Guild Wars 2

Wolfield.9812:
Also like to add a link to a new thread about might stacking:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Concept-25-Stacks-of-Might-Yes-please

I have thought about it quite alot, and never run the numbers, but would be interesting to see. With the normal build i stay around 6 – 8 might, even we were to might stack would loose our runes of divinity, which i don’t think i would be able to do, as well as crit dmg. Just another avenue to explore though.

I made a long post about it (2 really, the 5000 word limit per post is annoying)
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Concept-25-Stacks-of-Might-Yes-please/first#post2219743

The basic idea is that if you want to give up Shadow Rejuvination, and you can keep 24-25 stacks of might up, you can gain 3%~ damage or so over the 30/30/10 build we’ve been discussing in this thread, but you have to keep up 24-25. If you dont, you lose damage. The whole thing seems to situation for me honestly. Its like you have to do this and that and this and that, and only if you maintain all this stuff do you manage to actually overtake your old damage output. Plus you have to build up to that point, and against a GC or Boonbunker type character in WvW, you wont reach the point where the might stacking build does more damage, and those are the fights you need your damage for. For PVE… well, just use a glass cannon build…

Jade Quarry Warrior Strike Force [SF]
w/ an alt Thief and Guardian.
Math is your friend.

Building a better D/D thief.

in Thief

Posted by: Klabbo.6927

Klabbo.6927

I run a build similar to your 0/30/30/10 build, wish. From what I’ve seen, most people have zerk/zerk trinkets. However , I’ve already invested in a full set of zerk/valk ascended trinkets. To account for this I use zerker weapons and it seems to even out okay. Even so, I’m not sure if i’ve put myself at a disadvantage getting zerk/valk trinkets. What do you think?

Also, ignore the secondary weapon set, I like to have a bump in toughness on weapon swap as I use it when I go on the defense.

Nightjay
[roam] Leader and Thief.
Isle of Janterrible.

Building a better D/D thief.

in Thief

Posted by: wish.1027

Klabbo.6927:
I run a build similar to your 0/30/30/10 build, wish. From what I’ve seen, most people have zerk/zerk trinkets. However , I’ve already invested in a full set of zerk/valk ascended trinkets. To account for this I use zerker weapons and it seems to even out okay. Even so, I’m not sure if i’ve put myself at a disadvantage getting zerk/valk trinkets. What do you think?

Here’s the build:
http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.0|8.1g.h2.8.1g.h17|c.1n.hd.8.1n.h4|1c.71j.1g.71j.1c.71j.1g.71j.1c.71j.1g.71j|2t.d13.2t.d13.3t.d17.3t.d17.2t.d13.2s.d13|0.u36c.u56b.a6.0|39.1|57.5c.5b.5h.0|e

Also, ignore the secondary weapon set, I like to have a bump in toughness on weapon swap as I use it when I go on the defense.

Youre not losing anything by doing that, so its totally fine. The 30/30/10 set uses Valk weapons, bers/bers trinkets, you simply traded 128 VIT for 128 PREC on weapons and 90 PREC on Trinkets for 90 VIT. So slightly more EP slightly less EHP compared to what I posted. The only advise I will give you is to check your precision and try to match it to a point where you gain exactly 1% crit chance so you dont waste precision. You might need to switch 1 Trinket or infusion, but it would be worth it.

Jade Quarry Warrior Strike Force [SF]
w/ an alt Thief and Guardian.
Math is your friend.

Building a better D/D thief.

in Thief

Posted by: wish.1027

For this build I changed 1 Defensive Berserker/Berserker earring to Offensive Berserker/Valkyrie, the Infusion changed from Vitality to Precision, and I changed 2 other Power infusions to Precision infusions. This will give us exactly 1 Precision over 53% crit chance.

The other option would be to spend 60+ gold and make a Versatile Precision Infusion for the Defensive Berserker/Berserker ring, so we would lose that Vitality infusion, and then gain a Power infusion, which will end us at exactly 53% crit chance, and these stats:
Effective Power 4772.32
Effective Health 21806
11 Power for 70 Defense doesnt seem like a good trade at this point, so I will not be using this one, and I will waste the 1 stat point. In the end, by giving up the 5 Vitality infusion you’re also giving up 1 Precision gained from Master Maintenance Oil… so it balances itself out anyway sort of. I don’t believe there is a right answer here, so we’ll go with the one that is 60 gold cheaper.

For this build we hit exactly 52% Crit chance by moving both Defensive Berserker/Berserker trinkets to Offensive Berserker/Valkyrie, moving both their Vitality Infusions to Precision Infusions, and Changing 1 Power infusion to Precision.

I think the Fall build might have a bit to much EHP as it is honestly, so I built a second version to remove some of it and switch it over to Power. The downside to this build is that the gear is pretty different from what I had originally used. Four Trinkets were switched to Berserker/Valkyrie, the weapons were switched to Berserker, and Four Infusions were changed.

For this build we end at exactly 56% crit chance, Which is pretty high, and I wish I could change some of that Precision to Power, but it doesnt work out, this is the best you can do without wasting a bunch of stats. On the up side to this build, this has almost exactly the EHP as Yishis’s build, slightly more damage reduction and slightly less HP though, but people who are use to it will only see a damage increase using this instead. What this actually accomplishes over version one is a 3% Damage increase and 5% Defense loss. The loss in Effective HP won’t be noticeable to most of you, it might even be an improvement, so losing 5% of it for 3% damage might be a good trade.

The real problem with this build is that all the damage gains when using this come from making more critical hits on your attacks. So it doesnt help your Backstab damage, it actually makes it worse as you lose 6 power. You should keep that in mind when deciding which would be better for you as well.

In the end, you should use whichever you find better, I only built these on my preference for 21.5k~ EHP, as I find thats where I can effectively avoid dieing to burst most of the time. But I can confidently say these are the best builds available for the trait sets and keeping in line with that amount of EHP.

Jade Quarry Warrior Strike Force [SF]
w/ an alt Thief and Guardian.
Math is your friend.

(edited 2013-06-17 06:34:34 by wish.1027)

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Posted by: Klabbo.6927

Klabbo.6927

wish.1027:
Youre not losing anything by doing that, so its totally fine. The 30/30/10 set uses Valk weapons, bers/bers trinkets, you simply traded 128 VIT for 128 PREC on weapons and 90 PREC on Trinkets for 90 VIT. So slightly more EP slightly less EHP compared to what I posted. The only advise I will give you is to check your precision and try to match it to a point where you gain exactly 1% crit chance so you dont waste precision. You might need to switch 1 Trinket or infusion, but it would be worth it.

Okay that’s good to hear. I’ll look into tweaking my precision, cheers!

Nightjay
[roam] Leader and Thief.
Isle of Janterrible.

(edited 2013-06-17 06:40:30 by Klabbo.6927)

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Posted by: Bovinity.8610

Potentially useless info:

During Dragon Bash you can get the Slice of Candied Dragon Roll food which seems to be the same thing as the Omnomberry Ghost (albeit shorter duration) but costs darn near nothing at all.

However, I still wonder at their value versus the Squash. Your logic about Hidden Killer vs. Executioner and large bursts being extremely effective at causing panic (not to mention making HP pools drop) makes a lot of sense, and it would seem that adding a significant amount to that burst would be a good idea.

The Ghosts might be the highest theoretical DPS if you go with the HP-Swing method (which isn’t entirely valid, it looks like you’re counting a ghost proc as 700 damage which really isn’t fair at all), but in what situation is that actually useful for a class that isn’t going for a bunker strategy? Not to mention the RNG baked into the mechanic.

In a short fight I’d certainly think that you’d want more burst to get rid of the opponent altogether as quickly as possible versus sacrificing a pretty decent amount of damage for a small heal and giving them the chance to just live longer and do more damage to you. Even in a long drawn out fight against something like a bunker Guardian, is trying to essentially “out-bunker” the Guardian with the Ghosts going to be desirable versus simply lining up more damage?

Any sufficiently advanced skill is indistinguishable from luck.

(edited 2013-06-17 16:54:45 by Bovinity.8610)

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Posted by: wish.1027

Bovinity.8610:
Potentially useless info:

During Dragon Bash you can get the Slice of Candied Dragon Roll food which seems to be the same thing as the Omnomberry Ghost (albeit shorter duration) but costs darn near nothing at all.

I was unaware of that, thanks for pointing it out. I always use Ghosts instead of Pies because they generally cost the same amount but Ghosts last 45 minutes instead of 30.

Bovinity.8610:
However, I still wonder at their value versus the Squash. Your logic about Hidden Killer vs. Executioner and large bursts being extremely effective at causing panic (not to mention making HP pools drop) makes a lot of sense, and it would seem that adding a significant amount to that burst would be a good idea.

You’re not adding a significant amount of damage to that with Squash or a100 Power food.

I have 2146 base power, 250 from bloodlust, and 6 stacks of might when Im fighting people at 35 power each.
2146 + 250 + (6 * 35)= 2606
If we add 100 to that then divide it by itself we get…
(2606 + 100) /2606= 1.0383
So adding 100 power would only be a 3.8% damage increase.

If we add 10% crit damage instead, starting with 102% crit damage, and knowing a crit is +50% damage base we get a 2.62 multiplier compared to 2.52.
2.62/2.52=1.0396
Again, its under a 4% damage increase. And thats at 100% crit chance. You can half that number for every other attacks damage increase since every other attack is only 50%~ crit chance.

Bovinity.8610:
The Ghosts might be the highest theoretical DPS if you go with the HP-Swing method (which isn’t entirely valid, it looks like you’re counting a ghost proc as 700 damage which really isn’t fair at all), but in what situation is that actually useful for a class that isn’t going for a bunker strategy? Not to mention the RNG baked into the mechanic.

What I actually showed with my original math was that you would have to be fighting a glass cannon/up level for Omnom Ghosts to actually lose, and theyd only lose then if you had full HP the whole time. They didnt even lose by that much either, we’re talking 100 damage for every 12,000, and only if you kept full HP the whole time. The less damage you’re doing to someone the more Ghosts pull ahead. Against a bunker, whats your backstab do? 5k if you’re lucky? Thats less than a 200 damage increase from either of the other foods. Meanwhile you have a 66% chance to get 341 HP (341*.66=225) or simply speaking, Omnom Ghosts add 225 damage to your swing, and if you’re missing any HP at all, they create a much larger HP swing than any other food provides.

Bovinity.8610:
In a short fight I’d certainly think that you’d want more burst to get rid of the opponent altogether as quickly as possible versus sacrificing a pretty decent amount of damage for a small heal and giving them the chance to just live longer and do more damage to you.

In a fast fight it wont matter, youll down them in half a second anyway.

Bovinity.8610:
Even in a long drawn out fight against something like a bunker Guardian, is trying to essentially “out-bunker” the Guardian with the Ghosts going to be desirable versus simply lining up more damage?

Out-bunkering bunkers on my Thief is exactly what I do honestly. My offhand is S/D, against Boonbunkers like Guardians, Eles, that new Ranger build and the Mesmer one, they rely on boons to be super awesome. I steal their boons, and auto attack them down with sword and lol the whole time because I dont need to do anything but use Lac Strike to take the correct boons, then stand in front of them and autoattack. (Ok this isnt true against against Eles with a clue, but for most fights this is exactly what happens) This is when ghosts really shine and when what they do actually matters.

For the bunkers that just have lots of HP and Defense you can whittle them down however you like, but youll not be doing enough damage to them to make ghost procs do less than a 4% damage increase.

Jade Quarry Warrior Strike Force [SF]
w/ an alt Thief and Guardian.
Math is your friend.

Building a better D/D thief.

in Thief

Posted by: Bovinity.8610

Meanwhile you have a 66% chance to get 341 HP (341*.66=225) or simply speaking, Omnom Ghosts add 225 damage to your swing,

Wouldn’t that be, (341*.66*.57) give or take a few crit %? Closer to 130 damage/swing on average? Still significant, no doubt, and more damage/swing than the other foods are giving on anything other than backstab, hm. I hadn’t thought about it that way, actually.

I have bought a ton of the Dragon Rolls food for WvW, so I am eager to give it a go in there. I’ll probably end up stocking up a bank full of them before Dragon Bash is over just so I can spend 30 copper versus ~9 silver/each on food down the road.

Any sufficiently advanced skill is indistinguishable from luck.

Building a better D/D thief.

in Thief

Posted by: wish.1027

Bovinity.8610:
Meanwhile you have a 66% chance to get 341 HP (341*.66=225) or simply speaking, Omnom Ghosts add 225 damage to your swing,

Wouldn’t that be, (341*.66*.57) give or take a few crit %? Closer to 130 damage/swing on average?

No, because I was talking specifically about Backstab and Hidden Killer. Thats correct for everything else though, except if youre missing any HP at all you can double it like youre Jay Wilson.

Bovinity.8610:
Still significant, no doubt, and more damage/swing than the other foods are giving on anything other than backstab, hm. I hadn’t thought about it that way, actually.

I have bought a ton of the Dragon Rolls food for WvW, so I am eager to give it a go in there. I’ll probably end up stocking up a bank full of them before Dragon Bash is over just so I can spend 30 copper versus ~9 silver/each on food down the road.

I might have gone a bit overboard too, lol.

Attachments:

Jade Quarry Warrior Strike Force [SF]
w/ an alt Thief and Guardian.
Math is your friend.

Building a better D/D thief.

in Thief

Posted by: Bovinity.8610

Your bank.

It frightens me.

=D

Any sufficiently advanced skill is indistinguishable from luck.

Building a better D/D thief.

in Thief

Posted by: wish.1027

Bovinity.8610:
Your bank.

It frightens me.

=D

(*’-’)

Jade Quarry Warrior Strike Force [SF]
w/ an alt Thief and Guardian.
Math is your friend.

Building a better D/D thief.

in Thief

Posted by: aarias.4016

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mango_Pie

Great discussion here, I went through much the same process myself when coming up with my build(s)…although I didn’t post my results.

One thing I’d like to mention that hasn’t yet been covered is the value (both economically and practically speaking) of Mango Pie food.

Constant 85 health regen per second, and you don’t have to hit anyone to get it (this is the key). Also, since Mangos are purchased from a Karma vendor, this food is generally ~40 copper each – very cheap. As of this moment, I prefer the Mango Pie to Omnomberry Ghost/Pie for the simple fact that heals are ticking away throughout the entire duration of an engagement. Get spiked and have to stealth/recover? Tactical retreat? Waiting for conditions to clear? Mango Pie still heals. In my opinion, the D/D thief is most vulnerable when visible and engaged, and choosing Mango Pie over an Omnomberry option allows you to retain the healing, regardless of the situation you are faced with.

My point, of course, is irrelevant if you’re in a strict 1v1, or facing a low-skill player, but my own experience has shown that this is rarely the case (at least in T1 WvW, I play on SoR). You lose the damage output of Omnomberry Pie/Ghost, but I have found the additional healing provided to be worth the trade in many situations.

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Posted by: aarias.4016

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.0|8.1g.h2.8.1g.h4|5.1g.h4|1g.71j.1g.71j.1g.71j.1g.71j.1g.71j.1g.71j|1i.67.1i.67.1i.67.1i.67.1g.67.1i.67|0.u36c.u45b.a6.0|1k.2|0.5a.5b.5c.0|e

Here is my build (both exotic and legendary variants) if anyone is interested…

Exotic-

Legendary-

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.0|8.1g.h2.8.1g.h4|5.1g.h4|1g.71j.1g.71j.1g.71j.1g.71j.1g.71j.1g.71j|2v.d13.2v.d13.2s.d13.2v.d13.2s.d13.2s.d13|0.u36c.u45b.a6.0|1k.1|0.5a.5b.5c.0|e

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Posted by: wish.3102

aarias.4016:
Here is my build (both exotic and legendary variants) if anyone is interested…

Exotic-

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.0|8.1g.h2.8.1g.h4|5.1g.h4|1g.71j.1g.71j.1g.71j.1g.71j.1g.71j.1g.71j|1i.67.1i.67.1i.67.1i.67.1g.67.1i.67|0.u36c.u45b.a6.0|1k.2|0.5a.5b.5c.0|e

Legendary-

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.0|8.1g.h2.8.1g.h4|5.1g.h4|1g.71j.1g.71j.1g.71j.1g.71j.1g.71j.1g.71j|2v.d13.2v.d13.2s.d13.2v.d13.2s.d13.2s.d13|0.u36c.u45b.a6.0|1k.1|0.5a.5b.5c.0|e

Cavalier is so bad =/
Exotic:
Effective Power 4319.05
Effective Health (EHP) 20123
Effective Power 4381.28
Effective Health (EHP) 21950
http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.0|8.1g.h2.8.1g.h4|5.1g.h4|1c.71j.1g.71j.1g.71j.1g.71j.1c.71j.1g.71j|1g.67.1c.67.1c.67.1g.67.1g.67.1c.67|0.u36c.u45b.a6.0|1k.2|0.5a.5b.5c.0|e

Legendary:
Effective Power 4703.91
Effective Health (EHP) 20284
Effective Power 4836.22
Effective Health (EHP) 21572
http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.0|8.1g.h2.8.1g.h4|5.1g.h4|1c.71j.1g.71j.1c.71j.1g.71j.1c.71j.1g.71j|2s.d13.2t.d13.2s.d13.2t.d13.2s.d13.2s.d13|0.u36c.u45b.a6.0|1k.1|0.5a.5b.5c.0|e

I removed your cavalier gear for you.

Jade Quarry. RNG/THF/GRD/WAR
SovietSpaceDogs[SSD]

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Posted by: aarias.4016

With all do respect, Cavalier gear is no better or worse than any other gear. It has stats, and if they are the ones you’re looking for, it is as good as anything else.

Your changes seem to attempt to turn my build into the one you’ve come up with for yourself: that’s not really helpful.

You’ve traded Toughness for Vitality which I think is a poor substitute in a build with lots of health regen, and your version has 12% lower crit. damage than mine. EP is 60 points higher in your (Exotic) version, but that is misleading since we all know how much of the DPS for this build comes from the Backstab – keeping this in mind, the 12% higher crit. damage is a much larger overall boost to DPS.

(edited 2013-06-19 17:05:24 by aarias.4016)

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Posted by: wish.3102

Superior Rune of the Wurm – 30/30/10 – with corrected Precision

This is my official Exotic starter set
It uses all exotic gear with the correct exotics in place and corrected precision with cheap Oils and orbs.

Superior Rune of the Wurm – 10/30/30 – with corrected Precision

Wurm Runes are my official cheap ascended set, these do better than stuff using Orbs.

Jade Quarry. RNG/THF/GRD/WAR
SovietSpaceDogs[SSD]

(edited 2013-06-19 18:23:13 by wish.3102)

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Posted by: wish.3102

aarias.4016:
With all do respect, Cavalier gear is no better or worse than any other gear. It has stats, and if they are the ones you’re looking for, it is as good as anything else.

Your changes seem to attempt to turn my build into the one you’ve come up with for yourself: that’s not really helpful.

You’ve traded Toughness for Vitality which I think is a poor substitute in a build with lots of health regen, and your version has 12% lower crit. damage than mine. EP is 60 points higher in your (Exotic) version, but that is misleading since we all know how much of the DPS for this build comes from the Backstab – keeping this in mind, the 12% higher crit. damage is a much larger overall boost to DPS.

Your set:
2106 power, 112 crit damage, 100% crit chance on BS
My set for you:
2210 power, 102 crit damage, 100% crit chance on BS
2106*2.62=5517
2210*2.52=5569

If you want to argue toughness over vit for regen or whatever I wont argue, but there comes a point where toughness is vastly less useful compared to your HP. Your set has like 12.5k HP base, thats really low.

Jade Quarry. RNG/THF/GRD/WAR
SovietSpaceDogs[SSD]

(edited 2013-06-19 17:15:04 by wish.3102)

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Posted by: aarias.4016

wish.3102:
aarias.4016:
With all do respect, Cavalier gear is no better or worse than any other gear. It has stats, and if they are the ones you’re looking for, it is as good as anything else.

Your changes seem to attempt to turn my build into the one you’ve come up with for yourself: that’s not really helpful.

You’ve traded Toughness for Vitality which I think is a poor substitute in a build with lots of health regen, and your version has 12% lower crit. damage than mine. EP is 60 points higher in your (Exotic) version, but that is misleading since we all know how much of the DPS for this build comes from the Backstab – keeping this in mind, the 12% higher crit. damage is a much larger overall boost to DPS.

Your set:
2106 power, 112 crit damage, 100% crit chance on BS
My set for you:
2210 power, 102 crit damage, 100% crit chance on BS
2106*2.62=5517
2210*2.52=5569

If you want to argue toughness over vit for regen or whatever I wont argue, but there comes a point where toughness is vastly less useful compared to your HP. Your set has like 12.5k HP base, thats really low.

If you want to look at the Legendary sets (my original reply was discussing the exotic set, in which crit. damage for my build is actually higher than that of your version), then yes, your version provides marginally higher crit. damage (~1%). That said, the whole reason I chose the Cavalier set was for the toughness. In my opinion, with a build that has this much health regen, provided that you have enough Vitality to avoid getting bursted down before you have a chance to react, toughness is the better of the two defensive stats. Since I have chosen to run Shadow’s Embrace to compliment condition removal from HIS and Shadowstep, conditions aren’t really an issue.

Looking once again at the two Legendary build options, your version has 1,243 more EHP but 4.66% less damage reduction. The math tells us that one would need to take ~26680 direct damage (raw value) in order for the effects of the Toughness vs. Vitality to even out, and anything above 26680 damage taken would favor the Toughness build. Using the EHP number from my build, 26680 damage is roughly 130% of my EHP. I don’t know about anyone else, but I find myself in many 1vX fights that last much longer than it takes to refill my health bar 1.3 times. If a fight DOESN’T last that long, you were likely up against a GC build or a bad player, in which case, this whole issue is irrelevant since you (should) kill them easily anyway.

IMO, beyond a certain base amount of Vitality required to avoid getting “one shot”, toughness is the better defensive stat when a regular source of healing is available.

(edited 2013-06-19 18:20:58 by aarias.4016)

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Posted by: wish.3102

aarias.4016:
If you want to look at the Legendary sets (my original reply was discussing the exotic set, in which crit. damage for my build is actually higher than that of your version), then yes, your version provides marginally higher crit. damage (~1%).

Since you dont quite seem to get it. My set has less crit damage than yours does, but my backstab damage is greater than yours, because the power in my build is worth more than the crit damage in yours. The damage on all my other skills is higher as well. If you want to look at the exotic sets (lol why? this is suppose to be about final sets)
2006*2.52=5055
2093*2.42=5065
My set still wins.

EDIT: My bad, your set is 104 crit damage. Hurray for double checking after posting.
Your exotic (only) set wins for Backstab damage, but not overall damage.
2006*2.54=5095

aarias.4016:
IMO, beyond a certain base amount of Vitality required to avoid getting “one shot”, toughness is the better defensive stat when a regular source of healing is available.

Im not going to argue any math you didnt show your work for, or whether or not your build has enough HP. But, I don’t think it does, I think mango pie is pretty bad, I think not picking blind on stealth is completely foolish for /dagger since it’s so blantantly overpowered (play with it while fighting a group and see for yourself), I also think its not worth giving up so much damage outside of backstab to gain toughness for no reason when your HP is so low. All that said, it’s just a playstyle difference, but mine will function better than yours when it really matters, like when you get into those ohshi—- situations and are running away without stealth, or intentionally kiting overly large groups and leaving yourself visible to separate squirrels out of the pack, or when youre like, doing damage and attacking stuff.

Jade Quarry. RNG/THF/GRD/WAR
SovietSpaceDogs[SSD]

(edited 2013-06-19 18:44:25 by wish.3102)

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Posted by: aarias.4016

wish.3102:
aarias.4016:
If you want to look at the Legendary sets (my original reply was discussing the exotic set, in which crit. damage for my build is actually higher than that of your version), then yes, your version provides marginally higher crit. damage (~1%).

Since you dont quite seem to get it. My set has less crit damage than yours does, but my backstab damage is greater than yours, because the power in my build is worth more than the crit damage in yours. The damage on all my other skills is higher as well. If you want to look at the exotic sets (lol why? this is suppose to be about final sets)
2006*2.52=5055
2093*2.42=5065
My set still wins.

EDIT: My bad, your set is 104 crit damage. Hurray for double checking after posting.
Your exotic (only) set wins for Backstab damage, but not overall damage.
2006*2.54=5095

aarias.4016:
IMO, beyond a certain base amount of Vitality required to avoid getting “one shot”, toughness is the better defensive stat when a regular source of healing is available.

Im not going to argue any math you didnt show your work for, or whether or not your build has enough HP. But, I don’t think it does, I think mango pie is pretty bad, I think not picking blind on stealth is completely foolish for /dagger since it’s so blantantly overpowered (play with it while fighting a group and see for yourself), I also think its not worth giving up so much damage outside of backstab to gain toughness for no reason when your HP is so low. All that said, it’s just a playstyle difference, but mine will function better than yours when it really matters, like when you get into those ohshi—- situations and are running away without stealth, or intentionally kiting overly large groups and leaving yourself visible to separate squirrels out of the pack, or when youre like, doing damage and attacking stuff.

First of all, I’m not sure what this “my set wins” stuff is about. There is no “best” build for everyone. People play differently, and seek out/avoid different kinds of fights. Servers are different, tiers are different, and individual player objectives are different. It seems that you’ve convinced yourself that you’ve come up with the best D/D build imaginable, and that any alternative is simply “bad”. I disagree, and am actually disappointed in the fact that that you seem to be so unwilling to consider alternative perspectives, or simply ignore facts (the numbers I posted above) because I “didn’t show my math”. It’s a simple calculation, not rocket science.

For the sake of making my point, here it is.

Toughness vs. Vitality Breakeven Point Calculation:

VS = Vitality Gear Set
TS = Toughness Gear Set
DR = Damage Reduction
DT = Damage Taken

[VS EHP] – [TS EHP] = (([TS DR] – [VS DR])/100) * DT
21572 – 20284 = ((30.98 – 26.32)/100) * DT
DT = 1288 / 0.0466
DT = 27639

So the breakeven point is 27639 damage taken during a fight – my original estimate was off by 1000 damage, but the rational stands.

27639 damage as a percent of the EHP of the Toughness Set is 27639/20284*100, or 136%. Stated as a fraction (136%/100), that would be 1.36. So, the person wearing the toughness armor set would only need to take 1.36x of their health pool worth of damage during a fight in order to break even with the EHP of the Vitality based set. That is a fact.

In my experience, the vast majority of my fights against good players involves taking more than 1.36x of my health pool in damage…generally far more. In this case, a toughness based armor set is better than a vitality based set.

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Posted by: aarias.4016

Moving on to damage, the overall EP of your Legendary set is ~2.8% higher than mine, but the damage of critical hits (any critical hit, not just Backstab…so 50%+ of attacks) is only ~1% higher than mine, so taking that, and also considering how much of the damage of any main hand Dagger build comes from Backstab which is a guaranteed crit., the actually DPS advantage of your set will be somewhere between 1% and 2.8%. I am willing to trade 1-2.8 percent of my damage in order to gain more survivability in longer fights, while you, obviously, are not. You don’t need to agree with my decision, but you need to accept the fact that myself (and I’m sure others as well) WILL value this increase in survivability during “long” fights and choose a toughness based build over a similar vitality based build.

My decision to take condition removal on stealth rather than blind on stealth is a matter of preference again. In addition to being able to easily clear cripple, weakness, and chilled, given my lower health pool, the additional protection from conditions is more valuable to me than protection from direct damage…particularly since the thief is potentially the best class in the game when it comes to direct damage avoidance. Stealth, Steal, Shadowstep, and Shortbow 3 & 5 all make the thief a tough SOB to track down.

Mango Pie vs Omnomberry Pie is once again a judgement call. You give up damage for survivability. In a short fight, damage wins, in a long fight, survivability wins. It’s as simple as that.

The comment re. your build functioning better “when it really matters” is completely baseless. Please explain. If anything, the Mango Pie would be better than the Omnomberry pie when you are not actually engaging the enemy since it still provides healing. You need to keep in mind that we’re only actually talking about a difference of 1288 EHP between the two builds.

(edited 2013-06-19 19:38:13 by aarias.4016)

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Posted by: wish.3102

aarias.4016:
First of all, I’m not sure what this “my set wins” stuff is about.

Its about you saying your sets backstab damage is higher. Which is not true for the set that matters, the one with ascended gear.

but you need to accept the fact that myself (and I’m sure others as well) WILL value this increase in survivability during “long” fights and choose a toughness based build over a similar vitality based build.

Your idea is fundamentally flawed.

If youre fighting things, and not taking that much damage, more EHP is better, because it gives you more to start out with and youre refilling it every time between strikes in stealth anyway. The only way more toughness at the costs of EHP and vit works better is if you sit out of stealth for a long time and take more damage than you can reasonably deal with repeatedly and then stay in stealth for long periods of time to regen it all. Which is basically a bad play style, because hiding in stealth means not killing things. It would be better to have more EHP so you can stay out of stealth longer to kill things. Plus youd do more damage with more EHP, making your “am I killing them or are they killing me factor” swing vastly better in your favor and allowing you to win more fights.

My actual set btw, is 1% less damage reduction than yours, 1556 toughness instead of 1596, but I have 1369 vit instead of 1236, so 1330 more HP which combined with the WvW HP boost is more effective than you’re letting on.

I advocate Candied Dragonrolls (or Omnomberry Ghosts/Pies) Which gives just slightly more HP per second than mango pies if you spend 50% of your time fighting and 50% in stealth. It also adds that regen to your damage, and wins by more the more time you spend attacking compared to time spent in stealth. Its over double the effectiveness if you simply dont cower in stealth and spend most of your time fighting people out of stealth like I do, stealth is just a trigger for backstab or for running away. My real gear set has the same staying power yours does, but mine will have much better damage output in a practical setting.

As for the rest, I already said Im not going to argue about it. You can have your opinion but Im done talking about it. More EHP and damage is better for my playstyle of fighting things and winning. If you like to sit in stealth half the time to regen your HP after you lose it all and fail to down people, thats on you.

Jade Quarry. RNG/THF/GRD/WAR
SovietSpaceDogs[SSD]

(edited 2013-06-19 20:34:45 by wish.3102)

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Posted by: aarias.4016

I am honestly sitting at my keyboard right now wondering if you are being willfully ignorant.

What I said about Backstab damage specifically referenced the Exotic set. My statement was correct. That said, your Legendary set DOES put out more crit. damage than mine, but the difference is 1%. Hardly worth getting excited about.

I seriously don’t think you understand the underlying premise of Toughness vs. Vitality. Toughness decreases the rate at which you take damage…permanently…as in all the time. The health pool you do have lasts longer, because part of the damage is being mitigated by your toughness. Vitality, on the other hand, simply lets you start the fight with more hit points. Once those hit points are gone, they’re gone. There will be no more benefit from your Vitality until you can completely reset the encounter, regen to full health and have your heals come back off of cool down. Toughness and Vitality both increase your EHP, but EHP does not factor healing into the equation at all. I don’t know about you, but when I’m fighting I’m constantly in and out of stealth, regardless of how much health I have. It’s how main hand Dagger thieves do damage. Over time (anything more than 1.36x of a health pool worth of it, as I showed above), the Toughness build will come out ahead of a Vitality build…all other things being equal. This is not opinion, it it fact. Any player that has stacked toughness will, in essence, be able to out live someone who has stacked Vitality simply because they take damage at a lower rate than the Vitality specced player. It’s not simply about making fights last longer by “cowering” in stealth, it’s about the rate at which you take damage. As you will notice, when I have spoken about time in a fight, I refer to damage taken, not minutes and seconds.

I have never suggested that Mango Pie is across the board “better” than Omnoms or Dragonrolls, I simply stated that it is an option for people to consider. It has its benefits, and it has its weaknesses. There are plenty of circumstances where Lifesteal on Crit would be better than Regen, but there are also circumstances where Regen is the best choice.

Moving on, if you spend more of your time fighting out of stealth than in stealth looking for a Backstab, you’d be better off taking Executioner than Hidden Killer. My playstyle is to re-stealth nearly everytime CnD is available. CnD + BS is our best source of damage, and with Health Regen + Condition Removal or Blind coming along with the stealth, it’d be silly not to use it whenever it’s up. The only time I could see myself not going that route would be if the opponent were very low on health and a HS or autoattack would finish them off quicker.

(edited 2013-06-19 21:25:51 by aarias.4016)

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Posted by: Wonderer.1790

Wonderer.1790

This is getting good. Popcorn.

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Posted by: wish.3102

Ok, lets examine scenarios.

You pop out of stealth, hit someone a bit and go back in, with my set you take 1000 damage, 990 with your set. With my set you push out 10k damage, and with yours you push out 9000 damage. While we’re back in stealth/fighting all of our HP is regened while using either set. Which set did better?

Scenario 2, you pop out of stealth and get zerged the crap down for 20500 EHP worth of damage then restealth. My set can deal with this and still leave you with 2k HP so you can run away/heal/hide in stealth to try and regen HP/etc. With your set, youre downed and get stomped. Which set did better?

Next scenario, you pop out of stealth, and fight someone to try and down them until you get to 3k HP, then go back to hiding in stealth. With your set you can do 20k damage with this, and with mine you could do 26k or more, which has a higher chance to down the guy?

Next scenario, youre fighting some super well played bunker whose heal keeps coming off cooldown right as you finally manage to do enough damage to almost down him. Keeping in mind my set lets you fight longer and does more damage, which set would perform better?

Now lets say youre fighting some guys and using perma stealth to hide from them, but theyre all bad and glass cannons, but they manage to do 3k~ damage to you each time you pop out of stealth, then you go back to hiding in stealth to regen it all. Which set does better?

The last example is the only time your set would do better. When you hide in stealth and are not fighting, but take a bunch of damage every time you come out, then hide in stealth to regen it all back. But that only applies if you regen more EHP during that time than my set would give you. I dont know why youre having such a hard time understanding this simple thing.

Look at the video I posted for instance on page 1. It follows the first scenario almost to a T. I only take as much damage as I regen, do you really think your set would be more useful there? Well, I actually take less than I can regen…

Jade Quarry. RNG/THF/GRD/WAR
SovietSpaceDogs[SSD]

(edited 2013-06-20 00:22:35 by wish.3102)

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Posted by: aarias.4016

I’m not sure why everything has to be a fight over who’s right and who’s wrong with you. Our builds are incredibly similar (which is why I posted mine here in the first place), but I have chosen to spec more into toughness and you into vitality. In my original post, I was simply providing information on Mango Pies, and posted my build so that people could see what a toughness based build might look like. I didn’t say anything about being better. I was hoping for a good discussion on the various merits of each build, etc. That said, your first reply to me, and additional replies since have been petty chest thumping which accomplishes nothing at all. I’m not sure what you are trying to achieve by posting these scenarios of yours which are quite obviously inaccurate. I guess you’re trying to make your build look like the “winner”?

For the sake of argument, I’ll compare my Legendary build with your Fall #1 build.

Scenario 1 -
a) I’ve only taken 1% less damage in this scenario despite the fact that gw2buildcraft clearly shows that my Damage Reduction is nearly 5% greater than yours.
b) Your set has somehow managed to out damage mine by 10%+ in this short burst despite the fact that my Legendary build has higher Power (2016 vs 2056), higher Crit. Damage (112% vs 102%), and higher Effective Power (4703 vs 4668). A miracle has surely occurred in this fictitious land of yours.
c) Given that the damage taken was low enough that it is likely to be totally healed by one CnD, and the evidence above that my build would actually out damage yours on the initial burst (see point b) I’d guess that my build would come out ahead in this scenario.

Scenario 2 -
Given that the damage value you selected is slightly above the EHP of my build, but slightly below that of yours, obviously your build comes out on top. That said, if either one of us were to pop out of stealth next to a zerg hypothetically capable of inflicting 20500 EHP in less time than either of us could react (Shadowstep? Blinding Powder? Dodge? Shadow Refuge?), I doubt they’d stop at 20500 EHP of damage. In all honesty I’m going to hazard a guess and say that we’d both be worm food in this scenario. I’m inclined to call this one a draw, but I’ll give you the win since you make up the rules (apparently).

Scenario 3-
a) Let’s remember that your build only has ~2000 EHP more than mine. Meaning that you would have exactly that much more time than me to do damage. How long does 2000 EHP take, I wonder? I don’t know, but you seem to. Can you show me the math?
b) I’m REALLY curious as to how you’re coming up with these damage numbers. Wow. Referring back to Scenario 1, point B, my Legendary build has higher base damage numbers across all categories than your Fall #1 build. Higher Power/Crit Damage for Backstab and higher baseline EP. The extra damage from your Omnomberry Ghost wouldn’t be reflected properly in your EP, but how much extra damage does that amount to? I don’t know how long this hypothetical stealth free battle wages on for, but chances are the 341 additional damage every 2.4 attacks isn’t going to make up for your lower base damage AND somehow manage to out damage me by an additional 30%+ (my 20000 damage vs. your 26000+ damage, somehow???). Your numbers are out to lunch. Honestly I have no idea who wins this scenario, but it’s safe to say that no D/D thief who knew what they were doing would pop out of stealth and go toe to toe with someone until they were almost dead, so this scenario is more-or-less irrelevant.

Scenario 4 -
You’re basing this scenario on the fact that your build “lets you fight longer and does more damage” which I have shown to be completely false (see Scenarios 1 & 3). Good try though.

Scenario 5 – (this is exercise is starting to get old)
a) If both of us were to take 3000 damage (5% less for me, of course), then we both stealthed and regened “it all”, I’d say that we’ve both done exactly the same thing, haven’t we? If anything, the fact that I lost less health in the first place (due to Toughness) and that my Mango Pie heals me for 85+ per second even if I’m not hitting anything might mean that I could more quickly regen any health lost. Yeah, definitely…I win that round.

Scenario 6 -
I’m not going to bother with this one since you’ve already said that I win. That was easy!

For the record, I watched your video, and the people you faced in most of the clips were so stupid that you may as well have been fighting Target Golems in the Mists. That said, my honest opinion is that it wouldn’t make a bit of difference which of these builds you were running while fighting those people…they are nature’s food animals and were born to die.

Soooo, now that I’ve played along with your little charade, I’ll leave the score keeping up to you.

(edited 2013-06-20 01:45:55 by aarias.4016)

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Posted by: aarias.4016

http://youtu.be/xAsoo1YyFXo

In case you’re interested, here is an old video of me playing an old build that was similar in principal to my current build. It’s kinda dated now, but my play style is pretty much unchanged with the exception that Heartseeker isn’t as good now as it used to be.

Keep in mind that this footage was taken before the new armor types were introduced (you’ll notice that the video was uploaded in December, 2012), almost no one had legendary weapons, and legendary jewelery wasn’t yet released. Back then, my traits/food/runes/sigils were more or less the same as my current build except that I was running three pieces of Knights armor, three pieces of Invader armor, and Berserker weapons and jewelery…so a little more Vitality, but less Crit. Damage. As a result of the low Crit. Damage, I was running Executioner rather than Hidden Killer. The Thief class has received many nerfs since this footage was recorded – makes me sad to see the old Heartseeker damage numbers.

(edited 2013-06-20 02:41:44 by aarias.4016)

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Posted by: Azraeel.1238

Azraeel.1238

wish.3102:
Ok, lets examine scenarios.

You pop out of stealth, hit someone a bit and go back in, with my set you take 1000 damage, 990 with your set. With my set you push out 10k damage, and with yours you push out 9000 damage. While we’re back in stealth/fighting all of our HP is regened while using either set. Which set did better?

Scenario 2, you pop out of stealth and get zerged the crap down for 20500 EHP worth of damage then restealth. My set can deal with this and still leave you with 2k HP so you can run away/heal/hide in stealth to try and regen HP/etc. With your set, youre downed and get stomped. Which set did better?

Next scenario, you pop out of stealth, and fight someone to try and down them until you get to 3k HP, then go back to hiding in stealth. With your set you can do 20k damage with this, and with mine you could do 26k or more, which has a higher chance to down the guy?

Next scenario, youre fighting some super well played bunker whose heal keeps coming off cooldown right as you finally manage to do enough damage to almost down him. Keeping in mind my set lets you fight longer and does more damage, which set would perform better?

Now lets say youre fighting some guys and using perma stealth to hide from them, but theyre all bad and glass cannons, but they manage to do 3k~ damage to you each time you pop out of stealth, then you go back to hiding in stealth to regen it all. Which set does better?

The last example is the only time your set would do better. When you hide in stealth and are not fighting, but take a bunch of damage every time you come out, then hide in stealth to regen it all back. But that only applies if you regen more EHP during that time than my set would give you. I dont know why youre having such a hard time understanding this simple thing.

Look at the video I posted for instance on page 1. It follows the first scenario almost to a T. I only take as much damage as I regen, do you really think your set would be more useful there? Well, I actually take less than I can regen…

I’m not sure if you took into consideration the fact that he is healing every second, while you aren’t. But in any case, talking theory is totally different than the real deal. The scenarios you suggested are faulty to some extent, why so? Think of it this way, let us assume that the same person is playing in both sets. The person has a habit of using “Hide in Shadows” every time his health goes to 50%, does it matter if his health was 15k or 14k? Moreover, his toughness is more than yours, assuming you got zerged by mostly melee players, he should sustain more damage than you. Do you see what I’m trying to say here?

There are so many factors, that is just hard to take into consideration such scenarios.

80 Necromancer (Main) | 80 Thief | 80 Guardian | 80 Warrior
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Posted by: Walker.3056

Walker.3056

So can anyone clear me one thing?

The calculator say: Effective Health = (Health × Armor)/(Reference Armor)

Soooo…. that means that a build has a higher survivle the higher its EHP get because on the EHP calc it already uses armor wich include toughness (toughness use to give ur damage reduction) therefore the EHP already counts the DR on its calculation

Soooo…. The higher EHP means higher survible no matter whats ur DR on the calc show because it already used it to create the EHP

Is it right? or i dont undertand something? thanks for the help

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Posted by: Bovinity.8610

Soooo…. The higher EHP means higher survible no matter whats ur DR on the calc show because it already used it to create the EHP

Well yes, but EHP is a bit of a simplification. It’s really a figure that’s most appropriate when applied to Tank characters in PvE situations. Any calculations using it typically assume that vast amounts of direct healing are available, and even then it’s often misleading in many situations.

In PvP scenarios, there are so many other things to take into consideration that I’m really not even sure that just a raw EHP number means…well, anything. Damage profiles change from fight to fight, availability of healing changes from fight to fight, mechanics of damage application change from fight to fight…it’s really more complex than just, “I have this much EHP.”

Any sufficiently advanced skill is indistinguishable from luck.

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Posted by: Walker.3056

Walker.3056

Bovinity.8610:
Soooo…. The higher EHP means higher survible no matter whats ur DR on the calc show because it already used it to create the EHP

Well yes, but EHP is a bit of a simplification. It’s really a figure that’s most appropriate when applied to Tank characters in PvE situations. Any calculations using it typically assume that vast amounts of direct healing are available, and even then it’s often misleading in many situations.

In PvP scenarios, there are so many other things to take into consideration that I’m really not even sure that just a raw EHP number means…well, anything. Damage profiles change from fight to fight, availability of healing changes from fight to fight, mechanics of damage application change from fight to fight…it’s really more complex than just, “I have this much EHP.”

I understand that u cant say my EHP is (number) cause of many variations during a fight.

The thing that i want to know is if i made a build with more EHP than other and they fight against the same variations the one with more EHP will i last longer? cause it uses both health and damage reduction

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Posted by: wish.3102

Azraeel.1238:
I’m not sure if you took into consideration the fact that he is healing every second, while you aren’t.

My set heals more than his if you spend half your time stealth and half out. Spend most of your time out and it heals 2x as much.

Azraeel.1238:
But in any case, talking theory is totally different than the real deal. The scenarios you suggested are faulty to some extent, why so? Think of it this way, let us assume that the same person is playing in both sets. The person has a habit of using “Hide in Shadows” every time his health goes to 50%, does it matter if his health was 15k or 14k?

The persons damage output would be higher with my set, and he would be able to stay out of stealth longer until he reached 50% HP with it as well.

Azraeel.1238:
Moreover, his toughness is more than yours, assuming you got zerged by mostly melee players, he should sustain more damage than you. Do you see what I’m trying to say here?

Effective HP is a combination of toughness and vitality, my sets EHP and damage is higher. So my set can take more of a beating before dieing while doing more damage. Beyond that, his set doesnt actually have more sustain than mine.

Azraeel.1238:
There are so many factors, that is just hard to take into consideration such scenarios.

Well when you come out of stealth and fight people those are the only scenarios that occur, why is it so difficult to take them into account? You either take so little damage it doesnt matter, you get super CC zerged and die, or you have a long drawn out fight where EHP and Damage are the things that let you win. Or you run away, I guess I didnt account for that…

aarias.4016:
For the sake of argument, I’ll compare my Legendary build with your Fall #1 build.

…..because thats totally the set I use. But hey lets compare them. You don’t even know that you spec 10 into vit for the fall damage trait, or that blind on stealth is brokenly overpowered for /dagger. So Im sure you need all that toughness to mitigate the mass of hits from none-blinded people who can track you with their auto attack when you stealth.

The only thing that really matters is when fighting tough opponents. When fighting them, you need all the EHP and damage you can squeeze out to avoid them being able to sustain the fight indefinitely. My set offers superior values to yours for this. Try to spin it anyway you like with how after you fail miserably at mitigating damage and take 3x your base HP worth of damage your set mitigates more, but while you take that 3x your base HP in damage, my set would of let you kill 1-2 extra people and get stomps on them mitigating even more damage than yours, because those people would of been dead and not attacking you.

Jade Quarry. RNG/THF/GRD/WAR
SovietSpaceDogs[SSD]

(edited 2013-06-20 17:51:35 by wish.3102)

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Posted by: wish.3102

aarias.4016:
Scenario 1 -
a) I’ve only taken 1% less damage in this scenario despite the fact that gw2buildcraft clearly shows that my Damage Reduction is nearly 5% greater than yours.

Thats because you fail at reading anything I post, and you dont know that I use the Mug set, and is what I was referring to as I said I was comparing it to what I actually use, and Ive mentioned a lot in this thread that I use the mug set.

aarias.4016:
b) Your set has somehow managed to out damage mine by 10%+ in this short burst despite the fact that my Legendary build has higher Power (2016 vs 2056), higher Crit. Damage (112% vs 102%), and higher Effective Power (4703 vs 4668). A miracle has surely occurred in this fictitious land of yours.

Because Omnom Ghosts dont add damage to paper math numbers given by that website. When you eventually learn paper math isnt the end all, I’ll be happy for you. But sure, lets compare. We’ll do BS > auto attack > CnD, a normal chain. And lets say our target has 3000 armor.

Damage done = (weapon damage) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)
And since we’re determining average damage and have crit chance/damage, we’ll add those to the end as
* ((none-crit damage * none-crit chance) + (crit damage * crit chance))

Double Strike (1-1): 0.2775 x2
Wild Strike (1-2) – Lotus Strike (1-3): 0.847
Autoattack chain: 2.249
Stealthed – Backstab (front): 1.202
Stealthed – Backstab (back): 2.405
Cloak & Dagger: 1.624

Dagger Damage: 924-981
(924+981)/2=952.5
So we’ll use 952

2106 power, 46 crit chance, 112 crit damage + Mango Pie for you.
2056 power, 52 crit chance, 102 crit damage + Omnom Ghosts for me.

(952 * 2106 * 2.405* ((1 * 0) + (2.62 * 1)) /3000 =
4211.0503344 Your Backstab
((952 * 2056 * 2.405* ((1 * 0) + (2.52 * 1)) /3000) + (344 * .66 * 1) =
4181.2017024 My Backstab

(952 * 2106 * 2.249* ((1 * .54) + (2.62 * .46)) /3000 =
2623.06299266 Your Auto Attack Chain
((952 * 2056 * 2.249* ((1 * .48) + (2.52 * .52)) /3000) + ((344 * .66 * .52) * 3) =
2981.2928298 My Auto Attack Chain

(952 * 2106 * 1.624* ((1 * .54) + (2.62 * .46)) /3000 =
1894.11040466 Your Cloak and Dagger
((952 * 2056 * 1.624* ((1 * .48) + (2.52 * .52)) /3000) + (344 * .66 * .52) =
2015.0938538 My Cloak and Dagger

4211.0503344 + 2623.06299266 + 1894.11040466 =
8728.22373172 Your Total Damage
4181.2017024 + 2981.2928298 + 2015.0938538 =
9177.588386 My Total Damage

9177.588386 / 8728.22373172 = 1.05148408979
So I guess the set you randomly decided to use instead of the one I was talking about is actually only 5.15%~ Better damage than the set you use. And thats when I intentionally swing numbers more into your favor.

aarias.4016:
c) Given that the damage taken was low enough that it is likely to be totally healed by one CnD, and the evidence above that my build would actually out damage yours on the initial burst (see point b) I’d guess that my build would come out ahead in this scenario.

Oh ya? I guess I should trust you since you’re so capable of understanding math and game mechanics and understand all that is required to determine that your set out damages mine.

OH… wait… you were wrong, and I proved it by typing out the math, and I didnt even add any health gained from my omnom ghosts to my HP bar as extra damage (which would of put this set 13% ahead of you and is the entire basis of using them over other foods). I wonder what else you’re wrong about…

Anyway, this is to long and I quit caring again.

Edited for spelling and making it easier to understand.

Jade Quarry. RNG/THF/GRD/WAR
SovietSpaceDogs[SSD]

(edited 2013-06-20 19:57:10 by wish.3102)

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Posted by: wish.3102

Walker.3056:
So can anyone clear me one thing?

The calculator say: Effective Health = (Health × Armor)/(Reference Armor)

Soooo…. that means that a build has a higher survivle the higher its EHP get because on the EHP calc it already uses armor wich include toughness (toughness use to give ur damage reduction) therefore the EHP already counts the DR on its calculation

Soooo…. The higher EHP means higher survible no matter whats ur DR on the calc show because it already used it to create the EHP

Is it right? or i dont undertand something? thanks for the help

Technically, the more toughness you have, the less damage you take.

EHP is just your total HP and determines how much damage you can take before you die, if you have no sustain.

If you have a lot of sustain, a lot of toughness is the best way to stay alive. Since you take less damage from attacks, your sustain is worth more. I’ll explain by over exaggerating.
Lets say you have either 10k hp with 0% damage reduction or 5k hp with 50% damage reduction.
Either one will give you the ability to take 10k damage, and both have an effective HP pool of 10,000. Now, lets say you regen 500 HP a second, and take 1000 damage a second.
The first set will drop to 9000, regen to 9500, drop to 8500, regen to 9000, etc, until it dies. The second set will drop to 4500, then regen to 5000, then drop to 4500, then regen to 5000, etc, and never die. This is what aarias thinks is happening when he compare our sets, but it isnt.

It’s more like my set has 10k HP 30% damage redution, and regens 250hp/sec, and his set is 9k hp, 31% damage reduction and regens 200 hp/second.

Jade Quarry. RNG/THF/GRD/WAR
SovietSpaceDogs[SSD]

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Posted by: Walker.3056

Walker.3056

wish.3102:
Walker.3056:
So can anyone clear me one thing?

The calculator say: Effective Health = (Health × Armor)/(Reference Armor)

Soooo…. that means that a build has a higher survivle the higher its EHP get because on the EHP calc it already uses armor wich include toughness (toughness use to give ur damage reduction) therefore the EHP already counts the DR on its calculation

Soooo…. The higher EHP means higher survible no matter whats ur DR on the calc show because it already used it to create the EHP

Is it right? or i dont undertand something? thanks for the help

Technically, the more toughness you have, the less damage you take.

EHP is just your total HP and determines how much damage you can take before you die, if you have no sustain.

If you have a lot of sustain, a lot of toughness is the best way to stay alive. Since you take less damage from attacks, your sustain is worth more. I’ll explain by over exaggerating.
Lets say you have either 10k hp with 0% damage reduction or 5k hp with 50% damage reduction.
Either one will give you the ability to take 10k damage, and both have an effective HP pool of 10,000. Now, lets say you regen 500 HP a second, and take 1000 damage a second.
The first set will drop to 9000, regen to 9500, drop to 8500, regen to 9000, etc, until it dies. The second set will drop to 4500, then regen to 5000, then drop to 4500, then regen to 5000, etc, and never die. This is what aarias thinks is happening when he compare our sets, but it isnt.

It’s more like my set has 10k HP 30% damage redution, and regens 250hp/sec, and his set is 9k hp, 31% damage reduction and regens 200 hp/second.

Thanks

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Posted by: wish.3102

Walker.3056:
Thanks

I forgot to mention that on top of all that, my set does at least 10% more damage, which means the things you fight do at least 10% less damage to you because they die faster and quit attacking you. So that can also be seen as at least 10% more toughness/vitality/sustain added on top of what I already have, which is already superior to his set.

Jade Quarry. RNG/THF/GRD/WAR
SovietSpaceDogs[SSD]

Building a better D/D thief.

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Posted by: Mindtrick.5190

Mindtrick.5190

I see a lot of people using spvp builds in wvw.

Got Ninja?
https://www.twitch.tv/mindtrick714
<3 and Hugs no Hate I Just Point Out Fail.

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Posted by: wish.3102

Mindtrick.5190:
I see a lot of people using spvp builds in wvw.

I’ve seen your stream, you run from 1v1s when you dont sneak up on people. This thread isnt for you and your style of gank people who arent paying attention play. I mean no disrespect, it’s just a difference of playstyle, this thread is for people who run into 1v5’s as the 1, love it, and want to be better at it.

Jade Quarry. RNG/THF/GRD/WAR
SovietSpaceDogs[SSD]

Building a better D/D thief.

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Posted by: Travlane.5948

Travlane.5948

lol burn Message Body length must at least be 15.

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Posted by: Mindtrick.5190

Mindtrick.5190

You don’t watch my stream then to say I run from 1v1. I don’t duel players and I say that on stream. Staged fighting is not my thing while Im streaming.

Show me a 1v5 with equal skilled players. Ever try to 1v5 riot, I have and it does not work.

Edit: oh and that post was disrespectful, stay classy

Got Ninja?
https://www.twitch.tv/mindtrick714
<3 and Hugs no Hate I Just Point Out Fail.

(edited 2013-06-20 23:49:08 by Mindtrick.5190)

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Posted by: wish.3102

http://www.twitch.tv/mindtrick714/b/418951961
Here’s your video from yesterdayish, its 5.5 hours long, why dont you show us all the people you fight in it without having superior numbers compared to them. And all the 1v1 fights you engage in and dont run from after your initial burst fails to kill them.

Mindtrick.5190:
Edit: oh and that post was disrespectful, stay classy

Your first response to this thread about sPVP thieves in WvW was totally classy.

Jade Quarry. RNG/THF/GRD/WAR
SovietSpaceDogs[SSD]

(edited 2013-06-21 00:28:28 by wish.3102)

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Posted by: aarias.4016

wish.3102:
aarias.4016:
For the sake of argument, I’ll compare my Legendary build with your Fall #1 build.

…..because thats totally the set I use. But hey lets compare them. You don’t even know that you spec 10 into vit for the fall damage trait, or that blind on stealth is brokenly overpowered for /dagger. So Im sure you need all that toughness to mitigate the mass of hits from none-blinded people who can track you with their auto attack when you stealth.

You know what, I think the most ridiculous part of all of this is that you honestly think that your build is the absolute best for every person and every play style.

Why on earth would I choose the fall damage trait over +50% movement speed while in stealth? In case I decide to jump off a cliff mid fight and (potentially) kill myself? Unlikely. Some people run it, and that’s fine, but it’s certainly not the only trait worthy of selection like you make it out to be. This kind of thinking seems to be a trend with you…

Regarding blind on stealth vs. condition removal on stealth, I agree that blind on stealth is a very powerful trait, in fact, I actually run it myself sometimes. That said, the majority of the time, I prefer condition removal. With high toughness, and all the escape abilities that the thief possesses, I don’t tend to have too much trouble avoiding direct damage. The reason I prefer condition removal in most cases are numerous. Literally any condition damage specced class is a joke when you run it, and Cripple/Chill/Immobilize/Weakness don’t stand a chance. What do you do when someone kites you? You’ve got steal and shadowstep (both on long cooldowns), but other than that any noob could chain cripple/chill/weaken/immobilize you and watch you limp around the battlefield. How much more damage do you do than me when you can’t catch the person you’re trying to kill?

wish.3102:
The only thing that really matters is when fighting tough opponents. When fighting them, you need all the EHP and damage you can squeeze out to avoid them being able to sustain the fight indefinitely. My set offers superior values to yours for this. Try to spin it anyway you like with how after you fail miserably at mitigating damage and take 3x your base HP worth of damage your set mitigates more, but while you take that 3x your base HP in damage, my set would of let you kill 1-2 extra people and get stomps on them mitigating even more damage than yours, because those people would of been dead and not attacking you.

Your comment re. Toughness and mitigation is showing the same ignorant stance you’ve had all along. For some unknown reason you keep choosing to ignore the fact that Toughness actually lowers the damage that I take on an ongoing basis. My Vitality of 1236 equates to 20284 EHP once the mitigation has been factored in. By comparison, your build has 1481 Vitality, which equates to 22330 EHP, so 2046 EHP more than me. That said, healing throws the EHP concept for a loop since each heal I receive is actually worth more EHP than it is to you due to the damage mitigation I get from Toughness. If we both started a fight and fought to the death without receiving any heals, your build would be vastly superior to mine and there would be no reason at all to choose Toughness over Vitality, BUT, when heals enter the equation, the Toughness build begins to look better. Using the equation I gave before, I would need to take 43905 EHP (before mitigation) in damage in order to break even…which is 2.16x my base EHP pool. This trade of Toughness for Vitality isn’t going to benefit me at all in a quick fight that last only a minute or two, but if/when a fight lasts longer, and the combatants take more damage, the Toughness build shines. Basically, I am specced so that if I’m matched up with someone who is equally as skilled as I am, I know in the back of my mind that 99% of the time, I will out survive them since my healing is more effective over time than theirs. Remember, the EHP difference between the two builds is only 2046…how much longer do you think that will buy you? That is a small fraction of a backstab, probably half of a CnD, or maybe the first two skills of an auto attack chain. We’re talking seconds at most. You’re going to kill 1-2 extra people and get stomps on them in that amount of time? I beg to differ.

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Posted by: aarias.4016

wish.3102:
aarias.4016:
Scenario 1 -
a) I’ve only taken 1% less damage in this scenario despite the fact that gw2buildcraft clearly shows that my Damage Reduction is nearly 5% greater than yours.

Thats because you fail at reading anything I post, and you dont know that I use the Mug set, and is what I was referring to as I said I was comparing it to what I actually use, and Ive mentioned a lot in this thread that I use the mug set.

You Mug set does indeed have nearly as much damage mitigation as my build. My question is this: why argue with me about how much Toughness sucks when you run it yourself??? Mind boggling.

wish.3102:
aarias.4016:
b) Your set has somehow managed to out damage mine by 10%+ in this short burst despite the fact that my Legendary build has higher Power (2016 vs 2056), higher Crit. Damage (112% vs 102%), and higher Effective Power (4703 vs 4668). A miracle has surely occurred in this fictitious land of yours.

Because Omnom Ghosts dont add damage to paper math numbers given by that website. When you eventually learn paper math isnt the end all, I’ll be happy for you. But sure, lets compare. We’ll do BS > auto attack > CnD, a normal chain. And lets say our target has 3000 armor.

Edited out math to save space

So I guess the set you randomly decided to use instead of the one I was talking about is actually only 5.15%~ Better damage than the set you use. And thats when I intentionally swing numbers more into your favor.

Those numbers were great…seriously. You obviously know the damage system well, and I mean that. The only things I can correct you on is that an entire Backstab + AA Chain + CnD actually only takes 3.23 seconds, which means that you’d only get 4x potential damage from your Omnom Ghost (1s internal cooldown), and that you have both of our crit. chances set too low. That said, once those things are corrected, your build comes out on top by ~5.5% – kudos to the Omnom. I’ll admit when I’m wrong, and give credit where it is due…your build will out damage mine by ~5.5% over time. That said, I don’t run Mango Pie for the damage…I run it for the more reliable healing. What if your opponent dodges/blinks/shadowsteps/stealths/CC’s you and begins to kite? The whole time you’re running around, you’re not doing damage, nor are you receiving heals. THAT is where the Mango Pie shines, and it’s why I run it. IMO, my most vulnerable times are when I’m taking damage and am too far away from my opponent to attack or CnD him for stealth/healing. Mango Pie helps with this.

The entire premise of my build is to scrutinize the Thief class and try to patch up as many “holes” as I can find. Thieves typically have poor condition removal, so I take the condition removal on stealth trait. Thieves are squishy, so I spec for more Toughness and run Mango Pie for constant healing that cannot be interrupted. That is the way I approach things.

(edited 2013-06-21 12:05:52 by aarias.4016)

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Posted by: aarias.4016