Guild Wars 2

Been noticing this a lot now where thieves can just spam boon steal with http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Larcenous_Strike

Now it requires 3+1 initiative to steal 2 boons and it’s not blockable, now because of the no cooldown broken intiative regeneration system in Guild Wars 2 they can spam boon steal in spvp matches.

Within seconds they strip you of 6+ boons and give 6+ boons to themselves and there is no counter to it other than DO NOT USE BOONS….

Now you have no idea when you will be coming up against boon stealing thieves but it is happening more and more often, there is no counter to it other than do not use any boons or give any boons to your team….which is not a counter…

It is negatively effecting team work also, as was suggested by player feedback that was not listened to by anet how your actually hurting the team by giving boons to them or hurting yourself by using any boons what so ever…so you become completely useless to your team and also actually hurt your own team by helping the enemy through boon stealing…

It needs some serious looking at and balancing because at the moment the balance is completely out of whack with it being spammable and with no counter towards it…

Angry thieves mob incoming…..

Arheundel.6451:

Angry thieves mob incoming…..

I been discussing it with some of the thieves in tourny and they were saying the same thing and agreeing with me lol

They were the one’s who actually gave me some of this feedback after playing with them and trying out different boon stealing builds.

So you want a counter to counter the counter against bunkers? For the most part these thieves are still squishy they die just like anything else just in a less stealth like manner. Bunkers on the other hand can’t kill anything so…yeah countered.

f you want a sort of boon dealing machine as opposed to a boon stealing machine look to the mesmer maybe O.o? Chaos storm as well as full runes of lyssa with signet of inspiration to cover for you? A little nullfield play to quell the thief and his stolen boons? Maybe a arcane thievery > signet of inspiration combo to reapply those stolen boons? Trait for boon removal on mind wreck to eliminate the boons on the thief completely? This could quite possibly be a reason to run a double mesmer comp maybe? Mesmers peels for the guard with moa and such? Guardian feels like a warrior now? O.o

The most realistic strat you would probably use out of all that is the chaos storm on top of guardian to get some breathing room as well as a short application of short lived boons that are essentially useless in terms of stealing. Null field could find some play maybe?

But yeah Aoe/Dps/Focus fire is the counter to counter the counter against bunkers. That or buff mesmers boon stealing/elimination/application abilities even moreso.

If they wanted to address the bunker problem, they would make Larcenous steal only protection, regeneration and vigor.

Right now it’s on the OP side, because it steals 2 boons (ANY boons) and is totally spammable, hurting classes with long-uptime long-recharge boons the most (e.g. Warrior’s signet of rage). Bunkers, which generally have boon spam on low recharge, are affected by sword Thieves the least.

The only way to fix this garbage is to make it rip (not steal, just rip) a single boon, and only if it’s protection, regeneration or vigor. If it’s not addressed that way, a far worse nerf is incoming.

Benji.9203:

So you want a counter to counter the counter against bunkers? For the most part these thieves are still squishy they die just like anything else just in a less stealth like manner. Bunkers on the other hand can’t kill anything so…yeah countered.

f you want a sort of boon dealing machine as opposed to a boon stealing machine look to the mesmer maybe O.o? Chaos storm as well as full runes of lyssa with signet of inspiration to cover for you? A little nullfield play to quell the thief and his stolen boons? Maybe a arcane thievery > signet of inspiration combo to reapply those stolen boons? Trait for boon removal on mind wreck to eliminate the boons on the thief completely? This could quite possibly be a reason to run a double mesmer comp maybe? Mesmers peels for the guard with moa and such? Guardian feels like a warrior now? O.o

The most realistic strat you would probably use out of all that is the chaos storm on top of guardian to get some breathing room as well as a short application of short lived boons that are essentially useless in terms of stealing. Null field could find some play maybe?

But yeah Aoe/Dps/Focus fire is the counter to counter the counter against bunkers. That or buff mesmers boon stealing/elimination/application abilities even moreso.

Being able to steal boons and spam steal boons means the thieves survivability and damage goes way up from all the boons they steal on top of stealth….

The spamming of it is the balance issue because of quick regen on initiative they can just spam it constantly with no counter to it. Then add how it negatively effects team work and team play because your actually hurting your own team now because of boons.

Demosthene.2195:

If they wanted to address the bunker problem, they would make Larcenous steal only protection, regeneration and vigor.

Right now it’s on the OP side, because it steals 2 boons (ANY boons) and is totally spammable, hurting classes with long-uptime long-recharge boons the most (e.g. Warrior’s signet of rage). Bunkers, which generally have boon spam on low recharge, are affected by sword Thieves the least.

The only way to fix this garbage is to make it rip (not steal, just rip) a single boon, and only if it’s protection, regeneration or vigor. If it’s not addressed that way, a far worse nerf is incoming.

Exactly ^^.

S/D thief is so HOT right now.. Too bad, I can not get a Girsp of it.. Lame. However, I am all for LS rip only, not steal… Make the skill cost more innititive won’t do either, just make people stay away from the skill nor reduce the dams by half is just a lazy balancing attempt.

Demosthene.2195:

The only way to fix this garbage is to make it rip (not steal, just rip) a single boon

But that’s exactly what it did before and went underutilized? FS had issues with connecting both hits being hard and the reward for doing so being less than it should’ve been. Dropping it to one boon removal puts it right where it was before with the small difference in usability but overall reward being the same. No thanks jeff.

I agree OP, but inb4 other thieves.

@ TRON

So you feel like a warrior O.o?

Keep complaining about thieves and disregard Eles and Mesmers.

What!? these are unblockables?!

Signet of I Raaaaaaaaaaage quit, why give us bs signet of mighttttt

I started a topic in the thief forum about the new LS: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Flanking-Strike-was-definitely-overbuffed/

My suggestion is either increase the initiative cost, so making the skill not spammable anymore, or reduce the amount of boons stolen to 1.

-Initiative cost increase
- 1 Boon removed instead of 2
-Change the pathing so it stays reliable (unlike the old version) but isn’t able to track really far.
-Only allow LS to be useable if FS actually hitted.

That would be my suggestion for that skill, either one or a mix of several of those. It’s honestly currently far to strong. I hate using it on my thief atm, it just feels far too cheap.

I can already feel sb choking gas will also require a nerf if the weakness change really make it through.

dodging is gooooooood

S/D thieves are really not as OP as you think…you just need to play against them enough to learn how to counter them…the S/D thieves that are built for anything other than annoyance would mean they are squishy, so just treat them like any other thief. The ones that aren’t squishy are usually just to troll and steal boons, they don’t really kill.

Batmang.5421:

dodging is gooooooood

Two dodges… FS+LS however can be spammed at least 3 times before ini is depleted. Add in that thieves get some sweet traits that help with massive ini regen it is almost perma spammable.

Puru.4217:

-Initiative cost increase
- 1 Boon removed instead of 2
-Change the pathing so it stays reliable (unlike the old version) but isn’t able to track really far.
-Only allow LS to be useable if FS actually hitted.

That would be my suggestion for that skill, either one or a mix of several of those. It’s honestly currently far to strong. I hate using it on my thief atm, it just feels far too cheap.

I can already feel sb choking gas will also require a nerf if the weakness change really make it through.

Totally agree except keep ini cost the same.

Oh man, another thief whine thread. Let me guess, you were in hotjoin and a thief stole your boons. You didn’t think how to actually counter it but instead came here and made this post hoping that thieves will get nerfed yet once again. Kudos for your originality!

Alright, however make Lac strike free, lower the cost of flanking strike to 2.

Anet invited such issues because they gave such an ability to a class which doesnt have cooldowns.

And i was coming here to say S/D thieves are still in bad shape. LOL.

Mrbig.8019:

And i was coming here to say S/D thieves are still in bad shape. LOL.

Yes D/p Thiefs are still better with their frequent backstabs,stealths,regeneration, conditions stripping, and blinding field. I think initiative gain is more the issue than the skill 3 for s/d because high initiative gain leads to spamming.

“Oh no, my extremely strong HGH might-stacking build doesn’t win within .0912349781693847 seconds any more! It’s dem thieves- they deserve a nerf!”

I am going to say this as nice as possible, and I not trying to be mean here, so don’t take this personally, but anyone complaining about Flanking Strike/Larcenous Strike really need to learn how to dodge, cc, and/or create a gap between them and a thief.

If you do any of those 3 things (Dodge, CC, Create a Gap) you can negate this skill with ease. Even just 2 of these things can easily negate this skill. I know because I have done this as well as been the victim of it. I have played all classes in sPvP (long enough to get a handle of them), and I have 3 80s (Mesmer, Guard and a Thief).

Just a bit of advice:
- The skill is easily telegraphed by the obvious rolling animation, and the thieves that spam this usually use larcenous strike right away after flanking strike, so just dodge away near the end of their roll.
- The range on Larcenous strike is very small, so to actually land with it you have to be in the closest melee range, so you can try to stay just out of reach, or leap away
- And lastly, use CC on a thief – snare them, chill them, knock them down, knock them back, stun them, daze them. Most thieves run 1 stun breaker, so if you can chain cc them it really screws them over. (This goes for most thief builds). For the rare thief that runs 2 stun breakers, just spread out your cc and time your dodges.

People really seem to underestimate the power of dodge in this game. Learn to dodge at proper times and you will counter a lot of powerful attacks from most classes in this game. Endurance management goes with this as well. Keep track of your endurance and you will make dodging work even better for you.

Momekic.8603:

I am going to say this as nice as possible, and I not trying to be mean here, so don’t take this personally, but anyone complaining about Flanking Strike/Larcenous Strike really need to learn how to dodge, cc, and/or create a gap between them and a thief.

If you do any of those 3 things (Dodge, CC, Create a Gap) you can negate this skill with ease. Even just 2 of these things can easily negate this skill. I know because I have done this as well as been the victim of it. I have played all classes in sPvP (long enough to get a handle of them), and I have 3 80s (Mesmer, Guard and a Thief).

Just a bit of advice:
- The skill is easily telegraphed by the obvious rolling animation, and the thieves that spam this usually use larcenous strike right away after flanking strike, so just dodge away near the end of their roll.
- The range on Larcenous strike is very small, so to actually land with it you have to be in the closest melee range, so you can try to stay just out of reach, or leap away
- And lastly, use CC on a thief – snare them, chill them, knock them down, knock them back, stun them, daze them. Most thieves run 1 stun breaker, so if you can chain cc them it really screws them over. (This goes for most thief builds). For the rare thief that runs 2 stun breakers, just spread out your cc and time your dodges.

People really seem to underestimate the power of dodge in this game. Learn to dodge at proper times and you will counter a lot of powerful attacks from most classes in this game. Endurance management goes with this as well. Keep track of your endurance and you will make dodging work even better for you.

This is true. After dueling on games like vindictus I have gotten used to using a fast reaction time for the win. Sigil of energy or rune of the adventurer will give you more dodging options if you need them.

is this what you’re talkin about? try this gameplay if u can do it very well. yes this flanking s/d is OP if u played it perfectly. just like guardians, mesmers, engineers, Eles. if u played em so kitten perfect less mistake your OP! everyone can be OP if u played it Perfectly! so don’t ask for another thief nerf.. we’ve been receiving tons of nerfs in the past few months.

Coloxeus.3480:

is this what you’re talkin about? try this gameplay if u can do it very well. yes this flanking s/d is OP if u played it perfectly. just like guardians, mesmers, engineers, Eles. if u played em so kitten perfect less mistake your OP! everyone can be OP if u played it Perfectly! so don’t ask for another thief nerf.. we’ve been receiving tons of nerfs in the past few months.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LVXxcErhHo

Although you play very well, your opponents seem to be very unaware…

We’ve gotten our share of nerfs. Stop complaining please

Larcenous strike should put a debuff on the target so they can’t gain new boons for 4 seconds. Then we wouldn’t need to spam it so often.

But you are right about one thing… the only legitimate complaint about thieves is how initiative regen is not balanced.

TRON.1085:

Within seconds they strip you of 6+ boons and give 6+ boons to themselves and there is no counter to it other than DO NOT USE BOONS.

You know, you could try…moving.

I still run triple guardian shout build in wvw against thieves when I roam/duel. Works fine for me. Beaten enough good S/D thieves with it too.

Atherakhia.4086:

Larcenous strike should put a debuff on the target so they can’t gain new boons for 4 seconds. Then we wouldn’t need to spam it so often.

But you are right about one thing… the only legitimate complaint about thieves is how initiative regen is not balanced.

No.

Calculate the numbers for how much initiative we gain per second, and how much that benefits us, then compare with what other classes gain per second on their skills. Then tell me that it “isn’t balanced”.

You are going to sit here and complain about flanking strike??? I sure hope you do not play d/p which is the most OP thief weapon set

Arganthium.5638:

Atherakhia.4086:

Larcenous strike should put a debuff on the target so they can’t gain new boons for 4 seconds. Then we wouldn’t need to spam it so often.

But you are right about one thing… the only legitimate complaint about thieves is how initiative regen is not balanced.

No.

Calculate the numbers for how much initiative we gain per second, and how much that benefits us, then compare with what other classes gain per second on their skills. Then tell me that it “isn’t balanced”.

The amount of time a thief can be stealthed and access to stealth isn’t balanced. Doesn’t mean the class has the tools to survive if it’s changed, because it doesn’t. But stealth in this game has got to be the dumbest implementation of it I’ve ever seen.

I totally agree.
I mean, thieves are so obviously broken, right?
That’s why when I’m forming a TPvP team, the very first thing I do is secure a thief. Sometimes two or three! Cant win a tourney match without a thief, like they say. And since they’re so obviously OP, the rewards just get higher and higher the more you take!

Atherakhia.4086:

Arganthium.5638:

Atherakhia.4086:

Larcenous strike should put a debuff on the target so they can’t gain new boons for 4 seconds. Then we wouldn’t need to spam it so often.

But you are right about one thing… the only legitimate complaint about thieves is how initiative regen is not balanced.

No.

Calculate the numbers for how much initiative we gain per second, and how much that benefits us, then compare with what other classes gain per second on their skills. Then tell me that it “isn’t balanced”.

The amount of time a thief can be stealthed and access to stealth isn’t balanced. Doesn’t mean the class has the tools to survive if it’s changed, because it doesn’t. But stealth in this game has got to be the dumbest implementation of it I’ve ever seen.

Just stop. Your post was about initiative regeneration, not stealth, and that’s what I replied to. Furthermore, stealth is almost detrimental to teams in PvP, and is easily countered in both WvW and PvP by practically just swinging your sword around and spamming AoE while running in random directions. It works.

Arganthium.5638:

Atherakhia.4086:

Arganthium.5638:

Atherakhia.4086:

Larcenous strike should put a debuff on the target so they can’t gain new boons for 4 seconds. Then we wouldn’t need to spam it so often.

But you are right about one thing… the only legitimate complaint about thieves is how initiative regen is not balanced.

No.

Calculate the numbers for how much initiative we gain per second, and how much that benefits us, then compare with what other classes gain per second on their skills. Then tell me that it “isn’t balanced”.

The amount of time a thief can be stealthed and access to stealth isn’t balanced. Doesn’t mean the class has the tools to survive if it’s changed, because it doesn’t. But stealth in this game has got to be the dumbest implementation of it I’ve ever seen.

Just stop. Your post was about initiative regeneration, not stealth, and that’s what I replied to. Furthermore, stealth is almost detrimental to teams in PvP, and is easily countered in both WvW and PvP by practically just swinging your sword around and spamming AoE while running in random directions. It works.

The problem with stealth is the initiative regen you [censored].

Atherakhia.4086:

Arganthium.5638:

Atherakhia.4086:

Arganthium.5638:

Atherakhia.4086:

Larcenous strike should put a debuff on the target so they can’t gain new boons for 4 seconds. Then we wouldn’t need to spam it so often.

But you are right about one thing… the only legitimate complaint about thieves is how initiative regen is not balanced.

No.

Calculate the numbers for how much initiative we gain per second, and how much that benefits us, then compare with what other classes gain per second on their skills. Then tell me that it “isn’t balanced”.

The amount of time a thief can be stealthed and access to stealth isn’t balanced. Doesn’t mean the class has the tools to survive if it’s changed, because it doesn’t. But stealth in this game has got to be the dumbest implementation of it I’ve ever seen.

Just stop. Your post was about initiative regeneration, not stealth, and that’s what I replied to. Furthermore, stealth is almost detrimental to teams in PvP, and is easily countered in both WvW and PvP by practically just swinging your sword around and spamming AoE while running in random directions. It works.

The problem with stealth is the initiative regen you [censored].

So…you’re kittening about patience? The SA trait no thief takes because it’s kittening awful, pointless, and clearly inferior to any player who’s ever spent an hour on a thief in PvP?

I mean…that’s the only thing you could possibly be kittening about, because otherwise you’re kittening about the initiative system in general, which is an old, tired, debunked argument to begin with.

evilapprentice.6379:

Atherakhia.4086:

Arganthium.5638:

Atherakhia.4086:

Arganthium.5638:

Atherakhia.4086:

Larcenous strike should put a debuff on the target so they can’t gain new boons for 4 seconds. Then we wouldn’t need to spam it so often.

But you are right about one thing… the only legitimate complaint about thieves is how initiative regen is not balanced.

No.

Calculate the numbers for how much initiative we gain per second, and how much that benefits us, then compare with what other classes gain per second on their skills. Then tell me that it “isn’t balanced”.

The amount of time a thief can be stealthed and access to stealth isn’t balanced. Doesn’t mean the class has the tools to survive if it’s changed, because it doesn’t. But stealth in this game has got to be the dumbest implementation of it I’ve ever seen.

Just stop. Your post was about initiative regeneration, not stealth, and that’s what I replied to. Furthermore, stealth is almost detrimental to teams in PvP, and is easily countered in both WvW and PvP by practically just swinging your sword around and spamming AoE while running in random directions. It works.

The problem with stealth is the initiative regen you [censored].

So…you’re kittening about patience? The SA trait no thief takes because it’s kittening awful, pointless, and clearly inferior to any player who’s ever spent an hour on a thief in PvP?

I mean…that’s the only thing you could possibly be kittening about, because otherwise you’re kittening about the initiative system in general, which is an old, tired, debunked argument to begin with.

Debunked? Since when… it’s plain as day that the initiative system isn’t designed well and the fact that there are a dozen different skills and traits to regen initiative is the main issue behind the whole class. The simple fact is there probably shouldn’t be any.

TRON.1085:

Been noticing this a lot now where thieves can just spam boon steal with http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Larcenous_Strike

Now it requires 3+1 initiative to steal 2 boons and it’s not blockable, now because of the no cooldown broken intiative regeneration system in Guild Wars 2 they can spam boon steal in spvp matches.

Within seconds they strip you of 6+ boons and give 6+ boons to themselves and there is no counter to it other than DO NOT USE BOONS….

Now you have no idea when you will be coming up against boon stealing thieves but it is happening more and more often, there is no counter to it other than do not use any boons or give any boons to your team….which is not a counter…

It is negatively effecting team work also, as was suggested by player feedback that was not listened to by anet how your actually hurting the team by giving boons to them or hurting yourself by using any boons what so ever…so you become completely useless to your team and also actually hurt your own team by helping the enemy through boon stealing…

It needs some serious looking at and balancing because at the moment the balance is completely out of whack with it being spammable and with no counter towards it…

i agree with the OP here, thieves need more nerfs !
next week we will complain about thief mobility

i think both teams can utilize the same builds.

so cant your own S/D thief steal the boons back?

or is this just anti thief?

Atherakhia.4086:

evilapprentice.6379:

Atherakhia.4086:

Arganthium.5638:

Atherakhia.4086:

Arganthium.5638:

Atherakhia.4086:

Larcenous strike should put a debuff on the target so they can’t gain new boons for 4 seconds. Then we wouldn’t need to spam it so often.

But you are right about one thing… the only legitimate complaint about thieves is how initiative regen is not balanced.

No.

Calculate the numbers for how much initiative we gain per second, and how much that benefits us, then compare with what other classes gain per second on their skills. Then tell me that it “isn’t balanced”.

The amount of time a thief can be stealthed and access to stealth isn’t balanced. Doesn’t mean the class has the tools to survive if it’s changed, because it doesn’t. But stealth in this game has got to be the dumbest implementation of it I’ve ever seen.

Just stop. Your post was about initiative regeneration, not stealth, and that’s what I replied to. Furthermore, stealth is almost detrimental to teams in PvP, and is easily countered in both WvW and PvP by practically just swinging your sword around and spamming AoE while running in random directions. It works.

The problem with stealth is the initiative regen you [censored].

So…you’re kittening about patience? The SA trait no thief takes because it’s kittening awful, pointless, and clearly inferior to any player who’s ever spent an hour on a thief in PvP?

I mean…that’s the only thing you could possibly be kittening about, because otherwise you’re kittening about the initiative system in general, which is an old, tired, debunked argument to begin with.

Debunked? Since when… it’s plain as day that the initiative system isn’t designed well and the fact that there are a dozen different skills and traits to regen initiative is the main issue behind the whole class. The simple fact is there probably shouldn’t be any.

Real quick!
Since you’re obviously intimately experienced with thief mechanics!
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides KB/KD/Blowout
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides daze over .5s
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides fear
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides Daze over .5
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides immobilize over 1s.

That list looking a little light? I wonder why?.

Thieves can steal!? The more you know….

s/d is fine :P is only great against bunker guards / bunker eles…u know the type of builds that rely almost soley on boons and such. if u want to nerf LS then you are asking for a counter to the thieves counter to bunker. thieves were giving this bc they have 0 defensinve boons…0blocks…0invulnerability…. and are squishy as heck. they needed a way to play agiainst these builds and also a reason to not play stealth. i notice people complain about thieves no matter what happens….. shadowstep… stealth….. FS/LS….. BS…CND…. its always just another FOTM/FOTW. if i go all condition dmg and run into an anti condition biuld…. i cant expect to go on a forum and ask for a nerf….. the only time something really needs a nerf is when a build is in the top tier of dmg/defense/mobility and has no real drawback or risk. the old ele build before the 2 nerfs was like that…and guardian bunker was kinda like that in spvp. thief 7-8 months ago was like that too. u can still hit a thief whil he is using FS/LS… its only a .5 sec evade on a 1 sec or slightly more animation. if it was a 3/4 or 1 sec evade i would totally agree with you. aoe…..burst…..CC… is all bad for this type of thief…..

ps…..a thief can spam any one skill until he is out of initiative….that comes at a cost though. he loses his defense and access to other skills. so saying that a thief spams anything just shouldnt be in the argument. i understand the effect adds up…but then so does any skill.

evilapprentice.6379:

Atherakhia.4086:

evilapprentice.6379:

Atherakhia.4086:

Arganthium.5638:

Atherakhia.4086:

Arganthium.5638:

Atherakhia.4086:

Larcenous strike should put a debuff on the target so they can’t gain new boons for 4 seconds. Then we wouldn’t need to spam it so often.

But you are right about one thing… the only legitimate complaint about thieves is how initiative regen is not balanced.

No.

Calculate the numbers for how much initiative we gain per second, and how much that benefits us, then compare with what other classes gain per second on their skills. Then tell me that it “isn’t balanced”.

The amount of time a thief can be stealthed and access to stealth isn’t balanced. Doesn’t mean the class has the tools to survive if it’s changed, because it doesn’t. But stealth in this game has got to be the dumbest implementation of it I’ve ever seen.

Just stop. Your post was about initiative regeneration, not stealth, and that’s what I replied to. Furthermore, stealth is almost detrimental to teams in PvP, and is easily countered in both WvW and PvP by practically just swinging your sword around and spamming AoE while running in random directions. It works.

The problem with stealth is the initiative regen you [censored].

So…you’re kittening about patience? The SA trait no thief takes because it’s kittening awful, pointless, and clearly inferior to any player who’s ever spent an hour on a thief in PvP?

I mean…that’s the only thing you could possibly be kittening about, because otherwise you’re kittening about the initiative system in general, which is an old, tired, debunked argument to begin with.

Debunked? Since when… it’s plain as day that the initiative system isn’t designed well and the fact that there are a dozen different skills and traits to regen initiative is the main issue behind the whole class. The simple fact is there probably shouldn’t be any.

Real quick!
Since you’re obviously intimately experienced with thief mechanics!
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides KB/KD/Blowout
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides daze over .5s
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides fear
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides Daze over .5
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides immobilize over 1s.

That list looking a little light? I wonder why?.

we only have 1 daze skill thats over .5 (tac strike) we can sometimes steal a fear…..we dont have any CLASS skills that immob that long…maybe surprise shot is 1 sec or maybe sligbhtly more…. we have dont have any blow outs or etc…closest we have really is a KD trap which is obviously garbage :P

Travlane.5948:

evilapprentice.6379:

Atherakhia.4086:

evilapprentice.6379:

Atherakhia.4086:

Arganthium.5638:

Atherakhia.4086:

Arganthium.5638:

Atherakhia.4086:

Larcenous strike should put a debuff on the target so they can’t gain new boons for 4 seconds. Then we wouldn’t need to spam it so often.

But you are right about one thing… the only legitimate complaint about thieves is how initiative regen is not balanced.

No.

Calculate the numbers for how much initiative we gain per second, and how much that benefits us, then compare with what other classes gain per second on their skills. Then tell me that it “isn’t balanced”.

The amount of time a thief can be stealthed and access to stealth isn’t balanced. Doesn’t mean the class has the tools to survive if it’s changed, because it doesn’t. But stealth in this game has got to be the dumbest implementation of it I’ve ever seen.

Just stop. Your post was about initiative regeneration, not stealth, and that’s what I replied to. Furthermore, stealth is almost detrimental to teams in PvP, and is easily countered in both WvW and PvP by practically just swinging your sword around and spamming AoE while running in random directions. It works.

The problem with stealth is the initiative regen you [censored].

So…you’re kittening about patience? The SA trait no thief takes because it’s kittening awful, pointless, and clearly inferior to any player who’s ever spent an hour on a thief in PvP?

I mean…that’s the only thing you could possibly be kittening about, because otherwise you’re kittening about the initiative system in general, which is an old, tired, debunked argument to begin with.

Debunked? Since when… it’s plain as day that the initiative system isn’t designed well and the fact that there are a dozen different skills and traits to regen initiative is the main issue behind the whole class. The simple fact is there probably shouldn’t be any.

Real quick!
Since you’re obviously intimately experienced with thief mechanics!
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides KB/KD/Blowout
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides daze over .5s
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides fear
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides Daze over .5
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides immobilize over 1s.

That list looking a little light? I wonder why?.

we only have 1 daze skill thats over .5 (tac strike) we can sometimes steal a fear…..we dont have any CLASS skills that immob that long…maybe surprise shot is 1 sec or maybe sligbhtly more…. we have dont have any blow outs or etc…closest we have really is a KD trap which is obviously garbage :P

One of those lines was supposed to be about stun, not daze (the dangers of posting drunk here folks).
But yes, my overall point was this –
Everyone likes to cry about how initiative works, but most non-thieves don’t ever take into account its limitations. Spammable skills don’t get good effects – Thieves don’t have a single weaponskill that has KD/KB/Blowout, our weaponskills don’t grant boons, Our weaponskill access to Immob/stun/Daze is limited and extremely short duration.

I’m not complaining about those things (I consider them fair since you know, the skill is spammable), but you can’t cry about the initiative system without taking those factors into consideration (which obviously most thief haters don’t)

Since other posters seem unfamiliar with how intiative works in general, let me also offer the standard point (you know, the one anyone who’s played the game for a week understands).

When non-thief class X takes 2 separate weaponsets, each weapon has distinct, individual cool downs. For a thief, it does not matter what your other weaponset is – Initiative is shared. If I take X/X – SB, and I blow all my Init on X/X, switching to SB gains me nothing. I still have no init for which to access SB skills.

I agree that asking for nerfs becomes ridiculous… LS is REALLY easy to dodge or just go out of the way of. And thieves are very VERY easy to control with stuns, blows or dazes.
And regarding the initiative system and spamming LS: I mean, honestly…! After this genius of a thief, that spams LS has stolen 6 boons, he is left with no initiative at all! He becomes defenseless and his offensive skills suffer a lot as well.
I would always prefer a pool of initiative over a bunch of boons. 1 LS and stealing 2 boons would do the job for me, unless my opponent has protection on him…

People always organise their builds to counter certain scenarios, but when THEIR BUILD gets countered by another one (especially by that of a thief)… oooooh, then it’s on! Accept the fact that you cant win every 1vs1 that you seek out!

evilapprentice.6379:

Real quick!
Since you’re obviously intimately experienced with thief mechanics!
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides KB/KD/Blowout
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides daze over .5s
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides fear
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides Daze over .5
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides immobilize over 1s.

That list looking a little light? I wonder why?.

Because having easy to access CC on initiative would be incredibly broken, I just imagine all thieves running CC spamming with high initiative regen builds… Then I immagine people complaining about that and Thieves answering “Just dodge it” (realistic, don’t you say?).

Obviously that doesn’t mean that you have no access to CC at all.

- When you steal from Guardian, you get 4s of Daze. No other profession in this game have such an high daze duration.
- When you steal from Necro you have up to 3s fear.
- You have Tactical Strike from Sword that Daze for 1.5s, which isn’t that bad considering that it can be potentially used every kitten .
- You have 4s of immobilization from Devourer Venom.
- You have 1.5s of stun from Basilisk Venom

Not to say how crucial can be a CC in the right time considering how much damage a Thief is capable to do in a couple of seconds.

Anyway, I don’t know why you posted that list as an answer to what Atherakhia said.
Initiative system encourage mindless spamming and unskilled play as it is now.
Giving too much utility on a single skill and on low initiative cost of course will encourage everyone to use that skill over and over and to use the whole initiative pool on that skill. FS has everything in it. Boon stealing, evade and damage. Why everyone would bother to use any other skill in the bar if everything is on FS?
This is the design flaws people are talking about.

I also don’t understand people saying that Thieves are easy to control through CC, specially S/D thieves. They have a stunbreaker on initiative, plus they have the most reliable set of stunbreakers in the game (somebody said Shadowstep with 2 stunbreaks in 50s?). I think Thief is the profession which suffer from stuns the least.

sorrow.2364:

evilapprentice.6379:

Real quick!
Since you’re obviously intimately experienced with thief mechanics!
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides KB/KD/Blowout
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides daze over .5s
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides fear
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides Daze over .5
- Name every single thief weapon skill that provides immobilize over 1s.

That list looking a little light? I wonder why?.

Thief is the profession which suffer from stuns the least.

Thief cannot take much damage, it’s fair

did you ever seen a thief have 25k HP?

TsukiNoEi.4570:

Thief cannot take much damage, it’s fair

did you ever seen a thief have 25k HP?

In fact it is fine to me. I’ve never said I want it addressed or it should be toned down. It is a part of the Thief design to be slippery and hard to catch and pin down.

I’ve just pointed out that saying that thieves are easy to control is a lie.

sorrow.2364:

I’ve just pointed out that saying that thieves are easy to control is a lie.

Mostly this. Every time (every time) someone says “oh just CC the Thief” I laugh my kitten off.