Guild Wars 2

Hi everyone!
I want to share with you guys just a concept of a build I’m working on, which is based on Venoms’ ability to stack high-duration mights.

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=VeF3V;1Rw-d0W5BPFd0;9;4T-OE-37B;148-1;9;0CoV3Hgk18BK

Basically, the rune set are like the ones of any HGH engi (so 60% might duration).

The might sources are:
- 20s x 2 from any venom used
- 15s * 2 anytime you stealth
- 15s * 1 anytime you dodge

Also, each time a venom is triggered, you deal ~390 damage due to Steal Health and you’re healed for the same amount of health.

So, stacking up 25 stacks of might and maintain them sounds possible.
You can also put 30 points in Shadow Arts for Venom Sharing to give those high-duration might stacks to your party members too.

The weapon choice is still not sure, as I’m not sure about the jewelry and the main stats spread (conditions or raw damage)?

Any suggestions?

no it sucks i didn’t even have to read it. Venoms are terrible.

Zepidel.5349:

no it sucks i didn’t even have to read it. Venoms are terrible.

Mature and insightful comment.
Thanks for your contribute.

with 300 share range ? HAHAHAHAHA….no

Might stacking is great for hybrid builds like HGH because might affects both condition and direct damage. Your build seems to be focused on direct damage only so in my humble opinion it’s not making the most out of those might stacks.

Currently the biggest obstacle standing in the way of an HGH-like build for Thieves is our complete lack of Burning applications on weapon skills/traits. I experimented a while ago with a build running Withdraw and Balthazar but that meant I couldn’t use Runes for might stacking. For pub stomp it worked fine but it’s overall effectiveness as a bunker buster build is completely outclassed by HGH.

DanH.5879:

with 300 share range ? HAHAHAHAHA….no

even if it was 10923094820394820398 range your team would be like ’Gee umm thanks Mr. Thief for that 5 seconds of vuln and extra auto attack worth of damage. And heck im even getting healed for a cool 200 hp, im already full hp tho!"

When you have to devote an entire build to make one type of ability work (venoms), is a clear sign than something is not right with those abilites in first place.

Tell us your results.

Did you guys (DanH and Zepidel) at least read the OP?
The base concept behind the build isn’t Venom Sharing, but just using venom for the thief. It can be also shared with 30 points in Shadow Arts.

I’ve already pointed out that the heal is 320 HP at least scaling with Healing Power.
The damage, on the other hand, is 317 at least scaling with Power. And those healing and extra damage activates each time you trigger any venom.

Venoms are actually quite useful also when not completely traited. Basilisk Venom and Devourer Venom are always really useful, while Spider Venom is great for poison stacking AND for the fact it triggers 6 times when traited.

I’m trying this build with D/P, which it seems to works quite good.
30/0/30/0/10 looks failry effective (without venom sharing but with Shadow Renjuvenation), expecially when you consider that D/P thief is forced to stack low duration stealth with triggers multiple times the might stacks.

Also, Devourer Venom, Basilisk Venom and Ice Drake Venom seems to work extremely fine with Shadow Shot, overshadowing the lack of any immobilization/snares of the D/P set.

I’m skeptical if the build has any use at all but the fact that you don’t have any break stuns (other then shadow return on infil strike) you’d lose to a decent thief or ele in the long run. Which i wouldn’t play because those two are the ones i hate losing to, the most.

bladie.5084:

I’m skeptical if the build has any use at all but the fact that you don’t have any break stuns (other then shadow return on infil strike) you’d lose to a decent thief or ele in the long run. Which i wouldn’t play because those two are the ones i hate losing to, the most.

This is just a concept.
Keep in mind that when you’re running S/x you have always a stunbreaker.

sorrow.2364:

bladie.5084:

I’m skeptical if the build has any use at all but the fact that you don’t have any break stuns (other then shadow return on infil strike) you’d lose to a decent thief or ele in the long run. Which i wouldn’t play because those two are the ones i hate losing to, the most.

This is just a concept.
Keep in mind that when you’re running S/x you have always a stunbreaker.

Not according to the “leaked” information :9 And yes I do keep in mind of that.

bladie.5084:

Not according to the “leaked” information :9 And yes I do keep in mind of that.

Leaked information are fake. 97% sure about that, so don’t really trust those info.

sorrow.2364:

Did you guys (DanH and Zepidel) at least read the OP?
The base concept behind the build isn’t Venom Sharing, but just using venom for the thief. It can be also shared with 30 points in Shadow Arts.

I’ve already pointed out that the heal is 320 HP at least scaling with Healing Power.
The damage, on the other hand, is 317 at least scaling with Power. And those healing and extra damage activates each time you trigger any venom.

Venoms are actually quite useful also when not completely traited. Basilisk Venom and Devourer Venom are always really useful, while Spider Venom is great for poison stacking AND for the fact it triggers 6 times when traited.

I’m trying this build with D/P, which it seems to works quite good.
30/0/30/0/10 looks failry effective (without venom sharing but with Shadow Renjuvenation), expecially when you consider that D/P thief is forced to stack low duration stealth with triggers multiple times the might stacks.

Also, Devourer Venom, Basilisk Venom and Ice Drake Venom seems to work extremely fine with Shadow Shot, overshadowing the lack of any immobilization/snares of the D/P set.

Venoms are bad bad bad….bad. You realize that a zerker thief’s dagger 1 can crit for over 3k and that has a .25 second coodown? 320 damage for everyone in the party is like 1/2 that and is on a 45 second cooldown (and guess what if you aren’t using venom share is 10000x as bad). Not to mention to lose all your good utility like projectile reflection and SR resses, and its even worse from a PvP perspective (have fun with no stun breakers / extra invis) not to mention anyone with a brain has a way to remove conditions or send them to you, or turn them into boons.

Zepidel.5349:

no it sucks i didn’t even have to read it. Venoms are terrible.

You are totally right, I thought exactly the same when I read it

lets state what you miss with venoms:
+10% dmg ini > 6
+ 5% with dagger
+ 7% Crit chance
+ 300 precision -> 14% crit chance
+ 30% crit dmg
+ 20% crit dmg < 50% hp -> average of 10%
======
- 21% Crit Chance
- 55% dmg

Any suggestions?
Yes: dont use venoms

I ran a 30/0/30/10/0 build for a bit in Wv3 with my DA line set up the same way, and using the Venom Share on the SA line.

It was pretty good when I had a group, but it’s a bit lacking when solo.

You’d get these awesome moments when you could really push your line forward and the enemies back when the venoms were up.

That said, I found myself recycling my fights often… push > share > fallback for cooldowns.

And trying to do anything solo with this build is difficult unless you retrait, and then the build is lackluster for soloing.

I like the 30/0/30/10 if you have a good group to roll with, if you know to drop the venom share right before a charge in… when the commander yells STACK.

Regarding Might stacking… it never really seemed like enough, though it was noticeable when you had all of them up.

i like it but read myu new post about integral venoms. i think if those ideas mixed with yorus i would love to play venoms

Zepidel.5349:

Venoms are bad bad bad….bad. You realize that a zerker thief’s dagger 1 can crit for over 3k and that has a .25 second coodown? 320 damage for everyone in the party is like 1/2 that and is on a 45 second cooldown (and guess what if you aren’t using venom share is 10000x as bad). Not to mention to lose all your good utility like projectile reflection and SR resses, and its even worse from a PvP perspective (have fun with no stun breakers / extra invis) not to mention anyone with a brain has a way to remove conditions or send them to you, or turn them into boons.

1. You don’t necessarily need to run 4 venoms. If you need an utility, you can bring it over the Venom which triggers the least.
2. Those are 320 damage (scaling with Power, which is going to be 400+) * the amount of times you trigger the venom * the amount of allies affected. Spider Venom triggers 6 times per cast. 2 allies affected (worse situation) are 400*6*2 = 4800 damage. Same amount is healed.
3. Cooldown is 36 second in the build I’ve linked. At least, check it out before criticize the build so aggressively.

Anubarak.3012:

You are totally right, I thought exactly the same when I read it

lets state what you miss with venoms:
+10% dmg ini > 6
+ 5% with dagger
+ 7% Crit chance
+ 300 precision -> 14% crit chance
+ 30% crit dmg
+ 20% crit dmg < 50% hp -> average of 10%
======
- 21% Crit Chance
- 55% dmg

Any suggestions?
Yes: dont use venoms

Crit damage isn’t overall damage.
You forgot also to consider what you gain when using venom sharing build. I have to go now, but I think you’re smart enough to do the math by yourself.

sorrow.2364:

Zepidel.5349:

Venoms are bad bad bad….bad. You realize that a zerker thief’s dagger 1 can crit for over 3k and that has a .25 second coodown? 320 damage for everyone in the party is like 1/2 that and is on a 45 second cooldown (and guess what if you aren’t using venom share is 10000x as bad). Not to mention to lose all your good utility like projectile reflection and SR resses, and its even worse from a PvP perspective (have fun with no stun breakers / extra invis) not to mention anyone with a brain has a way to remove conditions or send them to you, or turn them into boons.

1. You don’t necessarily need to run 4 venoms. If you need an utility, you can bring it over the Venom which triggers the least.
2. Those are 320 damage (scaling with Power, which is going to be 400+) * the amount of times you trigger the venom * the amount of allies affected. Spider Venom triggers 6 times per cast. 2 allies affected (worse situation) are 400*6*2 = 4800 damage. Same amount is healed.
3. Cooldown is 36 second in the build I’ve linked. At least, check it out before criticize the build so aggressively.

Anubarak.3012:

You are totally right, I thought exactly the same when I read it

lets state what you miss with venoms:
+10% dmg ini > 6
+ 5% with dagger
+ 7% Crit chance
+ 300 precision -> 14% crit chance
+ 30% crit dmg
+ 20% crit dmg < 50% hp -> average of 10%
======
- 21% Crit Chance
- 55% dmg

Any suggestions?
Yes: dont use venoms

Crit damage isn’t overall damage.
You forgot also to consider what you gain when using venom sharing build. I have to go now, but I think you’re smart enough to do the math by yourself.

I did the math and damage output due to precision + Crit damage in a full zerker build (based off my thief’s stats) accounts for about 35-40% of overall damage. i dont have condition gear nor do I know the best rotation for it so I cant do the math (nor do I really want to spend the time) for how much dps you lose going from a full zerker d/d thief using a rotation like…. Steal >Heart seeker(25%) >CnD+Backstab >Dagger auto attack.

112% crit dmg increases your dmg by 2.62
that means if you do 1000 dmg your crits will hit with 2620

lets compare it, i did some math^^

1. Critical Damage isn’t a straight damage boost. You have to weight its damage boost according to the chance it has to trigger (critical chance).
2. The critical damage diffence between Venom Share and non-Venom Share build is only 30%.
3. Venom Share allows you to have at least 6 stacks of might permanently. You’re giving those stacks of might also on your allies. You should consider also the damage boost of those stacks of might.
4. The non-situational critical chance decrease compared to venom share build is only 16%. That chance can be compensated by the non-spent 10 traitpoints that venom share build left unused. Either use them on Critical Strikes or on Trickery.
5. Venom Share build grants approx +450 damage per hit to anyone affected by venoms (depending on power). That extra damage should be counted too.

All those are only considering the offensive side of venom sharing builds. We are not taking into account the increased defensive capability and the support this build has to offer, compared to the non-existent defenses and support of the pure glass cannon thief.

1) yeah correct, but your critical hit chance nearly reaches 100% at least I have about 95% with fury and banners
2) yeah that’s correct
3) normally a good team should be able to have 25 stacks of might even without a thief… 1 Mesmer 1 warrior 1 thief or 1 S/D Ele and you have them.. Thieves should not goal for it
4)why 16%?
You dont have dagger training 5%, you dont have executioner 20% (average of 10%) you dont have First Strikes (10%) so we have 25%

Anubarak.3012:

3) normally a good team should be able to have 25 stacks of might even without a thief… 1 Mesmer 1 warrior 1 thief or 1 S/D Ele and you have them.. Thieves should not goal for it
4)why 16%?
You dont have dagger training 5%, you dont have executioner 20% (average of 10%) you dont have First Strikes (10%) so we have 25%

3) That’s the point of support build. If you have already 2 support professions in your team, there is no point to run support yourself and it will obviously hamper the overall effectiveness of the build. But imagine you did not have those support build, but just one (which is common on PUGs). The situation changes.
4. I was talking aboud the difference in critical chance.
Well, as I said, First Strikes and Executioner are situational. Executioner is more reliable, First Strike will be not triggered most of the time. The damage bonus you lose is compensated by the extra damage of Venoms and the increased healing capability.

It is obvious that a pure glass cannon build deal at some points more damage, but the difference isn’t that much to consider the venom share build completely unviable.