By FAR the Best Thief build VIABLE.
Max damage modifier: 1.5307 [DA[above 50% health)], 1.8368 [DA(below 50% health)], 1.5307 [CS(above 50% health)], 1.3915 [CS(below 50% health)]
You might want to recalculate since DA gets a +10% damage modifier regardless of targets health as long as the target has a condition. Thus the Mug damage above 50% health will have a 10% boost since the poison is applied prior to the Mug damage.
I already factored that in.
Exposed Weakness (1.1) * Staff Mastery (1.1) * Bound (1.1) * Lead Attacks (1.15) = 1.5307. The above 50% is with Executioner (1.2) * 1.5307 = 1.8368.
Then how did 1.5307 [CS(above 50% health)] came to be the same as DA with Exposed Weakness?
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.
Max damage modifier: 1.5307 [DA[above 50% health)], 1.8368 [DA(below 50% health)], 1.5307 [CS(above 50% health)], 1.3915 [CS(below 50% health)]
You might want to recalculate since DA gets a +10% damage modifier regardless of targets health as long as the target has a condition. Thus the Mug damage above 50% health will have a 10% boost since the poison is applied prior to the Mug damage.
I already factored that in.
Exposed Weakness (1.1) * Staff Mastery (1.1) * Bound (1.1) * Lead Attacks (1.15) = 1.5307. The above 50% is with Executioner (1.2) * 1.5307 = 1.8368.bruh. replace ‘’points for D/P’’ with ‘’points for staff’’
Astounding logic there. To pick one, let’s give points to staff for headshot. Headshot is of course a strength of staff. Very good.
Also i have tested the difference in dmg output enough. I see with my own eyes that CS sometimes gives me 10k vault with this build. and with DA max i have seen was 7k
I’ve landed 9-10k back stabs on cele reapers, 10k back stabs on warriors, 11.7k back stabs on marauder scrappers and been hit with 15k vaults. All with and by Deadly Arts. Although simply stating this out of context doesn’t mean much, just like it doesn’t when you do.
thats impossible m8. else I would have experienced that also. i dont even hit that much in WvW with foods etc
Roxas aka best thief EU
aka male model status demi god alpha facial aesthetics/10
Max damage modifier: 1.5307 [DA[above 50% health)], 1.8368 [DA(below 50% health)], 1.5307 [CS(above 50% health)], 1.3915 [CS(below 50% health)]
You might want to recalculate since DA gets a +10% damage modifier regardless of targets health as long as the target has a condition. Thus the Mug damage above 50% health will have a 10% boost since the poison is applied prior to the Mug damage.
I already factored that in.
Exposed Weakness (1.1) * Staff Mastery (1.1) * Bound (1.1) * Lead Attacks (1.15) = 1.5307. The above 50% is with Executioner (1.2) * 1.5307 = 1.8368.Then how did *1.5307 [CS(above 50% health)]* came to be the same as DA with Exposed Weakness?
Oops, I forgot the grandmaster minor in CS was +10% to critical damage only instead of all damage. This makes the DPS for CS in my calculations incorrect. It should be lower.
Edit: Corrected it in the earlier post. The difference was only a 22 DPS reduction; small, as would be imagined when using a high crit chance.
http://www.twitch.tv/impact2780
(edited by Impact.2780)
thats impossible m8. else I would have experienced that also. i dont even hit that much in WvW with foods etc
I have nothing to gain from lying. All my points stand without my comment about a 15k vault, and I don’t even use DA Staff, I use D/P. Nor am I defending “my weapon set” to a fault; I mained S/D for over a year, and a month after the specialisation patch, and the playstyle of it back then remains my favourite – not because I was an acro dodge spammer, I was 10/30/0/0/30, until the vigor nerf forced me into acro and then I went D/P for my team.
http://www.twitch.tv/impact2780
@Impact.2780: also recheck you fury uptime assumption.
That’s not the full assumption. Also to consider is stealing fury with bountiful theft, being granted fury by allies that can, when they can, and that your boons are equally subjected to removal/corruption by necromancers, revenants, other thieves, and – since I’ve seen more of them lately – shatter mesmers.
So many sources, so many variables, I deem it close enough to the same up-time that I set them both to 100%. Why 100% and not the likely lower value for both? Because I’m making a point, and CS is stronger the more crit chance it has, so I thought it fitting to give it the advantage in the comparison in an attempt to make my argument stronger when DA still came out on top.
http://www.twitch.tv/impact2780
Why 100% and not the likely lower value for both? Because I’m making a point, and CS is stronger the more crit chance it has, so I thought it fitting to give it the advantage in the comparison in an attempt to make my argument stronger when DA still came out on top.
But that’s not true though. DA doesn’t have a 100% fury uptime. Making it 100% actually favors DA.
You’re also missing the Practiced Tolerance conversion in your calculation since with a 68.52% crit chance meaning that CS’s Ferocity is way over 218.5%. (I get 230% at 56% crit chance with 2000 Prec).
In my experience, your numbers are way off — CS brings more damage output than that. Ever since we can no longer get Power from the DA trait line, I dropped it and favored CS.
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.
(edited by Sir Vincent III.1286)
Why 100% and not the likely lower value for both? Because I’m making a point, and CS is stronger the more crit chance it has, so I thought it fitting to give it the advantage in the comparison in an attempt to make my argument stronger when DA still came out on top.
But that’s not true though. DA doesn’t have a 100% fury uptime. Making it 100% actually favors DA.
You’re also missing the Practiced Tolerance conversion in your calculation since with a 68.52% crit chance meaning that CS’s Ferocity is way over 218.5%. (I get 230% at 56% crit chance with 2000 Prec).
In my experience, your numbers are way off -- CS brings more damage output than that. Ever since we can no longer get Power from the DA trait line, I dropped it and favored CS.
DA doesn’t grant 100% fury up time alone, no. In fact, it doesn’t grant any. If the builds each ran one trait line only, you’d have a point, but they don’t. The build posted does not run thrill of the crime or bountiful theft. If you’re running DA, you do run thrill of the crime, and I would use bountiful theft. That gives DA 2 sources of 50% fury up-time and potential to steal fury, vs CS’s 1 source of fury and 1 source that extends it. Give consideration to boon removal, corruption, and that some allies may grant it. These combined variables make comparing the true up-time in practice impossible, especially since it’ll be different in different matches. Therefore, it can be reasonably assumed that fury up-time will most likely be the same, if not extremely similar - talking 1-2 seconds here - and remember there will be moments where you’re not attacking or landing hits anyway. For CS, those moments are also periods in which fury is not being extended by no quarter.
So no, 100% uptime for a simplified comparison instead of say, 80% uptime for both, favours CS, not DA. If you’re still not convinced, remember that CS only grants that extra 250 ferocity while under the effects of fury. So in the realistic scenario where it has periods without fury, it loses 250 of that ferocity I factored in as permanent.
I did not miss the precision to ferocity conversion. Without it, critical damage is the same at 187.3%. With it, it is 201.8%, which you can even see in the OP’s screen shot. Add the 250 ferocity next, and it becomes 218.5%. If you have higher than this, you are not using the same build, or are not inside heart of the mists.
Edit: Oh and for the staff builds I didn’t include havoc mastery since that wasn’t in the build posted, but with DA, you would probably take it. Due to the two extra damage modifiers, and how damage modifiers are applied, havoc mastery would increase the damage of a DA thief more than it would for a CS thief.
http://www.twitch.tv/impact2780
(edited by Impact.2780)
Why 100% and not the likely lower value for both? Because I’m making a point, and CS is stronger the more crit chance it has, so I thought it fitting to give it the advantage in the comparison in an attempt to make my argument stronger when DA still came out on top.
But that’s not true though. DA doesn’t have a 100% fury uptime. Making it 100% actually favors DA.
You’re also missing the Practiced Tolerance conversion in your calculation since with a 68.52% crit chance meaning that CS’s Ferocity is way over 218.5%. (I get 230% at 56% crit chance with 2000 Prec).
In my experience, your numbers are way off — CS brings more damage output than that. Ever since we can no longer get Power from the DA trait line, I dropped it and favored CS.
DA doesn’t grant 100% fury up time alone, no. In fact, it doesn’t grant any. If the builds each ran one trait line only, you’d have a point, but they don’t. The build posted does not run thrill of the crime or bountiful theft. If you’re running DA, you do run thrill of the crime, and I would use bountiful theft. That gives DA 2 sources of 50% fury up-time and potential to steal fury, vs CS’s 1 source of fury and 1 source that extends it. Give consideration to boon removal, corruption, and that some allies may grant it. These combined variables make comparing the true up-time in practice impossible, especially since it’ll be different in different matches. Therefore, it can be reasonably assumed that fury up-time will most likely be the same, if not extremely similar – talking 1-2 seconds here – and remember there will be moments where you’re not attacking or landing hits anyway. For CS, those moments are also periods in which fury is not being extended by no quarter.
Then your whole calculation is misleading since you are factoring Trick traits to make DA look good. You’re basically comparing CS vs DA+Trick. :/
Also the fact that the build specs for Signet of Power which gives 5 stacks of might plus the lower CDR for signet is not part of your calculation.
So no, 100% uptime for a simplified comparison instead of say, 80% uptime for both, favours CS, not DA. If you’re still not convinced, remember that CS only grants that extra 250 ferocity while under the effects of fury. So in the realistic scenario where it has periods without fury, it loses 250 of that ferocity I factored in as permanent.
Not necessarily true. If CS has Trick just like DA has Trick, CS will have 100% Fury uptime because of Haste (Flanking Strikes). What’s not fair in your assessment is that you’re giving DA the benefit of Thrill but deny the benefit of Haste from CS. As I mentioned above, the build also have Signet of Power that gives 5 stacks of might to the build, which was not factored in.
I did not miss the precision to ferocity conversion. Without it, critical damage is the same at 187.3%. With it, it is 201.8%, which you can even see in the OP’s screen shot. Add the 250 ferocity next, and it becomes 218.5%. If you have higher than this, you are not using the same build, or are not inside heart of the mists.
Ah, ok makes sense. I was using a Scholar+Beserker that’s why. However, as I mentioned above, there’s more to this build that were not represented in your calculations.
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.
snip
I’m hardly factoring in Trickery traits "to make DA look good." If it looks good it’s because it is, and that is my point. I’m being realistic, build vs. build. DA build vs. CS build. Different trait lines work better with different trait options. You wouldn’t say "trait line A can’t compete with trait line B because even though it works better with trait C.1, the build for B uses C.2 so that is what must be taken with it, resulting in a less effective build," and call is sound reasoning. Besides, give those same trickery traits to the CS build if you want, and you get more fury applications, sure, but those applications will often overlap, and are just as likely to be removed, corrupted and stolen as without the extra few seconds.
Haste is a gimmick, and hard to account for. Revealed training is not a gimmick but also hard to account for when seeking an average value for a simple comparison. Signets of Power I did miss.
http://www.twitch.tv/impact2780
snip
I’m hardly factoring in Trickery traits “to make DA look good.” If it looks good it’s because it is, and that is my point. I’m being realistic, build vs. build. DA build vs. CS build. Different trait lines work better with different trait options. You wouldn’t say “trait line A can’t compete with trait line B because even though it works better with trait C.1, the build for B uses C.2 so that is what must be taken with it, resulting in a less effective build,” and call is sound reasoning. Besides, give those same trickery traits to the CS build if you want, and you get more fury applications, sure, but those applications will often overlap, and are just as likely to be removed, corrupted and stolen as without the extra few seconds.
Haste is a gimmick, and hard to account for. Revealed training is not a gimmick but also hard to account for when seeking an average value for a simple comparison. Signets of Power I did miss.
If I’m using this build, I would use Bound to position myself to be on the side or back to trigger Haste then use Inf Signet to trigger the 5 stacks of might. This will give me 6s of Fury and 5 stacks of might for 10s. The DPS output of this initial engagement is already high because the Fury buff also gives me additional 250 Ferocity. My next Vault with all these buff will deal so much damage compare to what I’ll get with DA. Using Vault+Bound 3 times and finish off with Impact Strike will guarantee a kill.
I used to spec DA, but I can never get that kind of result with it, albeit I acknowledge that Executioner is very needed against bunkers.
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.
The thing with staff is vault is the most kittening predictable skill to see coming. The mobility you get from D/P along with easy blind, stealth from powder, headshot, along with shadow shot your target will have a hard time shaking you.
Staff is not bad by any means, but it is a lot easier to predict than D/P. IMHO
@Impact.2780: also recheck you fury uptime assumption.
That’s not the full assumption. Also to consider is stealing fury with bountiful theft, being granted fury by allies that can, when they can, and that your boons are equally subjected to removal/corruption by necromancers, revenants, other thieves, and – since I’ve seen more of them lately – shatter mesmers.
So many sources, so many variables, I deem it close enough to the same up-time that I set them both to 100%. Why 100% and not the likely lower value for both? Because I’m making a point, and CS is stronger the more crit chance it has, so I thought it fitting to give it the advantage in the comparison in an attempt to make my argument stronger when DA still came out on top.
you are absolutely right
giving the same crit chance even without calculating will favor DA over CS as DA buff you direct dmg while CS buff you crit dmg
also you dont need calculate bonus dmg from other trait line as they are the same
you forget to mention poison dmg and less healing to favor the DA over CS
also sometime steal is bug or dodged so no dmg as well
in real fight you cant maintain perma fury with DA. you get it when you steal 10 sec and when you hit with rune 25% chance 10 sec every 30 sec
so unless you w8ing to both to recharge you have 50% time fury thus i think you should take 77% crit chance and not 86%.
and if you w8ing it to recharge even if DA does more dmg you Sdps getting lower as you dont attack or do low dmg
while with CS even if you’ve been rip the fury with NQ is up easily so you can maintain it thus having 100% crit chance more easy
regarding crit dmg 218% is the max which shown and there is 10% which is not shown but is factored (3rd minor trait)
all i can say i do more dmg with CS than DA in average. sure if i am lucky or w8ing for steal recharge DA will do more short burst but staff is not like dp set as you dont have stealth so you must pressure all time
The thing with staff is vault is the most kittening predictable skill to see coming. The mobility you get from D/P along with easy blind, stealth from powder, headshot, along with shadow shot your target will have a hard time shaking you.
Staff is not bad by any means, but it is a lot easier to predict than D/P. IMHO
staff is not dp
dp – single target mainly, raoming… take out the weak and fast
staff – more team fight 2v2, 3v3 etc.. do aoe dmg when needed help to burst enemies down while pressure the other
hard to compare like f16 f18 f35 etc..
and to sum it up
i dont think there is must choise here as if it were it would push anet and player to dump CS or the nerf DA (or maybe now to buff CS)
DA gives more control with immobilize, weakness, poison and executioner
CS gives more crit dmg and fury
if i am a team player with staff and my team has necro (so weakness and poison) CS will be better. if my team lack them and immobilize than DA is needed more
Counter to this build: AoE & Properly timed interrupts. Anyone who knows Vaults Evadeframe will be able to completely shut you down. If that person is also capable of rotating between their close/mid, you’re useless to your team in al ways possible.
This is a fun build to play up until Ruby, after that you’re probably going to need to make better use of the other skills on your toolbar because Vault/Bound spam will get you killed against any decent group of players.
EDIT:
Also, the stream isn’t particularly worth it… Seems like a guy with an ego too big for HotM, posing as TCG/oRNG player (albeit with trollnames, kitten ) having a moderate success against players of relatively low skill.
Counter to this build: AoE & Properly timed interrupts. Anyone who knows Vaults Evadeframe will be able to completely shut you down. If that person is also capable of rotating between their close/mid, you’re useless to your team in al ways possible.
doesnt AoE & Properly timed interrupts will destroy any thief build ? d/p has stealth so it much worst as he will loss the cap….
Anyone who knows PB +HS use frame will be able to completely shut you down
so … again thief is in a bad spot atm . thus this argue is not about dp or staff rather by build
cs > da in pure dmg
cs > da in pure dmg
lmao did you hear this vornollo guy? prove him wrong bruh. confirm im best eu.
Roxas aka best thief EU
aka male model status demi god alpha facial aesthetics/10
Counter to this build: AoE & Properly timed interrupts. Anyone who knows Vaults Evadeframe will be able to completely shut you down. If that person is also capable of rotating between their close/mid, you’re useless to your team in al ways possible.
This is a fun build to play up until Ruby, after that you’re probably going to need to make better use of the other skills on your toolbar because Vault/Bound spam will get you killed against any decent group of players.
Just because a Thief spec’d for Bound and uses Staff doesn’t necessarily mean that they will spam both. That’s a little short-sighted don’t you think?
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.
Having played against multiple Staff Thieves I can easily attest that Vault is a terrible, terrible ability when the person you are playing against has even the slightest bit of skill / reaction time. It is HIGHLY telegraphed, and an absolute joke to dodge. Sure, it has great “team fight potential” because, ya know, lets bring Thief into a team fight and expect it not to get blown up.
I don’t even play ranked PVP, but I would just simply suggest that you take the mathematics into account here. That person kindly presented you with the math and you were like “lel staff op kittens sumthing gg”
How does that provide anything to the conversation here? How does that progress your build or your play-style or anything else for that matter?
I recommend sitting down one day and trying to learn from others around you, especially those who play D/P or even Staff in high rank, and people who are kind enough to present mathematical evidence that CS is sub-par.
I don’t even play ranked PVP, but I would just simply suggest that you take the mathematics into account here. That person kindly presented you with the math and you were like “lel staff op kittens sumthing gg”
The Math is questionable if you follow the conversation.
How does that provide anything to the conversation here?
What it provides is the fact that the calculation was flawed and that the build shown by the OP remains true to his claims.
The Math comparison of DA vs CS might favor DA only because there are many factor that were standardized to make the illustration less complex. The simple fact about the Fury uptime shows that the simplification of the Math favors DA on paper, but not in practice.
Ever since DA no longer offer Power, it became a trait line for condition builds regardless of how awesome Mug and Executioner are. In most cases, Improvisation is a better pick than Exec.
How does that progress your build or your play-style or anything else for that matter?
Unfortunately the Math failed to do so because of many facts that were not included in the calculation. If the calculation accounted for Signet of Power, CS blows DA out of the water when it comes to damage output. Nothing in DA that can grant 5 stacks of Might.
I recommend sitting down one day and trying to learn from others around you, especially those who play D/P or even Staff in high rank, and people who are kind enough to present mathematical evidence that CS is sub-par.
The problem is, even with the Math provided, it failed to prove that CS is sub-par other than jumping to a conclusion based solely on personal opinion.
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.
snip
I’m hardly factoring in Trickery traits “to make DA look good.” If it looks good it’s because it is, and that is my point. I’m being realistic, build vs. build. DA build vs. CS build. Different trait lines work better with different trait options. You wouldn’t say “trait line A can’t compete with trait line B because even though it works better with trait C.1, the build for B uses C.2 so that is what must be taken with it, resulting in a less effective build,” and call is sound reasoning. Besides, give those same trickery traits to the CS build if you want, and you get more fury applications, sure, but those applications will often overlap, and are just as likely to be removed, corrupted and stolen as without the extra few seconds.
Haste is a gimmick, and hard to account for. Revealed training is not a gimmick but also hard to account for when seeking an average value for a simple comparison. Signets of Power I did miss.
If I’m using this build, I would use Bound to position myself to be on the side or back to trigger Haste then use Inf Signet to trigger the 5 stacks of might. This will give me 6s of Fury and 5 stacks of might for 10s. The DPS output of this initial engagement is already high because the Fury buff also gives me additional 250 Ferocity. My next Vault with all these buff will deal so much damage compare to what I’ll get with DA. Using Vault+Bound 3 times and finish off with Impact Strike will guarantee a kill.
I used to spec DA, but I can never get that kind of result with it, albeit I acknowledge that Executioner is very needed against bunkers.
Listing a skill chain and saying it’ll guarantee a kill is almost completely meaningless. You can’t assume the player won’t dodge or use defensive abilities to shut you down or nullify your damage while you pose a high threat, and then with the amount of AoE damage and crowd control going on, and the fact that that it’s a team game, you can’t expect to be allowed to freecast your combo anyway. Any half decent team fighter will see their ally being heavily focused, and lend some aid be it cc, supportive abilities, weakness to you, etc.
While this is also true regardless of build you’re running, the point is if you build to have a telegraphed moment of high damage capability, that is the window the other players will use survival skills to mitigate it. Whereas if your damage is high throughout the fight, a period of mitigation won’t be as harmful, because you’re not dealing less damage during the other times in order to have had that “high damage moment”. Nevertheless, DA would still have higher DPS with no might than CS would with 5 stacks.
http://www.twitch.tv/impact2780
snip
I’m hardly factoring in Trickery traits “to make DA look good.” If it looks good it’s because it is, and that is my point. I’m being realistic, build vs. build. DA build vs. CS build. Different trait lines work better with different trait options. You wouldn’t say “trait line A can’t compete with trait line B because even though it works better with trait C.1, the build for B uses C.2 so that is what must be taken with it, resulting in a less effective build,” and call is sound reasoning. Besides, give those same trickery traits to the CS build if you want, and you get more fury applications, sure, but those applications will often overlap, and are just as likely to be removed, corrupted and stolen as without the extra few seconds.
Haste is a gimmick, and hard to account for. Revealed training is not a gimmick but also hard to account for when seeking an average value for a simple comparison. Signets of Power I did miss.
If I’m using this build, I would use Bound to position myself to be on the side or back to trigger Haste then use Inf Signet to trigger the 5 stacks of might. This will give me 6s of Fury and 5 stacks of might for 10s. The DPS output of this initial engagement is already high because the Fury buff also gives me additional 250 Ferocity. My next Vault with all these buff will deal so much damage compare to what I’ll get with DA. Using Vault+Bound 3 times and finish off with Impact Strike will guarantee a kill.
I used to spec DA, but I can never get that kind of result with it, albeit I acknowledge that Executioner is very needed against bunkers.
Listing a skill chain and saying it’ll guarantee a kill is almost completely meaningless. You can’t assume the player won’t dodge or use defensive abilities to shut you down or nullify your damage while you pose a high threat, and then with the amount of AoE damage and crowd control going on, and the fact that that it’s a team game, you can’t expect to be allowed to freecast your combo anyway. Any half decent team fighter will see their ally being heavily focused, and lend some aid be it cc, supportive abilities, weakness to you, etc.
While this is also true regardless of build you’re running, the point is if you build to have a telegraphed moment of high damage capability, that is the window the other players will use survival skills to mitigate it. Whereas if your damage is high throughout the fight, a period of mitigation won’t be as harmful, because you’re not dealing less damage during the other times in order to have had that “high damage moment”. Nevertheless, DA would still have higher DPS with no might than CS would with 5 stacks.
You misunderstood, there is no combo here and any skills are susceptible to interrupt and mitigation whether you’re running DA or CS. You can do things in any order you want in this build. The fact that the damage output necessitates a response of any kind, may it be mitigation or interrupt, proves that this build can hurt — a lot. You’ve kinda proved that point in your response.
DA without 5 stacks of might and no way to maintain 100% Fury uptime is doubtful to have higher DPS than CS. I’ve used your Math and the result disagrees with you.
With 6 stacks of Might @ 50% uptime (5 from SoP and 1 from Rune), the effective Power of CS is 2315. The CS’s DPS goes to 2919 DPS. Factor in Havoc Mastery it’s 3123 DPS. Factor in Haste it’s 4379 DPS. Factor in both HM and Haste it’s 4685 DPS.
I don’t see how DA can remotely beat that.
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.
I just like to point out, that in current meta several classes causing problem to this “guaranteed kill” bs. If OP had any decent success in leagues (mean legendary div at this moment already) he would know that:
Bunker mes will laugh at damage with blocks, invul, distort, cc chain etc
Scrapper will escape with S proc ending in stealth gyro, or even fave the damage with block and cc
Tempest will kitten you up with shocking aura, #4 line in earth, cc field and others, also don’t forget 40% from perma protection.
Druid will screw damage with auto weakness proc (which hurts cs more), also Druid hurls a lot of random cc+blinds, which is completely shuts down vaults.
Revenant will taunt your burst, or survive it via crystal hibernation, UA and countless dodges in any meta build
Dragonhunter will counter you with traps’ dazes, random cc and blocks
Reaper will just eat your damage which is charging his DS, and laugh at you, chilled and weakened to death.
Thief will shadowstep our and interrupt you.
Warrior is just warrior.
Don’t forget the fact that you have to really hit your vaults which is not easy vs decent players.
Don’t forget the fact that after your so called burst you left without any initiative.
In the end, problem is not in downing the enemy but within inability to secure stomp in this meta, if you don’t aim impact strike well.
Time will teach you mate. Practice makes perfect.
The Math is questionable if you follow the conversation.
Any calculation is questionable when its done off of estimated figures. The estimation, in this case, is mandatory because it can’t be accurately translated from practice. The only way to strengthen its credibility is with accompanied reasoning, of which I have provided plenty.
Yet still, there are some who make an appeal to ignorance and declare because it’s taking into account a broad range of possibilities and not a conclusion based on solid 100%-correct-for-every-individual-scenario-figures, that they can’t or won’t accept it, and their own conclusion, which they view as accurate because they do not even consider the vast number of variables, must be correct. Of course they don’t use this wording when they present their conclusion, but instead, offer words like “nah no wai u rong my way is best way yah kno bro.”
Then there are some which try to argue more intellectually, but instead of focus on the reasoning as a whole – because after all, conclusions are formed by a collaboration of multiple arguments – pick out a little thing from one single argument, challenge it, suddenly seeming to forget the numerous other contributing arguments and reasoning which cover and or account for it, even when that challenge itself is questionable.
Due to the nature, the challenges are just as questionable as the presented figures and assumptions. Just because something can be challenged doesn’t make it weaker than alternatives or immediately incorrect. Estimation and reason is how you pick the best values to work with, not pointing a figure and shouting “inaccurate!” Here, anything that isn’t a stat is “inaccurate.” If everything was accurate, it wouldn’t be an estimation now, would it? The best you can do in such cases, is reason some estimates, and then use them as if you were in a controlled scenario such as vs a single target that doesn’t move or use any skills, and starts with full health, in order to present some loose figures to go with more worded reasoning to back up your side of the argument.
Let’s go slow and explore that. There is no way to truly tell how long targets will remain above or below 50% health! The calculations uses half and half, but this is never going to be the case, is it? So you offer some words of reason for either side, such as:
- CS does more damage to targets above 50% health, and less damage to targets below 50% health, so they will have an easier job of healing back to that 50% threshold, especially when they burn more of their defensive abilities and receive more allied support the lower they get. They will likely spend most of their time above 50% health, making CS better.
- DA will have a harder time getting the target down below 50%, but if it saves a bit of burst until they are close to that threshold, dropping them below it will be easier. Besides, you also have allies. Once below 50% health, DA applies more damage and pressure, making it harder for the target to heal up past the 50% threshold. Once a target gets low, more players focus it, which will keep it below 50% health, making DA better for damage, and since the next threshold down is downed state, making DA better for getting kills. If the target does heal up, by that time another target will often be below the threshold, and a well coordinated target shift onto the unsuspecting player will drop them, still making DA better.
- If the DA thief is also D/P instead of staff, poison will be further reducing incoming healing by 33% when they try to heal up above 50% health. This not only keeps them below the threshold easier, but effectively denies the target health it would otherwise have to damage through, so while it has visibly smaller numbers and a smaller damage out stat at the end, it is because there was less health to get through, and it got the kills faster.
Again, the figures, which as previously stated were set in favour of the side that would fall short in order to strengthen the resulting conclusion that it fell short. The figures alone do not conclude because they are not accurate enough to, so picking on a small part of it is like trying to knock down a building by scratching at one brick – buildings don’t fall because one brick suffered some erosion. They are evidence for an argument leading to a conclusion. The accompanied reasoning to justify the figures as “good estimates” for use in the calculation is only an argument over the use of those figures. Attacking that only attempts to challenge some of the chosen figures. It does not undermine the result of the calculation, or challenge the conclusion. The accompanied points about things that can’t be factored in to an equation, which favoured DA, and should also be taken into account when interpreting the results which also favoured DA, are another part of the argument which were dismissed by one of those appeals to ignorance. Other than that, they are “suddenly forgotten.”
http://www.twitch.tv/impact2780
You misunderstood, there is no combo here
Actually, you misunderstood.
I would use Bound to position myself to be on the side or back to trigger Haste then use Inf Signet to trigger the 5 stacks of might. This will give me 6s of Fury and 5 stacks of might for 10s.
This is a combo. A combo is a combination or chain of skills. Bound, gain buffs, Infiltrator’s Signet, gain buff, attack with buffs. How you “attack with buffs” is irrelevant, but they are a chained, intended to make the most of those buffs.
Arguing over this little thing is not only pointless, but ridiculous. There is clearly a combo.
any skills are susceptible to interrupt and mitigation whether you’re running DA or CS.
Yeah… I’ll just quote myself.
While this is also true regardless of build you’re running, the point is if you build to have a telegraphed moment of high damage capability, that is the window the other players will use survival skills to mitigate it. Whereas if your damage is high throughout the fight, a period of mitigation won’t be as harmful, because you’re not dealing less damage during the other times in order to have had that “high damage moment”. Nevertheless, DA would still have higher DPS with no might than CS would with 5 stacks.
The fact that the damage output necessitates a response of any kind, may it be mitigation or interrupt, proves that this build can hurt — a lot. You’ve kinda proved that point in your response.
Yeah…. And I didn’t say DA didn’t hurt a lot either now did I? Speak to me of flaws, this is the “missing the point” flaw. You’d get the same defensive response with DA as well. Any damaging build in fact. The point is if a significant part of the DPS is concentrated to a small period, the loss of damage pressure will be huge when defensive skills are used in response for that period. The only difference is when they will be used, not whether they will be used.
DA without 5 stacks of might and no way to maintain 100% Fury uptime is doubtful to have higher DPS than CS. I’ve used your Math and the result disagrees with you.
With 6 stacks of Might @ 50% uptime (5 from SoP and 1 from Rune), the effective Power of CS is 2315. The CS’s DPS goes to 2919 DPS. Factor in Havoc Mastery it’s 3123 DPS. Factor in Haste it’s 4379 DPS. Factor in both HM and Haste it’s 4685 DPS.
I don’t see how DA can remotely beat that.
I’ve said all I need to about fury for DA. In practice it can no better maintain 100% up-time alone than CS can, unless CS takes thrill of the crime as well, which will not result in the full benefit because these traits and runs granting fury can – and do – overlap and go on cool down together. I actually got 3014 DPS factoring in 6 stacks of might. You could indeed factor in havoc mastery, but that then factors in no ability to apply weakness, which results in less survivability, which results in less stay power and less damage in practice.
That last figure is rich with flaws. DPS is damage over time. You have clearly fallen victim to the flaw of generalisation; you find it raises DPS in a short window, and then generalise that value to apply throughout all periods of combat. This is of course false. That, or you missed that the values I produced were averages, and that the value you gave with haste taken into account is far from an average.
Not to mention, as already stated, haste is a gimmick, and is less reliable than revealed training with D/P which I didn’t deem reliable enough to factor into the calculation. There’s also the fact I left unsaid that there is no tell for when it is ready to trigger again, so it won’t always be used to burst. It could activate when you’re escaping and not in a position to attack, or when you’re in shortbow, or simply not in a position to make use of it. So not only can it not be taken into account in an equation, but it is unreliable in practice. Like I said: gimmick.
http://www.twitch.tv/impact2780
From my experience CS > DA in terms of damage by a good margin. What hurts is the lack of mug lotus poison and panic strike. It’s basically trading utility and survivability for ~15% or more damage.
As for DP vs staff I prefer DP. I think DP is better single target and for finishing off while staff is more effective in group fights for all around pressure.
Went to the stream and he just argued with pugs over stupid stuff while standing around in the middle of a game, then YOLOed into AoE. So hard to find decent streams of PvP…
Just watch Sindernerr He’s pretty solid.
http://www.twitch.tv/sindrenerr
Just watch Sindernerr He’s pretty solid.
http://www.twitch.tv/sindrenerr
I’ll check it out. Thanks.
The Math is questionable if you follow the conversation.
Any calculation is questionable when its done off of estimated figures. The estimation, in this case, is mandatory because it can’t be accurately translated from practice. The only way to strengthen its credibility is with accompanied reasoning, of which I have provided plenty.
Yet still, there are some who make an appeal to ignorance and declare because it’s taking into account a broad range of possibilities and not a conclusion based on solid 100%-correct-for-every-individual-scenario-figures, that they can’t or won’t accept it, and their own conclusion, which they view as accurate because they do not even consider the vast number of variables, must be correct. Of course they don’t use this wording when they present their conclusion, but instead, offer words like “nah no wai u rong my way is best way yah kno bro.”
Then there are some which try to argue more intellectually, but instead of focus on the reasoning as a whole – because after all, conclusions are formed by a collaboration of multiple arguments – pick out a little thing from one single argument, challenge it, suddenly seeming to forget the numerous other contributing arguments and reasoning which cover and or account for it, even when that challenge itself is questionable.
Due to the nature, the challenges are just as questionable as the presented figures and assumptions. Just because something can be challenged doesn’t make it weaker than alternatives or immediately incorrect. Estimation and reason is how you pick the best values to work with, not pointing a figure and shouting “inaccurate!” Here, anything that isn’t a stat is “inaccurate.” If everything was accurate, it wouldn’t be an estimation now, would it? The best you can do in such cases, is reason some estimates, and then use them as if you were in a controlled scenario such as vs a single target that doesn’t move or use any skills, and starts with full health, in order to present some loose figures to go with more worded reasoning to back up your side of the argument.
Let’s go slow and explore that. There is no way to truly tell how long targets will remain above or below 50% health! The calculations uses half and half, but this is never going to be the case, is it? So you offer some words of reason for either side, such as:
- CS does more damage to targets above 50% health, and less damage to targets below 50% health, so they will have an easier job of healing back to that 50% threshold, especially when they burn more of their defensive abilities and receive more allied support the lower they get. They will likely spend most of their time above 50% health, making CS better.
- DA will have a harder time getting the target down below 50%, but if it saves a bit of burst until they are close to that threshold, dropping them below it will be easier. Besides, you also have allies. Once below 50% health, DA applies more damage and pressure, making it harder for the target to heal up past the 50% threshold. Once a target gets low, more players focus it, which will keep it below 50% health, making DA better for damage, and since the next threshold down is downed state, making DA better for getting kills. If the target does heal up, by that time another target will often be below the threshold, and a well coordinated target shift onto the unsuspecting player will drop them, still making DA better.
- If the DA thief is also D/P instead of staff, poison will be further reducing incoming healing by 33% when they try to heal up above 50% health. This not only keeps them below the threshold easier, but effectively denies the target health it would otherwise have to damage through, so while it has visibly smaller numbers and a smaller damage out stat at the end, it is because there was less health to get through, and it got the kills faster.
Again, the figures, which as previously stated were set in favour of the side that would fall short in order to strengthen the resulting conclusion that it fell short. The figures alone do not conclude because they are not accurate enough to, so picking on a small part of it is like trying to knock down a building by scratching at one brick – buildings don’t fall because one brick suffered some erosion. They are evidence for an argument leading to a conclusion. The accompanied reasoning to justify the figures as “good estimates” for use in the calculation is only an argument over the use of those figures. Attacking that only attempts to challenge some of the chosen figures. It does not undermine the result of the calculation, or challenge the conclusion. The accompanied points about things that can’t be factored in to an equation, which favoured DA, and should also be taken into account when interpreting the results which also favoured DA, are another part of the argument which were dismissed by one of those appeals to ignorance. Other than that, they are “suddenly forgotten.”
The statement you quoted shows that you’re arguing about something that is not there. “The Math is questionable if you follow the conversation” meaning the reasoning is flawed. All these things you’ve just posted has nothing to do with what the statement you quoted is addressing. The flaw in your reasoning is that you’ve left out key factors in your Math thus you’ve arrived at a conclusion not representative of your entire calculation, thus your estimates are hardly believable.
Sure you can argue that Haste is a gimmick and Weakness will result in less DPS if CS pick HM, but that’s the problem with your reasoning; you give the benefit of HM to DA even though it will suffer the same fate as CS if it didn’t take Weakening instead, yet you deny it from CS. That’s really pathetic. If you would apply HM to DA, you should also apply it to CS — your whole reasoning became questionable when you refused to do this. If HM is exclusive to DA, then sure, why not, apply it to DA only but that is not the case here.
You might think that Haste is a gimmick but it is essential to this build to quickly bring the target below 50% HP. Leaving it out is just irresponsible.
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.
You misunderstood, there is no combo here
Actually, you misunderstood.
I would use Bound to position myself to be on the side or back to trigger Haste then use Inf Signet to trigger the 5 stacks of might. This will give me 6s of Fury and 5 stacks of might for 10s.
This is a combo. A combo is a combination or chain of skills. Bound, gain buffs, Infiltrator’s Signet, gain buff, attack with buffs. How you “attack with buffs” is irrelevant, but they are a chained, intended to make the most of those buffs.
A combo is something that will not work when the order of sequence is interrupted, that is not the case here. An Example of a combo is BP+HS to gain stealth. If BP gets interrupted, there is no stealth. Bound and Inf Signet are not as volatile as this. Even if you interrupted Bound, the Thief will still get 10% damage boost.
Arguing over this little thing is not only pointless, but ridiculous. There is clearly a combo.
Yet you’re arguing about it. If after playing GW2 for so long did not teach you what a combo is, then this is indeed pointless and ridiculous.
any skills are susceptible to interrupt and mitigation whether you’re running DA or CS.
Yeah… I’ll just quote myself.
While this is also true regardless of build you’re running, the point is if you build to have a telegraphed moment of high damage capability, that is the window the other players will use survival skills to mitigate it. Whereas if your damage is high throughout the fight, a period of mitigation won’t be as harmful, because you’re not dealing less damage during the other times in order to have had that “high damage moment”. Nevertheless, DA would still have higher DPS with no might than CS would with 5 stacks.
The fact that the damage output necessitates a response of any kind, may it be mitigation or interrupt, proves that this build can hurt — a lot. You’ve kinda proved that point in your response.
Yeah…. And I didn’t say DA didn’t hurt a lot either now did I? Speak to me of flaws, this is the “missing the point” flaw. You’d get the same defensive response with DA as well. Any damaging build in fact. The point is if a significant part of the DPS is concentrated to a small period, the loss of damage pressure will be huge when defensive skills are used in response for that period. The only difference is when they will be used, not whether they will be used.
Just because a burst can be mitigated or denied, doesn’t necessarily mean the target can predict when the burst will happen. You’re arguing that a flat DPS is better since a mitigation will have less effect assuming that a CS burst with Haste, Bound, HM, and 6 stacks of might can be predicted.
Any Thief who has played this long would know when to burst and when not to burst. With the example I’ve provided, using Inf Signet to engage instead of Steal reserves the Steal for interrupting any defensive skills the target is going to use.
Assuming that the burst was mitigated, it doesn’t mean that CS will suddenly lose all DPS capability. Also the fact that you’re using D/P in your argument conveniently ignores the flaw of that weapon set, that it does no DPS while in stealth. Without stealth D/P dies in seconds even when spec’d with Weakening Strikes.
DA without 5 stacks of might and no way to maintain 100% Fury uptime is doubtful to have higher DPS than CS. I’ve used your Math and the result disagrees with you.
With 6 stacks of Might @ 50% uptime (5 from SoP and 1 from Rune), the effective Power of CS is 2315. The CS’s DPS goes to 2919 DPS. Factor in Havoc Mastery it’s 3123 DPS. Factor in Haste it’s 4379 DPS. Factor in both HM and Haste it’s 4685 DPS.
I don’t see how DA can remotely beat that.
I’ve said all I need to about fury for DA. In practice it can no better maintain 100% up-time alone than CS can, unless CS takes thrill of the crime as well, which will not result in the full benefit because these traits and runs granting fury can – and do – overlap and go on cool down together. I actually got 3014 DPS factoring in 6 stacks of might. You could indeed factor in havoc mastery, but that then factors in no ability to apply weakness, which results in less survivability, which results in less stay power and less damage in practice.
DA has less staying power than CS. Even more so if DA uses D/P which going in stealth means less DPS. Even without weakness, this CS build forces the target into a defensive position meaning there will be no DPS coming from the target to worry about. This CS build uses Withdraw instead of Channeled Vigor shows that it has, in fact, a lot of survivability. Staying power is provided by the Staff which D/P lacks.
That last figure is rich with flaws. DPS is damage over time. You have clearly fallen victim to the flaw of generalisation; you find it raises DPS in a short window, and then generalise that value to apply throughout all periods of combat. This is of course false. That, or you missed that the values I produced were averages, and that the value you gave with haste taken into account is far from an average.
The results are shown in categories, not in general terms. You’re jumping to a wrong conclusion. The figures clearly show what HM and Haste can do to the CS build and in the moment of burst, it can get upto 4600 DPS for the duration of Haste.
You accuse it to be a generalization even though it’s clearly that is not the case.
Not to mention, as already stated, haste is a gimmick, and is less reliable than revealed training with D/P which I didn’t deem reliable enough to factor into the calculation.
There’s also the fact I left unsaid that there is no tell for when it is ready to trigger again, so it won’t always be used to burst. It could activate when you’re escaping and not in a position to attack, or when you’re in shortbow, or simply not in a position to make use of it. So not only can it not be taken into account in an equation, but it is unreliable in practice. Like I said: gimmick.
Haste is more reliable than RT only because you can predict it’s CD status just by looking at the signet’s CD and can easily get into position with a single Bound. RT relies on stealth that Staff has no access on. The DA build has to use D/P to gain that bonus and if BP is interrupted, the DA build is SoL. This is why many D/P builds run away from fights when they are revealed or BP was interrupted…they have no staying power, thus they have significantly less DPS.
No staying power = less DPS
Going in stealth = less DPS
Running away =less DPS
So even if you’ve calculated with an assumption that DA D/P has better DPS, the fact remains that relying on stealth results in a very low DPS output.
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.
You misunderstood, there is no combo here
Actually, you misunderstood.
I would use Bound to position myself to be on the side or back to trigger Haste then use Inf Signet to trigger the 5 stacks of might. This will give me 6s of Fury and 5 stacks of might for 10s.
This is a combo. A combo is a combination or chain of skills. Bound, gain buffs, Infiltrator’s Signet, gain buff, attack with buffs. How you “attack with buffs” is irrelevant, but they are a chained, intended to make the most of those buffs.
A combo is something that will not work when the order of sequence is interrupted, that is not the case here. An Example of a combo is BP+HS to gain stealth. If BP gets interrupted, there is no stealth. Bound and Inf Signet are not as volatile as this. Even if you interrupted Bound, the Thief will still get 10% damage boost.
Arguing over this little thing is not only pointless, but ridiculous. There is clearly a combo.
Yet you’re arguing about it. If after playing GW2 for so long did not teach you what a combo is, then this is indeed pointless and ridiculous.
any skills are susceptible to interrupt and mitigation whether you’re running DA or CS.
Yeah… I’ll just quote myself.
While this is also true regardless of build you’re running, the point is if you build to have a telegraphed moment of high damage capability, that is the window the other players will use survival skills to mitigate it. Whereas if your damage is high throughout the fight, a period of mitigation won’t be as harmful, because you’re not dealing less damage during the other times in order to have had that “high damage moment”. Nevertheless, DA would still have higher DPS with no might than CS would with 5 stacks.
The fact that the damage output necessitates a response of any kind, may it be mitigation or interrupt, proves that this build can hurt — a lot. You’ve kinda proved that point in your response.
Yeah…. And I didn’t say DA didn’t hurt a lot either now did I? Speak to me of flaws, this is the “missing the point” flaw. You’d get the same defensive response with DA as well. Any damaging build in fact. The point is if a significant part of the DPS is concentrated to a small period, the loss of damage pressure will be huge when defensive skills are used in response for that period. The only difference is when they will be used, not whether they will be used.
Just because a burst can be mitigated or denied, doesn’t necessarily mean the target can predict when the burst will happen. You’re arguing that a flat DPS is better since a mitigation will have less effect assuming that a CS burst with Haste, Bound, HM, and 6 stacks of might can be predicted.
Any Thief who has played this long would know when to burst and when not to burst. With the example I’ve provided, using Inf Signet to engage instead of Steal reserves the Steal for interrupting any defensive skills the target is going to use.
Assuming that the burst was mitigated, it doesn’t mean that CS will suddenly lose all DPS capability. Also the fact that you’re using D/P in your argument conveniently ignores the flaw of that weapon set, that it does no DPS while in stealth. Without stealth D/P dies in seconds even when spec’d with Weakening Strikes.
DA without 5 stacks of might and no way to maintain 100% Fury uptime is doubtful to have higher DPS than CS. I’ve used your Math and the result disagrees with you.
With 6 stacks of Might @ 50% uptime (5 from SoP and 1 from Rune), the effective Power of CS is 2315. The CS’s DPS goes to 2919 DPS. Factor in Havoc Mastery it’s 3123 DPS. Factor in Haste it’s 4379 DPS. Factor in both HM and Haste it’s 4685 DPS.
I don’t see how DA can remotely beat that.
I’ve said all I need to about fury for DA. In practice it can no better maintain 100% up-time alone than CS can, unless CS takes thrill of the crime as well, which will not result in the full benefit because these traits and runs granting fury can – and do – overlap and go on cool down together. I actually got 3014 DPS factoring in 6 stacks of might. You could indeed factor in havoc mastery, but that then factors in no ability to apply weakness, which results in less survivability, which results in less stay power and less damage in practice.
DA has less staying power than CS. Even more so if DA uses D/P which going in stealth means less DPS. Even without weakness, this CS build forces the target into a defensive position meaning there will be no DPS coming from the target to worry about. This CS build uses Withdraw instead of Channeled Vigor shows that it has, in fact, a lot of survivability. Staying power is provided by the Staff which D/P lacks.
That last figure is rich with flaws. DPS is damage over time. You have clearly fallen victim to the flaw of generalisation; you find it raises DPS in a short window, and then generalise that value to apply throughout all periods of combat. This is of course false. That, or you missed that the values I produced were averages, and that the value you gave with haste taken into account is far from an average.
The results are shown in categories, not in general terms. You’re jumping to a wrong conclusion. The figures clearly show what HM and Haste can do to the CS build and in the moment of burst, it can get upto 4600 DPS for the duration of Haste.
You accuse it to be a generalization even though it’s clearly that is not the case.
Not to mention, as already stated, haste is a gimmick, and is less reliable than revealed training with D/P which I didn’t deem reliable enough to factor into the calculation.
There’s also the fact I left unsaid that there is no tell for when it is ready to trigger again, so it won’t always be used to burst. It could activate when you’re escaping and not in a position to attack, or when you’re in shortbow, or simply not in a position to make use of it. So not only can it not be taken into account in an equation, but it is unreliable in practice. Like I said: gimmick.
Haste is more reliable than RT only because you can predict it’s CD status just by looking at the signet’s CD and can easily get into position with a single Bound. RT relies on stealth that Staff has no access on. The DA build has to use D/P to gain that bonus and if BP is interrupted, the DA build is SoL. This is why many D/P builds run away from fights when they are revealed or BP was interrupted…they have no staying power, thus they have significantly less DPS.
No staying power = less DPS
Going in stealth = less DPS
Running away =less DPSSo even if you’ve calculated with an assumption that DA D/P has better DPS, the fact remains that relying on stealth results in a very low DPS output.
also bruh didnt you notice i run 2 sigils. so that translates into 10 might stacks. just awaring you
Roxas aka best thief EU
aka male model status demi god alpha facial aesthetics/10
You misunderstood, there is no combo here
Actually, you misunderstood.
I would use Bound to position myself to be on the side or back to trigger Haste then use Inf Signet to trigger the 5 stacks of might. This will give me 6s of Fury and 5 stacks of might for 10s.
This is a combo. A combo is a combination or chain of skills. Bound, gain buffs, Infiltrator’s Signet, gain buff, attack with buffs. How you “attack with buffs” is irrelevant, but they are a chained, intended to make the most of those buffs.
A combo is something that will not work when the order of sequence is interrupted, that is not the case here. An Example of a combo is BP+HS to gain stealth. If BP gets interrupted, there is no stealth. Bound and Inf Signet are not as volatile as this. Even if you interrupted Bound, the Thief will still get 10% damage boost.
Arguing over this little thing is not only pointless, but ridiculous. There is clearly a combo.
Yet you’re arguing about it. If after playing GW2 for so long did not teach you what a combo is, then this is indeed pointless and ridiculous.
any skills are susceptible to interrupt and mitigation whether you’re running DA or CS.
Yeah… I’ll just quote myself.
While this is also true regardless of build you’re running, the point is if you build to have a telegraphed moment of high damage capability, that is the window the other players will use survival skills to mitigate it. Whereas if your damage is high throughout the fight, a period of mitigation won’t be as harmful, because you’re not dealing less damage during the other times in order to have had that “high damage moment”. Nevertheless, DA would still have higher DPS with no might than CS would with 5 stacks.
The fact that the damage output necessitates a response of any kind, may it be mitigation or interrupt, proves that this build can hurt — a lot. You’ve kinda proved that point in your response.
Yeah…. And I didn’t say DA didn’t hurt a lot either now did I? Speak to me of flaws, this is the “missing the point” flaw. You’d get the same defensive response with DA as well. Any damaging build in fact. The point is if a significant part of the DPS is concentrated to a small period, the loss of damage pressure will be huge when defensive skills are used in response for that period. The only difference is when they will be used, not whether they will be used.
Just because a burst can be mitigated or denied, doesn’t necessarily mean the target can predict when the burst will happen. You’re arguing that a flat DPS is better since a mitigation will have less effect assuming that a CS burst with Haste, Bound, HM, and 6 stacks of might can be predicted.
Any Thief who has played this long would know when to burst and when not to burst. With the example I’ve provided, using Inf Signet to engage instead of Steal reserves the Steal for interrupting any defensive skills the target is going to use.
Assuming that the burst was mitigated, it doesn’t mean that CS will suddenly lose all DPS capability. Also the fact that you’re using D/P in your argument conveniently ignores the flaw of that weapon set, that it does no DPS while in stealth. Without stealth D/P dies in seconds even when spec’d with Weakening Strikes.
DA without 5 stacks of might and no way to maintain 100% Fury uptime is doubtful to have higher DPS than CS. I’ve used your Math and the result disagrees with you.
With 6 stacks of Might @ 50% uptime (5 from SoP and 1 from Rune), the effective Power of CS is 2315. The CS’s DPS goes to 2919 DPS. Factor in Havoc Mastery it’s 3123 DPS. Factor in Haste it’s 4379 DPS. Factor in both HM and Haste it’s 4685 DPS.
I don’t see how DA can remotely beat that.
I’ve said all I need to about fury for DA. In practice it can no better maintain 100% up-time alone than CS can, unless CS takes thrill of the crime as well, which will not result in the full benefit because these traits and runs granting fury can – and do – overlap and go on cool down together. I actually got 3014 DPS factoring in 6 stacks of might. You could indeed factor in havoc mastery, but that then factors in no ability to apply weakness, which results in less survivability, which results in less stay power and less damage in practice.
DA has less staying power than CS. Even more so if DA uses D/P which going in stealth means less DPS. Even without weakness, this CS build forces the target into a defensive position meaning there will be no DPS coming from the target to worry about. This CS build uses Withdraw instead of Channeled Vigor shows that it has, in fact, a lot of survivability. Staying power is provided by the Staff which D/P lacks.
That last figure is rich with flaws. DPS is damage over time. You have clearly fallen victim to the flaw of generalisation; you find it raises DPS in a short window, and then generalise that value to apply throughout all periods of combat. This is of course false. That, or you missed that the values I produced were averages, and that the value you gave with haste taken into account is far from an average.
The results are shown in categories, not in general terms. You’re jumping to a wrong conclusion. The figures clearly show what HM and Haste can do to the CS build and in the moment of burst, it can get upto 4600 DPS for the duration of Haste.
You accuse it to be a generalization even though it’s clearly that is not the case.
Not to mention, as already stated, haste is a gimmick, and is less reliable than revealed training with D/P which I didn’t deem reliable enough to factor into the calculation.
There’s also the fact I left unsaid that there is no tell for when it is ready to trigger again, so it won’t always be used to burst. It could activate when you’re escaping and not in a position to attack, or when you’re in shortbow, or simply not in a position to make use of it. So not only can it not be taken into account in an equation, but it is unreliable in practice. Like I said: gimmick.
Haste is more reliable than RT only because you can predict it’s CD status just by looking at the signet’s CD and can easily get into position with a single Bound. RT relies on stealth that Staff has no access on. The DA build has to use D/P to gain that bonus and if BP is interrupted, the DA build is SoL. This is why many D/P builds run away from fights when they are revealed or BP was interrupted…they have no staying power, thus they have significantly less DPS.
No staying power = less DPS
Going in stealth = less DPS
Running away =less DPSSo even if you’ve calculated with an assumption that DA D/P has better DPS, the fact remains that relying on stealth results in a very low DPS output.
also bruh didnt you notice i run 2 sigils. so that translates into 10 might stacks. just awaring you
Yes, but I use it as a way to gain 50% uptime of 5 stacks of might. If you use it in sequence, you get 20s of 5 stacks of might with only 4s window in between. 50% uptime is already generous even though the uptime is clearly higher than that.
You can surely pop the second signet for higher DPS to get 10 stacks of might, sure, but that might be too much for Impact to calculate.
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.
The statement you quoted shows that you’re arguing about something that is not there. “The Math is questionable if you follow the conversation” meaning the reasoning is flawed. All these things you’ve just posted has nothing to do with what the statement you quoted is addressing. The flaw in your reasoning is that you’ve left out key factors in your Math thus you’ve arrived at a conclusion not representative of your entire calculation, thus your estimates are hardly believable.
Not only are you making no sense, you clearly either skipped over what I said, or could not understand it at all. You’re still clinging to the idea that key factors are left out when all those that can be accounted for have been so, and that the conclusion of the calculation is the overall conclusion. No, it supports it. It is a part of it. It is not strong enough on its own to make a conclusion, this means even if you got it to say CS produces higher DPS, the conclusion would not shift to that without accompanied reasoning.
Sure you can argue that Haste is a gimmick and Weakness will result in less DPS if CS pick HM, but that’s the problem with your reasoning; you give the benefit of HM to DA even though it will suffer the same fate as CS if it didn’t take Weakening instead, yet you deny it from CS. That’s really pathetic. If you would apply HM to DA, you should also apply it to CS — your whole reasoning became questionable when you refused to do this. If HM is exclusive to DA, then sure, why not, apply it to DA only but that is not the case here.
Careful, you’re bordering on attacking the person instead of the reasoning. It’s not a problem with my reasoning but a problem of you focusing too much on finding flaws – what you want to see – than what is actually there. I said taking havoc mastery reduces survivability because there is no longer that weakness application. Now if you think instead of accuse, you might realise that because I say this, it must not affect the DA build, and indeed DA has weakness application, in addition to minor healing from mug. Had you been more reasonable you might have correctly argued that the DA weakness is much less than DD’s if you take it, because staff unlike D/P can only apply poison with steal which has twice the cool down of the weakness application trait. To which, I would say yes, and mug is also offers a very small heal, but combined with the little weakness inbetween evade spams, it is a survival increase in a smaller fight. Neither have much affect on a team fight because of the ammount of active and passive condition cleansing, duration reduction, immunity, and cleansing combos used, and the fact that most of the time the thief is ignored unless he proves to be an easy target, until he appears vulnerable otherwise it’d likely result in a waste of resources.
Furthermore, the OP posted a build that he claimed was the best and dealt more damage with for building with critical strikes over deadly arts. He must have a reason for choosing weakening strikes over havoc mastery, and this is his thread we are replying to. So in build vs build – as I said before, if the builds consisted of one trait line only, you’d have a point – DA takes havoc mastery, and the OP who not only plays CS but is trying to proclaim his build the best and using damage out as his primary reason, has chosen weakening strikes. Whether I agree with this or not, I must respect his choice if I am to reply to his build and claims.
You shout flaw when you have many, seem to forget things at your own convenience, and keep coming back to pounce on trivial things which, had you given them some thought first, would not need me to come back and explain. It’s good practice to see both sides of an argument before you commit to making it.
You might think that Haste is a gimmick but it is essential to this build to quickly bring the target below 50% HP. Leaving it out is just irresponsible.
Now this one made me laugh. Sorry, that’s not a nice thing to say; I suppose you just worded it poorly. Despite everything I have said on the haste matter, to say the build relies on it is an argument against its effectiveness. I don’t believe that is the case though – I don’t believe it “relies on it” – so I’m not going to “pounce” on it. Calling not factoring in something which can’t be factored in to a sufficient degree of accuracy “irresponsible,” or whatever you actually meant… Well there’s nothing really to say to that, is there. It’s just plain ludicrous.
http://www.twitch.tv/impact2780
Listen here children.
I have done the math (integrals) and here is a rather useful information:
At 200% ferocity, adding 1% critical hit chance will increase on average 0.69% overall damage.
The more precision you have, the less overall damage you will gain from gaining precision.
Example: + 1% critical hit chance at 40% will give more overall damage than + 1% at 75%.
Example of application: superior sigil of accuracy (+ 7% crit chance) has on average 4,2% increased overall damage. Therefore, superior sigil of force (+ 5% damage) is better on average. If you are under 40% critical hit chance, accuracy is better.
Also, the more ferocity you have, the more precision will be valuable.
Other uselful piece of knowledge. At 50% crticial hit chance, adding 1% at ferocity will add 0.30% overall damage.
Conclusion: power > precision >>> ferocity.
The statement you quoted shows that you’re arguing about something that is not there. “The Math is questionable if you follow the conversation” meaning the reasoning is flawed. All these things you’ve just posted has nothing to do with what the statement you quoted is addressing. The flaw in your reasoning is that you’ve left out key factors in your Math thus you’ve arrived at a conclusion not representative of your entire calculation, thus your estimates are hardly believable.
Not only are you making no sense, you clearly either skipped over what I said, or could not understand it at all. You’re still clinging to the idea that key factors are left out when all those that can be accounted for have been so, and that the conclusion of the calculation is the overall conclusion. No, it supports it. It is a part of it. It is not strong enough on its own to make a conclusion, this means even if you got it to say CS produces higher DPS, the conclusion would not shift to that without accompanied reasoning.
Key factors were indeed left out and you even admit to not including Signet of Power which is essential to the build. And you did made and jumped to a conclusion, many times, stating that DA has better DPS than CS — if that is not a conclusion you’ve jumped to, then by all means, I apologize for assuming that your not a conclusion is an actual conclusion even it is definitely a conclusion since you didn’t specify that your Math is inconclusive.
Sure you can argue that Haste is a gimmick and Weakness will result in less DPS if CS pick HM, but that’s the problem with your reasoning; you give the benefit of HM to DA even though it will suffer the same fate as CS if it didn’t take Weakening instead, yet you deny it from CS. That’s really pathetic. If you would apply HM to DA, you should also apply it to CS — your whole reasoning became questionable when you refused to do this. If HM is exclusive to DA, then sure, why not, apply it to DA only but that is not the case here.
Careful, you’re bordering on attacking the person instead of the reasoning. It’s not a problem with my reasoning but a problem of you focusing too much on finding flaws – what you want to see – than what is actually there. I said taking havoc mastery reduces survivability because there is no longer that weakness application.
What do you think Weakening Charge (Staff #2) is? Chopped liver?
Now if you think instead of accuse, you might realise that because I say this, it must not affect the DA build, and indeed DA has weakness application, in addition to minor healing from mug. Had you been more reasonable you might have correctly argued that the DA weakness is much less than DD’s if you take it, because staff unlike D/P can only apply poison with steal which has twice the cool down of the weakness application trait. To which, I would say yes, and mug is also offers a very small heal, but combined with the little weakness inbetween evade spams, it is a survival increase in a smaller fight. Neither have much affect on a team fight because of the ammount of active and passive condition cleansing, duration reduction, immunity, and cleansing combos used, and the fact that most of the time the thief is ignored unless he proves to be an easy target, until he appears vulnerable otherwise it’d likely result in a waste of resources.
This whole “reasoning” is based solely on a misconception that Staff has not access to weakness unless spec’d for DA. Weakening Charge says “Hi!”
Furthermore, the OP posted a build that he claimed was the best and dealt more damage with for building with critical strikes over deadly arts. He must have a reason for choosing weakening strikes over havoc mastery, and this is his thread we are replying to. So in build vs build – as I said before, if the builds consisted of one trait line only, you’d have a point – DA takes havoc mastery, and the OP who not only plays CS but is trying to proclaim his build the best and using damage out as his primary reason, has chosen weakening strikes. Whether I agree with this or not, I must respect his choice if I am to reply to his build and claims.
The OP obviously chose Weakening Strikes for the damage reduction, not so that he can apply weakness. You assumed wrong that he chose it so that he can apply weakness. It is fairly obvious that you have not run this build before thus your knowledge of what it can do is very limited that causes you to blunder in your reasonings.
He claims that it is the best. I personally can see why he think that it is even when you try to argue that it isn’t using DA. If you didn’t disagree with him, what’s the point of comparing it to DA build?
You shout flaw when you have many, seem to forget things at your own convenience, and keep coming back to pounce on trivial things which, had you given them some thought first, would not need me to come back and explain. It’s good practice to see both sides of an argument before you commit to making it.
Here are the flaws in your reasonings;
- You failed to account for Signet of Power
- You failed to account for Haste
- You failed to account for Weakening Charge arguing that CS has no source of weakness unless they spec for DA
- You failed to understand why the OP picked Weakening Strikes
- You failed to account for Trickster and Withdraw as a source of survivability
- You failed to acknowledge the fact that D/P has less DPS since it doesn’t have the same staying power as Staff
- You failed to acknowledge that when D/P stealth it does no damage while Staff can deal damage while evading
- You failed to acknowledge that Vault deals more damage than Backstab
- You failed to understand the numbers I’ve posted wrongfully accusing it as generalization when it clearly shows that they are categorized
It’s really hard to ignore if the flaws are this many.
You might think that Haste is a gimmick but it is essential to this build to quickly bring the target below 50% HP. Leaving it out is just irresponsible.
Now this one made me laugh. Sorry, that’s not a nice thing to say; I suppose you just worded it poorly. Despite everything I have said on the haste matter, to say the build relies on it is an argument against its effectiveness. I don’t believe that is the case though – I don’t believe it “relies on it” – so I’m not going to “pounce” on it. Calling not factoring in something which can’t be factored in to a sufficient degree of accuracy “irresponsible,” or whatever you actually meant… Well there’s nothing really to say to that, is there. It’s just plain ludicrous.
Where did I say that the build “relies on it”? You’re jumping to another wrong conclusion again.
It is essential to quickly bring the target down since Haste removes the telegraph from skills like Vault. It is essential not because the build relies on it, rather to pre-emptively counter an interrupt by removing the window of opportunity.
It is in fact, ludicrous because you don’t even realize nor comprehend the purpose of it.
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.
A combo is something that will not work when the order of sequence is interrupted, that is not the case here. An Example of a combo is BP+HS to gain stealth. If BP gets interrupted, there is no stealth. Bound and Inf Signet are not as volatile as this. Even if you interrupted Bound, the Thief will still get 10% damage boost.
Oh my good God man you must be desperate to bring this down to semantics. There are two types of combo. The obvious one, which is a combination of skills, interrupted or not. Then there is a combo which creates a combo effect, which you could call a "GW2 combo."
Arguing over this little thing is not only pointless, but ridiculous. There is clearly a combo.
Yet you’re arguing about it. If after playing GW2 for so long did not teach you what a combo is, then this is indeed pointless and ridiculous.
Yes I’m arguing it, unfortunately. I argue the point out of necessity, because you initiated it, and I’m replying to you. Once again after throwing around the word "flaw," you’re "attacking the arguer," trying to undermine my reasoning by belittling me by being deliberately obtuse in order to argue over something as trivial as semantics. I mean come on, who do you think you’re fooling?
Just because a burst can be mitigated or denied, doesn’t necessarily mean the target can predict when the burst will happen. You’re arguing that a flat DPS is better since a mitigation will have less effect assuming that a CS burst with Haste, Bound, HM, and 6 stacks of might can be predicted.
They don’t need to predict for something that is telegraphed and or when the attacker acquires quickness.
Any Thief who has played this long would know when to burst and when not to burst. With the example I’ve provided, using Inf Signet to engage instead of Steal reserves the Steal for interrupting any defensive skills the target is going to use.
No, no. Once again your argument is focusing on one side. If you assume the thief will know when to burst - a point made from experience - then you must afford that same experience to the opponent(s). An experienced player will not blow all their defensive skills early or together. They would know to hold at least something useful back in anticipation. Then, even if they did use their last defensive ability, haste is a gimmick. You like to forget this. You can’t always control - especially with AoE - when not to activate it. The chances are it’s been passively activated already without intention, forcing you to try and make use of it earlier than you say a "thief who has played this long" would.
Steal does not interrupt "any" defensive skills. It cannot interrupt a block, instant evade, invulnerability, dodge, or instant cast knockbacks, all of which are plentiful at present.
Assuming that the burst was mitigated, it doesn’t mean that CS will suddenly lose all DPS capability. Also the fact that you’re using D/P in your argument conveniently ignores the flaw of that weapon set, that it does no DPS while in stealth. Without stealth D/P dies in seconds even when spec’d with Weakening Strikes.
Putting words in my mouth I see. You had it right earlier when you translated my point. Now you’re back to seeming not to get it. I did not say CS loses all DPS capability after some damage is mitigated. That’s absurd. Nor did I use D/P. In fact I only mentioned D/P when referring to revealed training to state that even that is more reliable than flanking strikes and that I did not even see revealed training fit to be included for the D/P part in the calculations. I used it to make a point against flanking strikes. No where did I state I was "using D/P" against arguing a point about mitigation affecting CS. That makes absolutely no sense. Something you obviously forgot to consider when jumping to the conclusion in order to use that word "flaw," again...
DA has less staying power than CS. Even more so if DA uses D/P which going in stealth means less DPS. Even without weakness, this CS build forces the target into a defensive position meaning there will be no DPS coming from the target to worry about. This CS build uses Withdraw instead of Channeled Vigor shows that it has, in fact, a lot of survivability. Staying power is provided by the Staff which D/P lacks.
You’re again focusing on D/P to strengthen an argument where D/P was not involved. In the post I made before this one, I explained how weakness is more for smaller fights such as 1v1s or 2v2s, and even then should be used more precisely than a passive on RNG can allow for. In a team fight its effectiveness is significantly reduced. Your argument also assumes that DA won’t put out sufficient pressure to force the same target(s) in the same scenario(s) into a defensive position, after we’ve discussed that CS’s -combo- with quickness will likely be avoided, mitigated, or failed. Both builds would be able to force the same target in the same scenario into a defensive position.
The results are shown in categories, not in general terms. You’re jumping to a wrong conclusion. The figures clearly show what HM and Haste can do to the CS build and in the moment of burst, it can get upto 4600 DPS for the duration of Haste.
You accuse it to be a generalization even though it’s clearly that is not the case.
Generalisation or failing to see the values I provided were intended as estimates of an average* I said failing, because I assumed you would not deliberately attempt to offer that figure for the brief duration of haste for comparison to an average. If you did not intend it for comparison then there was even less point to it, especially after considering what I keep having to state about haste being a gimmick and why. If I assumed wrong - or as you’d rather put it, "jumped to the wrong conclusion," - it was by a bad design on your part. You see, I had to interpret it the way I did for it to have any bearing on the discussion, which you obviously intended that it would.
Haste is more reliable than RT only because you can predict it’s CD status just by looking at the signet’s CD and can easily get into position with a single Bound. RT relies on stealth that Staff has no access on. The DA build has to use D/P to gain that bonus and if BP is interrupted, the DA build is SoL. This is why many D/P builds run away from fights when they are revealed or BP was interrupted...they have no staying power, thus they have significantly less DPS.
No staying power = less DPS
Going in stealth = less DPS
Running away =less DPSSo even if you’ve calculated with an assumption that DA D/P has better DPS, the fact remains that relying on stealth results in a very low DPS output.
There’s no point focusing on how easy it might be to position yourself. That bears no weight here. Even if you do judge its cool down using signet cool downs, it’s not more reliable than revealed training for every reason I’ve already provided. You can’t always control when it goes off, even if you know it is ready. You can’t be sure to be in a position to use it, you may instead be defensive or escaping when it activates because of when and where you had to dodge. You may have been forced into shortbow and either stop damaging to wait for your swap - losing DPS - or keep going and have trick shot or combustive shot hit someone from the back or side and activate it. Furthermore, I can’t believe you’d -always- use a signet with haste. The enemy comp may necessitate saving them for their actual functions instead of to gain might and track the cool down of a passive trait.
And again you’re trying to strengthen your arguments by saying you have to run D/P to use revealed training, missing completely the fact the comparison was staff vs. staff, and revealed training was used to in making a point of the unreliability of haste.
http://www.twitch.tv/impact2780
Key factors were indeed left out and you even admit to not including Signet of Power which is essential to the build. And you did made and jumped to a conclusion, many times, stating that DA has better DPS than CS — if that is not a conclusion you’ve jumped to, then by all means, I apologize for assuming that your not a conclusion is an actual conclusion even it is definitely a conclusion since you didn’t specify that your Math is inconclusive.
One key factor, one error which actually favored CS. The error I fixed, and the missing might still doesn’t change which came out on top, and which came out on top does not mark which one is better on its own as I keep saying and you keep ignoring because it would mean you’ve just been wasting a lot of time and effort.
Ah, so you’re saying you’ve blown this all up because I did not say "these figures are estimates" when it is so obvious that they are because they can’t possibly remain true for every in-practice scenario, or even half of them. That’s a fault of yours, I’m afraid. Sure, perhaps I should have made it clearer... After all, companies have been sued for not putting "may contain nuts" on a packet a nuts, but blowing it up based on that little detail is on you.
What do you think Weakening Charge (Staff #2) is? Chopped liver?
Well I suppose I shot myself in the foot. I almost mentioned it in anticipation of this empty response, but thought "no, he’ll know why." It’s a low duration of weakness in a meta where everything has condition immunity, removal and duration reduction. It’d only be remotely useful in smaller fights. Ideally you’d have the weakness up when you’re not evading, which you use your initiative for. If you’re using your initiative to land weakness instead for when you’re not evading which you aren’t when applying it with this skill, you are not pressuring as much as you could be. The exception might be when you can hit three times with it, which can’t be achieved often.
This whole “reasoning” is based solely on a misconception that Staff has not access to weakness unless spec’d for DA. Weakening Charge says “Hi!”
Again you’re jumping on something without thinking it through. You have to use initiative with weakening charge and can’t rely on it applying a good enough duration when you want it to. The traits in DA and DD would apply it on-hit, meaning it can’t be dodged, except for DA if they dodge steal, but that’s something the player has to work on being able to land, since it’s so important that it does land.
The OP obviously chose Weakening Strikes for the damage reduction, not so that he can apply weakness. You assumed wrong that he chose it so that he can apply weakness. It is fairly obvious that you have not run this build before thus your knowledge of what it can do is very limited that causes you to blunder in your reasonings.
He claims that it is the best. I personally can see why he think that it is even when you try to argue that it isn’t using DA. If you didn’t disagree with him, what’s the point of comparing it to DA build?
Regardless of the reason for choosing it, the point is he did. The damage reduction is also only effective while weakness is applied, which is not something to rely on, as I have just covered. It seems you’d rather ignore it, along with a lot of other things previously stated, so you can keep going. I’m not even going to credit the next point with a response.
I do disagree with CS being better than DA. I’ve made no attempt to hide that.
Here are the flaws in your reasonings;
- You failed to account for Signet of Power
- You failed to account for Haste
- You failed to account for Weakening Charge arguing that CS has no source of weakness unless they spec for DA
- You failed to understand why the OP picked Weakening Strikes
- You failed to account for Trickster and Withdraw as a source of survivability
- You failed to acknowledge the fact that D/P has less DPS since it doesn’t have the same staying power as Staff
- You failed to acknowledge that when D/P stealth it does no damage while Staff can deal damage while evading
- You failed to acknowledge that Vault deals more damage than Backstab
- You failed to understand the numbers I’ve posted wrongfully accusing it as generalization when it clearly shows that they are categorizedIt’s really hard to ignore if the flaws are this many.
Signets of power: later accounted for and did not change the order of highest DPS average in the calculation. Continuing to focus on it being originally overlooked does not achieve anything.
I did not account for haste because such a gimmick is unaccountable for. Despite everything I’ve said to support that, if you wish to continue insisting leaving it out is a problem, then the only thing you achieve is making me question your ability to see sense.
I considered weakening charge, I just didn’t think it warranted an explanation. Sorry for overestimating you.
I did not fail to see why weakening strikes was picked. You jumped to that without enough evidence to support it. I only focused on the weakness application because the secondary effect relies on weakness, so targeting the weakness also affected the secondary effect. Why do I need to explain this. It’s ironic you still talk of flaws while even your list contains one of your own...
I acknowledge D/P doesn’t damage while in stealth.. That is so obvious that I shouldn’t need to type it out for you. Even if it weren’t obvious it doesn’t need to be stated because it doesn’t affect the DA staff vs. CS staff discussion. Really man, could you grasp for straws any harder? Also, technically staff doesn’t damage while evading. The evade frame ends right before the hit lands.
- Failed to acknowledge that vault does more damage than backstab...? This focusing on D/P again to appear to strengthen a debate between two different trait lines for staff only. You’re rendering me speechless. All I can do is stare and think "wow..."
- I did not fail to understand the numbers, I interpreted them in the context of the discussion so they would not be completely pointless, making the assumption that you didn’t intend for them to be pointless. Regardless of how I looked at them, they brought nothing, as I have already said. Another case of ignoring something so you can keep going.
Keep throwing that word around if you want. It doesn’t make them true, or make yours any less real.
http://www.twitch.tv/impact2780
hahahaha. U boys realize nobody reads yo esseys 10000 word long. Friendly adivce. Never ever waste yo time in this way
hahahaha. U boys realize nobody reads yo esseys 10000 word long. Friendly adivce. Never ever waste yo time in this way
ayy lmao. repped
Roxas aka best thief EU
aka male model status demi god alpha facial aesthetics/10
hahahaha. U boys realize nobody reads yo esseys 10000 word long. Friendly adivce. Never ever waste yo time in this way
and i already told them to just watch my stream to see that its the best indeed
Roxas aka best thief EU
aka male model status demi god alpha facial aesthetics/10
hahahaha. U boys realize nobody reads yo esseys 10000 word long. Friendly adivce. Never ever waste yo time in this way
Oh I know. I also know there’s no winning an argument with someone who behaves like repeating things previously countered over and over will eventually make them true, or that collecting enough previously countered points for submission in bulk will make a strong argument.
Well, technically you do win, but they don’t see that, and when no one else follows the discussion it’s actually important that they do see it. So unfortunately, it merely becomes a battle of who will get fed up first.
http://www.twitch.tv/impact2780
Oh my good God man you must be desperate to bring this down to semantics. There are two types of combo. The obvious one, which is a combination of skills, interrupted or not. Then there is a combo which creates a combo effect, which you could call a “GW2 combo.”
A combo is a combo only if each part works hand in hand with each other. Sequencing the use of skills are hardly a combo.
In boxing, I can jab and uppercut whenever I want to. It only becomes a combo when I use the jab to open up for a big uppercut. I cannot use uppercut to open up for a jab, if I do that combination, it is not considered a combo. You may argue with the technicality of the term, but that’s just being pathetic.
Yet you’re arguing about it. If after playing GW2 for so long did not teach you what a combo is, then this is indeed pointless and ridiculous.
Yes I’m arguing it, unfortunately. I argue the point out of necessity, because you initiated it, and I’m replying to you. Once again after throwing around the word “flaw,” you’re “attacking the arguer,” trying to undermine my reasoning by belittling me by being deliberately obtuse in order to argue over something as trivial as semantics. I mean come on, who do you think you’re fooling?[/quote]
I initiated it? You quickly forget that you claimed to see a combo where there isn’t.
They don’t need to predict for something that is telegraphed and or when the attacker acquires quickness.
No, no. Once again your argument is focusing on one side. If you assume the thief will know when to burst – a point made from experience – then you must afford that same experience to the opponent(s). An experienced player will not blow all their defensive skills early or together. They would know to hold at least something useful back in anticipation. Then, even if they did use their last defensive ability, haste is a gimmick. You like to forget this. You can’t always control – especially with AoE – when not to activate it. The chances are it’s been passively activated already without intention, forcing you to try and make use of it earlier than you say a “thief who has played this long” would.
You assume that the player who spec’d for Flanking Strikes has no knowledge on when or how to use it. Only those who doesn’t know much about the trait who keeps away from it.
Steal does not interrupt “any” defensive skills. It cannot interrupt a block, instant evade, invulnerability, dodge, or instant cast knockbacks, all of which are plentiful at present.
If that is the case, then why even bother taking Sleight of Hands if there are plenty of uninterruptable defensive skills? The CDR will also mean nothing.
The fact is, SoH applies daze, which prevents the target from using any skills.
Assuming that the burst was mitigated, it doesn’t mean that CS will suddenly lose all DPS capability. Also the fact that you’re using D/P in your argument conveniently ignores the flaw of that weapon set, that it does no DPS while in stealth. Without stealth D/P dies in seconds even when spec’d with Weakening Strikes.
Putting words in my mouth I see. You had it right earlier when you translated my point. Now you’re back to seeming not to get it. I did not say CS loses all DPS capability after some damage is mitigated. That’s absurd.
Nor did I use D/P. In fact I only mentioned D/P when referring to revealed training to state that even that is more reliable than flanking strikes and that I did not even see revealed training fit to be included for the D/P part in the calculations. I used it to make a point against flanking strikes. No where did I state I was “using D/P” against arguing a point about mitigation affecting CS. That makes absolutely no sense. Something you obviously forgot to consider when jumping to the conclusion in order to use that word “flaw,” again…
What in the world are you reading? Nowhere did I accuse you of saying something you didn’t say. You’re being so defensive now. You’re seeing an attack where there is none.
You went all the trouble of calculating D/P’s damage output. If that is irrelevant, then we can just ignore anything to do with D/P…because really, it’s just a distraction, a red herring.
DA has less staying power than CS. Even more so if DA uses D/P which going in stealth means less DPS. Even without weakness, this CS build forces the target into a defensive position meaning there will be no DPS coming from the target to worry about. This CS build uses Withdraw instead of Channeled Vigor shows that it has, in fact, a lot of survivability. Staying power is provided by the Staff which D/P lacks.
You’re again focusing on D/P to strengthen an argument where D/P was not involved.
I’m getting rid of the notion that RT is more reliable than FS proving that DA is even weaker with D/P even if you claim that RT is more reliable. Why would you even compare RT to FS is beyond me, when the two has nothing in common or were they even interchangeable.
In the post I made before this one, I explained how weakness is more for smaller fights such as 1v1s or 2v2s, and even then should be used more precisely than a passive on RNG can allow for. In a team fight its effectiveness is significantly reduced. Your argument also assumes that DA won’t put out sufficient pressure to force the same target(s) in the same scenario(s) into a defensive position, after we’ve discussed that CS’s -combo- with quickness will likely be avoided, mitigated, or failed. Both builds would be able to force the same target in the same scenario into a defensive position.
No. what you said was, and I quote, “I said taking havoc mastery reduces survivability because there is no longer that weakness application”
For which I responded the way I did.
The results are shown in categories, not in general terms. You’re jumping to a wrong conclusion. The figures clearly show what HM and Haste can do to the CS build and in the moment of burst, it can get upto 4600 DPS for the duration of Haste.
You accuse it to be a generalization even though it’s clearly that is not the case.
Generalisation or failing to see the values I provided were intended as estimates of an average* I said failing, because I assumed you would not deliberately attempt to offer that figure for the brief duration of haste for comparison to an average. If you did not intend it for comparison then there was even less point to it, especially after considering what I keep having to state about haste being a gimmick and why. If I assumed wrong – or as you’d rather put it, “jumped to the wrong conclusion,” – it was by a bad design on your part. You see, I had to interpret it the way I did for it to have any bearing on the discussion, which you obviously intended that it would.
The values I provided shows the average in different states. If you want to calculate the average in general term, then you would take the high point of the build, which is with HM, Haste, and Might stacks, and the low point for when those buff doesn’t apply. I didn’t do that for a reason.
Haste is more reliable than RT only because you can predict it’s CD status just by looking at the signet’s CD and can easily get into position with a single Bound. RT relies on stealth that Staff has no access on. The DA build has to use D/P to gain that bonus and if BP is interrupted, the DA build is SoL. This is why many D/P builds run away from fights when they are revealed or BP was interrupted…they have no staying power, thus they have significantly less DPS.
No staying power = less DPS
Going in stealth = less DPS
Running away =less DPSSo even if you’ve calculated with an assumption that DA D/P has better DPS, the fact remains that relying on stealth results in a very low DPS output.
There’s no point focusing on how easy it might be to position yourself. That bears no weight here.
It is easy to simply dismiss the fact that those who uses FS actually goes through training to familiarize themselves on their position and the FS CD.
Even if you do judge its cool down using signet cool downs, it’s not more reliable than revealed training for every reason I’ve already provided. You can’t always control when it goes off, even if you know it is ready. You can’t be sure to be in a position to use it, you may instead be defensive or escaping when it activates because of when and where you had to dodge. You may have been forced into shortbow and either stop damaging to wait for your swap – losing DPS – or keep going and have trick shot or combustive shot hit someone from the back or side and activate it. Furthermore, I can’t believe you’d -always- use a signet with haste. The enemy comp may necessitate saving them for their actual functions instead of to gain might and track the cool down of a passive trait.
Yes, of course. Every Thief is a mindless player who rolls their face on their keyboard whenever they play who waste their utility skill nonsensically.
You could either pick the worst of the players to make your point or you can actually give credit to players who knows what they’re doing. That’s up to you.
I’d rather assume that the Thief knows what they are doing to actually gauge the potential of the build rather than assume that they are incompetent and makes a lot of mistakes.
And again you’re trying to strengthen your arguments by saying you have to run D/P to use revealed training, missing completely the fact the comparison was staff vs. staff, and revealed training was used to in making a point of the unreliability of haste.
If that is the case, D/P is nothing but a red herring. DA Staff vs CS Staff already shows how CS Staff is far superior.
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.
Ah, so you’re saying you’ve blown this all up because I did not say “these figures are estimates”
My point is that you’re denying jumping to a conclusion.
Well I suppose I shot myself in the foot. I almost mentioned it in anticipation of this empty response, but thought “no, he’ll know why.” It’s a low duration of weakness in a meta where everything has condition immunity, removal and duration reduction. It’d only be remotely useful in smaller fights. Ideally you’d have the weakness up when you’re not evading, which you use your initiative for. If you’re using your initiative to land weakness instead for when you’re not evading which you aren’t when applying it with this skill, you are not pressuring as much as you could be. The exception might be when you can hit three times with it, which can’t be achieved often.
Well that is not the point is it? You made so many false claims about weakness and now you’re trying to cover it up.
Again you’re jumping on something without thinking it through. You have to use initiative with weakening charge and can’t rely on it applying a good enough duration when you want it to.
This is unreliable. That is unreliable. That is basically the only defense you have. Calling something unreliable is getting old fast.
The traits in DA and DD would apply it on-hit, meaning it can’t be dodged, except for DA if they dodge steal, but that’s something the player has to work on being able to land, since it’s so important that it does land.
Correction. It applies on crit for DD and it applies on poison in DA. Another blunder.
Regardless of the reason for choosing it, the point is he did. The damage reduction is also only effective while weakness is applied, which is not something to rely on, as I have just covered. It seems you’d rather ignore it, along with a lot of other things previously stated, so you can keep going. I’m not even going to credit the next point with a response.
Yes, yes. Every skills and every traits are unreliable. I get it. They are so unreliable that none of them really matter. Heck, what DPS? It’s unreliable.
I do disagree with CS being better than DA. I’ve made no attempt to hide that.
But DA is unreliable. Dying is more reliable than actually trying to deal high DPS.
Signets of power: later accounted for and did not change the order of highest DPS average in the calculation. Continuing to focus on it being originally overlooked does not achieve anything.
Really? 5 stacks of might? 10 stacks of might? —- made no difference?
Probably because SoP is so unreliable.
I did not account for haste because such a gimmick is unaccountable for. Despite everything I’ve said to support that, if you wish to continue insisting leaving it out is a problem, then the only thing you achieve is making me question your ability to see sense.
Dismissing something and calling it a gimmick to make a DA build looks good is what it comes down to.
I considered weakening charge, I just didn’t think it warranted an explanation. Sorry for overestimating you.
Then why make false statements suchs as, “I said taking havoc mastery reduces survivability because there is no longer that weakness application.”
Either you’re lying now saying that you’ve considered it, or you’re lying when you made that quoted statement. Either way, you’re been making dishonest statements.
I did not fail to see why weakening strikes was picked. You jumped to that without enough evidence to support it.
Really? Here I quote, “He must have a reason for choosing weakening strikes over havoc mastery”
Then acknowledging the pick, instead you’re alluding that there might be some mysterious other reason than the obvious.
I only focused on the weakness application because the secondary effect relies on weakness, so targeting the weakness also affected the secondary effect. Why do I need to explain this. It’s ironic you still talk of flaws while even your list contains one of your own…
But that was not your reasoning. Here again I quote, " I said taking havoc mastery reduces survivability because there is no longer that weakness application."
Even without the WS trait, weakness is a condition that causes a 50% fumble which is survivability for the Thief. The notion that taking HM reduces survivability is what’s wrong here. More damage means target is on defense, less attacks coming from the target, in a sense more damage is survivability.
I acknowledge D/P doesn’t damage while in stealth.. That is so obvious that I shouldn’t need to type it out for you. Even if it weren’t obvious it doesn’t need to be stated because it doesn’t affect the DA staff vs. CS staff discussion. Really man, could you grasp for straws any harder? Also, technically staff doesn’t damage while evading. The evade frame ends right before the hit lands.
But this is about the reliability to RT. If the build has to go DA D/P just so the Thief can take RT over FS, you have to consider the fact that such transition has a cost. So even if you can convince someone that RT is more reliable than FS, the fact of the matter is D/P is not a good source of high DPS. Which makes the ever mention of RT irrelevant. Why even bring up RT if you’re not willing to accept that it comes with a DA D/P baggage? And that it has no value, whatsoever, to DA Staff? It might be reliable in your opinion, but it’s useless.
- Failed to acknowledge that vault does more damage than backstab…? This focusing on D/P again to appear to strengthen a debate between two different trait lines for staff only. You’re rendering me speechless. All I can do is stare and think “wow…”
This stems out of the idea that RT is more reliable. I’m simply exploring the idea that if I were to change this build, I would have to accept the poor damage of Backstab compare to Vault. Again, RT might reliable to you, but it has no value in terms of DPS. If Staff has an easy access to stealth, I would have agreed with you.
- I did not fail to understand the numbers, I interpreted them in the context of the discussion so they would not be completely pointless, making the assumption that you didn’t intend for them to be pointless. Regardless of how I looked at them, they brought nothing, as I have already said. Another case of ignoring something so you can keep going.
I’m not the one who’s ignoring the value of Haste, or the 2 signets on the skill bar that each can grant 5 stacks of Might.
Keep throwing that word around if you want. It doesn’t make them true, or make yours any less real.
Intentionally omitting something in your calculation only solidifies that word.
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.
A combo is a combo only if each part works hand in hand with each other. Sequencing the use of skills are hardly a combo.
In boxing, I can jab and uppercut whenever I want to. It only becomes a combo when I use the jab to open up for a big uppercut. I cannot use uppercut to open up for a jab, if I do that combination, it is not considered a combo. You may argue with the technicality of the term, but that’s just being pathetic.
We’re in the context of a video game, not a real world fight. You wouldn’t side-step to gain quickness so you can follow it up with a series of punches, lol. In a game you can do such things, and they become a burst combination, shortened to “combo.” You might fool yourself by pointing the finger at me for something you’re doing, but you don’t fool me, so save the insults.
You assume that the player who spec’d for Flanking Strikes has no knowledge on when or how to use it. Only those who doesn’t know much about the trait who keeps away from it.
No, I state that there are a lot of factors outside the player’s control which can make using the skill as and when they want, and avoiding activating it to set it on cooldown when they don’t want, to make it a reliable means of bursting.
Now you’re making an assumption, and an incorrect one as usual, with no grounds, because there are more reasons to take thrill of the crime than simply “to not take flanking strikes.”
If that is the case, then why even bother taking Sleight of Hands if there are plenty of uninterruptable defensive skills? The CDR will also mean nothing.
The fact is, SoH applies daze, which prevents the target from using any skills.
Again I must explain things to you because you’d rather use the absence of a statement for something obvious as a means to argue. Sleight of hand may not be able to reliably interrupt defensive abilities, but it can interrupt heal skills and offensive skills. It’s as much a defensive trait as an offensive one.
It can apply daze to prevent skill use yes, but not reliably interrupt those defensive skills. Even for skills it can interrupt, unless you’re taking bountiful theft, which the OP’s build does not, you’ll fail the daze because of the abundance of stability. If it does daze them, they can still dodge, but often won’t need to because usually you’ll trigger their passive “when disabled” trait which will in turn interrupt yourself.
What in the world are you reading? Nowhere did I accuse you of saying something you didn’t say. You’re being so defensive now. You’re seeing an attack where there is none.
You went all the trouble of calculating D/P’s damage output. If that is irrelevant, then we can just ignore anything to do with D/P…because really, it’s just a distraction, a red herring.
You felt the need to state that even if the burst was mitigated, CS does not lose all damage capability. I never said that it did, yet, given the context, you are implying that I either said it or implied it. Please, every response to me is an attack against my points. This isn’t a bad thing, it’s just what it is. If I disagree and offer a counter argument, I am attacking the argument you made that I am aiming to counter, am I not? Were you to disagree with that, you’d be defending your point. Being defensive doesn’t make you wrong or paranoid. Here, it means you’ve failed to convince me not to stick by what I’ve said thus far, and that I’m making that clear to you.
Sigh, I put D/P’s figures in as a point of interest. A red herring raises a new issue, and often as a distraction to keep from returning to the main subject. A point of interest is hardly this. If anything you’ve been trying to use it to your advantage; each time I am forced to remind you that D/P is mostly irrelevant here. This is just another example of you grasping at straws.
I’m getting rid of the notion that RT is more reliable than FS proving that DA is even weaker with D/P even if you claim that RT is more reliable. Why would you even compare RT to FS is beyond me, when the two has nothing in common or were they even interchangeable.
Ha. Revealed training is a buff for while you’re revealed. It’s always ready for when you are, and you lose nothing from failing to utilise it now and then. It’s more consistent and reliable than flanking strikes. There is absolutely no contest in terms of reliability. I’ve told you why I compared them. It was to make a point – that despite revealed training being more reliable and consistent, I chose not to factor that in because of the variables in practice, intending that because it’s so obvious that flanking strikes is less reliable, it definitely can’t make it in. I’ve said this a number of times. Perhaps therein lies the problem you’re having… You aren’t reading clearly?
In the post I made before this one, I explained how weakness is more for smaller fights such as 1v1s or 2v2s, and even then should be used more precisely than a passive on RNG can allow for. In a team fight its effectiveness is significantly reduced. Your argument also assumes that DA won’t put out sufficient pressure to force the same target(s) in the same scenario(s) into a defensive position, after we’ve discussed that CS’s -combo- with quickness will likely be avoided, mitigated, or failed. Both builds would be able to force the same target in the same scenario into a defensive position.
No. what you said was, and I quote, “I said taking havoc mastery reduces survivability because there is no longer that weakness application
I most definitely did say what I said I said in the post before that one. The post I made before that one was the post I made before that one. Not the one you were replying to. Really, the things I have to explain -_-. Also, “that” weakness application is the weakness application I said would no longer be taken, which is true, because it’s not taken, then “that” means of application is gone, no? It doesn’t mean all weakness application skills. Another thing I have waste time explaining when I really shouldn’t need to.
The values I provided shows the average in different states. If you want to calculate the average in general term, then you would take the high point of the build, which is with HM, Haste, and Might stacks, and the low point for when those buff doesn’t apply. I didn’t do that for a reason.
No you would not. If I hit 500 for 2 seconds, then 5 for 30 seconds, that doesn’t make the average (500+5)/2=252.5. There is a time factor to consider. Throughout a match of 7+ minutes, you can’t even sufficiently estimate for a buff which doesn’t trigger the maximum number of times it can in a period of time due to numerous variables, especially when when it does trigger, it’s not always going to be possible to control or fully utilise. In some cases it will be completely ineffective – wasted – and in others half as effective as it might have been etc. You’re never going to prove this incorrect. It is a gimmick.
It is easy to simply dismiss the fact that those who uses FS actually goes through training to familiarize themselves on their position and the FS CD.
More straws that don’t have any bearing on the points I’ve already made.
Yes, of course. Every Thief is a mindless player who rolls their face on their keyboard whenever they play who waste their utility skill nonsensically.
You could either pick the worst of the players to make your point or you can actually give credit to players who knows what they’re doing. That’s up to you.
I’d rather assume that the Thief knows what they are doing to actually gauge the potential of the build rather than assume that they are incompetent and makes a lot of mistakes.
That’s not even remotely what I said. If you’re going to assume the thief knows what he is doing, you must afford the same consideration toward his target. i.e. consider that they both know what they are doing, or neither know what they are doing.
And again you’re trying to strengthen your arguments by saying you have to run D/P to use revealed training, missing completely the fact the comparison was staff vs. staff, and revealed training was used to in making a point of the unreliability of haste.
If that is the case, D/P is nothing but a red herring. DA Staff vs CS Staff already shows how CS Staff is far superior.
No, your failure to use something, intended as a point of interest, to your own advantage when there is no logical way it can be, and being caught, does not make that bit of information which I have not attempted to use as a distraction (if anything, you are), does not make it a red herring. I have also addressed this nonsense claim above.
http://www.twitch.tv/impact2780
I’m not sure what’s funnier…the guy arguing for his stream like a kid calling for the Sniper Rifle in a game of Halo or the back and forth essays between two people that seem to honestly think they change the other persons mind with their cherry-picking rants.
There may be nothing of actual value in terms of playing thief here, but this thread has at least become comedy gold.
Ah, so you’re saying you’ve blown this all up because I did not say “these figures are estimates”
My point is that you’re denying jumping to a conclusion.
No… You jumped to the conclusion that it, alone, was a conclusion, and are now trying to recover from that instead of moving past it.
Well that is not the point is it? You made so many false claims about weakness and now you’re trying to cover it up.
I have made none. I’m just being forced to explain every little obvious detail for you.
This is unreliable. That is unreliable. That is basically the only defense you have. Calling something unreliable is getting old fast.
It’s only getting old because you keep re-using the same stuff I’ve already countered, forcing me to repeat it. Besides, just because something remains true for numerous points doesn’t make it weaker.
The traits in DA and DD would apply it on-hit, meaning it can’t be dodged, except for DA if they dodge steal, but that’s something the player has to work on being able to land, since it’s so important that it does land.
Correction. It applies on crit for DD and it applies on poison in DA. Another blunder.
No, another “wishful blunder.” Again rushing to try and find something to point at in negativity instead of actually reading. Both apply on-hit. A critical hit, is a hit. Poison application skills that thief has, deliver a hit. The weakness is applied after that hit. Remember this along with most of your other little nit-pick attempts the next time you think to call me pathetic, please.
Yes, yes. Every skills and every traits are unreliable. I get it. They are so unreliable that none of them really matter. Heck, what DPS? It’s unreliable.
It’s not my fault I can reasonably assert that the things you want to focus on are unreliable to factor into a mathematical equation, and defend my reasoning each time. Nor is it my fault the OP chose what he chose. At least this tune is different from that “flaw flaw flaw” tune accompanied with no new reasoning, though. As in-constructive as it is, it’s a nice change.
I do disagree with CS being better than DA. I’ve made no attempt to hide that.
But DA is unreliable. Dying is more reliable than actually trying to deal high DPS.
Whoops, you slipped! You were trying to mock “unreliable,” remember? Not “reliable.”
Signets of power: later accounted for and did not change the order of highest DPS average in the calculation. Continuing to focus on it being originally overlooked does not achieve anything.
Really? 5 stacks of might? 10 stacks of might? —- made no difference?
Probably because SoP is so unreliable.
The might made a difference. I said it did not change the order of highest DPS average, not that it did not change the values. Remember, I corrected the value you provided after factoring in 5 more stacks of might, which you calculated to be about 100 points less that it should have been. I’m hardly being bias.
SoP isn’t unreliable. It’s a nice trait. I actually used to use it when I ran CS pre-HoT. I think perhaps you don’t understand what is reliable and what isn’t.
Dismissing something and calling it a gimmick to make a DA build looks good is what it comes down to.
No, what it comes down to is you can’t refute the reasons I give, so you try to simply repeat it with slightly modified wording enough times to hope it slips through, and failing that and without anything new to offer in counter, and refusal to simply accept what has been explained, you make ridiculous leaps and accusations. I have given plenty of reasons supporting that it is a gimmick. I have not dismissed it, but argued that it is unreliable and not possible to be accounted for with sufficient accuracy – yes even for an estimate – in the calculation.
I considered weakening charge, I just didn’t think it warranted an explanation. Sorry for overestimating you.
Then why make false statements suchs as, “I said taking havoc mastery reduces survivability because there is no longer that weakness application.”
Either you’re lying now saying that you’ve considered it, or you’re lying when you made that quoted statement. Either way, you’re been making dishonest statements.
There is nothing remotely dishonest. Of course you can’t know that I did indeed consider it, but it doesn’t matter if you don’t believe that I did, because I provided the previously unsaid reasoning that I thought was obvious, after you brought it up. Keep trying….
I did not fail to see why weakening strikes was picked. You jumped to that without enough evidence to support it.
Really? Here I quote, “He must have a reason for choosing weakening strikes over havoc mastery”
Then acknowledging the pick, instead you’re alluding that there might be some mysterious other reason than the obvious.
No.. He must have had a reason, and saying that he must have a reason is simply true. Whether I can see why it would be picked or not is irrelevant. The OP picked it, he must have a reason for doing so, and since this is a discussion over his build, I must respect that reason whatever it may be – agree or disagree – and take that trait for the build in the calculation. There is no rule that says you can’t disagree with taking that trait, and offer that if he takes it, he’ll have even more DPS. But instead of just saying that, you’re trying to use it against what I posted, which simply won’t work because it’s not your build or thread.
reduces survivability because there is no longer that weakness application."*
Taking one sentence out of all the reasons given does not suddenly make everything else vanish.
Even without the WS trait, weakness is a condition that causes a 50% fumble which is survivability for the Thief.
…Which is only effective while weakness is applied and felt.
The notion that taking HM reduces survivability is what’s wrong here. More damage means target is on defense, less attacks coming from the target, in a sense more damage is survivability.
See, this is a good counter argument. You should do this more often. Still, I must say while this may be correct – albeit perhaps less so in smaller fights – the OP’s build is what the topic is about, and he did not take it in his build.
But this is about the reliability to RT. If the build has to go DA D/P just so the Thief can take RT over FS, you have to consider the fact that such transition has a cost. So even if you can convince someone that RT is more reliable than FS, the fact of the matter is D/P is not a good source of high DPS. Which makes the ever mention of RT irrelevant. Why even bring up RT if you’re not willing to accept that it comes with a DA D/P baggage? And that it has no value, whatsoever, to DA Staff? It might be reliable in your opinion, but it’s useless.
This again lol… Yes I actually laughed. How many times do I need to state it was to make a point against flanking strikes’s reliability – that it is less than revealed training which wouldn’t even be taken into account either.
I’m not the one who’s ignoring the value of Haste, or the 2 signets on the skill bar that each can grant 5 stacks of Might.
Oh I’m not ignoring the “value” of haste. I’m just disputing it. There will be times it’s an asset and other times it’s wasted or not used fully, and that given the great number of variables, it cannot be factored into an equation – even one of estimates – for average DPS. Not in PvP, anyway.
I didn’t ignore the signets either. Remember, I corrected your calculation after you factored them in. It changed the DPS result, but didn’t change the order, again, as I keep saying.
Intentionally omitting something in your calculation only solidifies that word.
Not when it can’t be factored in to a degree of sufficient accuracy.
http://www.twitch.tv/impact2780
I tested some stuff, it seems CS does do more damage than DA a lot of the time, at least with staff anyways. Not sure why, but higher numbers on my screen. So sorry if I came off as kitten y in the last post ^^
Don’t follow me, unless you enjoy being chased by angry men with sticks.
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