run scorp wire on any other map.

Whereas many other classes have way more reliable disables that are rewarded at the click of a button. Which is completely fine as we have other strengths to our class that is more readily available. Notably in your example our how our traited steal works.

But to say that our class solely relies on 100% control over their opponent and to assume any other class doesn’t is just not true. Everyone tries to do this in a fight.

You’re deflecting the argument…

You didn’t say “thief is pretty poor in easy/brainless cc”, you said it’s “pretty poor in cc”.

If playing a build that is faceroll is more important than playing a class that has the tools to succeed, then feel free to go play warrior or something, but Thief has plenty of CC, even if it’s not spoon fed to you.

As for my example, yes I blew basi (45 second cooldown), but I didn’t blow inf signet. Inf strike will get you to your target without overlapping stuns. Even if I did, it’s not my only stunbreak since I also have Shadowstep. Oh, and if that’s on cooldown, you can also use steal to stun an enemy while you are stunned.

My example was a stun chain, but you don’t have to chain all stuns perfectly to be in control of a fight. In most cases, you’re better off using the right CC at the right time instead of just blowing them all at once anyways. Steal -> CnD -> TS is a great opener, which allows you to pop basi venom later. You can also CnD -> TS later on during the fight as needed.

P.s. if you want a reliable stun at the “click of a button”, it doesn’t get much better than steal. It’s one of the few CCs that you can use without having to even think about whether the enemy has stability or not.

Dahkeus.8243:

You’re deflecting the argument…

You didn’t say “thief is pretty poor in easy/brainless cc”, you said it’s “pretty poor in cc”.

I’m not deflecting anything, but maybe it’s just a miscommunication. I’m saying the thief doesn’t have the most reliable disables in the game. Their traited steal for a 1 second daze is the most reliable thing they have – and its very good.

Dahkeus.8243:

As for my example, yes I blew basi (45 second cooldown), but I didn’t blow inf signet. Inf strike will get you to your target without overlapping stuns. Even if I did, it’s not my only stunbreak since I also have Shadowstep. Oh, and if that’s on cooldown, you can also use steal to stun an enemy while you are stunned.

It still doesn’t change the fact that inf strike has a tell to read and seeing bassi venom should send red alerts to anyone fighting the thief. If you use your steal defensively, then you are not using it offensively. If you bring shadowstep, then you ether are dropping shadow refuge or signet of agility, which isn’t really recommended because shadow refuge is way better for the team, and agility signet formulates a better defensive structure. You CAN play shadow refuge, shadowstep, infiltrator signet, but I think you’re going to be gimping yourself by doing so.

Dahkeus.8243:

In most cases, you’re better off using the right CC at the right time instead of just blowing them all at once anyways.

Exactly, which is why I don’t understand why you brought it up in the first place. Something like that requires a significant investment on the theif’s part. And why I would readily turn to many other classes for more reliable disables.

Dahkeus.8243:

Steal -> CnD -> TS is a great opener, which allows you to pop basi venom later. You can also CnD -> TS later on during the fight as needed.

Yes. And this is the typical way to enter a point – of which the opposing team should be expecting you to show up. And if they are doing their job correctly, they should have eyes on you as much as possible – and they especially shouldn’t tunnel vision when they’re trying to over commit to a point.

Dahkeus.8243:

P.s. if you want a reliable stun at the “click of a button”, it doesn’t get much better than steal. It’s one of the few CCs that you can use without having to even think about whether the enemy has stability or not.

Which is one of our strengths. Our traited steal is very good.

Dahkeus.8243:

Chicago Jack.5647:

Prince.7198:

LOL COntroll Class? we have about 2 decent CC’s:

Yeah thief is pretty poor in cc. We have blinds, short duration dazes, and basilisk venom. That’s it. Shortbow has absolutely nothing but its stealth attack – and that is a huge investment.

Every class aims to control the fight with proper use of their skills – that’s not exclusive to thieves.

There is a reason why we don’t see medic thieves. And this is a big part of the reason why.

And of course, Scorpion Wire with stealth is one of the ultimate cheese CCs for skyham. =P

Lol, scorpio wire only works when you are already in combat with your target, otherwise the skill fails. So when i know a thief is fighting me on side points in skyhammer, and i see him leaving the fight, time to put stability, or even hide behind any summon/pet. + skyhammer is a fail of a pvp map/ why you think its not in tournys

Jack, you seem to think a lot of this stuff is harder than I do…not sure how to respond to that part of your argument.

Instead of doing a long quote by quote, I’ll just hit on the major points here:

- Yes, I run Shadowstep, Shadow’s Refuge, and Inf Signet. I know Sig of Agi is popular too, but running Shadowstep instead is hardly a hinderance. They both have their own strengths and weaknesses. Look around and I’ll promise you that you’ll find plenty of other high end thieves that run this as well.

- The reason I gave the example of the front-loaded stun chain was 1) because it exemplified the potential and 2) because sometimes locking down a target with that chain is beneficial. Personally, I use this chain when I come to assist a teammate in a fight. This lock down allows the teammate to either recover from damage taken or go fully offensive and down the enemy.

- Yes, you do have to be behind your target to use TS. It’s not a terribly hard thing to do and if you miss/get blinded/blocked, etc. you can just hit the skill again. A blind will stop an engi’s air blast, a ranger’s point blank shot, a guardian’s shield of absorbtion, etc., but when it blinds a thief, you just press the button again until it lands. Oh, and you can do this again as soon as you drop revealed. =P

- Yes, good players can use awareness to counter or predict your moves, but this is true of all builds/specs. See that giant powder keg sitting on the point? Might wanna move! Do you see a jagged white line between you and that engi? Might wanna dodge! Has that Axe/Shield & Longbow war been using his longbow war been using his longbow for about 5 seconds? Better watch for that swap and shield bash!

I could go on…but the point is that there are a lot of classes that have CC which can be countered by smart play. Yes, there are a few CCs that have no tell (Air Blast, Point Blank Shot, Shield of Absorbtion, etc.), but they all have cooldowns and are susceptible to blinds. Not only do thieves have have one as well, but ours goes through stability.

The grass may seem greener on the other side…but take a step back from your own biases and you’ll see what the neighborhood really looks like.

Guys listen, the real reason for this thread is op is scared theif wont be the best pvp class, anymore. It’s ok bro, rangers welcome you in the low tier of balance

Like this will kill the class….

DrOrange.9230:

Guys listen, the real reason for this thread is op is scared theif wont be the best pvp class, anymore. It’s ok bro, rangers welcome you in the low tier of balance

Dude, I’m a Ranger…and Thief has not been anywhere near the best PvP class. Because remember, PvP is based around bunkering and holding points. Stealth cannot hold points, and thieves cannot bunker much at all without stealth. They haven’t been close to the top in a long time, compared to Rangers (who bunker incredibly well), which is why we got all the “across the board” nerfs constantly, like the nerf to pets.

RyuDragnier.9476:

DrOrange.9230:

Guys listen, the real reason for this thread is op is scared theif wont be the best pvp class, anymore. It’s ok bro, rangers welcome you in the low tier of balance

Dude, I’m a Ranger…

Been waiting for that.