Guild Wars 2

Im sry but this was clearly a pve nerf because any moron who doesnt know how to move out of a tiny circle needs to quit this game

i know how much you love ur pve friends so why not just leave it the way it was in pvp like you do with some of your other patches

not to mention its 6 initiative and you cant spam it so whats the problem

just seems like another needless nerf to thief where anet thinks only of pvers

ps revert the revealed nerf to 3 secs that was clearly another wvw nerf im ganna bet money someone at anet mixed them up and since anet’s a hard headed company that would never admit mistake or revert something (COUGH undo the nerf to s/p 15% dmg) we seem to be doomed

i have an idea anet just stealth insert into the next patch and pretend like you forgot it like u do all the time

thanks,
your hated troll cruuk

I’m sorry… but… what?

Good use of BP before the nerf allowed for total immunity of incoming damage. Spoken as a P/P thief by a P/P thief. Proper kiting within it prevented any melee attacks from landing. It only sucked for those who didn’t understand you can move inside of the field.

6 init is pretty spammable with the standard meta trickery build so commonly found.

Makes more sense to have revealed on a 4s timer in sPvP than in WvW. Not sure why you think it should be 4 in WvW. Not saying it should be 4s, just the comment about WvW makes no sense.

PW is fine; 3 spam stun with evade frames and burst damage shouldn’t be one/two-shotting people.

LOL OMG TOTAL IMMUNITY HOW EVER DID WE DIE

u realize it you were able to hit the thief even while standing inside it before right? it was every 3 hits instead of every other hit perfectly fine imo not to mention you can kittenign stand outside the ring and still hit the thief so plz tell me more p/p thief lol

the whole nerf of revealed was because ppl were running d/d in wvw spamming c/d over and over again not to mention pvp is a completely different stealth game where no rules apply of stealthing as much as you want but in pvp if your sitting in stealth over and over your punished for it and so is your team

pw is totally not fine thats why no one kittenign runs it in pvp cause it doesnt do enough dmg

i can totally see why it was nerfd in pve cause of pve mobs being kittening kittened but for you to be kittened and come in here making a fool of your self well that doesnt fly with me

You ran d/p-s/p SA build with soldier amu which obviously doesn’t work so you came here to scream! Drama Queen! play some proper thief! :P

not that even kittening matters but i ran zerker 90% of the time and soldier 10% only cause my build allowed for it vs heavey burst teams and i made rank 1 in solo and team q and not to mention making my reputation along the way.

sry u have a bias agasint me cause i told u straight but sometimes reality hurts kitten

btw what is proper thief build lol id love to see how uve copied something offline and used it as if u tried all the other possiblities

sry i thought up something that worked for me and sry you too terrible to maake something work for you as well as i have but bringing ur bais bullkitten here like ur kittening davinci or some kitten doesnt help the game at all so plz kitten

im only here to try and bring thief back up to par with some of the other nonsense in the game right now and these are a few ways of doing that

Bp was more than just move out of the circle, it was a near permanent combo field which offered the thief and his/her team huge advantages (blind on entry, blind on projectile finisher, stealth on blast, and stealth on leap). Also, the range of bp is larger than the circle indicates. Standing right outside field will result in blind (try it for yourself). I know there are ways of counter play, but it involves a huge amount of condi removal, immunity, and dodging bullets (which aren’t telegraphed that well). This ain’t the matrix… there just wasn’t enough dodges and condi-removal to counter the blind spam. Sure you could probably build for it, but hitting like a wet noodle doesn’t do anybody any good. Pvp should be about skill and not cheap builds with gimmicky skills.

BP is a shot to the face, and a ground shot. So if you fail to see the shot to the face (because it’s not telegraphed well), you are already blinded, then you have to somehow reach the thief who is sitting in the field spamming auto attack, stacking more blinds, and when you finally reach him/her the field blinds you.

I recently started playing thief, and it has been fun.

official.7362:

not that even kittening matters but i ran zerker 90% of the time and soldier 10% only cause my build allowed for it vs heavey burst teams and i made rank 1 in solo and team q and not to mention making my reputation along the way.

sry u have a bias agasint me cause i told u straight but sometimes reality hurts kitten

btw what is proper thief build lol id love to see how uve copied something offline and used it as if u tried all the other possiblities

sry i thought up something that worked for me and sry you too terrible to maake something work for you as well as i have but bringing ur bais bullkitten here like ur kittening davinci or some kitten doesnt help the game at all so plz kitten

im only here to try and bring thief back up to par with some of the other nonsense in the game right now and these are a few ways of doing that

I know who you were,you was a thief who exploit perma stealth and burst everything what moved,well game changed ,thief have roll now sry if you don’t know what that is! GL HF :P

official.7362:

LOL OMG TOTAL IMMUNITY HOW EVER DID WE DIE

u realize it you were able to hit the thief even while standing inside it before right? it was every 3 hits instead of every other hit perfectly fine imo not to mention you can kittenign stand outside the ring and still hit the thief so plz tell me more p/p thief lol

the whole nerf of revealed was because ppl were running d/d in wvw spamming c/d over and over again not to mention pvp is a completely different stealth game where no rules apply of stealthing as much as you want but in pvp if your sitting in stealth over and over your punished for it and so is your team

pw is totally not fine thats why no one kittenign runs it in pvp cause it doesnt do enough dmg

i can totally see why it was nerfd in pve cause of pve mobs being kittening kittened but for you to be kittened and come in here making a fool of your self well that doesnt fly with me

You didn’t if you knew how to use the field properly. Stacking two between their pulses made it literally impossible to get an attack through. Finishers further enforced this.

To be disagreeing with me of all people with clearly no understanding of the mechanics at hand is not me making a fool of myself but the total contrary.

All I can read from your post history is that you genuinely do not know how to play the the class properly and are not willing to make adjustments and take the appropriate risks to make the build perform how you seem to want it to.

official.7362:

not that even kittening matters but i ran zerker 90% of the time and soldier 10% only cause my build allowed for it vs heavey burst teams and i made rank 1 in solo and team q and not to mention making my reputation along the way.

sry u have a bias agasint me cause i told u straight but sometimes reality hurts kitten

btw what is proper thief build lol id love to see how uve copied something offline and used it as if u tried all the other possiblities

sry i thought up something that worked for me and sry you too terrible to maake something work for you as well as i have but bringing ur bais bullkitten here like ur kittening davinci or some kitten doesnt help the game at all so plz kitten

im only here to try and bring thief back up to par with some of the other nonsense in the game right now and these are a few ways of doing that

Black powder nerf should be reverted and revealed too

on the other thing, you WERE a bad cheesy thief carried super hard by permastealth DP, I remember how you would leave combat in duels back in spring 2013.

haha clearly my trash taking has paid off for me in this game look at all these bias players

sry u guys got kitten on by me or made fun of by me in the past but none of that has anything to do with what im talking about here black power was counterable with every 3rd hit and no matter what stupid kitten u think up it wont change that fact that you could still hit the thief outsit the ring of the circle

sry that your all terrible and dont know how to move out of a kittening circle maybe you should go back to pve where mobs dont move

why do you guys even come here when u just started playing thief you clearly dont have any understand of thief. Ive got over 10k tourny games and r1 solo and team q on thief alone. And to everyone here who thinks i only played SA is kittening wrong ive tested a kittenton more hours on thief then anyone here so unless uve got something better to say than something about me or my builds which have nothing to do with this forum post and clearly your bias towards then just leave cause no matter how much but hurt you have agasint me your only hurting urselves

u morons act like SA is something cheese when its really only cheese in pve and wvw were you dont have to worry about sitting in stealth forever but in pvp where im sure none of u have even set foot you actually have to put pressure on far to the other team and thats exactly what i did better than anyone else which is why all of u morons even know my name cause i kitten on u with a build that clearly no one understood or knew how to play it. Sry that i learned that the thief was more about setting up outnumberd fights then it is fighting in them

so plz continue ur bias against me it feeds me and ill continue to kitten on u with bad cheesy builds as u like to call it

ps plz setup the fourms in a way that seperates thief chat with pvers and pvpers its just causing arguements over different game modes that clearly are much much different

It is time to live in future don’t you think!

official.7362:

haha clearly my trash taking has paid off for me in this game look at all these bias players

sry u guys got kitten on by me or made fun of by me in the past but none of that has anything to do with what im talking about here black power was counterable with every 3rd hit and no matter what stupid kitten u think up it wont change that fact that you could still hit the thief outsit the ring of the circle

sry that your all terrible and dont know how to move out of a kittening circle maybe you should go back to pve where mobs dont move

why do you guys even come here when u just started playing thief you clearly dont have any understand of thief. Ive got over 10k tourny games and r1 solo and team q on thief alone. And to everyone here who thinks i only played SA is kittening wrong ive tested a kittenton more hours on thief then anyone here so unless uve got something better to say than something about me or my builds which have nothing to do with this forum post and clearly your bias towards then just leave cause no matter how much but hurt you have agasint me your only hurting urselves

u morons act like SA is something cheese when its really only cheese in pve and wvw were you dont have to worry about sitting in stealth forever but in pvp where im sure none of u have even set foot you actually have to put pressure on far to the other team and thats exactly what i did better than anyone else which is why all of u morons even know my name cause i kitten on u with a build that clearly no one understood or knew how to play it. Sry that i learned that the thief was more about setting up outnumberd fights then it is fighting in them

so plz continue ur bias against me it feeds me and ill continue to kitten on u with bad cheesy builds as u like to call it

ps plz setup the fourms in a way that seperates thief chat with pvers and pvpers its just causing arguements over different game modes that clearly are much much different

You sure do like kittens!

BP is not for D/P, it is for P/P. Stop using it to blind some one instead use it like every other D/P users do — for stealth.

Using P/P, there is no issue with BP since I can force a blind on my target because each of my bullets are now causing blindness. I can sit in BP and deny them damage by constantly blinding them. And if they are attacking faster than I can apply blind with my auto-attack, I simply use Unload.

Working as intended.

Thus the nerf on the BP is to affect D/P because not only they have access to stealth, giving them an easy way to blind their target made it a highly favorable weapon set.

As for revealed. It’s such a bad mechanic concocted by developers lazy enough to make a well thought out solution to stealth-chain. I never agree that this it the right solution to stealth-chain since all it does is deny us from using our sneak attacks for a given time. Backstab requires stealth, melee range and position to deliver a high damage attack while other professions requires neither yet deals even more damage.

Chrono# . Every thief build is cheese anyway. I used to think SA is for bads but acro thief is even cheesier than SA.

The only thing that isint cheese is 26006 but its too squishy .

i feel like im in a room with a bunch of p/p thieves, o wait i am (lol)

is there anyone who actually wants to make a real point here or are u guys just going to trash talk me and say things that dont really have any backing or credibility (i loled so hard at the guy who thinks the nerf was because of how easy it is to get into stealth how do those 2 things have anything to do with each other)

i have to be honest tho i didnt make this forum for other thieves to comment their thoughts on because lets be honest we all know how few real thieves who actually know how to play pvp and can prove it day in and out

im going to bet if you did a study that there are more non thieves giving their opinion on thief than there are real ones in the thief forums

I’m curious to know if you’re back in PvP. If so, do you still play thief? If so, what build? Is it not working?

personally ive always thought thieves place was to use mobility to get to far drop shadow trap fake stealth as if your going to 1v1 far and stealth up to mid while the other tries to figure out if your still far your 5v4ing at mid. The mobility is key because it gets you to mid just as they are for the outnumbered 5v4 I must be one of the only thieves who use stealth to setup outnumberd fights if i see their homepoint moving to mid ill try and fake stealth towards his point again if he doesnt bite i stay in the 5v5 until either one of our teamates have died or one of theirs then i take the decap on their point otherwise. This is something most thieves get wrong you dont leave the 5v5 to get the decap you stay until the fight is decided

im kinda blown away at how many thieves dont use shadow trap to be honest prolly cause it would mess up their internet found 2/6/0/0/6 build

as for what im running now i personally still like d/p 0/6/6/2/0 for pvp because i dont like s/d gameplay, and i think it has the most dmg output with the way i spec with double signet 25 might stack almost permanently with strenght ammy

stop trying to play thief as a teamfight spec and start learning how to rotate in ways that trick other teams into undernumberd fights

i think anet needs to ask themselves are we giving some of these players too much reward for thier risk and tone things down that way

Is this OP for real?

It seems that he’s having a hard time grasping that the BP nerf is to limit the D/P’s utility. You can’t just go in stealth and us BP to protect yourself while waiting for reveal to go away. Nerfing the BP is create a counter play window at least every other attack.

You’re wrong into thinking that the change to BP is for PvE. If ArenaNet will separate the nerf, this nerf will stay in PvP.

lol i once again i know you suck at the game but dont bring us all down to your level every other attack is way to simple every 3rd made it actually a skillful counter not mind-blowingly easy counters like every other hit. Not to mention just standing around the ring and hitting them. what is so hard about understand that we are thieves which is to say very kittening squishy and shouldnt be as easily hit so im guess your a warrior main since they are the only ones who ever complained about it who doesnt know how to pop his kitten er stance effectively.

U guys act like it was permanent blind which is clearly wasnt

can we all please just ignore the p/p thief

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Is this OP for real?

It seems that he’s having a hard time grasping that the BP nerf is to limit the D/P’s utility. You can’t just go in stealth and us BP to protect yourself while waiting for reveal to go away. Nerfing the BP is create a counter play window at least every other attack.

You’re wrong into thinking that the change to BP is for PvE. If ArenaNet will separate the nerf, this nerf will stay in PvP.

In what world did BP protect you while you were waiting for reveal to go away? It’s radius was smaller than melee range – it is possible to melee someone standing in BP from outside the circle no matter where they stood inside BP’s effect. On top of that nearly every meta spec has ranged options, which BP is worthless against.

BP wasn’t changed to have “less utility” in D/P – it was changed into garbage. Prior to the nerf, you could use BP to force an opponent to reposition, and maybe buy yourself 1-2 seconds. Now it’s a giant telegraph that tells your opponents to ready their interrupts, you’re going into stealth because 19 times out 20, shadow shot is the superior ability if you want to blind your opponent. 1 blind every 2 seconds isn’t good enough to keep a thief up against any meta spec, so your opponent can just wade right through it and still win the fight. How is that worth 6 init?

BP either needs to return 2 Init when the projectile hits (making it cheaper to use in combat but not cheaper to use just to gain stealth outside of combat), or it needs better damage. 6 init is far to much initiative to just tell your opponents you’re going to try and go into stealth. Or they could just revert it back to how it was – if your opponent cant move around a small circle in PvP, they’ve got bigger problems than D/P thieves.

omg someone with a brain posted on my fourm post!!!1 i was losing faith and patience

i bet the p/p thief plays p/p cause he never leaned that thief can shadow shot backstab from range

I’ll pretend I didn’t read the ad hom, so tell me this;

What make you think that the nerf to BP was for PvE when the mobs in PvE attacked every 2s if not slower?

official.7362:

omg someone with a brain posted on my fourm post!!!1 i was losing faith and patience

i bet the p/p thief plays p/p cause he never leaned that thief can shadow shot backstab from range

I’m not sure why anyone would bring up P/P in a conversation concerning PvP – it’s a broken, disjointed set that no one uses.

As much as deciever likes to swear up and down he has some amazing PvP P/P build, common sense says otherwise. The simple fact that you’ve never seen a P/P thief in a tournament should be proof enough that it doesn’t exist. We could also mathematically tear down his argument when he inevitably tells me I’m crazy for calling his P/P build not viable. That or he’ll talk about how it’s some unstoppable dueling set, which is about as relevant as arguing who’s armor looks to the best since the only available PvP mode has almost nothing to do with how well a spec duels.

lol i wouldnt know i dont pve its an extremely easy pve system that only requires time not effort or skill (kinda like our new leaderboards guys lol)

im saying it was clearly for pve because clearly anyone who cant move out of the tiny ring doesnt need to be playing pvp at all and should go back to pve where they belong

we need to have pve and pvp section of the forums on thief because this is clearly whats happening only a pver would run p/p (prolly thinks hes good for beating fractals with it)

btw as far as the revealed nerf they even stated on their twitch that it was meant to stop wvwers from constantly using d/d cloak and dagger to never die basically which is fun and all but in pvp where you constantly need to be putting pressure that just doesnt fly

BP nerf was not needed.

Too many people complained about it but let’s be honest here. If you stood in the circle you deserved to die

Also BP negating downed abilities was in game since release for years….so the scapegoat reason they used is useless.

Having said all that i’ve still moved on b/c I’ve had no choice. It is what it is right now and thieves remain the most nerfed class in this game. We need to not try and get ourselves nerfed due to weapon set bias

ps. Calling for condi thief nerf is well deserved and needs more clamor for it.

official.7362:

lol i wouldnt know i dont pve its an extremely easy pve system that only requires time not effort or skill (kinda like our new leaderboards guys lol)

im saying it was clearly for pve because clearly anyone who cant move out of the tiny ring doesnt need to be playing pvp at all and should go back to pve where they belong

we need to have pve and pvp section of the forums on thief because this is clearly whats happening only a pver would run p/p (prolly thinks hes good for beating fractals with it)

I’ll tell you now that nothing in PvE are even affected by the BP nerf mainly because mob AI in PvE are dumb.

However based on your topic, it seems to me that the nerf is indeed intended for PvP, otherwise you won’t even be here.

Now whether that nerf is justified or not, it’s a whole different discussion concerning ArenaNet’s competence when it comes to Thieves.

btw as far as the revealed nerf they even stated on their twitch that it was meant to stop wvwers from constantly using d/d cloak and dagger to never die basically which is fun and all but in pvp where you constantly need to be putting pressure that just doesnt fly

Knowing ArenaNet, what they say is not always what they do. You should know this by now.

Just think about it, if that is really the case, why is revealed 4s in PvP and 3s anywhere else?

If you put all these together, you get the notion that ArenaNet is punishing players who plays Thief well. Getting a successful backstab should put you open for counter play, but we know better so we dodge, blind, evade, etc. All our counter to their counter plays have been nerfed. Evade, endurance, swiftness, shadow return, blind — all got hit by the nerf bat.

evilapprentice.6379:

In what world did BP protect you while you were waiting for reveal to go away? It’s radius was smaller than melee range – it is possible to melee someone standing in BP from outside the circle no matter where they stood inside BP’s effect. On top of that nearly every meta spec has ranged options, which BP is worthless against.

BP wasn’t changed to have “less utility” in D/P – it was changed into garbage. Prior to the nerf, you could use BP to force an opponent to reposition, and maybe buy yourself 1-2 seconds. Now it’s a giant telegraph that tells your opponents to ready their interrupts, you’re going into stealth because 19 times out 20, shadow shot is the superior ability if you want to blind your opponent. 1 blind every 2 seconds isn’t good enough to keep a thief up against any meta spec, so your opponent can just wade right through it and still win the fight. How is that worth 6 init?

BP either needs to return 2 Init when the projectile hits (making it cheaper to use in combat but not cheaper to use just to gain stealth outside of combat), or it needs better damage. 6 init is far to much initiative to just tell your opponents you’re going to try and go into stealth. Or they could just revert it back to how it was – if your opponent cant move around a small circle in PvP, they’ve got bigger problems than D/P thieves.

Take a 10 radius step backward from your attacker while inside. Problem solved. Basic geometry dictates the amount of movement needed to attack you by rotating around the outside of the circle will always be more than what’s needed to re-position inside/in a tighter radius. If you can’t kite inside of BP and avoid damage, that itself is a L2P problem; your enemies are totally irrelevant because skilled use of the skill actually prevents any counter-play at all in a 1v1 scenario, and if you’re outnumbered, why are you revealed, and why are you not running away from the fight? The ability for melee attacks to barely reach into the field is barely a bad excuse to say the skill was fair. It’s extremely easy to do and is and should always be faster than your opponent’s movements. Use proper angles. Stack effects with a 10 radius offset. Standing in the center or closer to your foe would have gotten you killed before the nerf. It helped punish heartseeker scrubs just spamming 2 on top of a BP’ed enemy as well.

I wouldn’t call BP a giant telegraph. It’s less telegraphed than backstab itself even while stealthed, and it provides extreme amounts of utility. Everyone seems to forget it blinds twice on cast, the first on the ranged projectile and the second on the first pulse. You can punish hambow warrior hard with the skill by using it while they’re in the air during earthshaker (BP has a faster full animation and the projectile is instant) and proper use of evade timing and keeping track of the enemy’s blinds and your pulses lets you know when you need to evade or not.

BP is a better blind than shadow show when timed properly due to the multiple application. It can blatantly prevent you from dying to certain combo attempts. BP isn’t supposed to be a refuge during revealed. You play the thief and deal with revealed as a repercussion of being able to attack from stealth/stealth skills. There is no such thing as a safe haven for a thief and there shouldn’t be. Play well or die. That’s what the game and this profession in general are supposed to be about. Use the profession mechanics to your advantage and play in a way conducive to its design.

The reality of the matter is that the thief as a profession does simply not play well in sPvP. And it never will with its dependencies on stealth for its most important utility. BP was overpowered because it allowed for too much staying power despite the fact the class wasn’t meant to have any.

It’s worth 6 initiative because it’s a ranged blind with a smoke field which allows for stealth off of HS (D/P’s strongest asset) and to punish point/targeted location fighting. If you’re sitting in BP planning on taking hits, you’re doing thief wrong, just saying. If BP isn’t worth six initiative, do tell me, why is Cloak and Dagger, seeing as it’s strictly worse in regards to what it does in the format?

This thread shouldn’t be about BP. It should be about thieves in general. Undoing the BP nerf is not a solution to make the class more viable in sPvP but a side-step to the problem by re-implementing an overpowered skill (clearly only so in the right hands).

They could perhaps start by buffing the condition cleansing of the class overall and undoing some of the damage nerfs to skills which did not deserve them, like CnD, and undoing some of the other more general utility effects the class had in the past to help deal with aggressors’ incoming strikes.

i dont evne know why i post here people kittenpond on these types of issues are almost always bais and do not play thief main at all. clearly something is wrong when people are ignoreing black powder all together and sitting in it without any real thought process or concequence

the simple fact still remains that you could still hit them inside it no matter what any of you morons say it was every 3 hits and you could still hit someone insde the ring even if they are trying to avoid you it was the only thing that allowed thief to get some breathing room and now that is clearly gone when people ignore the field all together and get off their attacks with little to no effort.

believe it or not thief is in a terrible state right now and this was clearly an over nerf that should not have been given the light of day in pvp. i mean like the other guy said it if you have a problem moving out of the small circle you have much bigger problems in gw2

DeceiverX.8361:

evilapprentice.6379:

snip

Take a 10 radius step backward from your attacker while inside. Problem solved. Basic geometry dictates the amount of movement needed to attack you by rotating around the outside of the circle will always be more than what’s needed to re-position inside/in a tighter radius. If you can’t kite inside of BP and avoid damage, that itself is a L2P problem; your enemies are totally irrelevant because skilled use of the skill actually prevents any counter-play at all in a 1v1 scenario, and if you’re outnumbered, why are you revealed, and why are you not running away from the fight? The ability for melee attacks to barely reach into the field is barely a bad excuse to say the skill was fair. It’s extremely easy to do and is and should always be faster than your opponent’s movements. Use proper angles. Stack effects with a 10 radius offset. Standing in the center or closer to your foe would have gotten you killed before the nerf. It helped punish heartseeker scrubs just spamming 2 on top of a BP’ed enemy as well.

Please, go on and explain how BP “prevents counterplay at all in a 1v1 scenario”. Be sure to include how it does so against ranged weapons, because for the life of me I can’t figure that one out.

The ability for melee attacks to barely reach into the field is barely a bad excuse to say the skill was fair. It’s extremely easy to do and is and should always be faster than your opponent’s movements.

Other classes get actual damage prevention – Blocks, psuedo-invulnerabilities, actual invulnerability, competent condition cleansing, access to stability and protection, etc – those skills are deemed fair. A blind field that can be played around (with some effort of course) seems fair in comparison.

Use proper angles. Stack effects with a 10 radius offset.

Yes, 12 initiative for 3.5 seconds of “it’s kind of hard to hit you in melee” seems like a fair tradeoff. It’s a wonder we didn’t see it all the time in TPvP before the nerf.

Standing in the center or closer to your foe would have gotten you killed before the nerf. It helped punish heartseeker scrubs just spamming 2 on top of a BP’ed enemy as well.

I wouldn’t call BP a giant telegraph. It’s less telegraphed than backstab itself even while stealthed, and it provides extreme amounts of utility. Everyone seems to forget it blinds twice on cast, the first on the ranged projectile and the second on the first pulse. You can punish hambow warrior hard with the skill by using it while they’re in the air during earthshaker (BP has a faster full animation and the projectile is instant)

You could have punished him more with SS, which has a faster blind and 5 times the damage for 2 less initiative.

and proper use of evade timing and keeping track of the enemy’s blinds and your pulses lets you know when you need to evade or not.

BP doesn’t interact with evading in any special way – you’re trying to make BP seem better by describing normal play, as if it were some special case for BP

BP is a better blind than shadow show when timed properly due to the multiple application. It can blatantly prevent you from dying to certain combo attempts. BP isn’t supposed to be a refuge during revealed.

It never was – see above concerning ranged weapons.

You play the thief and deal with revealed as a repercussion of being able to attack from stealth/stealth skills. There is no such thing as a safe haven for a thief and there shouldn’t be. Play well or die. That’s what the game and this profession in general are supposed to be about. Use the profession mechanics to your advantage and play in a way conducive to its design.

BP was never this impenetrable bubble you’ve fantasized it to be, which is the entire point of this conversation. You’ve done little to prove that point, instead speaking as though it were a given.

The reality of the matter is that the thief as a profession does simply not play well in sPvP. And it never will with its dependencies on stealth for its most important utility. BP was overpowered because it allowed for too much staying power despite the fact the class wasn’t meant to have any.

That dynamic changed as they nerfed thief damage time and time again without offering anything in the way of sustain.

It’s worth 6 initiative because it’s a ranged blind with a smoke field which allows for stealth off of HS (D/P’s strongest asset) and to punish point/targeted location fighting. If you’re sitting in BP planning on taking hits, you’re doing thief wrong, just saying. If BP isn’t worth six initiative, do tell me, why is Cloak and Dagger, seeing as it’s strictly worse in regards to what it does in the format?

It no longer punishes point fighting – 1 blind every 2 seconds does very little to most meta builds, which again I already explained. You again offer no proof, you just state it as though it were a fact. CnD does 3 times as much damage, stacks some vulnerability, and gives you stealth at 66% the cost of Stealth from BP – it’s strictly worse than BP because it’s attached to D/D (which is strictly worse than D/P) and S/D (which doesn’t value stealth nearly as much as D/X Does)

This thread shouldn’t be about BP. It should be about thieves in general. Undoing the BP nerf is not a solution to make the class more viable in sPvP but a side-step to the problem by re-implementing an overpowered skill (clearly only so in the right hands).

Like in your unkillable P/P build? Being dismissive and stating opinion and conjecture as though they were fact does not further your point.

They could perhaps start by buffing the condition cleansing of the class overall and undoing some of the damage nerfs to skills which did not deserve them, like CnD, and undoing some of the other more general utility effects the class had in the past to help deal with aggressors’ incoming strikes.

Hey, something we agree on. BP would indeed be fine as is if they did some of the things you’ve listed. Unfortunately, Anet doesn’t seem too keen on making those changes.

everything deviever says points to him being a pver (p/p spec, the want for buffs to d/d, the constant misunderstanding of how players fight other players)

id infact put money that he doesnt even play thief in pvp

yep pver written all over him

Wow, this thread kind of blew up.

BP is very op. Spamming it is hard, yes, but not impossible, especially on point with targets around you. This made it so you could keep a point contested almost indefinitely. So its not about targets/enemies being in the BP circle, but about the thief being able to stay on point.

And the revealed debuff was introduced so thief’s couldn’t spam C&D on walls/bridges for perma stealths. But I feel it’s now needed in PvP because of how well general players have gotten with the thief. So I feels it would’ve been introduced because to balance in PvP eventually.

Drools at the thought of p/d without reveal debuff.

ChoChoBo.6503:

Wow, this thread kind of blew up.

BP is very op. Spamming it is hard, yes, but not impossible, especially on point with targets around you. This made it so you could keep a point contested almost indefinitely. So its not about targets/enemies being in the BP circle, but about the thief being able to stay on point.

So…you exclusively fought DPS Guardians? Because as far as I can tell, any War Engi Necro Ele Ranger Mes Thief would have simply switched to their ranged weapon and completely ignored the 12-18 init you dumped into a tiny melee resistant circle; if they were feeling too lazy to move around your little circle that is.

official.7362:

everything deviever says points to him being a pver (p/p spec, the want for buffs to d/d, the constant misunderstanding of how players fight other players)

id infact put money that he doesnt even play thief in pvp

yep pver written all over him

No, actually. I’m a relatively renowned WvW thief main.

And frankly, no PvE’er would ask for D/D buffs; D/D is the most powerful set in PvE and provides the highest single-target DPS in the game in terms of sustained throughputs over every other class and build. Records are only held by other builds through either exploits or party-wide might stacking.

Using P/P is only viable in sPvP. It’s the worst spec in WvW and the second-least effective in PvE. Yet my defense, and as others have stated, is that P/P with the old blinding powder was absolutely ridiculous due to the finishers offered by the pistol mainhand which led to constant blinds at range.

But whatever. If those who can’t use the skill properly are going to insist it’s under-powered, so be it.

no one cares how u justify your p/p or d/d this is a pvp discussion

evilapprentice.6379:

ChoChoBo.6503:

Wow, this thread kind of blew up.

BP is very op. Spamming it is hard, yes, but not impossible, especially on point with targets around you. This made it so you could keep a point contested almost indefinitely. So its not about targets/enemies being in the BP circle, but about the thief being able to stay on point.

So…you exclusively fought DPS Guardians? Because as far as I can tell, any War Engi Necro Ele Ranger Mes Thief would have simply switched to their ranged weapon and completely ignored the 12-18 init you dumped into a tiny melee resistant circle; if they were feeling too lazy to move around your little circle that is.

Contesting a point doesn’t mean bunkering. If a point is about to be flipped, BP is a great option for thief’s to keep it contested. I’m afraid you might not comprehend how valuable it is to be able to keep a point contested. If you want to range and fight off point, when you don’t own the point, go for it. I don’t mind fighting you off point in that situation.

why do you speak of bp as if you cant just drop it again as soon as they walk out of it…. you don’t have any cooldowns

ChoChoBo.6503:

evilapprentice.6379:

ChoChoBo.6503:

Wow, this thread kind of blew up.

BP is very op. Spamming it is hard, yes, but not impossible, especially on point with targets around you. This made it so you could keep a point contested almost indefinitely. So its not about targets/enemies being in the BP circle, but about the thief being able to stay on point.

So…you exclusively fought DPS Guardians? Because as far as I can tell, any War Engi Necro Ele Ranger Mes Thief would have simply switched to their ranged weapon and completely ignored the 12-18 init you dumped into a tiny melee resistant circle; if they were feeling too lazy to move around your little circle that is.

Contesting a point doesn’t mean bunkering. If a point is about to be flipped, BP is a great option for thief’s to keep it contested. I’m afraid you might not comprehend how valuable it is to be able to keep a point contested. If you want to range and fight off point, when you don’t own the point, go for it. I don’t mind fighting you off point in that situation.

I’m afraid you misunderstand some very basic concepts in this game.

1. Literally every other class in the game is better at contesting a point than Thief.

2. Your opponents can stand on point And fire their ranged weapons at you while standing outside BP’s effect, All at the same time! They do not need to stand off point to turn your melee resistant circle into a complete waste of init with their ranged weapons.

3. Dancing around inside of a BP effect on a contested point is probably the absolute least effective thing you can do for your team as a Thief (outside of very rare, specific, niche situations). Nobody wants their squishy, highly mobile, burst roamer to be sitting in place and doing 0 damage just so they can avoid some melee damage.

evilapprentice.6379:

ChoChoBo.6503:

evilapprentice.6379:

ChoChoBo.6503:

Wow, this thread kind of blew up.

BP is very op. Spamming it is hard, yes, but not impossible, especially on point with targets around you. This made it so you could keep a point contested almost indefinitely. So its not about targets/enemies being in the BP circle, but about the thief being able to stay on point.

So…you exclusively fought DPS Guardians? Because as far as I can tell, any War Engi Necro Ele Ranger Mes Thief would have simply switched to their ranged weapon and completely ignored the 12-18 init you dumped into a tiny melee resistant circle; if they were feeling too lazy to move around your little circle that is.

Contesting a point doesn’t mean bunkering. If a point is about to be flipped, BP is a great option for thief’s to keep it contested. I’m afraid you might not comprehend how valuable it is to be able to keep a point contested. If you want to range and fight off point, when you don’t own the point, go for it. I don’t mind fighting you off point in that situation.

I’m afraid you misunderstand some very basic concepts in this game.

1. Literally every other class in the game is better at contesting a point than Thief.

2. Your opponents can stand on point And fire their ranged weapons at you while standing outside BP’s effect, All at the same time! They do not need to stand off point to turn your melee resistant circle into a complete waste of init with their ranged weapons.

3. Dancing around inside of a BP effect on a contested point is probably the absolute least effective thing you can do for your team as a Thief (outside of very rare, specific, niche situations). Nobody wants their squishy, highly mobile, burst roamer to be sitting in place and doing 0 damage just so they can avoid some melee damage.

Do you drop BP when your opponent is using ranged? Seriously? Come on.

We all know that BP is anti-melee and if they use ranged weapon we get into their face with Shadow Shot.

Or BP+Steal→HS→BS.

Sure other profession are better than Thieves at contesting a point but this is not due to BP. The main problem is that Thief’s damage has been nerfed while other profession’s defenses are buffed. ArenaNet needs to give us our burst back.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

ChoChoBo.6503:

evilapprentice.6379:

ChoChoBo.6503:

Wow, this thread kind of blew up.

BP is very op. Spamming it is hard, yes, but not impossible, especially on point with targets around you. This made it so you could keep a point contested almost indefinitely. So its not about targets/enemies being in the BP circle, but about the thief being able to stay on point.

So…you exclusively fought DPS Guardians? Because as far as I can tell, any War Engi Necro Ele Ranger Mes Thief would have simply switched to their ranged weapon and completely ignored the 12-18 init you dumped into a tiny melee resistant circle; if they were feeling too lazy to move around your little circle that is.

Contesting a point doesn’t mean bunkering. If a point is about to be flipped, BP is a great option for thief’s to keep it contested. I’m afraid you might not comprehend how valuable it is to be able to keep a point contested. If you want to range and fight off point, when you don’t own the point, go for it. I don’t mind fighting you off point in that situation.

I’m afraid you misunderstand some very basic concepts in this game.

1. Literally every other class in the game is better at contesting a point than Thief.

2. Your opponents can stand on point And fire their ranged weapons at you while standing outside BP’s effect, All at the same time! They do not need to stand off point to turn your melee resistant circle into a complete waste of init with their ranged weapons.

3. Dancing around inside of a BP effect on a contested point is probably the absolute least effective thing you can do for your team as a Thief (outside of very rare, specific, niche situations). Nobody wants their squishy, highly mobile, burst roamer to be sitting in place and doing 0 damage just so they can avoid some melee damage.

Do you drop BP when your opponent is using ranged? Seriously? Come on.

We all know that BP is anti-melee and if they use ranged weapon we get into their face with Shadow Shot.

Or BP+Steal->HS->BS.

Chocho was specifically mentioning dropping BP then just dancing around in it as a way to contest points, and cited it as a reason BP was so OP. I was simply pointing out how silly that scenario was because “they will just switch to their ranged weapons and ignore your little melee resistant circle”.

Sure other profession are better than Thieves at contesting a point but this is not due to BP. The main problem is that Thief’s damage has been nerfed while other profession’s defenses are buffed. ArenaNet needs to give us our burst back.

I agree completely – until the give us our burst back, the BP nerf should be reverted.

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

ChoChoBo.6503:

evilapprentice.6379:

ChoChoBo.6503:

Wow, this thread kind of blew up.

BP is very op. Spamming it is hard, yes, but not impossible, especially on point with targets around you. This made it so you could keep a point contested almost indefinitely. So its not about targets/enemies being in the BP circle, but about the thief being able to stay on point.

So…you exclusively fought DPS Guardians? Because as far as I can tell, any War Engi Necro Ele Ranger Mes Thief would have simply switched to their ranged weapon and completely ignored the 12-18 init you dumped into a tiny melee resistant circle; if they were feeling too lazy to move around your little circle that is.

Contesting a point doesn’t mean bunkering. If a point is about to be flipped, BP is a great option for thief’s to keep it contested. I’m afraid you might not comprehend how valuable it is to be able to keep a point contested. If you want to range and fight off point, when you don’t own the point, go for it. I don’t mind fighting you off point in that situation.

I’m afraid you misunderstand some very basic concepts in this game.

1. Literally every other class in the game is better at contesting a point than Thief.

2. Your opponents can stand on point And fire their ranged weapons at you while standing outside BP’s effect, All at the same time! They do not need to stand off point to turn your melee resistant circle into a complete waste of init with their ranged weapons.

3. Dancing around inside of a BP effect on a contested point is probably the absolute least effective thing you can do for your team as a Thief (outside of very rare, specific, niche situations). Nobody wants their squishy, highly mobile, burst roamer to be sitting in place and doing 0 damage just so they can avoid some melee damage.

Do you drop BP when your opponent is using ranged? Seriously? Come on.

We all know that BP is anti-melee and if they use ranged weapon we get into their face with Shadow Shot.

Or BP+Steal->HS->BS.

Chocho was specifically mentioning dropping BP then just dancing around in it as a way to contest points, and cited it as a reason BP was so OP. I was simply pointing out how silly that scenario was because “they will just switch to their ranged weapons and ignore your little melee resistant circle”.

Ah, I see. That’s just silly then.

Sure other profession are better than Thieves at contesting a point but this is not due to BP. The main problem is that Thief’s damage has been nerfed while other profession’s defenses are buffed. ArenaNet needs to give us our burst back.

I agree completely – until the give us our burst back, the BP nerf should be reverted.

It’s like you’re saying that it’s ok for ArenaNet to nerf our burst as long as they rollback BP. :/

IMO, they can nerf BP all they want because that doesn’t define Thief. I just want our burst back and the removal on Revealed completely. I don’t mind being a thin glass as long as I can cut them really really deep.

upping our burst is great and all and i agree but it wont stop other players from just out-sustaining us with immunity, protection, armor, blind, block, being an asura(lol), CC, fear runes, constant aoe to keep us from even going in for the burst. not to mention channeling which is one of the main reasons we take so much damage. the funny thing is you find nearly everything i stated on most meta builds these days.

Id like the ability to be able to have a shot against those meta builds by bringing back black powder so that i can stay in the fight longer with a fair pulsing black powder that allows the other team more than enough ability to still counter it will skillful 3rd hits and movement that gets them away from black powder just not in a way that lets any moron sit in black powder and swing away chunking the thief as if there is nothing even below their feet whcih is whats currently happening to everyone

i have this crazy theory that thief is supposed to be hard to catch or hit o i know crazy right

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

ChoChoBo.6503:

evilapprentice.6379:

ChoChoBo.6503:

Wow, this thread kind of blew up.

BP is very op. Spamming it is hard, yes, but not impossible, especially on point with targets around you. This made it so you could keep a point contested almost indefinitely. So its not about targets/enemies being in the BP circle, but about the thief being able to stay on point.

So…you exclusively fought DPS Guardians? Because as far as I can tell, any War Engi Necro Ele Ranger Mes Thief would have simply switched to their ranged weapon and completely ignored the 12-18 init you dumped into a tiny melee resistant circle; if they were feeling too lazy to move around your little circle that is.

Contesting a point doesn’t mean bunkering. If a point is about to be flipped, BP is a great option for thief’s to keep it contested. I’m afraid you might not comprehend how valuable it is to be able to keep a point contested. If you want to range and fight off point, when you don’t own the point, go for it. I don’t mind fighting you off point in that situation.

I’m afraid you misunderstand some very basic concepts in this game.

1. Literally every other class in the game is better at contesting a point than Thief.

2. Your opponents can stand on point And fire their ranged weapons at you while standing outside BP’s effect, All at the same time! They do not need to stand off point to turn your melee resistant circle into a complete waste of init with their ranged weapons.

3. Dancing around inside of a BP effect on a contested point is probably the absolute least effective thing you can do for your team as a Thief (outside of very rare, specific, niche situations). Nobody wants their squishy, highly mobile, burst roamer to be sitting in place and doing 0 damage just so they can avoid some melee damage.

Do you drop BP when your opponent is using ranged? Seriously? Come on.

We all know that BP is anti-melee and if they use ranged weapon we get into their face with Shadow Shot.

Or BP+Steal->HS->BS.

Chocho was specifically mentioning dropping BP then just dancing around in it as a way to contest points, and cited it as a reason BP was so OP. I was simply pointing out how silly that scenario was because “they will just switch to their ranged weapons and ignore your little melee resistant circle”.

Ah, I see. That’s just silly then.

Sure other profession are better than Thieves at contesting a point but this is not due to BP. The main problem is that Thief’s damage has been nerfed while other profession’s defenses are buffed. ArenaNet needs to give us our burst back.

I agree completely – until the give us our burst back, the BP nerf should be reverted.

It’s like you’re saying that it’s ok for ArenaNet to nerf our burst as long as they rollback BP. :/

IMO, they can nerf BP all they want because that doesn’t define Thief. I just want our burst back and the removal on Revealed completely. I don’t mind being a thin glass as long as I can cut them really really deep.

Thank you for recognizing the problems at hand. Reverting BP does nothing to solve the actual class problems except make troll bunker P/P a semi-viable-but-still-bad build and inhibit the class from succeeding where it needs to by allowing for lower burst damage due to the sustain BP offers on points.

BP shouldn’t be used at range to protect one’s self from range, but I can’t seem to get that through to people any other way. Stealing alone should be able to act as evasion from range from engineer grenades, cut off a ranger RF short through proper evasion techniques, and ultimately remove that gap to either force melee into BP or force them off point after taking burst damage and needing to range to kill you.

Otherwise you just stealth and force them to get on point to cap and you’re back in a favorable position.

official.7362:

upping our burst is great and all and i agree but it wont stop other players from just out-sustaining us with immunity, protection, armor, blind, block, being an asura(lol), CC, fear runes, constant aoe to keep us from even going in for the burst.

They out sustaining us because of our low burst damage. The nerfed we’ve suffered is on top of other profession’s buff on survivability.

However with high burst damage, using our shadow step skills, we can get in, do damage then get out — like we’re suppose to. The recent nerfed denied us from this so that we have to stay and fight other professions where they can out sustain us.

ArenaNet net is forcing Thief a play style that is so out of character.

not to mention channeling which is one of the main reasons we take so much damage. the funny thing is you find nearly everything i stated on most meta builds these days.

Not sure what kind of PvP player complains about channeled skills when it’s so easy to interrupt. Either use Pistol #4, trait for Sleight, or simply just get out of range. Inexperienced Thieves are the only ones who stealth when channeled.

Id like the ability to be able to have a shot against those meta builds by bringing back black powder so that i can stay in the fight longer with a fair pulsing black powder that allows the other team more than enough ability to still counter it will skillful 3rd hits and movement that gets them away from black powder just not in a way that lets any moron sit in black powder and swing away chunking the thief as if there is nothing even below their feet whcih is whats currently happening to everyone

i have this crazy theory that thief is supposed to be hard to catch or hit o i know crazy right

I don’t know why you’d want to play “fair” — seriously, we’re Thieves, we don’t do “fair”. GW2 is like a peewee football where if your team is ahead by 70 – 3, you get penalize for unsportsmanlike conduct.

The game isn’t about big bursts anymore but sustain.

They could make steal CnD bs hit like it used too and it wouldn’t be enough due to the amount of defenses/sustain of the cele classes.

If you build for burst, the reverted scaling and base damage would be enough. I’m currently able to stab for around 10k on celestial elementalists with my current build, and around 17k in WvW.

If you look at my WvW build, I suffer few problems even while standing in blobs or against multiple foes when properly evading major hits and dispatching enemies in one or two hits. Yes, dire condition builds give me a hard time, but every build has a weak spot (aside from some engi builds).

Not saying it’s the only fix or that the thief should be able to two-shot bunker builds with ease, just that the class under-performs currently due to the limitations imposed on it from repeated sPvP nerfs with the game mode type in mind. BP will not solve the class-wide problems the profession faces as much as skill performance nudges and tweaks to other more generic aspects of the class.

evilapprentice.6379:

ChoChoBo.6503:

evilapprentice.6379:

ChoChoBo.6503:

Wow, this thread kind of blew up.

BP is very op. Spamming it is hard, yes, but not impossible, especially on point with targets around you. This made it so you could keep a point contested almost indefinitely. So its not about targets/enemies being in the BP circle, but about the thief being able to stay on point.

So…you exclusively fought DPS Guardians? Because as far as I can tell, any War Engi Necro Ele Ranger Mes Thief would have simply switched to their ranged weapon and completely ignored the 12-18 init you dumped into a tiny melee resistant circle; if they were feeling too lazy to move around your little circle that is.

Contesting a point doesn’t mean bunkering . If a point is about to be flipped, BP is a great option for thief’s to keep it contested. I’m afraid you might not comprehend how valuable it is to be able to keep a point contested. If you want to range and fight off point, when you don’t own the point, go for it. I don’t mind fighting you off point in that situation.

I’m afraid you misunderstand some very basic concepts in this game.

1. Literally every other class in the game is better at contesting a point than Thief.

2. Your opponents can stand on point And fire their ranged weapons at you while standing outside BP’s effect, All at the same time! They do not need to stand off point to turn your melee resistant circle into a complete waste of init with their ranged weapons.

3. Dancing around inside of a BP effect on a contested point is probably the absolute least effective thing you can do for your team as a Thief (outside of very rare, specific, niche situations). Nobody wants their squishy, highly mobile, burst roamer to be sitting in place and doing 0 damage just so they can avoid some melee damage.

I think there’s been a bit of a misunderstanding here. 1 thiefs don’t stay on point, they go to enemy points and contesting it, bursting down targets that try are flipping or bunkering. Contesting isn’t the same as bunkering or capturing, its fighting on point to prevent opposite team from getting points.

If you’re gonna range on the point that’s fine, i’ll just melee you while you try to range me. anywhere you run on point I can drop a BP field, there’s litteraly no place to run if you choose to stay on point. That’s why they’re so good at fighting on point, they can stay alive wit BP while bursting targets down. If you want to range on point, go ahead, won’t stop my thief getting into melee range dropping a BP for a lil survivablity and bursting you down.

maybe i’m just using the word ‘contest’ wrong? i dont know anymore. BP is a powerful tool for a thief. Relying on a thief’s burst is all nice and dandy till you go up against 4 on point, all anyone can do is run away, using BP well enough u can keep 4 occupied on point long enough for back up to come by or ur team to cap the other two points (its nice to have options)

edit: removed the ’kitten’s

#forumrez
as a 6/0/2/0/6 d/p thief i gotta honestly agree with cruuk here ( as well as just knowing cruuk is a good player because of playing vs him in paid tourneys way back in the mists of time.) The bp nerf was unneeded and while it did not make me non viable it is a constant p*ss off that even finishing some one on thief is harder than it is on other classes. currently if i want to finish some one quickly i usually just cant I have to resort to cleaving the body. with the old BP i could at least negate some of the enemies downed abilities. I felt this was agreeable because if any one looks at me funny and i don’t have a blind dodge or teleport ready, I die. In terms of combat use if you are standing in the black powder you deserved to die… i mean srsly… it’s not that hard to move out of. Currently the s/d meta build is very dull and boring still punishing because you are zerker but will still rewards you even while playing sloppy because of having a million and two ways to escape. Where the d/p builds are super glassy you have to spend time to get into good a position and then burn cds to avoid mindless cleave from the 2 main cele classes. and then you backstab for not enough damage to make the ele worried. and don’t have a good bp to negate the damage about to hit you. In fact you have to hope ( HOPE) they use something with a cast time so you can headshot and gtfo or something without an evade attached to it so you can shadow shot and blind AN attack. I guess this is just me ranting and not all this may be fact or true because this is just an emotional rant but again this is just a thief frustrated with rando nerfs and buffs to things that will never be useful and having to outplay other classes to have an even fight.

At least you understand it’s an emotional rant. Most complaining don’t. If they do they never come back to admit it.