Guild Wars 2

Some background before I start. I’ve played a D/D Elementalist, starting in headstart, for about 75 percent of my time in GW2. I currently play wvw with a full berserker elementalist, 25/20/0/15/10. No cleansing water, no cantrips besides flash, 13k Hp. I’ve also played a thief in tPvP and WvW at max. Don’t come here to say stuff like “loleasyelecleansealltimemistformfree”

I’m a little concerned with how people have been portraying the thief’s current situation in WvW after the recent update reveal (lolreveal). I want to address a common misconception, being that Thieves have defense outside of stealth. This is just flatout untrue, but understandable because the currently popular WvW builds don’t invest heavily in other forms of defense.

People imagine that the thief just does alot of damage, and has kittenty survivability to compensate. NO. NO. NO. You think this because this is the way most thieves build. Thieves don’t have huge power ratios. Just slightly better trait scaling than most, and the initiative to burst with it. Fire grab against burning has a better ratio than backstab from the back, but you don’t see people talking about ele burst because most eles don’t max it out at the cost of all else. You can give up a bit of that overkill damage for survivability too.

Eles have less armor, the same hp, some higher ratios, and still get called one of the tankiest, least damaging professions just because they play that way. Theres no reason you can’t invest a little to do the same. And you won’t be investing nearly the same amount that they have to.

The nature of your class comes almost entirely down to how you build and play it.
The nature of your class comes almost entirely down to how you build and play it.
The nature of your class comes almost entirely down to how you build and play it.

To figure out how the thief can become something new and different from the usual all-in stealth dependant thief, lets compare to the other playstyle that is inherently squishy and uses active defenses without relying on stealth, playing effectively and widely acceptably in such a way. Keep in mind that you’ll still be doing more damage than them throughout this whole comparison, as they have to switch out of damage to actually get the heals they invest in, and that even thief’s survivablility swap, S/D, has the 1337DEEPZ by comparison.

-D/D Ele takes 30 points of non-damage in water. Thief traits right now usually don’t take much of any. Take 15 in acrobatics and you can bring three in a row dodges and vigor on heal. Combine this with Withdraw, which is probably the better heal anyway if you aren’t going to rely on stealth, and you pick up eight seconds of vigor whenever you use your 15 second healing spell that evades and breaks all mobility impairing effects.

-D/d Ele brings three stunbreaks/single condition removals. One is a tele, one is three second invulnerability, and one the last is long duration stability. Can’t really compare to Armor of Earth, but we can steal that boon anyway. Regarding the other two, Shadowstep is 300 range longer than lightning flash for 5 seconds more cooldown and removes 3 conditions to LF’s one. With no trait support demanded.

-D/d Ele brings Mist Form. Signet of Agility grants more crit chance passively, which Mist form does not. It provides three dodges for free given 15 in acrobatics, which beats out mist form’s invuln duration and even allows you to dps in between if you can bother to read animations well and use your dodges intelligently. 45 second advantage over Mist Form cooldown. Of course, it doesn’t stomp as well, but that’s what the third skill slot is for. Shadow refuge lets you stomp almost as securely, also includes a rezzing function, and beats Mist form by 15 seconds on cooldown.

-D/d Ele has 2 condition removals built into their weapon set. The Cleansing Wave skill, and swapping with elemental attunement and cleansing water (which combined eats up 40 trait points) You have one, and it breaks stun. A stunbreaking weapon skill. Nobody else has this. Use it like you own it. Because you do. “butwhaaa we have to take S/D to match up” Suck it up. You get another swap option. They have none.

-D/d Ele has longer cooldowns than you. For basically everything. Multiply the intiative cost by two, and you can steadily maintain initiative casting between autos using that number as a mental cooldown. You then have the option to panic spam, which nobody else does.

So, give up 15 points, a heal, two utility slots, and one out of two weapon sets. Even before stealth and your other weapon skills, you are now as survivable as any D/D ele, which should be MORE than enough. Take stealth on the other set, take more damage on the other set, take stealth or more survivability/damage in your last slot, take any of your great elite spells. Spend those 55 other trait points. Buy DAMAGE with those other options you have that they don’t.

Now laugh as the closest roaming competition has to compete with 30 trait points left to spend, no weapon set options, no utility options besides cantrips, and no decent elite. And wonder why you ever thought stealth was mandatory or that thief was weak somehow (lol).

So like… where is the damage going to come from then? Auto attacks?
Cool, many dodges, and hardly an ability to keep close to your opponent. I don’t know if you’re trying to make the thief look good but currently, it takes a lot of skill to get things done. Currently it’s about having the control of the battle with stealth giving you the edge. Need to be very aware of surroundings and stuff of the like.
I, personally, like it as it is, I don’t care too much about depending so much on stealth but a stealthless thief is not quite….viable. The problem currently is the lack of support, lack of damage w/o beserkers and-or stealth attacks.
This solves none of both.
There are other problems too but don’t seem to be the focus of the topic.

wtb ability to weaponswap properly, protection (non stolen) and a large selection of heals please!

And yeah stealth isn’t the thieves only defense, we have around 3: stealth, evasion, blinds.

Stealth has the downsides everyone knows about (not actually reducing damage), evasion isn’t that much different to others, sure we can get a 15 endurance refund on rolls and some utility evasions but little to back up our defenses for those times where we can’t evade (and don’t get me started on weapon evades, only 2 of them are really viable for evasion)

Then we have blinds, handy if we get enough of them going but very sporadic as to whether they work.

Of course if you can get all 3 to work in a build then you can survive pretty well, its just to get all 3 to work in a decent fashion it means a lot of sacrifice and we’ll still be squishier than other people if we miss a step. If you don’t get at least 2 of them going well your highly vulnerable and even that your generally going to only be able to trait 1 of them and hope the base levels of the other is enough.

What your suggesting really is a full evade build which would be like a thief suggesting you only go lightning spec D/D so you can spec for more damage because you complain you do less, sure you could probably survive some using just the stuff you get with that but your not going to do just that because otherwise your overall going to be much worse off.

I mean you could compare it to an elementalist but really… how many different ways to defend themselves (reliably) do the elementalists get… I count more than thieves get.

Stealth is as big a part of thief defense as evades is, you can’t rely on just one or the other so in that way it is mandatory, you can minimize the need for the other but at some point your going to need what it brings else your going to die.

OP: that is the longest troll post I have ever seen. Well done.

Linnael.1069:

-D/d Ele has longer cooldowns than you. For basically everything. Multiply the intiative cost by two

Lol… just… lol…

nice to here a new thief players opinion. but gotta say you are way off. i run 0 0 30 30 10 on my bleed thief with 22k hp. he is still squishy as *#@! . thats running power vitality condition armor so even regular attacks should be doing dmg right? wrong. thieves have actually a pretty low base dmg amount….however with its 30 30 0 0 10 it does go thru the roof making defense twice as fragile. hence why anet said they wanna increase thiefs base damage so they can do dmg without having to invest in only attack traits (straight out of the devs mouth on camera). So that fact is undeniable :P s/d , when built/traited right, is a very good dueling set and sure you can get out of situations but it also takes a good while to down somebody with that unless going full zerk which means death in larger fights. Have you see any videos on youtube? if you have you might notice that 99.9999999999999999999999999 % of them are all trolling for upscales or doing 1 v 1 s and 1 v 2s maybe a very rare 1 v 3 scenario. yet ive seen dozens of other videos of guardians and necros / mesmers in fights that are much larger. this isnt some conspiracy ….its due to the fact that thieves rely on stealth and in stealth u cant be near to many people as you will catch incidental aoes and stuns and fears and dmg etc. go find a video with somebody running 0 0 30 30 10 or osmething close….see how long it takes them to kill….sneak attack does 800 dmg. yes….the powerful stealth attack does 800 dmg….same with backstab…make 1k or 1100 on that tho. but still . just goes to show you how 30 points not in power/crit is devastating to thief. every good build runs atleast 20 in crit and atleast 20 in shadow arts.

Travlane.5948:

nice to here a new thief players opinion. but gotta say you are way off. i run 0 0 30 30 10 on my bleed thief with 22k hp. he is still squishy as *#@! . thats running power vitality condition armor so even regular attacks should be doing dmg right? wrong. thieves have actually a pretty low base dmg amount….however with its 30 30 0 0 10 it does go thru the roof making defense twice as fragile. hence why anet said they wanna increase thiefs base damage so they can do dmg without having to invest in only attack traits (straight out of the devs mouth on camera). So that fact is undeniable :P s/d , when built/traited right, is a very good dueling set and sure you can get out of situations but it also takes a good while to down somebody with that unless going full zerk which means death in larger fights. Have you see any videos on youtube? if you have you might notice that 99.9999999999999999999999999 % of them are all trolling for upscales or doing 1 v 1 s and 1 v 2s maybe a very rare 1 v 3 scenario. yet ive seen dozens of other videos of guardians and necros / mesmers in fights that are much larger. this isnt some conspiracy ….its due to the fact that thieves rely on stealth and in stealth u cant be near to many people as you will catch incidental aoes and stuns and fears and dmg etc. go find a video with somebody running 0 0 30 30 10 or osmething close….see how long it takes them to kill….sneak attack does 800 dmg. yes….the powerful stealth attack does 800 dmg….same with backstab…make 1k or 1100 on that tho. but still . just goes to show you how 30 points not in power/crit is devastating to thief. every good build runs atleast 20 in crit and atleast 20 in shadow arts.

You forgot about your 1v20 trolling (You know I had to say it…..right?)

There is a lot wrong in the OP suggestions:
- Water with traits allows for health regeneration. Our equivalent is tied into stealth.
- You cannot steal non-boons with the sword, e.g. Armor of Earth (lolrly).
- Agility is much harder to use effectively due to the inherited constant endurance.
- Stealth does not give stability or invulnerability, you can’t just stomp with it.
- Shadow Return eats into initiative. Better condition remove is tied into stealth.
- Longer cooldowns? Ele have 20 skills on the weapon alone. Oh please…
Some more:
- Cleric thief is an amazing bunker and more sturdy than Ele, but requires stealth for health.
- PVT thief is a decent bunker but requires stealth for health.
- We have stealth regeneration boon, stealth regeneration ticks and initiative to health.
Everything is tied into stealth. In sPVP, we lose capture points because of it ;-)

To address some ‘standard thieves’:
- WE DONT NEED INVESTMENT IN CRIT/CRIT DAMAGE TO DO DECENT DAMAGE.

Let me get right on a balanced thief build so I can be completely useless, yeah no thanks we aren’t D/D Ele’s it just doesn’t work like that. Glass is the only viable option for thief and yes we have TERRIBLE survivability outside stealth other than the obvious running away. If we can keep points neutral in stealth for a few seconds it would be a different story.

edit; nvm this is about WvW.. no idea how I skimmed over that, fail coffee is fail!

Deathspike.1870:

There is a lot wrong in the OP suggestions:
- Water with traits allows for health regeneration. Our equivalent is tied into stealth.
- You cannot steal non-boons with the sword, e.g. Armor of Earth (lolrly).
- Agility is much harder to use effectively due to the inherited constant endurance.
- Stealth does not give stability or invulnerability, you can’t just stomp with it.
- Shadow Return eats into initiative. Better condition remove is tied into stealth.
- Longer cooldowns? Ele have 20 skills on the weapon alone. Oh please…
Some more:
- Cleric thief is an amazing bunker and more sturdy than Ele, but requires stealth for health.
- PVT thief is a decent bunker but requires stealth for health.
- We have stealth regeneration boon, stealth regeneration ticks and initiative to health.
Everything is tied into stealth. In sPVP, we lose capture points because of it ;-)

To address some ‘standard thieves’:
- WE DONT NEED INVESTMENT IN CRIT/CRIT DAMAGE TO DO DECENT DAMAGE.

Thanks for the coffee all over my monitor! If you think a bunker with no walls is decent… I’m sorry.

I stopped reading when you compared mist form to signet of agility.

Last I checked signet of agility does not allow you to stomp someone while taking no damage.

Are you sure you play gw2?

Linnael.1069:

Eles have less armor, the same hp, some higher ratios, and still get called one of the tankiest, least damaging professions just because they play that way. Theres no reason you can’t invest a little to do the same. And you won’t be investing nearly the same amount that they have to.

Okay that’s cool, now how does the thief get good uptime on Protection and Regeneration?

Look you know what the real issue is? Thief is OP in WvW. Not because thief is OP but WvW caters to most thief builds. It is a tricky place where mobility and stealth happen to be kings with lots of critters to stealth off of and lots of places to run to. That’s it. Right now thief vs a smart zerg that thief is likely going to go down. But in a 1v1 fight due to stealth and mobility most player feel overwhelmed. And honestly it is a bit much. Not so much the DPS back stab is relatively easy to dodge, S/D has nothing good from stealth save a stun, PW does lol damage after you self stun and your target walks away.

So whats the problem? Anet bundled the highest mobility and the most stealth into one class than can have strong evasion also. It creates too many situations where not only can you not run away but you cant keep the thief engaged in the fight. No one is going to admit this because once you go into PvE thief is garbage. People will boast how good thief is in PvE and it’s all BS. Almost all other classes just do the jobs betters. From DPS to support it better on other classes.

I don’t know what the solution is or if there is even one. Atm thief is OP in WvW, UP in PvE, and not all that useful in Tpvp outside of DP.

Lets cut the bullkitten not exaggerate and call it like it is.

The other thing is CC is not very sexy vs a thief. Main is is shadowstep being a double stunbreaker, plus mobility, and condition remove skill. If you compare it to other utilities like it its over the top. Now mind you without it the CC heavy warrior, engineer, and guardian builds would eat most thieves. And honestly they do except if the thief chooses to run since CC usually ruins mobility on other classes.

Overall all the QQ in the world will just lead to nerfs likely in places that it wont hurt popular builds but lesser ones. There does need to be a change to WvW because thief really is too good there but I fear any change will be overkill and kill the class and most viable builds. Its an insane situation.

I often ask myself why give thief so much mobility and why not let stealth mitigate DPS better.

Most people will say this is QQ post but i find thieves Ok to fight. Reality is PP and SP actually suck vs anybody with decent sense. DP is insanely OP vs most builds but has very little burst if the other player is playing right. DD has burst but is predictable. S/D is ok but really requires you to get that third hit off of sword auto attack for any sort of decent DPS. Shortbow sucks now and was never that good in the first place. P/D lacks multiple conditions and mobility.

I think QQ is pointless there are short comings all around. I think let thief be for a while. Boost other classes minor CC making it harder for thieves to just up and run. Don’t nerf what we have now just allow other classes easier access to skills that can interrupt the stealth chain or gap close. Its about the opportunity to shut the thief down not just one skill now your shut down.

That’s my honest post flame away.

TL;DR

Thief is OP in WvW but so UP everywhere else that nerfing it makes no sense. Boost other classes capability to deal with thieves mobility and stealth and allow thief meta to stay as is for the time being. If they do nerf then buff other things in the right way to compensate.

Also if you are going to comment (ie attempt to start a war) read the whole thing please. Thank you.

thief isnt op. i mean if wvw = 1 v 1 then sure ill agree. but since 1 v 1 does nothin other than tickle/boost ego it shouldnt matter. just my 2 cents.

ps. anyone tell me what TL;DR means? ive seen it a hundred times but never saw the acronym broken down.

Travlane.5948:

ps. anyone tell me what TL;DR means? ive seen it a hundred times but never saw the acronym broken down.

“Too long; didn’t read.” It’s denotes that a summary follows of a long post. It can also mean exactly what is says if it is a response to a posters wall of text.

TL;DR means Too long; Didn’t read.

I player a 0/30/10/15/15 pistol/pistol Thief build, which I enjoy very much, but I can still see why players feel the need to make backstab builds. Overall, the damage output of the Thief is less constant, because it’s much harder for the Thief to stay on a target, as the Thief is very squishy. And unlike the Elementalist, the Thief also has next to zero boon support, which makes all the difference. So in order to compete, the Thief needs good burst damage, to make those short bursts of attacks more valuable. But unfortunately, the damage just isn’t there for most weapon sets. Add to that, that stealth builds are also easier to survive with, as being invisible is a greater advantage, then simply being evasive. You can’t catch someone you can’t see. These two reasons; higher damage, paired with greater survivability, makes the backstab builds superior to other builds.

But I’m fairly sure that most Thief players would love more viable builds…just like any other profession in the game would. Well, maybe except for Mesmer.

First of all, the biggest point of the OP was that you DON’T need to be stacking all tank at the cost of damage. 15 points and two utilities is significantly less investment than most classes require to reach the same level of defensive ability. This is not some sort of build for you to follow. Its a list of possible defensive alternatives and how they compare to those on other classes. You should obviously take as much damage as you can handle. If you can handle going all glass and not die the moment your stealth fails you, then you shouldn’t be worrying about this at all. This is for the people who are saying “we’re still all squish all time” when they aren’t good enough to stay alive when revealed.

Deathspike.1870:

There is a lot wrong in the OP suggestions:
- Water with traits allows for health regeneration. Our equivalent is tied into stealth.
- You cannot steal non-boons with the sword, e.g. Armor of Earth (lolrly).
- Agility is much harder to use effectively due to the inherited constant endurance.
- Stealth does not give stability or invulnerability, you can’t just stomp with it.
- Shadow Return eats into initiative. Better condition remove is tied into stealth.
- Longer cooldowns? Ele have 20 skills on the weapon alone. Oh please…
Some more:
- Cleric thief is an amazing bunker and more sturdy than Ele, but requires stealth for health.
- PVT thief is a decent bunker but requires stealth for health.
- We have stealth regeneration boon, stealth regeneration ticks and initiative to health.
Everything is tied into stealth. In sPVP, we lose capture points because of it ;-)

To address some ‘standard thieves’:
- WE DONT NEED INVESTMENT IN CRIT/CRIT DAMAGE TO DO DECENT DAMAGE.

Health regeneration through initiative costs and the signet are things I agree with. You make good points bringing them up, and though they probably sacrifice more damage than a build skimpier on sustain, that’s a trade that can be made.

Stealth healing and condition removal are vastly overrated. You can cleanse a few conditions by blowing 4-9 initiative or long cooldown stealthing utilities? Good luck keeping up with actual conditions. You bring up the point yourself that our stealth bunkering builds lose capture points. This isn’t saying that stealth is bad. It just doesn’t outclass everything else we can do the way some people think it does.

Also, please look into the ele skill comparisons you criticize. Armor of Earth (lolrly) isn’t an effect. It just applies two boons, that can be stolen. Mist Form stomps more safely yes, which I also acknowledged right there, but gives you no control over the invulnerability. SoA is harder to use (though dodging should be a basic skill) as a fight tool, but gives you more options and better control. Not to mention the passive effect, which is a solid 7 to 9 percent crit chance. Eles have 20 weapon skills? How does that relate to their cooldowns, and the fact that they have a kill-potential burst up every 45 seconds compared to our 15 second initiative bar regen times?

Agree with the new suggestions you put up, and especially the last bit. Too many thieves think that they’re somehow doing “no damage” if their three initiative heartseekers aren’t hitting for 5k plus.

TL;DR? If can’t keep your glass build alive outside of stealth, look into these options. If you can, that’s great and this isn’t for you. Get out of the mindset that you do no damage if you aren’t critting 6k heartseekers. 1.5k an auto is more than enough damage to kill people even on S/D, and you can invest the overkill other places.

thief class in dis game doesn’t have a combat/duelist option
if that’s what you wanted to play, there are wars…

Though I agree with OP he probably didn’t notice that all pur survivability comes from stealth. What’s our best condition removal? Stealth. What’s our best form of HP regen? Stealth. What’s our best way of regain initiative? Stealth. How can we deal more damage? Stealth.

TheGuy.3568:

TL;DR

Thief is OP in WvW but so UP everywhere else that nerfing it makes no sense. Boost other classes capability to deal with thieves mobility and stealth and allow thief meta to stay as is for the time being. If they do nerf then buff other things in the right way to compensate.

Also if you are going to comment (ie attempt to start a war) read the whole thing please. Thank you.

I read all of your post, but won’t quote everything because it will lose readability then.

You really think thief is OP in WvWvW ?
Then you should define your sight of WvWvW – what you mean ?
Zergs running against each other ?
Or 1v1 .

1v1 is no WvWvW in my eyes, and to be honest, a thief will lose nearly any 1v1 against any other profession if the players are on the same skilllevel and specced for dueling.

Problem is, that many many people just run around in full zerker or some zerker, and these builds will get nuked by a thief.

But thats about it, as soon as a professions does specc + gear for 1v1 against thief, thief has an uphill battle.

And about mobility, it is, aside of stealth, the profession defining “ability” .
And there are professions like Ele / NG / Ranger and even warrior who have nearly ( if not better ) mobility, IF they want to have it.

Thief has to invest in mobility too !!!
We do not get anything for free !

I really don’t understand why you always try to forget about that, we had a discussion about thief condi removal vs warrior condi removal if you remember.
It was the same, thief OP everything “passive” for free and so on … it’s just not the case !

What do you mean by thief meta btw?
You mean playing GC D/D spec and waiting for the right moment to strike, and otherwise sitting there and spamming SB in the groupsfights?

Or do you mean the new S/D Fotm, which doesn’t have a real spot either ?

I also don’t see why you think other classes need more abilities to deal with a thief, what abilities to you need.
An i-win-button ?

Seriously , you stated you were a thief player, you should go and play some tourneys, or 1v1 as a thief, this will
hopefully adjust your sight of the current state….

Frenk.5917:

What’s our best condition removal? Stealth. What’s our best form of HP regen? Stealth. What’s our best way of regain initiative? Stealth. How can we deal more damage? Stealth.

’nuff said

lvis.3824:

TheGuy.3568:

TL;DR

Thief is OP in WvW but so UP everywhere else that nerfing it makes no sense. Boost other classes capability to deal with thieves mobility and stealth and allow thief meta to stay as is for the time being. If they do nerf then buff other things in the right way to compensate.

Also if you are going to comment (ie attempt to start a war) read the whole thing please. Thank you.

I read all of your post, but won’t quote everything because it will lose readability then.

You really think thief is OP in WvWvW ?
Then you should define your sight of WvWvW – what you mean ?
Zergs running against each other ?
Or 1v1 .

1v1 is no WvWvW in my eyes, and to be honest, a thief will lose nearly any 1v1 against any other profession if the players are on the same skilllevel and specced for dueling.

Problem is, that many many people just run around in full zerker or some zerker, and these builds will get nuked by a thief.

But thats about it, as soon as a professions does specc + gear for 1v1 against thief, thief has an uphill battle.

And about mobility, it is, aside of stealth, the profession defining “ability” .
And there are professions like Ele / NG / Ranger and even warrior who have nearly ( if not better ) mobility, IF they want to have it.

Thief has to invest in mobility too !!!
We do not get anything for free !

I really don’t understand why you always try to forget about that, we had a discussion about thief condi removal vs warrior condi removal if you remember.
It was the same, thief OP everything “passive” for free and so on … it’s just not the case !

What do you mean by thief meta btw?
You mean playing GC D/D spec and waiting for the right moment to strike, and otherwise sitting there and spamming SB in the groupsfights?

Or do you mean the new S/D Fotm, which doesn’t have a real spot either ?

I also don’t see why you think other classes need more abilities to deal with a thief, what abilities to you need.
An i-win-button ?

Seriously , you stated you were a thief player, you should go and play some tourneys, or 1v1 as a thief, this will
hopefully adjust your sight of the current state….

There are 2 things to say. First off I am not going to discuss this with you. Reading your full post tells me you didn’t read my full post. Secondly, misquoting another post not even pertaining to thief balance but condition management for warrior, which you never really read or simply did not understand simply because I refused to discuss it with you is a little ridiculous.

So here what I am going to do. Like said before I do not want a forum war with you. I don’t like discussing thing with people who don’t read. So I am going to ignore future post from you when you quote me. You can quote me, comment, challenge me, etc. I could careless.

Stealth is a class mechanic. To nerf it and make it harder to access would be like having them put a trap that stops Elementalists from switching attunements.

Miserymachine.7512:

Stealth is a class mechanic. To nerf it and make it harder to access would be like having them put a trap that stops Elementalists from switching attunements.

Like the new traps that remove stealth?

Travlane.5948:

i run 0 0 30 30 10 on my bleed thief with 22k hp. he is still squishy as *#@! .

As a bunker thief, lemme tell you something: you’re doing it wrong.

PearlGore.7419:

Miserymachine.7512:

Stealth is a class mechanic. To nerf it and make it harder to access would be like having them put a trap that stops Elementalists from switching attunements.

Like the new traps that remove stealth?

Yes, so where are the ele attunement traps?

Miserymachine.7512:

Stealth is a class mechanic. To nerf it and make it harder to access would be like having them put a trap that stops Elementalists from switching attunements.

No it’s not. It really, really isn’t. Thief has the best access to and rewards from stealth, but they aren’t the only ones that can use it, so it’s not a profession mechanic. Mesmers spring to mind immediately, but did you know Engineers can stealth without assistance too?

The thief’s profession mechanics are initiative and steal.

Softspoken.2410:

Miserymachine.7512:

Stealth is a class mechanic. To nerf it and make it harder to access would be like having them put a trap that stops Elementalists from switching attunements.

No it’s not. It really, really isn’t. Thief has the best access to and rewards from stealth, but they aren’t the only ones that can use it, so it’s not a profession mechanic. Mesmers spring to mind immediately, but did you know Engineers can stealth without assistance too?

The thief’s profession mechanics are initiative and steal.

Note its emphasis here: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/thief/

It’s as close to a profession mechanic as something can get without being completely and utterly exclusive in application. There’s an entire trait line for it, an entire set of #1 skills that benefit from it (an exclusive mechanic to Thieves), a plethora of skills and traits that grant it (far more than any other profession) and it features on the profession’s official page. It’s close enough.

They don’t just have the “best” access and benefits from stealth, which almost implies that there is some sort of contest at all. The integration, access and benefits are LEAGUES beyond any of the professions, not even coming close.

Auesis.7301:

Softspoken.2410:

Miserymachine.7512:

Stealth is a class mechanic. To nerf it and make it harder to access would be like having them put a trap that stops Elementalists from switching attunements.

No it’s not. It really, really isn’t. Thief has the best access to and rewards from stealth, but they aren’t the only ones that can use it, so it’s not a profession mechanic. Mesmers spring to mind immediately, but did you know Engineers can stealth without assistance too?

The thief’s profession mechanics are initiative and steal.

Note its emphasis here: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/thief/

It’s as close to a profession mechanic as something can get without being exclusive. There’s an entire trait line for it, an entire set of skills that benefit from it, a plethora of skills and traits that grant it (far more than any other profession) and it features on the profession’s official page. It’s close enough.

It is very strongly emphasized in the thief’s kit. In fact, I’d say the thief has the best access to and rewards from stealth.

But that doesn’t make it the profession mechanic any more than minions are the necromancer mechanic. Frankly I think thief design needs to get over that, and provide better ways to build thieves at the expense of stealth.

Edit:

They don’t just have the “best” access and benefits from stealth, which almost implies that there is some sort of contest at all. The integration, access and benefits are LEAGUES beyond any of the professions, not even coming close.

Probably! That still doesn’t make it the profession mechanic, or even profession specific, any more than confusion and mesmers.

stealth attacks are a class mechanic, stealth is the only way to access that mechanic, there for stealth is utilized as part of the class mechanic thus its a class mechanic, not exclusive but still a core part of the class just like boons aren’t exclusive to guardians but are still a core mechanic to them.

OP does not understand that even if you would build your thief dodge specced, there is no good reason to leave stealth out. It’s best to bring both.

Dasorine.1964:

stealth attacks are a class mechanic,

Yes.

stealth is the only way to access that mechanic,

Yes.

therefore stealth is utilized as part of the class mechanic

Yes.

thus its a class mechanic,

No.

not exclusive

Kind of a critical point there.

but still a core part of the class

Yes.

just like boons aren’t exclusive to guardians but are still a core mechanic to them.

Core, but still not a class profession mechanic.

I’m not arguing stealth is unimportant to thieves. All I’m saying is, it is not their profession mechanic. So equating it to attunement swapping is fallacious.

Kind of done ‘arguing’ this point.

Edit: As for the actual thread -

OP does not understand that even if you would build your thief dodge specced, there is no good reason to leave stealth out. It’s best to bring both.

This is my concern about the thief right now. Your defensive options are rather limited unless you’re using stealth. You don’t have to be 100% stealth, but I’m not sure a thief can keep up a strong defense without it, no matter what they build.

MissMisery: Stealth is unique to the thief. If you called our stealth by a different name, lets say, invisibily, then you can accurately say that invisibly was a class me mechanic. The fact remains that no other classes besides the thief has traits, attacks, builds, etc, that all require stealth as a prerequisite. Other classes can use stealth, but none are required to use it to activate abilities like we are. That makes stealth a class mechanic for thieves.

TheGuy: I agree with everything you said except the part where you started taking about nerfing thieves. I don’t think thieves can withstand anymore nerfs. I propose we take a look at other classes or pick one class and give them some better ways of dealing with thief mobility. Obviously, not an over night fix. In my opinion, thieves should be where they at in wvw. We are not as useful in Zerg battles as the rest of gw2. Our only function we excel at is roaming and staying mobile and picking off the people we can in the process. There are plenty of classes and builds thieves cannot kill in wvw.

There are some good arguments here started by the OP, but the OP clearly has no clue about thieves or this game if you try to compare signet of agility/dodge rolling to mist form…

Wtf did I just read

TheGuy.3568:

TL;DR

Thief is OP in WvW but…

Honestly, can someone explain to me why a Thief is considered OP in WvW that doesn’t relate to 1v1’s, running away (real helpful), or ninja capping areas from a blind enemy team?

McFribble.2349:

TheGuy.3568:

TL;DR

Thief is OP in WvW but…

Honestly, can someone explain to me why a Thief is considered OP in WvW that doesn’t relate to 1v1’s, running away (real helpful), or ninja capping areas from a blind enemy team?

I should really set up a youtube account. That way I can record just how often I see a 5 man try to kill a thief, unsuccessfully. The only other class I’ve seen stand up to a group like that is the mesmer.

Being able to escape makes the Thief nothing more than a class that can run and hide. That’s not strength.

Deamhan.9538:

McFribble.2349:

TheGuy.3568:

TL;DR

Thief is OP in WvW but…

Honestly, can someone explain to me why a Thief is considered OP in WvW that doesn’t relate to 1v1’s, running away (real helpful), or ninja capping areas from a blind enemy team?

I should really set up a youtube account. That way I can record just how often I see a 5 man try to hunt down and kill a thief, unsuccessfully. The only other class I’ve seen stand up to a group like that is the mesmer.

So Thieves are OP because they are good at running away from groups/zergs without bringing anything to the table while IN one? Sorry, but you and I have two VERY different opinions on what makes something over-powered. Running away isn’t one of them.

Funny, I don’t recall saying that the thief was running away? I suppose ‘hunt down’ is poor wording on my part. I refer to trying to figure out where they are while in stealth as ‘hunting’. This doesn’t imply them running away as I would’ve said ‘track down’ instead of ‘hunt down’. I’ll delete the phrase.

Frenk.5917:

Though I agree with OP he probably didn’t notice that all pur survivability comes from stealth. What’s our best condition removal? Stealth. What’s our best form of HP regen? Stealth. What’s our best way of regain initiative? Stealth. How can we deal more damage? Stealth.

While technically true that is bother much more counter-able and much less reliable with a far heavier investment in both trait points and utility skills than what he put forwards. His build will make you a better player to use it right. Stealth actually has the potential to make you a worse player as you lean on the power of stealth and then die so easily when caught outside of it.

All thief survivability does not come from stealth, stealth is merely on option for additional defense. Most of thief survivability comes from mobility and evasion. Stealth and his build both enhance that in different ways.

Most people don’t take advantage of the survivability options they have. Perfect examples are Infiltrator’s Strike and Shadow Step. I’ve seen precious few thieves that use it, normally when I see a thief with that buff on their bar I’m a bit more afraid of them because they are almost always way better than your typical noob roller stealth thief.

NitroApe.9104:

Frenk.5917:

What’s our best condition removal? Stealth. What’s our best form of HP regen? Stealth. What’s our best way of regain initiative? Stealth. How can we deal more damage? Stealth.

’nuff said

Straight up wrong.
Maybe one out of your three points (the healing) has any merit whatsoever, but I’m just going to talk about condition removal, as my posts are usually pretty long already and I disagree with the statement that the thief has to have health or initiative regeneration and be running a bunker build. My original suggestion was a series of possible additions/modifications to a high damage build that bursts and kills/keaves fast, hence the low investment requirement.

Stealth as a mechanic has 2 methods of activation. Initiative costs (weapon skills or combos that stealth) and cooldown based utilities. I’ll give you the bonus stealth duration for fun in these comparisons, but keep in mind you’ll have to spend the ENTIRE duration of your stealth, to the last second, to get what I’m telling you here. This means no stealth skills, no getting revealed. Also keep in mind that, removing over time, against damage over time, is a pretty terrible idea.

1: Condition removal by stealth vs. by non-stealth utilities. The removal in stealth is one per three seconds, starting at one immediately.

Blinding powder can drop a maximum of two conditions every forty seconds. IF you are willing to let conditions tick on you while not damaging your foe until the second activation 3 seconds later. Signet of Agility clears one, for both you and all your allies, and breaks stun. Ten second lower cooldown than blinding powder. No waiting.

Therefore: Blinding powder is more removal, but at a longer cd. Signet of Agility is better against single stacks that you catch uncovered, provides aoe support, breaks stun, and has much lower cd. Not to mention everything else SoA does that Blinding powder can’t even be compared to.

Shadow Refuge stacks a max of 15 seconds of stealth, traited or not. That’s six conditions removed, sixty second cooldown. You must stay within shadow refuge for four seconds and stay in stealth for the full duration afterwards, to get this effect. If you pop a stealth skill you lose the last tick and this becomes even worse I can’t even begin to get to the problem here. Need an immobilize cleansed? better hope they don’t have a single cover. Need that necro off your back?LOLSTANDTHEREPLEASEMOARMARKS. And really, by the time you hit ten plus seconds to cleanse something, you’re dead from it already, much less 15.

Shadowstep clears three instantly and breaks stun on ten second lower cooldown, with a 1200 range dash thrown in for lulz.

Therefore: Shadow Refuge might be more removal given every condition fulfilled, but Shadowstep matches the removal unless you like it when they tick for 7+ seconds, gives you lower cooldwon and more options, no downtime, no vulnerabilty to AoE, and fight mobility.

2: Condition Removal by Stealth through Initiative

Stealthing when traited buys you time for two ticks with all weapon skills that are initiative efficient. Depending on trait investment, this will cost you 4 to 9 initiative.

Infiltrators Strike/Return costs five ini total. It immobilizes, breaks stun, and takes less than a second to cast. It is also not limited by revealed, the way stealth condition removal is.

Conclusions, TL;DR

You can achieve 1-2 more conditions removed with utilities that stealth than with utilities that don’t. You’ll also have to sit in an aoe for four seconds, and wait 15 seconds while conditions tick for one of them, and also not use a stealth skill to break stealth early at all. Compare that to three instantly on lower cooldown with less limitation, added mobility, and a stunbreak. Lolgoodone.

You can achieve higher conditions removed per initiative by stealthing than through infiltrator’s strike. You’ll still have to wait, will be blowing MORE initative against single conditions, and won’t be able to respond at all if revealed You again, lose mobility, an immobilize, a stunbreak, and instant response options.

None of the non-stealth options shown here are traited in any way. Stealth removal requires a minimum of 15 points invested, and 20 for the weapon skills comparison. You can thus do more damage using non-stealth methods as you won’t have to throw 20 points into a non-damaging line.

If you really think stealth gets you the best condition removal, I feel bad for you.

Healing via initiative and the heal roll are actually both really good. I have also played around with a shamans/clerics mix and match build and I’ll be healing 300+ from skill use. True that might not seem like very much initially, but keep in mind that it’s constant and instead of stealth I am evading alot more damage. It also turns any evasive moves into healing/evasion….which is essentially what stealth is, only I’m not disrupting my damage flow and then attempting to make up for it via stealth burst.

To be more specific in a mix of clerics and shamans gear I heal 100+ points per initiative spent.