Guild Wars 2

Now that we’re starting to split skills between PVP and PVE, can we undo the nerf to pistol whip that put it under autoattack damage for PVE? it was a good skill to use in PVE and most PVE thieves who used it weren’t using it in conjunction with haste (the real culprit behind the skill being “OP”

I for one am getting really tired of standing in a cloud of smoke autoattacking.

Yes, PVE only, please, autoattack is really really boring.

Pretty much this. Bring back pistol whip please

I use PW in PvE still but yeah, my auto attack usually does more damage or equal damage.

evade+stun+more dps > autoattack

Damage is fine, it can still melt mobs’ hp bars. Obviously it won’t kill anyone with 2 casts of PW, but the evade, the stun and the faster attack rate makes that skill better than your autoattack.

It isn’t all about raw numbers guys, there are more factors that make a skill powerful.

Like gun 5 providing longer, more mobile protection for same cost and auto keeping weakness and cripple on top.

sorrow.2364:

Obviously it won’t kill anyone with 2 casts of PW, but the evade, the stun and the faster attack rate makes that skill better than your autoattack.

Oddly enough, I still manage to kill monsters with 2 casts of PW. Not with, like, 100% probability. But fairly regularly. Certainly quite often with 2 PWs plus 1 autoattack.

Ichishi.9613:

Like gun 5 providing longer, more mobile protection for same cost and auto keeping weakness and cripple on top.

But deals no damage and doesn’t protect you from ranged attacks.
PW is worth using, if you are actually using it in PvE, I’m sure you use that skill over Pistol 5 for sure.

It does not protect me from ranged attacks. It makes mobs blind so their ranged attacks dont hit me.
Do note, field does not stop working if you need to move. But PW stops along with all its benefits and costs.

sorrow.2364:

evade+stun+more dps > autoattack

Damage is fine, it can still melt mobs’ hp bars. Obviously it won’t kill anyone with 2 casts of PW, but the evade, the stun and the faster attack rate makes that skill better than your autoattack.

It isn’t all about raw numbers guys, there are more factors that make a skill powerful.

You’re right in your last statement, that PW has more going for it than damage. However, it does do less DPS than auto attack.

Auto Attack:
Slightly more DPS
Can move
Can miss parts of the chain, lowering DPS
Cripples and weakens
No ini cost

PW:
Less DPS
Self-roots (allowing enemy to move out of the final strikes)
Evades for some of the duration
Interrupts
Costs initiative (potentially useful, with Assassin’s Reward)
No conditions
Higher hit volume (more on-hit and on-crit procs)

PW has some good stuff going for it, but with both Pistol Whip and Dancing Dagger nerfed, auto-attack is the single best DPS skill for any S/x combination. Personally, I’d like to see PW’s initial shot apply a short “burning” stack, it’d bring PW DPS above auto attack again, grant thieves access to burning, and allow PW to be slightly more effective in situations where the bulk of the strikes are dodged.

sorrow.2364:

evade+stun+more dps > autoattack

Damage is fine, it can still melt mobs’ hp bars. Obviously it won’t kill anyone with 2 casts of PW, but the evade, the stun and the faster attack rate makes that skill better than your autoattack.

It isn’t all about raw numbers guys, there are more factors that make a skill powerful.

Without raw damage, most scenarios favor the use of Black Powder over Pistol Whip. In fact, this is one of the biggest issues with the kit currently: now that Pistol Whip is no longer considered a damage dump, it directly competes against Black Powder for a role in our arsenal. Most situations will favor Black Powder however, especially since it’s a combo field. PW doesn’t really have a well defined use anymore now that it no longer does relevant damage, outside of getting health back via signet (which is very niche).

Blacksarevok.8104:

Without raw damage, most scenarios favor the use of Black Powder over Pistol Whip. In fact, this is one of the biggest issues with the kit currently: now that Pistol Whip is no longer considered a damage dump, it directly competes against Black Powder for a role in our arsenal. Most situations will favor Black Powder however, especially since it’s a combo field. PW doesn’t really have a well defined use anymore now that it no longer does relevant damage, outside of getting health back via signet (which is very niche).

Honestly, I still use PW quite frequently on my thief.
The evade is pretty awesome and allow me to do quick in’n’out fights with Infiltrator’s Strike without getting any hit at all thanks to the evade, while Black Powder still leave you exposed to ranged attack from arcers or mages around your target, pretty risky btw.

Obviously there are situations where Black Powder+Autoattack performs better than PW, but isn’t that meant to be right? I mean, every skill should have its use according to situations you are in and that’s the case of PW and BP.

About the root in place point, I doubt the mobs you are attacking evade any part of your PW. It never happened to me, neither in PvP with human players against. I don’t see how it can be happened to you.

sorrow.2364:

evade+stun+more dps > autoattack

Damage is fine, it can still melt mobs’ hp bars. Obviously it won’t kill anyone with 2 casts of PW, but the evade, the stun and the faster attack rate makes that skill better than your autoattack.

It isn’t all about raw numbers guys, there are more factors that make a skill powerful.

In most situations it’s better to use Black Powder and autoattack. Especially in group situations.

Edelweiss.9815:

In most situations it’s better to use Black Powder and autoattack. Especially in group situations.

Well, no.
There are very few situations were there is absolutely no enemy attacking from range, probably in low level area, and Black Powder make you exposed from long range attacks, which is a big downside in most cases.

Pistol Whip makes you unattackable for the whole channeling time. This means a lot.
It is like making a comparison between invulnerability and AoE blindness, you would prefer invulnerability in most cases.

For what reason might one be leaving ranged mobs at range? You can come to them or ball them with los, blind them. And melee mobs will follow you anyways

Ichishi.9613:

For what reason might one be leaving ranged mobs at range? You can come to them or ball them with los, blind them. And melee mobs will follow you anyways

You are not going to ball al the ranged mobs in the same place, that’s the point.

I agree that Pistol Whip should be granted the 15% damage back that was taken in a nerf a few patches ago for PVE purposes only, im glad Arenanet has began to seperate pve from pvp.

Pistol Whip and Black Powder are both great, the only real valid point to comment on here is that Pistol Whip was nerfed because when stacked with haste the burst was insane in pvp. In PvE that does not even apply, therefore the nerf is totally unjustified in terms of PvE. (I would even add to this that the 15% nerf was unjustified altogether given that the burst only really worked against noob glass cannons who didnt know how to dodge and didnt take a single stunbreak, in other words, didnt know how to play pvp, pistol whip even WITH haste is perhaps the most predictable ability ingame)

Give us the 15% back in PvE, and if you wanted to be really nice you could slightly increase the size of the Black Powder circle. :>

And yes, Black Powder and Pistol Whip generally apply to different scenarios. Black Powder is very strong for most trash pulls to basically nullify all damage if they can be grouped up. Against bosses however Blind has basically no effect, so time Pistol Whip correctly as your damage evasion and also remember that your auto attack can apply a small window of weakness/fumble which is nice on bosses if timed correctly. If specced correctly, on trash pulls you can basically spam both black powder and pistol whip due to insane initiative regen. Anyways, all that being said, what i said above still stands and the 15% should be added back to pistol whip in pve.

Pragmatist.1349:

I agree that Pistol Whip should be granted the 15% damage back that was taken in a nerf a few patches ago for PVE purposes only, im glad Arenanet has began to seperate pve from pvp.

Pistol Whip and Black Powder are both great, the only real valid point to comment on here is that Pistol Whip was nerfed because when stacked with haste the burst was insane in pvp. In PvE that does not even apply, therefore the nerf is totally unjustified in terms of PvE. (I would even add to this that the 15% nerf was unjustified altogether given that the burst only really worked against noob glass cannons who didnt know how to dodge and didnt take a single stunbreak, in other words, didnt know how to play pvp, pistol whip even WITH haste is perhaps the most predictable ability ingame)

Give us the 15% back in PvE, and if you wanted to be really nice you could slightly increase the size of the Black Powder circle. :>

And yes, Black Powder and Pistol Whip generally apply to different scenarios. Black Powder is very strong for most trash pulls to basically nullify all damage if they can be grouped up. Against bosses however Blind has basically no effect, so time Pistol Whip correctly as your damage evasion and also remember that your auto attack can apply a small window of weakness/fumble which is nice on bosses if timed correctly. If specced correctly, on trash pulls you can basically spam both black powder and pistol whip due to insane initiative regen. Anyways, all that being said, what i said above still stands and the 15% should be added back to pistol whip in pve.

Of course you want a skill to be better as it is now, but Pistol Whip is worth using after the nerf, that means that it was overpowered and now it is fine.
Looks like you are asking to overbuff your profession, not buffing something which is weak or doesn’t have any use.

If you want to figure out what kind of skills need a buff, just take a look into Necromancer signets.

sorrow.2364:

Pragmatist.1349:

I agree that Pistol Whip should be granted the 15% damage back that was taken in a nerf a few patches ago for PVE purposes only, im glad Arenanet has began to seperate pve from pvp.

Pistol Whip and Black Powder are both great, the only real valid point to comment on here is that Pistol Whip was nerfed because when stacked with haste the burst was insane in pvp. In PvE that does not even apply, therefore the nerf is totally unjustified in terms of PvE. (I would even add to this that the 15% nerf was unjustified altogether given that the burst only really worked against noob glass cannons who didnt know how to dodge and didnt take a single stunbreak, in other words, didnt know how to play pvp, pistol whip even WITH haste is perhaps the most predictable ability ingame)

Give us the 15% back in PvE, and if you wanted to be really nice you could slightly increase the size of the Black Powder circle. :>

And yes, Black Powder and Pistol Whip generally apply to different scenarios. Black Powder is very strong for most trash pulls to basically nullify all damage if they can be grouped up. Against bosses however Blind has basically no effect, so time Pistol Whip correctly as your damage evasion and also remember that your auto attack can apply a small window of weakness/fumble which is nice on bosses if timed correctly. If specced correctly, on trash pulls you can basically spam both black powder and pistol whip due to insane initiative regen. Anyways, all that being said, what i said above still stands and the 15% should be added back to pistol whip in pve.

Of course you want a skill to be better as it is now, but Pistol Whip is worth using after the nerf, that means that it was overpowered and now it is fine.
Looks like you are asking to overbuff your profession, not buffing something which is weak or doesn’t have any use.

If you want to figure out what kind of skills need a buff, just take a look into Necromancer signets.

I did not state that pistol whip was not worth using after the patch, infact i stated exactly the opposite :P. i regularly use both pistol whip and black powder, they are both great skills in many different situations. Im not asking for an overbuff at all, im simply stating that the 15% should be refunded back to pistol whip for pve purposes, as that was the figure that was unjustly removed from it. A dual skill like that should not have lower dps than autoattacking. And once again, the pistol whip skill was not nerfed because it was somehow magically OP in PVE, it was nerfed due to haste PVP issues, therefore if arenanet really disliked that they should nerf it in pvp only (or even better rework Haste, which is the real issue here), not in pve where, as Arenanet themselves stated, Thief needs higher constant damage. And im not talking about Necromancer signets or thief venoms or traps etc etc etc. here because this forum is about refunding Pistol Whip its 15% back. Simple as really.

And ontop of that Unload for dual pistols should be refunded its 10% in PVE, seeing as though that was only nerfed because of haste pvp issues.

Pragmatist.1349:

I did not state that pistol whip was not worth using after the patch, infact i stated exactly the opposite :P. i regularly use both pistol whip and black powder, they are both great skills in many different situations. Im not asking for an overbuff at all, im simply stating that the 15% should be refunded back to pistol whip for pve purposes, as that was the figure that was unjustly removed from it. A dual skill like that should not have lower dps than autoattacking. And once again, the pistol whip skill was not nerfed because it was somehow magically OP in PVE, it was nerfed due to haste PVP issues, therefore if arenanet really disliked that they should nerf it in pvp only (or even better rework Haste, which is the real issue here), not in pve where, as Arenanet themselves stated, Thief needs higher constant damage. And im not talking about Necromancer signets or thief venoms or traps etc etc etc. here because this forum is about refunding Pistol Whip its 15% back. Simple as really.

And ontop of that Unload for dual pistols should be refunded its 10% in PVE, seeing as though that was only nerfed because of haste pvp issues.

The point is that as long as the skill is worth using, it doesn’t need to be buffed.
Once PW will get its damage back, probably it will be better than Black Powder in most situations, creating unbalance.

If ArenaNet thought that PW needed to be nerfed only for PvP, they would have nerfed his damage in PvP only, like they did with many other skills. Probably PW needed a nerf in both PvP and PvE, because it outperformed in effectiveness other thief builds.

sorrow.2364:

Pragmatist.1349:

I did not state that pistol whip was not worth using after the patch, infact i stated exactly the opposite :P. i regularly use both pistol whip and black powder, they are both great skills in many different situations. Im not asking for an overbuff at all, im simply stating that the 15% should be refunded back to pistol whip for pve purposes, as that was the figure that was unjustly removed from it. A dual skill like that should not have lower dps than autoattacking. And once again, the pistol whip skill was not nerfed because it was somehow magically OP in PVE, it was nerfed due to haste PVP issues, therefore if arenanet really disliked that they should nerf it in pvp only (or even better rework Haste, which is the real issue here), not in pve where, as Arenanet themselves stated, Thief needs higher constant damage. And im not talking about Necromancer signets or thief venoms or traps etc etc etc. here because this forum is about refunding Pistol Whip its 15% back. Simple as really.

And ontop of that Unload for dual pistols should be refunded its 10% in PVE, seeing as though that was only nerfed because of haste pvp issues.

The point is that as long as the skill is worth using, it doesn’t need to be buffed.
Once PW will get its damage back, probably it will be better than Black Powder in most situations, creating unbalance.

If ArenaNet thought that PW needed to be nerfed only for PvP, they would have nerfed his damage in PvP only, like they did with many other skills. Probably PW needed a nerf in both PvP and PvE, because it outperformed in effectiveness other thief builds.

Laughable, just because a skill is worth using it does not deserve a buff? If something is worth using but abit substandard and was nerfed for highly questionable reasons then buffing it is completely justified. And no, it wont become better than Black Powder in most situations at all seeing as though Black Powder serves basically a completely different purpose, namely, Blind debuff damage mitigation for your entire party as opposed to a damage evasion that only works for yourself.

Arenanet wouldnt have nerfed PW for pvp only seeing as though they only started doing that this previous patch after finally listening to the Thief community about seperating pve from pvp like they did in GW1. Until this previous patch Arenanet tried to create a balance without seperating the pve/pvp spheres, that attempt failed, so they finally listened and resorted to seperating pve from pvp so that some class balance can finally be achieved.

Beforehand PW did not somehow outperform other pve builds in terms of effectiveness. Quite a few other builds were highly effective, if not just as effective. But obviously each build serves a different purpose and achieves that in its own way.

Pragmatist.1349:

Laughable, just because a skill is worth using it does not deserve a buff? If something is worth using but abit substandard and was nerfed for highly questionable reasons then buffing it is completely justified. And no, it wont become better than Black Powder in most situations at all seeing as though Black Powder serves basically a completely different purpose, namely, Blind debuff damage mitigation for your entire party as opposed to a damage evasion that only works for yourself.

Arenanet wouldnt have nerfed PW for pvp only seeing as though they only started doing that this previous patch after finally listening to the Thief community about seperating pve from pvp like they did in GW1. Until this previous patch Arenanet tried to create a balance without seperating the pve/pvp spheres, that attempt failed, so they finally listened and resorted to seperating pve from pvp so that some class balance can finally be achieved.

Beforehand PW did not somehow outperform other pve builds in terms of effectiveness. Quite a few other builds were highly effective, if not just as effective. But obviously each build serves a different purpose and achieves that in its own way.

A skill which is underpowered isn’t worth using because you have better alternative to that skill. A skill which is worth using means that it has its place on your bar and you are able to use that skill effectively, so it doesn’t need a buff because it is enough powerful.

Black Powder isn’t exactly for your party considering its radius, it is most likely a defensive skill from melee enemies only for youself.

The S/P build is a more defensive oriented weapon set, the damage PW had was extremely high considering its benefits. So yes, overall the damage nerf was fair, because it highlights the fact that PW isn’t meant to deal massive damage but it is meant to be a skill which sacrifice raw numbers in order to have better defensive capability in return.
Before the nerf, PW had the same dps of Hundred Blades. You would agree with me that it was quite unbalanced considering that Hundred Blades doesn’t have all the benefits PW has.

sorrow.2364:

Pragmatist.1349:

Laughable, just because a skill is worth using it does not deserve a buff? If something is worth using but abit substandard and was nerfed for highly questionable reasons then buffing it is completely justified. And no, it wont become better than Black Powder in most situations at all seeing as though Black Powder serves basically a completely different purpose, namely, Blind debuff damage mitigation for your entire party as opposed to a damage evasion that only works for yourself.

Arenanet wouldnt have nerfed PW for pvp only seeing as though they only started doing that this previous patch after finally listening to the Thief community about seperating pve from pvp like they did in GW1. Until this previous patch Arenanet tried to create a balance without seperating the pve/pvp spheres, that attempt failed, so they finally listened and resorted to seperating pve from pvp so that some class balance can finally be achieved.

Beforehand PW did not somehow outperform other pve builds in terms of effectiveness. Quite a few other builds were highly effective, if not just as effective. But obviously each build serves a different purpose and achieves that in its own way.

A skill which is underpowered isn’t worth using because you have better alternative to that skill. A skill which is worth using means that it has its place on your bar and you are able to use that skill effectively, so it doesn’t need a buff because it is enough powerful.

Black Powder isn’t exactly for your party considering its radius, it is most likely a defensive skill from melee enemies only for youself.

The S/P build is a more defensive oriented weapon set, the damage PW had was extremely high considering its benefits. So yes, overall the damage nerf was fair, because it highlights the fact that PW isn’t meant to deal massive damage but it is meant to be a skill which sacrifice raw numbers in order to have better defensive capability in return.
Before the nerf, PW had the same dps of Hundred Blades. You would agree with me that it was quite unbalanced considering that Hundred Blades doesn’t have all the benefits PW has.

Just because a skill is worth using does not mean that it is absolutely optimal, also, PW is not only a weapon skill its a Dual Skill which is one of the main features of the Thief class. A dual skill such as PW should have higher dps than S/P autoattack given that you are rooted (thus can be easily evaded if a mob moves from your range) and that it has an initiative cost. Also, PW is a weapon skill that is on your bar regardless of what you choose for your utilities. My comments that the nerf should have been for pvp only still stands.

Black Powder isnt exactly for your party? I just loled. It locks down aoe and ranged. And also gives melee players an easier time in melee range. Its perhaps the Thief’s greatest pve support. Try going TA and doing the final pull of 3 knights and Leurant with a thief, you can basically all stack on the same position and spam Black Powder, absolutely zero of their damage gets through. If that does not support the party then i dont know what does. Thats just one example, there are hundreds if not thousands more examples.

PW didnt deal massive damage before the patch. Its damage was just fine, and again it doesnt matter if it had the same dps as hundred blades, seeing as though Greatsword is mediocre dps for pve, just as sword/pistol is. (btw both HB and PW skills are very easily evaded in pvp), and again the issue with pistol whip was not its damage, it was when it was stacked with Quickness, its Quickness that is broken, not PW. Arenanet themselves have stated that Thief needs more damage for PVE, Pistol Whip should be refunded its damage, thats a start. Also Thief is a different class than Warrior, in PVE/PVP a warrior has higher Armor and one of the highest healthpools (whereas Thief has lower armor and one of the lowest healthpools), thus warrior can take more hits, whereas Thief’s main strength in Arenanets own words is the ability to avoid damage.

Who ever said that its a skill where you sacrifice raw numbers in favour of defensive capability? The S/P combo combines both dps and survivability, it has decent levels of both. The Dual Skill of this combo should have higher dps than autoattacking and higher survivability than when autoattacking, simple as.

Its not like im asking for some huge unjustified buff, im asking for Pistol Whip to be refunded its damage in PVE, damage that was unjustly taken from it.

Just because Arenanet does something doesnt make it inherently correct, the community can excorcise its right to challenge the decisions of Arenanet.

I wanted to put this in my above message but the message length was too long
EDIT FOR ABOVE MESSAGE:

Also, i find your comparison with HB abit laughable when talking about PVE tbh. I almost laugh at warriors who go Greatsword in PVE because its dps is mediocre when compared with their highest dps combos of dual axes or axe/mace combo which also both bring more support in terms of debuffs. Warrior does not have an evasion on HB because they are compensated with higher armor and one of the highest healthpools ingame. S/P damage (even before the nerf) was mediocre compared with our highest damage output of D/D, and was only just a little bit higher than our overall best PVE weapon (Shortbow).

Pragmatist.1349:

S/P damage (even before the nerf) was mediocre compared with our highest damage output of D/D, and was only just a little bit higher than our overall best PVE weapon (Shortbow).

This is not entirely true. Against 1 target current auto attack is about on par with dagger auto for DPS, superior to LDB depending how powerful your bleeds are, and better/worse than Heartseeker depending on enemy HP. Against 2-3 targets, sword auto completely blows away dagger DPS for everything but death blossom. Daggers get backstab to burst, but the actual DPS on BS is relatively low due to positioning and the rate at which one can enter stealth. Since pre-nerf PW was even better than auto attack, it quite handily out-DPS’d most dagger skills in most situation.

As for sword v. shortbow, sword is superior right now in a DPS sense for most situations with 1-3 targets, but shortbow pulls ahead at 4-5 targets due to cluster bomb’s ability to hit 5. Shortbow is, of course, more malleable and has better utility. So, again, pre-nerf PW stacked up pretty well against shortbow DPS-wise.

Please don’t perpetuate the misconception that sword damage is low, the auto attack stacks up quite well, it is just boring that there’s no longer a burst option thanks to continual nerfs (first PW, and now DD and C&D nerfs).

All that said, my favored boost to PW would be giving the initial pistol shot a 3 second~ burn, injecting some condition synergy into S/P, giving us access to a condition we didn’t previously have, and allowing a PW that is mostly dodged to still cause some harm.

Tulisin.6945:

Pragmatist.1349:

S/P damage (even before the nerf) was mediocre compared with our highest damage output of D/D, and was only just a little bit higher than our overall best PVE weapon (Shortbow).

This is not entirely true. Against 1 target current auto attack is about on par with dagger auto for DPS, superior to LDB depending how powerful your bleeds are, and better/worse than Heartseeker depending on enemy HP. Against 2-3 targets, sword auto completely blows away dagger DPS for everything but death blossom. Daggers get backstab to burst, but the actual DPS on BS is relatively low due to positioning and the rate at which one can enter stealth. Since pre-nerf PW was even better than auto attack, it quite handily out-DPS’d most dagger skills in most situation.

As for sword v. shortbow, sword is superior right now in a DPS sense for most situations with 1-3 targets, but shortbow pulls ahead at 4-5 targets due to cluster bomb’s ability to hit 5. Shortbow is, of course, more malleable and has better utility. So, again, pre-nerf PW stacked up pretty well against shortbow DPS-wise.

Please don’t perpetuate the misconception that sword damage is low, the auto attack stacks up quite well, it is just boring that there’s no longer a burst option thanks to continual nerfs (first PW, and now DD and C&D nerfs).

All that said, my favored boost to PW would be giving the initial pistol shot a 3 second~ burn, injecting some condition synergy into S/P, giving us access to a condition we didn’t previously have, and allowing a PW that is mostly dodged to still cause some harm.

I did not say the damage was low :P i said the damage was Mediocre. As conditions spec D/D is higher dps on multiple targets than S/P and Shortbow, s/p on a single target is lower than D/D which is our max single target. Yeah sword is better aoe as you said on 3 targets, but more than that its SB.

I dont think you disagreed with anything i said tbh, all i said still stands. The 15% should come back.

Pragmatist, you should learn some concision when posting your thoughts.
Honestly, that wall of text let people lose the will to discuss.

Anyway, the fact that a skill gives you pretty long evade, stun and high damage as it was is out of any form of balance. If you add that this skill is on a thief bar, so it can be used more than one time in a row, makes the balancing way more difficult.

The autoattack has lower dps than Pistol Whip, of course. Just test it out.
Also if Pistol Whip had lower dps compared to autoattack, it would have meant absolutely nothing. Bunch of autoattacks in this game have higher dps than other skills in the same bar, but that other skills have some utility built in that compensate the lower dps.

sorrow.2364:

The autoattack has lower dps than Pistol Whip, of course. Just test it out.

In actual testing, the opposite is true.

sorrow.2364:

Pragmatist, you should learn some concision when posting your thoughts.
Honestly, that wall of text let people lose the will to discuss.

Anyway, the fact that a skill gives you pretty long evade, stun and high damage as it was is out of any form of balance. If you add that this skill is on a thief bar, so it can be used more than one time in a row, makes the balancing way more difficult.

The autoattack has lower dps than Pistol Whip, of course. Just test it out.
Also if Pistol Whip had lower dps compared than autoattack, that mean absolutely nothing. Bunch of autoattacks in this game have higher dps than other skills in the same bar, but that other skills have some utility built in that compensate the lower dps.

There is always alot to discuss with these issues. And once again in PVE there was no balancing issue. The issue was with Quickness + PW in PVP. Everything i have said so far basically still stands.

Arenanet you should really mark this post and read everything, then give us the 15% back on PW in pve :P

Tulisin.6945:

sorrow.2364:

The autoattack has lower dps than Pistol Whip, of course. Just test it out.

In actual testing, the opposite is true.

Not entirely.
On a really good PW I’ll crit 11 (average is 8k)
On a auto attack cycle I’ll deal 4-12k…depending on the crits (average is 6-8k)

BabelFish.7234:

Tulisin.6945:

sorrow.2364:

The autoattack has lower dps than Pistol Whip, of course. Just test it out.

In actual testing, the opposite is true.

Not entirely.
On a really good PW I’ll crit 11 (average is 8k)
On a auto attack cycle I’ll deal 4-12k…depending on the crits (average is 6-8k)

A full AA cycle doesn’t take as long as a full PW though, so even if they were completely equal damage per use (1 auto chain and 1 PW) auto would still be better.

sorrow.2364:

evade+stun+more dps > autoattack

Damage is fine, it can still melt mobs’ hp bars. Obviously it won’t kill anyone with 2 casts of PW, but the evade, the stun and the faster attack rate makes that skill better than your autoattack.

It isn’t all about raw numbers guys, there are more factors that make a skill powerful.

actually it’s evade (while rooted in place) + stun (that is shorter duration than the cast time to use it) + less damage.

You realize that for most mobs I can run around them in circles autoattacking and they never do damage to me. I can pistol whip and get knocked down in the instant between the stun wearing off and the evade beginning, or get hit at the end of the evade while I’m still rooted in place.

Evade was never the core function of Pistol Whip, evade was a thing put in to help compensate for the fact that you are rooted during the animation and left wide open to attack. You evade for 1 second out of a 2.65 second animation.

The “stun” is only useful as an interrupt, it’s too short otherwise. I can stun Risen brutes, and then they get out of the stun and knock me down with their hammer before the evade comes in, happens all the time, unless I specifically interrupt their knockdown attack. It also does nothing to champions.

So no, it’s better to do 1 of two things most of the time:

1. use black powder and autoattack them to death, taking no damage.
2. autoattack while circle strafing them, taking no damage.

Either way results in higher dps btw.

Blacksarevok.8104:

sorrow.2364:

evade+stun+more dps > autoattack

Damage is fine, it can still melt mobs’ hp bars. Obviously it won’t kill anyone with 2 casts of PW, but the evade, the stun and the faster attack rate makes that skill better than your autoattack.

It isn’t all about raw numbers guys, there are more factors that make a skill powerful.

Without raw damage, most scenarios favor the use of Black Powder over Pistol Whip. In fact, this is one of the biggest issues with the kit currently: now that Pistol Whip is no longer considered a damage dump, it directly competes against Black Powder for a role in our arsenal. Most situations will favor Black Powder however, especially since it’s a combo field. PW doesn’t really have a well defined use anymore now that it no longer does relevant damage, outside of getting health back via signet (which is very niche).

My main uses of pistol whip right now are as an interrupt and a self heal, and it’s a worse interrupt than headshot.

sorrow.2364:

Edelweiss.9815:

In most situations it’s better to use Black Powder and autoattack. Especially in group situations.

Well, no.
There are very few situations were there is absolutely no enemy attacking from range, probably in low level area, and Black Powder make you exposed from long range attacks, which is a big downside in most cases.

Pistol Whip makes you unattackable for the whole channeling time. This means a lot.
It is like making a comparison between invulnerability and AoE blindness, you would prefer invulnerability in most cases.

No, it doesn’t. It makes you unattackable for about 40% of the channel time in the middle. You can easily take hits while pistol whipping. It is an unreliable evade.

Pistol Whip evades the whole channel time, the time in which the thief swings his sword exactly.
The evade is quite long and reliable. The stun, also, makes sure that about an half of your whole channel time lands, it isn’t meant to be an interrupt.
The only skill which is similiar to Pistol Whip is Blurried Frenzy of Mesmer, which deals less damage, has no stun, roots you in place but has a bit longer invulnerability. No one said that Blurred Frenzy is a bad skill because it deals low damage.

sorrow.2364:

No one said that Blurred Frenzy is a bad skill because it deals low damage.

Pistol whip http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pistol_Whip 0.75 cast without evade
Blurred Frenzy http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blurred_Frenzy 0.5 cast with evade

mesmer have 2 second immobilized
thief only 1 second

Marduh.4603:

sorrow.2364:

No one said that Blurred Frenzy is a bad skill because it deals low damage.

Pistol whip http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pistol_Whip 0.75 cast without evade
Blurred Frenzy http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blurred_Frenzy 0.5 cast with evade

mesmer have 2 second immobilized
thief only 1 second

You’re right.
0.75 seconds will surely get you killed.

sorrow.2364:

Pistol Whip evades the whole channel time, the time in which the thief swings his sword exactly.
The evade is quite long and reliable. The stun, also, makes sure that about an half of your whole channel time lands, it isn’t meant to be an interrupt.
The only skill which is similiar to Pistol Whip is Blurried Frenzy of Mesmer, which deals less damage, has no stun, roots you in place but has a bit longer invulnerability. No one said that Blurred Frenzy is a bad skill because it deals low damage.

Wrong, there is exactly 1s of evade in Pistol whip. the animation breaks down as this.

0.75s: can move, windup time before stun, no evade.
.75s-1.25s: mob is stunned, rooted, can be attacked by other mobs and take damage during this time.
1.25-1.40s: rooted, start of sword swinging, no evade
1.40-2.40s: rooted, sword swinging, evading
2.40s-2.65s: rooted, sword swinging, no evading

It’s a small window but it exists. open up on a Risen Brute with pistol whip rather than waiting for his knockdown (and interrupting it) sometime, you’ll see.

Devildoc.6721:

.75s-1.25s: mob is stunned, rooted, can be attacked by other mobs and take damage during this time.

Stun rounds up to 1 second

Marduh.4603:

Devildoc.6721:

.75s-1.25s: mob is stunned, rooted, can be attacked by other mobs and take damage during this time.

Stun rounds up to 1 second

then why am I getting hit after stunning the mob while swinging my sword?

There’s a gap between.

Devildoc.6721:

then why am I getting hit after stunning the mob while swinging my sword?

There’s a gap between.

Sign holds 1 second debuff on the target. Use the stopwatch.

sorrow.2364:

Pistol Whip evades the whole channel time, the time in which the thief swings his sword exactly.
The evade is quite long and reliable. The stun, also, makes sure that about an half of your whole channel time lands, it isn’t meant to be an interrupt.
The only skill which is similiar to Pistol Whip is Blurried Frenzy of Mesmer, which deals less damage, has no stun, roots you in place but has a bit longer invulnerability. No one said that Blurred Frenzy is a bad skill because it deals low damage.

The evade can happen anytime during the channel but you’re still susceptible to being attacked while using it.

Marduh.4603:

Devildoc.6721:

then why am I getting hit after stunning the mob while swinging my sword?

There’s a gap between.

Sign holds 1 second debuff on the target. Use the stopwatch.

Okay, but I am being hit while swinging my sword, early in the animation of swinging the sword, I get knocked down, and the channel is interrupted.

If what you’re saying is true, then there should be no way I get hit during the channel. However it happens frequently.

Hmm…. i basically see the vast majority of this discussion about evasion time and dps on pistol whip etc to be totally irrelevant. In my posts above iv already demonstrated the 15% should be refunded :P

R.I.P pistol whip ;__;

Pragmatist.1349:

Hmm…. i basically see the vast majority of this discussion about evasion time and dps on pistol whip etc to be totally irrelevant. In my posts above iv already demonstrated the 15% should be refunded :P

Your only “demonstration” was making the point that PW was never really overpowered in the first place except when used in conjunction with Haste (exactly what everyone said when the nerf happened). While I agree, this isn’t particularly compelling.

I’d like to see PW go back to pre-nerf state, at least in non-competitive PvP situations, but you’re not bringing up anything ANet hasn’t heard before.

I agree. This nerf should be reverted in PvE now that they started to make PvP versions of skills.

The extra damage would be nice, but the real use of the skill is the evade.

Blind is only 10% effective on bosses, and 0% effective on AOE’s. Those are the 2 things that actually kill you. I don’t think i’ve even been killed just by normal mobs attacking, they die way before that ever happens.