Guild Wars 2

I would love to see ranged DPS be close to on par with our melee dps. Especially with the nerfs to dodge and mobility. Its almost like they want us to facetank dmg.

i dont think it needs bleeds for rapid fire. cant cluster bomb “carry the weight” for that one?

it needs 20% vulnerability for 10 seconds added onto it allong with 2s immob….

why 20% and why 10s? bc SB has 0 access to stealth and should reward the utility use to get it

i want my 1200 Range back.

been playing mulitple classes lately, and thief is just meh… thief gets 1% vul. I hoped on my warrior and he gets 10% vul. lmfao

Shortbow is generally fine and doesn’t need breaking. With the latest initiative change you can pretty much spam the cluster bombs all the time. If you want higher single target dps then use a single target dps weapon!

Stooperdale.3560:

Shortbow is generally fine and doesn’t need breaking. With the latest initiative change you can pretty much spam the cluster bombs all the time. If you want higher single target dps then use a single target dps weapon!

^

I would say shortbow is the best designed weapon in the game. Don’t fix what’s not broken.

Rarnark.5623:

Stooperdale.3560:

Shortbow is generally fine and doesn’t need breaking. With the latest initiative change you can pretty much spam the cluster bombs all the time. If you want higher single target dps then use a single target dps weapon!

^

I would say shortbow is the best designed weapon in the game. Don’t fix what’s not broken.

Not fixing it… but making it a viable Main weapon instead of just a utility or Oh Kittens Run away weapon.

When was the last time you saw (or ever) “Please rate my Shortbow build?”

Shortbow is not viable for mainhand because its designed around AoE dmg. IMO its one of the best AoE weapons of all classes. But thats the problem in itself, its not designed to be good single target DPS which is how most fights are. If anything i think shortbow is fine the way it is; excellent AoE’s and utility and pistol should be buffed for decent single target DPS.

Grebcol.5984:

i want my 1200 Range back.

Yeah, the limited range is the biggest issue. You can barely shoot down a wall with 900 range, let alone place an AoE.

1200 range and a faster projectile for Clusterbomb is all I really ask.

Honestly, Shortbow is fine. I use mine 90% of the time in tPvP and only swap to D/P to burst. The damage and utility of the set is perfect, the only set that rivals it is D/P.

“Also I just want to add… about the projectile speed. If you run forward and shot a cluster bomb as far ahead of you as you can, its SO SLOW that your character physically runs past the blast by the time it hits the ground.”

Great for kiting, seriously.

Shortbow has only two flaws; Only one trait that directly affects it and it’s also a very weak trait nobody ever takes and the Surprise shot is rather lackluster since the whole weapon set doesn’t even have access to stealth.

Two things need to be done to the set to make it better imo which are; Surprise shot needs to change to Focused shot that does a ton of damage much like a backstab, this would really make the shortbow very versatile and isn’t really OP since they have limited stealth access.

Secondly we need a trait that increases some range on some skills, like the shortbow #5 and maybe #2, because #2 is now only used at point blank range these days if at all, I say #5 because the current range is very quirky when you run and use it, the time the shot is fired you have already ran a few steps and the shadowstep gap is shortened, so we don’t actually get a 900range shadowstep, but it works fine when you use it while stationary.

Shortbow used to be OP and used as a primary weapon (only swapping for a backstab burst) before trick shot nerf. It was able to put out waaay too much pressure, it is already a pain for glassy specs to deal with even missing shots, esp. using 3 spam, and the poison is absurd.. prly needs initiative increase since the last patch.

Surprise shot is fine. I’ve been using SB for 1year+. The thief has fairly easy access to stealth… Honestly Surprise shot is a great offensive tool used properly, both solo play or team assistance. Not having to rely on Utilities with long cooldowns to generate a ‘root’ effect really is great, and repeatable, way more useful IMO then yet another ‘big-damage-only’ ability, thief has plenty of those.

I do agree tho that the SB in general might lack some punch/lack some love -especially since the range nerf-, but slight adjustments could go a long way to make it more popular/viable. The way most SB skills work is original and versatile, so instead of removing or completely replacing a mechanic/skill trying to ‘fix’ the SB, adjusting arrow-travel-speed/values/effects could indeed go a long way.

Also in general for Game-Balance, I prefer progressive small adjustments than when they go overboard with boosts, just to nerf it back later.

Some of the best thieves know how to use their shortbow for more than just pressing 5. Steal + clusterbomb is strong. Choking gas is just butter on a downed target or anyone else who has insane health regen. One of the most critical aspects of fighting a warrior is to apply a constant source of poison, when he is not in his kitten mode berserker stance, by making sure you interrupt his combustive shot and signet of rage (if it already hasnt been popped) and avoiding his other burst skill.

Immobilization on surprise attack is really strong. For example allows for a free clusterbomb shot on a thief who just used blackpowder. Its main purpose, at least for me, is for a free steal item hit (basilisk venom does this too when applied to a target via backstab – lets face it, nearly all the times you should be using bassi is when invis due to the long cast time and the reveal below your health bar). Simply hit the target with immob, port to him with preferably shadow shot, but infiltrator arrow can be used as well to blind the target, then use your steal item (just the ele steal alone hits for about 4.5k – not to mention ridiculously good the guardian and necro steal). Finally, with the added initiative gain, 3 spam gives you an extra disabling shot use.

Shortbow is a great team support weapon and it’s fine.

Rafahil.2857:

[…]the whole weapon set doesn’t even have access to stealth.

The blast finisher on 2 can be used with blackpowder. Not used often, but just saying. Most of the time, Im in shortbow when Im low on health. I also bring hide in shadows.

Rarnark.5623:

Stooperdale.3560:

Shortbow is generally fine and doesn’t need breaking. With the latest initiative change you can pretty much spam the cluster bombs all the time. If you want higher single target dps then use a single target dps weapon!

^

I would say shortbow is the best designed weapon in the game. Don’t fix what’s not broken.

if u dont wanna change ….it …drasticall…there still needs to be 3 fixes no matter what

1) increase speed of auto attack
2) -1 Initiative on Infil Arrow or move to 1200 range or add 1/4 aoe daze
3) do something real with surprise shot…it sux.

Chicago Jack.5647:

Some of the best thieves know how to use their shortbow for more than just pressing 5. Steal + clusterbomb is strong. Choking gas is just butter on a downed target or anyone else who has insane health regen. One of the most critical aspects of fighting a warrior is to apply a constant source of poison, when he is not in his kitten mode berserker stance, by making sure you interrupt his combustive shot and signet of rage (if it already hasnt been popped) and avoiding his other burst skill.

Immobilization on surprise attack is really strong. For example allows for a free clusterbomb shot on a thief who just used blackpowder. Its main purpose, at least for me, is for a free steal item hit (basilisk venom does this too when applied to a target via backstab – lets face it, nearly all the times you should be using bassi is when invis due to the long cast time and the reveal below your health bar). Simply hit the target with immob, port to him with preferably shadow shot, but infiltrator arrow can be used as well to blind the target, then use your steal item (just the ele steal alone hits for about 4.5k – not to mention ridiculously good the guardian and necro steal). Finally, with the added initiative gain, 3 spam gives you an extra disabling shot use.

Shortbow is a great team support weapon and it’s fine.

Rafahil.2857:

[…]the whole weapon set doesn’t even have access to stealth.

The blast finisher on 2 can be used with blackpowder. Not used often, but just saying. Most of the time, Im in shortbow when Im low on health. I also bring hide in shadows.

by the time you use cluster bomb…. the suprise shot has already worn off :P what are you talking about? short bow is good for poison field and 3 spam. sometimes cluster bomb at close range but nothing special.

stealth attack (function)
auto attack (speed or dmg)
infil arrow (function or range)

all need to be beefed up…but just a tad…..

SB is mainly for group play and not solo
also its more support type than pure dps

have you try it on zerg fight?
condition spec
4-5 poison fields which tag 20 ppl with up to 30 seconds so an average of 5-7.5k dmg
clusterbomb does nice bleeding 1-3 stacks so an average 1k dmg
with venoms trick shot hits 3 times so spreading them nicely
also diecrt dmg is nice even in condition spec 500-1000 per hit
in power spec
poison field does 2.4k dmg aoe
clustebomb can do 4-6k dmg +bleeding
direct dmg is 2-3k

i would love 1200 range or more speed attacks but not both as it will be OP

SB is actually the most balanced weaponset in the thief armory right now (although it still needs 1200 range on CB again, at the very least, if not on the auto as well).

That being said, P/P still needs a MASSSSIVE buff, like was promised, and we still need an actual 1200 range option.

Travlane.5948:

by the time you use cluster bomb…. the suprise shot has already worn off :P

No it actually doesnt. Try it out for yourself.

Travlane.5948:

talking about? short bow is good for poison field and 3 spam. sometimes cluster bomb at close range but nothing special.

You need to experiment more with shortbow.

Travlane.5948:

stealth attack (function)
auto attack (speed or dmg)
infil arrow (function or range)

all need to be beefed up…but just a tad…..

No they don’t. Auto attack is terrible in a 1 on 1 fight against anyone not dumb enough to not strafe, true, but it still doesn’t need to be buffed – it gets about 1.2k hits on criticals. Ultimately though shortbow shines as a team support weapon.

If they’d increase the speed I could actually make use of my initiative with Shortbow instead of it being perma full if I’m not spamming cluster bomb at 50 range. The time it takes Cluster Bomb to hit the target area your ini has already fully regen’d the time you get to use it again.

panicbutton.1053:

Other builds with different weapon sets can hold their ground in this situation. A short bow currently cannot.

Most good thieves use shortbow more than their other weapon spec. It isn’t just a random weapon they occasionally switch to to get away, move across the map, or something. There are legitimate/intentional uses for it. Just like there are legitimate/intentional uses for their other weapon set.

@panicbutton,
let me ask this, how many thieve’s dont carry shortbow?

Might not be the main weapon choice for thieves, but i’d say that nearly every thief runs with one in their secondary slot.

The beauty of shortbow is that it needs no specific traits to make it effective. Any power/ precision build can make excellent use of it, both for killing and for utility. If you think it’s used only for utility, you haven’t seen it used correctly yet.

On the list of thief weapons and traits that need to be buffed, shortbow doesn’t make the first page.

Some specific scenarios:

- Multiple people (or mesmer clones) are clustered together. Spam #2, and learn how to detonate it early. Extra credit if you have a sigil of fire on your bow

- You want to kite a melee character. 1 and 3 let you kite some people forever… 3 is a spammable dodge/ gap opener/ crippler

- You want to poison someone, such as a warrior with healing signet. Shortbow makes it easy

- You want to stack might, or heal yourself, or cast an AoE blindness… find the right field in the zerg, and spam 2 into it

- You need to fight from range, for any of several reasons (e.g., red circles you’d rather not enter)

Shortbow. It’s not just for tagging anymore

But the way shortbow is designed is the problem. Shortbow seems to be optimized for short rage AoE and that in itself is the problem, there isnt many situations especially in pvp where you’ll find that to be the best course of action.
I only thing i can think of that would make shortbow a more viable dps weapon would be by removing detonate from cluster bomb. I honestly think any drastic enough change to the speed of cluster bomb to make shortbow worthy for mainhand DPS would make it overpowered.

I use my shortbow 90% of the time as a primary weapon, the other 10% being swapping to another set for a burst, as do most Thieves who play in tPvP such as Caed and Jumper (two popular examples).

Shortbow is 100% fine as primary weapon set, stop asking for buffs just because you don’t know how to use it properly.

panicbutton.1053:

It is our only weapon in which NO build surrounds it, making it inefficient and rendered almost useless.

That really isn’t an issue. SB as it is a great utility weapon and honestly it is fine in that regard. Strong AoE damage, strong access to poison field, strong access to blast finishers (AoE weakness is a plus is many places), and great mobility. It is not the perfect main hand weapon. What is is is one of the best group/utility weapons in the game if not the best one.

A build does not have to be centered around a weapon in order for that weapon to get useful. Not every weapon is going to be great at everything. As it is SB is a very good weapon. It wouldn’t make any sense to beg for it to get buffed just to have it nerfed a few months later.

We need a 1,200 range option dps weapon. My hope is Anet will look into giving us LB.

Chicago Jack.5647:

Travlane.5948:

by the time you use cluster bomb…. the suprise shot has already worn off :P

No it actually doesnt. Try it out for yourself.

Travlane.5948:

talking about? short bow is good for poison field and 3 spam. sometimes cluster bomb at close range but nothing special.

You need to experiment more with shortbow.

Travlane.5948:

stealth attack (function)
auto attack (speed or dmg)
infil arrow (function or range)

all need to be beefed up…but just a tad…..

No they don’t. Auto attack is terrible in a 1 on 1 fight against anyone not dumb enough to not strafe, true, but it still doesn’t need to be buffed – it gets about 1.2k hits on criticals. Ultimately though shortbow shines as a team support weapon.

yes…it does end b4 cluster bomb hits. the immob is only 2s while CB is a 3 second hang time plus a .75s (arguably .5s if not activated other skills prior) activation time.

so tell me how 2 = 3.75

even if ur right on top its a close call…..prolly will hit if u are that close but theres better single target weapons…… :P and especially combos

weakness 4 init clusterbobm 3 init . 7/12 or about 60% of your init gets 1 good attack plus poison for 4 secs and MAYBE weakness but probably not bc nobody stands it it for 3 seconds (after you cast poison plus CB flight time…nobody gets hit for weakness unless huge zerg not paying attention).

ask another class if they would waste skills 2 3 4 and 5 on weaponset 1 for 1 good damage attack plus poison with a small chance at 4s of weakness. i thinkthey’d say no.

i do like shortbow dont get me wrong…just needs a lil bit of love

Make Cluster bomb a longer bleed. When you detonate it, it should apply a burn. I feel as if condi thieves just need that 1 extra boost to make them on par with spike.

panicbutton.1053:

Short bow is a standard side utility weapon and is absolutely never used as a main hand weapon.

What is a “main hand weapon” in your mind? If you mean, “the weapon you use the most,” I think several folks have told you they do use shortbow more than their other set. This includes some prominent sPvP thieves.

If there were a bunch of SB traits, then the weapon would be balanced around those traits. I love the fact that it’s great right out of the box, and I don’t think I’m alone in that.

Travlane.5948:

yes…it does end b4 cluster bomb hits.

No it doesn’t. People like Tessa Avery use this simple combo – all the time. This is short bow 101 here. By the time it reaches the target where you want to detonate, there is about a remaining 0.25 second immob on them.

Just try it. No hypothetical here. Just – try – it.

most important post of this thread incoming guys: shortbow used to be great w/ lotus poison.. now its meh

Kadin.3086:

most important post of this thread incoming guys: shortbow used to be great w/ lotus poison.. now its meh

It’s a little better than it used to be, since they made the recharge on Lotus Poison per-target, and reduced it to 15s recast at the same time. We still have the ability to sustain mass Weakness with a 4-2 combo, too.

Incurafy.6329:

I use my shortbow 90% of the time as a primary weapon, the other 10% being swapping to another set for a burst, as do most Thieves who play in tPvP such as Caed and Jumper (two popular examples).

Shortbow is 100% fine as primary weapon set, stop asking for buffs just because you don’t know how to use it properly.

I love how my post telling you that Shortbow is used as a primary weapon in a tPvP was completely ignored, LOL.

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-c3RV;1Rw-_06-V-Fd0;9;49T;0T2;002A;446B5BW4;2F-03F-035Bw

I cbf recording a video, go watch Caed’s Twitch videos for an example of it being used in tPvP. You can also watch him use it in the 2v2 tournaments.

Also, it’s not a duel build, it’s a team build. Fighting you 1v1 with just Shortbow would prove nothing. A weapon set doesn’t have to be used as a primary in imbalanced, irrelevant duels for it to be good.

I don’t thing it’s wrong to be considered the “off-hand” of choice, I wish P/P was even close to that.

I wont make a video but I’ll give 1v1 with the SB a shot, Panic. I use it as my main.

lol recent nerfs made ppl reroll shortbow? what is next after another nerf? dagger main hand, no weapon offhand lol?

Chicago Jack.5647:

Travlane.5948:

yes…it does end b4 cluster bomb hits.

No it doesn’t. People like Tessa Avery use this simple combo – all the time. This is short bow 101 here. By the time it reaches the target where you want to detonate, there is about a remaining 0.25 second immob on them.

Just try it. No hypothetical here. Just – try – it.

i have an education. perhaps u need to audit the class lol all joking aside ur wrong. i could make an instructional video or just one showing some visuals…. if u like.

Chicago Jack.5647:

Travlane.5948:

yes…it does end b4 cluster bomb hits.

No it doesn’t. People like Tessa Avery use this simple combo – all the time. This is short bow 101 here. By the time it reaches the target where you want to detonate, there is about a remaining 0.25 second immob on them.

Just try it. No hypothetical here. Just – try – it.

AS I SAID…… i was correct.

i did it very fast as youwill see in video. 900 range 650 400 200 ….tests were done at those ranges.. THE ONLY cluster bomb that had 0 chance of being evaded (meaning while immob was still up) was the one under 200. at 900 range he had about 9/10ths of a second after immob wore off to move. the rest wasnt to much of a difference prolly .33 seconds faster each but the problem was the delay in AFTERCAST of immob on surprise shot ADDED to the activation time of cluster bomb…… whichis wher eyou get the immob time wasted basically.

check out that 101 class again…..if u like ill let u take my notes

all joking aside….until i see a video of you proving me wrong. cant really argue. also… there was no traits used 0/0/0/0/0 and no food obv. no sigils and i used scholar runes.

http://youtu.be/rdLuXJxqfNY

The only thing I could see is maybe a slight increase in projectile speed.

Other than that, I think Shortbow is a pretty solid weapon all around.

Agree that maybe the speed could be improved on some attacks but I actually think SB is quite strong. In smaller scale it’s more of a situational or utility weapon true, but it’s the go-to weapon of choice for thieves that raid in WvW guilds. Choking gas is an excellent source of poison and 4-5k aoe crits with cluster bomb is pretty strong.

i use the shortbow quite a lot and i’m fine with it;
yes, maybe lacks some damages, but provides a great source of kite/escape.
The only thing that rly bother me is that i can hit almost nothing from walls now, when i have to defend a keep or a tower, cuz that insane short range on cluster bomb (maybe the projectile a bit faster would be good too, but main issue is that we lack of range for hit anything under our walls)

I’m taking this as a challenge and going to try to create a spvp build that only uses shortbows and see how it goes.

panicbutton.1053:

900 range is doable, especially if the rangers short bow is limited to 900 range. They might start complaining otherwise. But seriously with 900 range and some specific traits, short bow thieves could be REALLY fun!

I would laugh so hard if a ranger complained about us getting decent range on the shortbow, considering they now get an instant stealth attack on a 10-12s cooldown at 1200-1500 range on longbow. They cry so hard but their profession is so faceroll it’s embarrassing.

Thieves only get one stealth that doesn’t have a tell and it’s on a 60 second and yet rangers can do it, with their most powerful ranged weapon at maximum range. I’m not complaining about this mind you, just pointing out that they don’t have a leg to stand on when it comes to us getting a bit more range.

maybe shortbow #5 could create a smoke field like off-hand pistol does. could be usefull for stealth, or blinding people on top of walls in wvw for example.

i agree shortbow 5 leaves something to be desired….nobody has ever used it as a blind skill….. only escape.

even if u cant port to location…it hsould leave an AOE blind. thatwould be great for WVW and give it a totally diff use defensively

So I use SB in Wv3… a lot, harassing around the edges of fights looking for the CnD > steal > BS. If I had to make a build around SB specifically, it would probably look something like this – http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYUQFAVkYmUIbKqwdiThFeU6Hkp+DXFA-w (traited only).

The thing about this, is that this build really isn’t that great taking into account other traits, and isn’t strong for any “offhand” weaponset. It’s not horrible I guess, but I wouldn’t want it… and when you can build/optimize around a different weaponset and have pretty much this for SB there’s no reason to do a SB build.

For changes, I’d suggest the 5% damage to a 300 range increase. IMHO that would be enough, full stop… at least for me.

I think increasing the firing speed would be just swell, it’s not horrible mind you… but it does feel kind of slow.

The 1200 > 900 CB nerf, that was a straight up nerf. The devs thought the range was too much. I disagree, but whatever…

Anyway… thanks for this thread, it’s a good discussion to have. SB is far more utilitarian than any other weaponset we have, but it could you some TLC.