Guild Wars 2

I’m trying to gear my thief right now, what is the amount of toughness and vitality a thief needs? I don’t want to be too glassy

Around 15k HP is the sweet spot. For armor I personally Like 2200. Its very easy to hit without sacrificing too much offense and makes a significant difference in received damage.

I can’t say if this is good advice, but:

for my part, I prefer Vitality over toughness. for one thing, vitality does help against direct damage, though not as well, while toughness does nothing against conditions, meaning that vitality covers more forms of damage. secondly, thief’s pretty weak to conditions as is, so more health always felt like a good idea to me.

so I tend to favour vitality over toughness, but realistically, just keep testing until you find what works for you.

Gray.9041:

I can’t say if this is good advice, but:

for my part, I prefer Vitality over toughness. for one thing, vitality does help against direct damage, though not as well, while toughness does nothing against conditions, meaning that vitality covers more forms of damage. secondly, thief’s pretty weak to conditions as is, so more health always felt like a good idea to me.

so I tend to favour vitality over toughness, but realistically, just keep testing until you find what works for you.

Maybe it’d be best to point out that the values I’ve recommended are for D/P weapon set utilizing SA traitline. But I agree, toughness is not effective against conditions. With this weapon set and traitline though, you’re looking at a slightly longer fight, chipping down your opponent at a steady pace, using stealth for condi-cleanses. Imo, the difference between 15k hp and 17k hp isn’t as important as playing properly against condi-heavy classes.

15k HP is quite enough to survive a suprise attack, burst combo in WvW, which is the whole reason I consider it sweet spot. Basically as long as you can survive a well timed burst attack from a single player, with utilities and stun breaks there’s no reason to fail turning the fight around. That little bit of Toughness does wonders to surviving such bursts, effectively increasing your chances of turning the table around.

It depends on weaponset and build type. I found with stealth in a build I could use less toughness and took more vitality. This because you need to survive those condition ticks long enough as you stealth and cleanse.

Out in the open fighters will need a bit more in the way of toughness to take those big hits that they fail to avoid. If you WvW i would keep that in mind before getting gear.

In WvW with loss of guard stacks I expect we will see more people needing to get vitality into their builds.

The sweet spot I aim for is 15k health, 45% crit chance before buffs, traits, or food. I don’t usually add toughness.

I like vit over toughness.

17k hp is what i would consider “healthy”

Agreed with 15k, its what I aim for when making a new set. I usually play dp though, s/d might be more comfortable with a lil bit more hp.

Take a look at this build: http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vZEQNAoaVl0MhSnY5Tw7Jw/EHwEkPNnpN8eEjdoTQA2NA-TlCEAB+qEzn9HI4EAkoaFbpEkJlHG8AAUUVl20HAwRAIAwBwv9tv/G45nf+5nfuf/93f/93SBonSL-w What changes should I make to it?

IchigoHatake.5098:

Take a look at this build: http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vZEQNAoaVl0MhSnY5Tw7Jw/EHwEkPNnpN8eEjdoTQA2NA-TlCEAB+qEzn9HI4EAkoaFbpEkJlHG8AAUUVl20HAwRAIAwBwv9tv/G45nf+5nfuf/93f/93SBonSL-w What changes should I make to it?

Honestly with 1250 toughness and 1350 vitality you should be fine. As others have pointed out, that’s enough for you to normally survive a massive one-shot burst from other classes.

When you pump your toughness and vitality to 1500 or higher (using Soldier’s gear and that sort of thing) you start getting into a different kind of thief, and you’ll probably be disappointed in the damage output if you invest much more than you already have.

In terms of how much power/precision/ferocity you need, we could debate all day. But your toughness and vitality are in a good spot with that build.

If you have success with that build, you can try going more or less full glass with your next build. I run full Assassin’s with signets + Runes of Resistance and bread as my only defensive measures. However I do run sword/dagger which gives me lots of evades as well.

Note: I had a build similar to that one using mainly Cavalier and Valkyrie items, which are cheaper than Berserker’s if you’re buying on the trading post. Just a thought.

What about this? http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZEQNAoaVl0MhSnY5Tw7Jw/EHwEkPNnpN8eEjdoTQA2NA-TVCEAB+qEzn9HI4EAko6PbpEkJlHG8AAaTfAAHBgAAHA/23++bgnf+5nf+5+93f/93fLFgeKtA-w I replaced soldiers armor with berserker. I feel like I had too much armor in the previous build. Which one do you think is better?

It is all up for preference. However, for the sake of maximizing effective HP, it is best to gain vitality until you have 20,640 health, then increase toughness and vitality in equal measure after that.

Until you reach that point, my suggestion would be to go for vitality over toughness. I run PVE mostly, so my ideal spec is: none. I can’t speak for WvW or PVP.

20k hp? lol thieves should not have that much hp unless they are condi. the first build I posted has 1k more hp and 100 more armor. The second build I posted has 7% more crit dmg, and around 5% more crit. Which one is better?

Don’t use sentinel. On thief you want only zerk/valk setup. Toughness is useless compering to loss of dps. Offence and active defence is your defence. You only want to have as much hp to survive initial burst, so as ppl said 15k (14k is risky but i use oil with +100 vit and 10% ferocity from vitality).

I don’t think I lose that much dps, the only reason I use sentinel is because it gives me lots of vitality and some toughness. I feel like having only 2000 toughness isn’t very good.

Honestly both seem okay, just try one out and then tweak it from there. They’re both good bases to make small adjustments to.

“only” 2000 toughness?

My first question would be, are you stuck on the runes? Or can they be changed.

I’m working on a new (finally ascended) setup for when HoT launches. Still keeping the mats saved up for any last minute changes that can totally alter what I need.

My current ‘best’ stats are: 45% crit chance (high fury uptime), 15995 hp, 237% crit dmg, 2211 armor and ‘only’ 2450 power. Trying to push the power a bit more though. Now this does use expensive food to make it all get together. But it could probably be tweaked if that is a problem, losing some crit dmg but gaining power.

I played that soldier/zerk armor mix for years, it has practically the same EHP as full valk armor. Main differences are that with full valk you get better ferocity and a little more health whilst having 15% damage reduction through armor, and with soldier zerk you get 20% damage reduction through armor, slightly better crit chance due to the zerk pieces, and theoretically if you min/max it it’s slightly (2%) better damage due to you getting more out of sharpening stones etc.

This is an interesting post on the subject, although somewhat old and possibly outdated:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/WvW-Thief-looking-for-some-insight/first#post2674725

I swapped to valk due to condi being more of a threat at the current time and I didn’t want to be as reliant on guard stacks for health since they’ll be removed with HoT, but I have a soldier chest/legs to swap in if things just aren’t going my way that day. Honestly if you have at least 15k health and are fast with your cleanses you’ll be fine.

I use vamp runes because it’s a life saver, I realized that with vamp I can pretty much beat any thief i face. The health leeching is also pretty nice. I mean I can hit incredibly high stats: high armor, high power, high crit, high ferocity, 15k vitality, but then you would have to use signets and critical strikes (trickery and deadly arts for d/p is pretty much a must, I feel like i need shadow arts for condi removal) :P so that isn’t really an option.

This new build now has 2 extra valkyrie gear to get me up to 15k hp I lowered my crit to 37%, but it doesn’t matter I can get fury easily, with fury I will have around 60% crit anymore would give a diminishing return. http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZEQNAoaVl0MhSnY5Tw7Jw/EHwEkPNnpN8eEjdoTQA2NA-TlCEABLqCjvKx8Z/BCOBAJq+wWKBZS5hBPAg20HAwRAIAwBwv9tv/G45nf+5nPvf/93f/93SBonSL-w

IchigoHatake.5098:

I use vamp runes because it’s a life saver, I realized that with vamp I can pretty much beat any thief i face. The health leeching is also pretty nice. I mean I can hit incredibly high stats: high armor, high power, high crit, high ferocity, 15k vitality, but then you would have to use signets and critical strikes (trickery and deadly arts for d/p is pretty much a must, I feel like i need shadow arts for condi removal) :P so that isn’t really an option.

This new build now has 2 extra valkyrie gear to get me up to 15k hp I lowered my crit to 37%, but it doesn’t matter I can get fury easily, with fury I will have around 60% crit anymore would give a diminishing return. http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZEQNAoaVl0MhSnY5Tw7Jw/EHwEkPNnpN8eEjdoTQA2NA-TlCEABLqCjvKx8Z/BCOBAJq+wWKBZS5hBPAg20HAwRAIAwBwv9tv/G45nf+5nPvf/93f/93SBonSL-w

Vampirism Bonus 6 is best rune bonus in the game along with Movement speed and scholar bonus

IchigoHatake.5098:

I use vamp runes because it’s a life saver, I realized that with vamp I can pretty much beat any thief i face. The health leeching is also pretty nice. I mean I can hit incredibly high stats: high armor, high power, high crit, high ferocity, 15k vitality, but then you would have to use signets and critical strikes (trickery and deadly arts for d/p is pretty much a must, I feel like i need shadow arts for condi removal) :P so that isn’t really an option.

This new build now has 2 extra valkyrie gear to get me up to 15k hp I lowered my crit to 37%, but it doesn’t matter I can get fury easily, with fury I will have around 60% crit anymore would give a diminishing return. http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZEQNAoaVl0MhSnY5Tw7Jw/EHwEkPNnpN8eEjdoTQA2NA-TlCEABLqCjvKx8Z/BCOBAJq+wWKBZS5hBPAg20HAwRAIAwBwv9tv/G45nf+5nPvf/93f/93SBonSL-w

Well get ready to be stomped by everyone else ’cause come HoT, Anet is removing the crutch for newbs, that is Vampirism mist form.

:*

The deciding factor for me between Vitality vs Toughness is based on which heal I take.

Right now I have Withdraw almost all the time so I lean towards more Vitality.

When I used to take Hide in Shadows, I focused more on Toughness to allow the regen to have better effective heal. Coupled with Shadow Arts, the high toughness allowed me to roam even with 10k health — but that’s a long time ago.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The deciding factor for me between Vitality vs Toughness is based on which heal I take.

Right now I have Withdraw almost all the time so I lean towards more Vitality.

When I used to take Hide in Shadows, I focused more on Toughness to allow the regen to have better effective heal. Coupled with Shadow Arts, the high toughness allowed me to roam even with 10k health — but that’s a long time ago.

To be honest, I’m suprised you don’t go the opposite way around, considering HiS has a higher base heal value and an additional heal over time value, meaning with a higher health pool, you could use more room to make mistakes and heal back to 100%.

With withdraw, lets say if you had 10k hp, you’d heal half of it up. If you have 20k Hp, you’d heal 1/4 up, meaning the lower HP you have the more “effective” withdraw is (although its totally not and its just an illusion :p)

The trick here is to use your heal potential to a maximum and not “waste” your heal by limiting it to your HP. So, if you’ve lost around 3k HP and you lose Withdraw, you “waste” less heal compared to same situation using HiS… Hope that makes some sense at least -_-’’

That being said, since cooldown of Withdraw is just too freaking low compared to HiS, in both scenarios I’d argue it’s the Best-in-Slot heal for thieves anyway.

Well, just my opinion anyways :p

bliss.4305:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The deciding factor for me between Vitality vs Toughness is based on which heal I take.

Right now I have Withdraw almost all the time so I lean towards more Vitality.

When I used to take Hide in Shadows, I focused more on Toughness to allow the regen to have better effective heal. Coupled with Shadow Arts, the high toughness allowed me to roam even with 10k health — but that’s a long time ago.

To be honest, I’m suprised you don’t go the opposite way around, considering HiS has a higher base heal value and an additional heal over time value, meaning with a higher health pool, you could use more room to make mistakes and heal back to 100%.

With withdraw, lets say if you had 10k hp, you’d heal half of it up. If you have 20k Hp, you’d heal 1/4 up, meaning the lower HP you have the more “effective” withdraw is (although its totally not and its just an illusion :p)

I used to think that, but having lower HP using Withdraw makes you susceptible to pressure. The extra health allows Withdraw to get off CD.

If you have 10k health and taking 5k damage, each hit will bring you down to 50% which put you in trouble, where a 5k damage to 20k health only brings you to 25%. Meaning you can take extra hits while Withdraw is in CD.

I recommend HiS if you’re going low HP build because the stealth prevents further damage on you, given that you also spec for SA.

IMO, it’s too risky to go 10k HP without HiS.

The trick here is to use your heal potential to a maximum and not “waste” your heal by limiting it to your HP. So, if you’ve lost around 3k HP and you lose Withdraw, you “waste” less heal compared to same situation using HiS… Hope that makes some sense at least -_-’’

Of course, you don’t want to overheal yourself, but if you build with toughness and stealth, by the time HiS gets off CD, you’ve taken enough damage that you won’t overheal yourself.

That being said, since cooldown of Withdraw is just too freaking low compared to HiS, in both scenarios I’d argue it’s the Best-in-Slot heal for thieves anyway.

I agree. Besides, Thieves should take both Vitality AND Toughness anyway.

But for those who likes to take risk, we have a heal that can complement those choices.

Well, just my opinion anyways :p

Everything is.

Between 11 and 15k depending which mode.

For WvW I use full zerker so I have around 11K. It feel a little incomfortable, but with the Applied Fortitude I reach a little over 14k and it’s just perfect.

For PvE, I don’t want any. I don’t plan on using my thief for Raids so I don’t know.

For PvP, I use marauder and it give me around 17K hp, which is far enough. I would be ok with 15k, but we don’t have any choice between Zerker and Marauder amulet.

Yep I just checked, VAMP RUNES ARE GETTING NERFED. No more Survivability :P just great. Pack runes it is :P

IchigoHatake.5098:

Yep I just checked, VAMP RUNES ARE GETTING NERFED. No more Survivability :P just great. Pack runes it is :P

Just to give it a source:

FYI: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/We-want-Zealot-Amulet-for-HoT/page/3#post5616775

It’s good for the game that Vamp runes are getting changed. Still sucks for us, though.

yeah, vamp used to be a great way to prevent us from dying. Now there is nothing left :P especially in spvp, welp guys it’s time to quit thieves.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

*snip *

I don’t understand that kind of logic… How are you more susceptible to pressure when the heal amount is exactly the same (be it having 20k hp or 10k hp…) You’re under the exact same pressure as the HP that needs to be shaved to get you down is precisely the same.

That being said, low HP and heal synergy is something to consider. Seeing, there are abilities like Heartseeker or traits like Executioner which benefit your opponent on the % of your health, is it better to have a lower health pool so heal pushes you above those tresholds?

The math would probably drive me insane but regardless, I believe the HP sweetspot for thieves will always be sliiiiiightly above a full-burst from other stealthed classes to have at least a form of counter to being ganked (which is around 15-17k depending on your level of toughness – at its current state).

Vitality is superior on a thief in almost every scenario. Toughness is great if a build has excellent condi cleanse and regen. Toughness waters down either damage or burst survival on a thief especially since stealth fixes most of the issues of running with a low toughness.

bliss.4305:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

*snip *

I don’t understand that kind of logic… How are you more susceptible to pressure when the heal amount is exactly the same (be it having 20k hp or 10k hp…) You’re under the exact same pressure as the HP that needs to be shaved to get you down is precisely the same.

Let me put it this way.

With 20K, you can take three 5k hits before you go on critical low HP, while at 10k you can only take one 5k hit, thus every 5k hit puts you on a critical level which means you’re under a constant pressure.

It’s not about how much heal you make, but how much damage you can take before healing.

That being said, low HP and heal synergy is something to consider. Seeing, there are abilities like Heartseeker or traits like Executioner which benefit your opponent on the % of your health, is it better to have a lower health pool so heal pushes you above those tresholds?

Quite the opposite. If you’re taking 5k per hit, each hit will put you on the threshold if you have 10k HP, while with 20k, you can postpone your heal up to two hits. Also, with the bonus damage you’ll receive when you drop to 50%, with 5k left to your HP will surely drop you — while a 10k left on your HP at 50% is still survivable.

The math would probably drive me insane but regardless, I believe the HP sweetspot for thieves will always be sliiiiiightly above a full-burst from other stealthed classes to have at least a form of counter to being ganked (which is around 15-17k depending on your level of toughness – at its current state).

That’s true. 15k with at least 2200 toughness is the sweet spot. It’s hard to go 17k without shaving off some damage potential.

Yeah I think 15k hp with 2200 armor is perfect. Here’s the build with vamp runes removed since they are going to get nerfed anyways, it’ now using pack! http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZEQNAoaVl0MhSnY3Tw8Jw/EHwEkPMnpN8eEjdoTQA2NA-T1CEABLqCjvKxI4EAko6DbpEkJlHG8AAyZ/h20HAwRA4hDBQAgDgf7bf/NwzP/8zP/c/+7v/+7vlCIilWA-w
Honestly I feel like I might need to save my materials and laurels for another class, thieves are getting weaker and weaker, I have all the materials needed to get all the ascended stuff in the build, but I question if it’s really worth it.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZEQNAoaVl0MhSnY3TwwJw+EFVIz+2AyF-TBDEABLquzTKxcSZABPAgEVJYLlgGcIAaSpBCnAg20Hkz+DAcEACAgAMxSsEnYgJOxJWiTsrLxJOxJOxA-e

My build, just a bit more toughness and vitality and critical chance. And a tad less power and ferocity (Comparing to your build IchigoHatake). Still keeping an eye out for fine adjustment and such to the build but it work for me.
Also, no +stat infusions (except AR and MF)

Eh don’t go for toughness… Waste of dmg.

I plan to make this my new stats when hot comes out for s/d.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZEQNAsYVl0MhSnY3TwsJw/EH0ElPM+iyo3XBRgqDgnICA-TBTBABWqCRWKJEVlgHeAAUquSEHCAsUuhn+gFVCS0+DacEAA4EAEAAB4mtZbezAH9oH9oH9odzduzje0jWKgyFaB-e

Rudy.6184:

Eh don’t go for toughness… Waste of dmg.

I agree and many builds do away with toughness for more damage. If you’re really good at dodging, evading, strafing, shadowstepping and stealthing, often time you can go with base toughness.

Although I don’t recommend it because if someone gets a jump on you, your low toughness will not give you enough time to react.

Yuki Aburame.5283:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZEQNAoaVl0MhSnY3TwwJw+EFVIz+2AyF-TBDEABLquzTKxcSZABPAgEVJYLlgGcIAaSpBCnAg20Hkz+DAcEACAgAMxSsEnYgJOxJWiTsrLxJOxJOxA-e

My build, just a bit more toughness and vitality and critical chance. And a tad less power and ferocity (Comparing to your build IchigoHatake). Still keeping an eye out for fine adjustment and such to the build but it work for me.
Also, no +stat infusions (except AR and MF)

Your build has more toughness, vitality, and does more dmg than my build. But the thing is you are using a signet to boost precision so you are not using blinding powder, the stealth from it is very good for survival. Your are using critical strikes, and trickery trait line is a must these days so you are either leaving deadly arts or shadow arts, shadow arts is kind of a must as well otherwise you have only 2 condition removal which is the signet (removes 1 every 30 seconds) and shadowstep (removes 2 every 50 seconds) which is not nearly enough condition removal. If you leave deadly arts, you can’t apply weakness and your skills dont have a chance to recharge (improvisation), so you are leaving out alot survivability out, so I don’t think it’s worth it to have that extra bit of dmg and bit more toughness over useful traits and utilities.

However, if we compare just stats from gear only (no food, no traits, no signets). I have 7% more critical dmg and a tiny bit more crit chance, you have 100 more armor and a tiny bit more vitality, Our power is pretty much the same if you actually use infusions that gives you stats So between our two builds it’s just a personal preference really, each gear setup is pretty good!

Ditching shadow arts since i’m not using that much stealth with this build, also sword 2 does have condi cleans :p

yeah totally a preference thing.

By the way, since Heart of Thorns i switched (in PVE) Traits from DA CS TR to DS SA DD and run staff. Running everything else the same. I take venom share in SA to use with Basilisk Venom to take down break bars and it seems to work good enough (with people around).