Guild Wars 2

The current shape of black powder makes it pretty worthless at blocking ranged attacks in PvP, but the circular shape is necessary for it being an anti-melee tool. Seeing as it costs 6 initiative, and melee can simply move out of it and keep you in melee range, can we explore some sort of solution that allows it to function as the ranged attack blocking field its supposed to be? Perhaps shots get stopped at the initial rim of a smoke field, instead of just not being allowed to pass through them?

lern2smokescreen or projectile finisher

Tempest Darqmane.4862:

lern2smokescreen or projectile finisher

Thanks for the wonderful advice. I forgot that I was asking for a black powder buff, and not for the ability to work as it was designed. Your advice also works wonders when I’m fighting 2 players; thankfully, I have infinite initiative to headshot target 2, then refocus on target 1.

In all seriousness though, I’m not talking about smoke screen – smoke screen works the way it was intended. Black powder however, doesn’t imo. It costs half a standard initiative bar, and melee can simply walk out of it to avoid the blind and keep you in melee range. its extremely poor at blocking ranged attacks because of its shape. All its really good for is owning melee that don’t know any better than to exit the field, and initiating stealth via HS – those are some sparse use cases for such an expensive attack.

tripple cross bp spot to get 12 stacks of might, get in bs, bp on him, auto hs bs again. if all those landed and you haven’t done significant dmg to him then pull out, start with tripple/quad crossing bp again.

I didn’t mean to offend. My advice may of been brief, but like it or not that’s the closest you’re gonna get for what you want.

“Ranged attack blocking field it’s supposed to be” eh? I can play the sarcasm game too. No really. I’m serious!

Good luck with achieving your spammable invincible smoke bubble that blocks everything.

Tempest Darqmane.4862:

I didn’t mean to offend. My advice may of been brief, but like it or not that’s the closest you’re gonna get for what you want.

“Ranged attack blocking field it’s supposed to be” eh? I can play the sarcasm game too. No really. I’m serious!

Good luck with achieving your spammable invincible smoke bubble that blocks everything.

A) “Spammable” is a funny way to put an ability that costs 6 init and does 200 damage in a power/crit setup.
B) At some point, the developers decided smoke should block ranged attacks. Then they made a smoke field that was very poor at it, due to its circular shape. Maybe they understood that, I don’t know; something tells me that’s not the case, since its easy to just walk out of the field, it does almost no damage, and is obscenely expensive.
C) It’s unfortunate we differ on opinions here, but I believe that there was intention behind making Black powder a smoke field, and very expensive to use. If I’m wrong, so be it, I’d like to hear from the Dev’s that this is the case. Until then, I believe the evidence points in favor of my opinion rather than yours.

Since it has a “range” of 900, I’d like to see it as a ground-targeted skill, which could then be put at the feet of anyone you like for a blinder. I don’t think this would be OP at all, since it does cost half of the standard initiative bar.

Personally, I mostly use Black Powder in PvE settings for blind or to get a Backstab. As a PvP skill I feel like it has very little utility compared to others that I could spend that 6 initiative on.

Black power is effective against targets within the smoke and not effective against targets outside the smoke. That’s correct. You can still use the smoke field for combos and they may help you. A thief has plenty of ways to work around the perfectly reasonable limitations of one skill on one weapon, not least to shadow step directly to the ranged enemy.

The damage output of smokescreen is not really relevant. Many weapon skills in many classes do less damage than auto-shots. They are there for utility and support, just like black powder.

Stooperdale.3560:

Black power is effective against targets within the smoke and not effective against targets outside the smoke. That’s correct. You can still use the smoke field for combos and they may help you. A thief has plenty of ways to work around the perfectly reasonable limitations of one skill on one weapon, not least to shadow step directly to the ranged enemy.

The damage output of smokescreen is not really relevant. Many weapon skills in many classes do less damage than auto-shots. They are there for utility and support, just like black powder.

I listed the damage since I was making a big deal out of the initiative cost – if Black powder hit like CnD and still performed as it does now, my entire argument would be invalid, hence pointing out the low damage.

I’m not asking that smoke field do anything additional – it seems silly to me that smoke fields block ranged attacks, but due to the shape of the smoke field, black powder is worthless for blocking ranged attacks. Other abilities that can counter range have no bearing on my argument – I didn’t claim thieves have poor tools for countering range, or miss the fact that smoke can be used for combo’s, just that an initiative intensive ability that has a “blocks projectiles” effects is extremely poor at doing so due to its shape.

Perhaps the devs just used smoke as a shortcut, seeing as it gives stealth and blinds with finishers – if that’s the case, I’d like to hear it acknowledged by the devs, or at least start a discussion about it. I’d still think the ability is a bit expensive for what it does, but whatevs. I’m not trying to go on a tirade – just curious as to the decisions that led to my current question.

Softspoken.2410:

I could just be reading it wrong, but it seems someone thinks black powder can block projectiles. It can’t. That’s a functionality unique to smoke screen.

Yes that would explain a lot.

Tempest Darqmane.4862:

Softspoken.2410:

I could just be reading it wrong, but it seems someone thinks black powder can block projectiles. It can’t. That’s a functionality unique to smoke screen.

Yes that would explain a lot.

Actually deleted that post because sudden doubts of “What if I’ve just missed it all this time???” combined with the wiki stating Enemy projectiles passing through smoke fields will miss their target.

Of course, as is no surprise when it comes to the fine details on the wiki: that is not actually true. Just tested it in Heart of the Mists: both the ranger and the thief were completely uninhibited by black powder’s smoke field, and shot me down in the usual fashion.

Smoke screen blocked them nicely, as one might expect.

Softspoken.2410:

Tempest Darqmane.4862:

Softspoken.2410:

I could just be reading it wrong, but it seems someone thinks black powder can block projectiles. It can’t. That’s a functionality unique to smoke screen.

Yes that would explain a lot.

Actually deleted that post because sudden doubts of “What if I’ve just missed it all this time???” combined with the wiki stating Enemy projectiles passing through smoke fields will miss their target.

Of course, as is no surprise when it comes to the fine details on the wiki: that is not actually true. Just tested it in Heart of the Mists: both the ranger and the thief were completely uninhibited by black powder’s smoke field, and shot me down in the usual fashion.

Smoke screen blocked them nicely, as one might expect.

My fault then – I made the mistake of trusting the wiki and seeing the similarities between smoke screen and black powder. Ignore my ranting.

Well, now you know I wasnt trying to be a jerk, lol. No hard feelings.

Tempest Darqmane.4862:

Well, now you know I wasnt trying to be a jerk, lol. No hard feelings.

None at all. I feel a bit foolish, but my incorrect info coming directly from the GW2 wiki itself helps a bit.

They should make BP a ground-target ability with 900 range.

In practice the reason why smoke screen “blocks” projectiles and black powder doesn’t.
Blackpowder is a rather small spot that’s filled with smoke. It blinds melee persons because they are IN the powder and get it in their eyes, thus can’t see anything
Ranged person just see a rather small place filled with smoke .. shoot in it = hit

Smoke screen on the other hand is a wide screen that no one can see through. You can be standing anywhere behind that screen. In real this would mean they have an X% to hit you. In game they just changed X to 0, assuming you are an awesome thief.

Ofc you can assume that a blind swinging enemy can still hit you if you don’t move, but those are details.

Gwalchgwn.1659:

In practice the reason why smoke screen “blocks” projectiles and black powder doesn’t.
Blackpowder is a rather small spot that’s filled with smoke. It blinds melee persons because they are IN the powder and get it in their eyes, thus can’t see anything
Ranged person just see a rather small place filled with smoke .. shoot in it = hit

Smoke screen on the other hand is a wide screen that no one can see through. You can be standing anywhere behind that screen. In real this would mean they have an X% to hit you. In game they just changed X to 0, assuming you are an awesome thief.

Ofc you can assume that a blind swinging enemy can still hit you if you don’t move, but those are details.

Its magic.

An idea I’ve posted other times that would make this skill useful in a P/P setup, as currently it’s only good for melee builds and that’s sad to say for a 6 initiative skill on a ranged weapon:

- BP gives a very short Stealth on use (not pulsing, only on use, and just for you), but its limits act like Shadow Refuge Limits, which means you will lose stealth if you exit the VERY small area (which means you won’t move from the spot without losing it, I’ll explain why later).

The reason for this is to gain access to your sneak attack on a P/P setup, this way a P/P build becomes far more versatile than the current 33333333333333333333333333333 until the key breaks, and to be able to either go Direct or Condition Damage, and adapt to your opponent (High Vit? Direct Damage, High Tough? Condition Damage) the same way than D/D can be speced for Direct Damage (Backstabs and Heart Seekers) or Condition Damage (Death Blossom over the mob) and be effective.

Now this shouldn’t affect the melee sets, as both need you to reach your opponent’s back, and you CAN’T EXIT the smoke field without losing Stealth, so you’re not reaching his back (unless he is tremendously stupid, in which case he deserves it and was going to die anyway lol), so the initiative cost shouldn’t go up as the efficency is the same for them.

Aditionally, unlike CnD which allows you for a lot of maneuveur and reposition, this one would clearly mark where you are as the smoke field is very very small, so even if it’s an unconditional Stealh, you’re clearly spoted and anyone could throw attacks at you.

Basically this would be to justify a 6 initiative cost when using P/P, and to give that set versatility and the ability to go Condition Damage (which sinergizes with the auto-attack unlike Direct Damage builds) for more versatility and less boring 333333333333, and you could blind at least 2 targets with those 6 initiative by using Sneak Attack on the second one as it’s guaranteed to combo.

Lokheit.7943:

An idea I’ve posted other times that would make this skill useful in a P/P setup, as currently it’s only good for melee builds and that’s sad to say for a 6 initiative skill on a ranged weapon:

- BP gives a very short Stealth on use (not pulsing, only on use, and just for you), but its limits act like Shadow Refuge Limits, which means you will lose stealth if you exit the VERY small area (which means you won’t move from the spot without losing it, I’ll explain why later).

The reason for this is to gain access to your sneak attack on a P/P setup, this way a P/P build becomes far more versatile than the current 33333333333333333333333333333 until the key breaks, and to be able to either go Direct or Condition Damage, and adapt to your opponent (High Vit? Direct Damage, High Tough? Condition Damage) the same way than D/D can be speced for Direct Damage (Backstabs and Heart Seekers) or Condition Damage (Death Blossom over the mob) and be effective.

Now this shouldn’t affect the melee sets, as both need you to reach your opponent’s back, and you CAN’T EXIT the smoke field without losing Stealth, so you’re not reaching his back (unless he is tremendously stupid, in which case he deserves it and was going to die anyway lol), so the initiative cost shouldn’t go up as the efficency is the same for them.

Aditionally, unlike CnD which allows you for a lot of maneuveur and reposition, this one would clearly mark where you are as the smoke field is very very small, so even if it’s an unconditional Stealh, you’re clearly spoted and anyone could throw attacks at you.

Basically this would be to justify a 6 initiative cost when using P/P, and to give that set versatility and the ability to go Condition Damage (which sinergizes with the auto-attack unlike Direct Damage builds) for more versatility and less boring 333333333333, and you could blind at least 2 targets with those 6 initiative by using Sneak Attack on the second one as it’s guaranteed to combo.

I like the idea on alot of points (giving P/P a way to access stealth, BP having a little more functionality for its extreme cost, almost non-existent damage, and .5 seconds cast time), but something tells me it will show itself to be a bit OP through playtesting.

You spec 0/0/30/20/20 – the current P/D setup, with this, would be powerful. It automatically reduces the cost of BP to 4 (because you absolutely will take Infusion of Shadow) as long as your only using it every 3 seconds. Automatic, no conditions attached stealth as long as you have 6 init to spend means automatic access to all the goodies in Shadow arts – condition removal and Regen IMO. You pop sneak attack immediately, each shot carrying a 20% chance to blind. Then you auto-attack until BP fades, dodge roll, and repeat. It’s not an unbeatable combo by any means, but your severely limiting melee (since you’re ranged, the small size of BP doesn’t limit you, just keep maneuvering so your enemy has to enter the radius to swing at you, and he’s being blinded once per second AND each of your shots carries a 20% chance to blind again). He probably also has to wade through your caltrops to get anywhere near you (since you’re running conditions, and it’d be stupid not to take caltrops in this build).

Against ranged you’re not quite as well equipped, but most of your shots are carrying a 20% chance to blind, and once you get the timing down, you’re accessing sneak every 3 seconds like clockwork.

You make some good points about the potential of my proposed change with all those traits, but really it wouldn’t take so much benefit from some of them . For example, being clearly limited to a tiny area you would like to use the stealth attack as soon as possible so you’re not nuked, which means you’re not getting the regen in stealth to proc (it could even be changed to a 0.5 seconds stealth instead of the border breaking it so it serves just for the Sneak Attack). You stil reduce the ini cost to 4 (like with CnD which allows for a lot of maneuvering and isn’t really so hard to land) and can get Power from it but you’re using trait points specifically for that and you’re getting zero “real stealth” for maneuvers.

The 1 vs. 5 videos of P/D wouldn’t be possible as with such a short stealth you’re burning initiative much faster (P/D gains some extra seconds between cycles and from the time the stay on it, which can be increased through patience). It’s unconditional Stealth, but while you get some of its benefits, you get zero of the actual stealth properties.

Probably this would need a lot of testing and tuning, but I would love to see something making me use every skill on P/P instead of 33333333. I love the looks of the set, but the playstyle gets boring and damaging for my #3 key

Aditionally, if Stealth Skills are one of our mechanics (one of those 4 mini-mechanics that try to sum to match other profession’s mechanics) it would make sense that every set would grant access to it (mesmers got phantasmas AND clones in every single weapon combination they have to access they’re profession mechanic). Maybe even make Infiltrator’s Arrow grant stealth if the “circle” touchs an opponent (instead of applying blind) so it really is an “infiltrator’s” skill, and change Infusion of Shadow to return 1 initiative instead of 2? P/D wouldn’t notice it as hard given how they can spend a lot of time stealthed to recover and P/P wouldn’t be able to use it as much.

So you want it buffed so you can just have it up constantly and have infinite blind? That’s what it does in melee range, and the counter to that is …range… >.>

Lokheit.7943:

You make some good points about the potential of my proposed change with all those traits, but really it wouldn’t take so much benefit from some of them . For example, being clearly limited to a tiny area you would like to use the stealth attack as soon as possible so you’re not nuked, which means you’re not getting the regen in stealth to proc (it could even be changed to a 0.5 seconds stealth instead of the border breaking it so it serves just for the Sneak Attack). You stil reduce the ini cost to 4 (like with CnD which allows for a lot of maneuvering and isn’t really so hard to land) and can get Power from it but you’re using trait points specifically for that and you’re getting zero “real stealth” for maneuvers.

The 1 vs. 5 videos of P/D wouldn’t be possible as with such a short stealth you’re burning initiative much faster (P/D gains some extra seconds between cycles and from the time the stay on it, which can be increased through patience). It’s unconditional Stealth, but while you get some of its benefits, you get zero of the actual stealth properties.

Probably this would need a lot of testing and tuning, but I would love to see something making me use every skill on P/P instead of 33333333. I love the looks of the set, but the playstyle gets boring and damaging for my #3 key

Aditionally, if Stealth Skills are one of our mechanics (one of those 4 mini-mechanics that try to sum to match other profession’s mechanics) it would make sense that every set would grant access to it (mesmers got phantasmas AND clones in every single weapon combination they have to access they’re profession mechanic). Maybe even make Infiltrator’s Arrow grant stealth if the “circle” touchs an opponent (instead of applying blind) so it really is an “infiltrator’s” skill, and change Infusion of Shadow to return 1 initiative instead of 2? P/D wouldn’t notice it as hard given how they can spend a lot of time stealthed to recover and P/P wouldn’t be able to use it as much.

I 100% agree that P/P needs stealth, thats why I like your suggestion. But P/D never relied on stealth for long – I would know, I was running 0/0/30/20/20 P/D when thieves universally thought Pistol mainhand was completely worthless. The only way to maximize damage with that spec is to sneak attack as close to every 3s as you can. CnD can be hard to dodge, but unconditional stealth is powerful. It’s powerful in D/P and you need 9 Init to pull it off (and generally do not have 15 points in trickery for the 15 init pool).

The regen i was talking about was 5s of regen on stealth, which with proper timing, you will get every time you BP – properly played, you’ll have perma regen. I don’t see how this would be more init intensive than P/D – they’ll be the same exact costs, in fact – skill 5 to stealth (at the same cost), 4 when needed, 2 and 3 gather dust. I’m talking from a PvP perspective, not WvW – those 1v5 situations died months ago in SPvP (but apparently still work in WvW for some reason).

Honestly, I’m not saying your idea would 100% be OP – I just see the potential for it. I Do believe P/P (and S/P additionally) either need some sort of access to stealth, or something that makes up for it – giving a class that is absolutely built around the ability to stealth 2 weaponsets out of 6 that have no access to stealth (i excluded Shbow since although it is a weapon without stealth, its designed well enough to not need it) and no abilities designed to compensate for it is just dumb.

Hummmm maybe there could be some way to make it conditional stealth as I agree that unconditional stealth is too much without a CD. Maybe making it a 2 fase “fake cooldown” skill like Cluster Bomb or Infiltrator’s Strike have (though I’m not sure of which 2 fases would work for this skill, maybe some sort of step1 field, step2 shooting over the powder to make it explode triggering the smoke field or something), or a conditional “if you’re hit while inside the field” or “if you’re not hit after X time”…

Probably anything to make it happen would need a lot of testing and reworking, it’s obviously not a simple task as it’s a skill that works well with some sets and horribly with others, but I would really love to have an alternative way to use P/P.

I like P/P aesthetics a lot, but I can’t stad playing it because of its low versatility and uncreativity based on 33333333333.