Guild Wars 2

I really I am asking this as a real question. I am not saying every nerf recently or formerly was unfair or unjust. What I am asking the current thief pop (try to put your fervent emotion aside please) is if the class were nerfed further do you think it could survive.

What do I mean by survive? Well, I mean would many players abandon the class ala ele post big DD nerfs. Or, would they stay the course and stick with it (which many eles did).

To ask it more directly and detailed.

1). If your current build were nerfed would you leave the class?

2). How much of a nerf would it have to be (scaling slightly reduce effectiveness to completely break the build)?

3).Would it matter if the nerf was Spvp only, or WvW only?

4). Would it matter if the nerf can with a buff?

5). What type of nerf would most likely get you to leave the class ie stealth, evasion, burst dps, sustained dps, condi damage, etc.?

Answering by people who generally main or play thief heavily would be great. I would additionally love it if this doesn’t get flamed. The only community to ask this type of question is the community that plays the class.

Thank you in advance.

TheGuy.3568:

1). If your current build were nerfed would you leave the class?

No. I’m on my umpteenth build since beta. If I couldn’t make my current build work, I’d just switch to another one.

2). How much of a nerf would it have to be (scaling slightly reduce effectiveness to completely break the build)?

It’d have to either be a large nerf to damage (maybe Pistol Whip replaced with Water Pistol), or small nerfs to multiple things at once (dodging, healing, damage, utility of trait lines) to break the thing.

3).Would it matter if the nerf was Spvp only, or WvW only?

If it was sPvP only, I wouldn’t care. If it was WvW only, I’d still keep it around for PvE.

4). Would it matter if the nerf can with a buff?

Depends. The nerf to various things in the Dec 10th patch also came with buffs (init regain, Pistol Whip aftercast) that arguably made the build better than it was before.

5). What type of nerf would most likely get you to leave the class ie stealth, evasion, burst dps, sustained dps, condi damage, etc.?

If they axe evasion, I am probably done with Thief. It’s very nearly the last universally-useful defensive mechanic that we have left. Stealth depends on the details (I currently do not use stealth anyway), DPS is too vague, and I’m not much for condition damage builds. I’d probably also consider pulling the ripcord if they nerfed Shadowstep (the mechanic, not the utility).

There will be more nerfs.

The nature of the class makes it annoying to fight despite how ineffective it is (see: “run away warrior specs”). It also makes it a lot of fun to play meaning that even though you have to work 3x as hard as some other classes to do the same things the overall satisfaction is greater. What I’m trying to say is that even if they nerf us into oblivion people will still be calling for nerfs because stealth, by it’s very existence, causes some people to have mini-strokes. The flip side is that even when useless people will still play it just because of the fun mechanics.

So yes it will survive. The real question is if areanet balances off of quantitative data or popular opinion.

wish they would give us back our stun breaker on the sword or something to replace it still not happy about that part of the dec 10 nerf.

Kadin.2356:

The nature of the class makes it annoying to fight despite how ineffective it is (see: “run away warrior specs”). It also makes it a lot of fun to play meaning that even though you have to work 3x as hard as some other classes to do the same things the overall satisfaction is greater. What I’m trying to say is that even if they nerf us into oblivion people will still be calling for nerfs because stealth, by it’s very existence, causes some people to have mini-strokes. The flip side is that even when useless people will still play it just because of the fun mechanics.

So yes it will survive. The real question is if areanet balances off of quantitative data or popular opinion.

This post is the nutshell. If there were any more nerf’s like the dec 10 ones thieves would have to see some significant buffs so that they actually have an idea of what anet want the thief to be.

I played s/d mainly with a bit of s/p for dungeons/fractals but decided to reroll just before the dec 10 patch. I was growing tired of feeling i was shoe-horned into one role, one build and also the negativity around the class. I just didn’t feel like the class had a positive future, atleast in the short term.

I loved the thief in all game modes so it would be sad to see it destroyed so much that players even more dedicated than me be forced to reroll class or MMO.

Yes, of course this class can survive more nerfs. It remains the best roaming wvw class, bar none, already.

As long as there are new players who are aware of these forums and post their sob stories, yes there will always be nerfs. Question isn’t if we can survive more nerfs as much as when this will happen. Maybe they’ll redo some things along the road and “change” rather than flat “nerf” kind of what the dec 10th patch did but that’s a far fetched dream at the rate people shed tears when they get ganked for roaming in wvw.

Leave the class? No. If (when?) it becomes unplayable or GW stops being a game for me, I would leave the game. I have got to much time on this char and to little energy to really start another and the story and PvE is simply not compelling enough to get me through another 80 levels. Also, the GW’s community’s general hatred (of thieves) is a great disappointment.

At this point I’ve decided to not spend a single gem or trade gems until there is some stability.

Sanduskel.1850:

Yes, of course this class can survive more nerfs. It remains the best roaming wvw class, bar none, already.

Its already the least played class. More nerfs of any kind will simply push it further and further into obscurity. Very good players will continue to play it but at some point even most of them will only play it in more limited ways and use it in only limited roles. As someone mention it makes a great harvesting character which deserves a “lol” in that he statement is so sad but true its not funny. Modestly skilled to good players will walk away from it in mass – in fact they already have.

I think the real question is: At what point does working harder than any other class for the same reward stop being “rewarding” and become “foolish”?

1) i am already close to uninstalling this game tbh because all i face is engis in pvp and it is pretty much hopeless to fight them on thief; if they nerfed build i play (d/p) i don’t think there would be any really viable tpvp build left so i wouldn’t be able to pvp really unless i reroll other class…

2) i am not quite sure, there are not many options left really… i guess if our utilities got nerfed it would be the end, at least in pvp

3) i would assume majority play in wvw since pvp community is relative small, so wvw changes would probably have bigger impact

4) considering that the buffs we got recently were more of tooltipp change and placement of useless traits in lower tier…. yeah go figure

5) any nerf to survivability… it is already very very low

Kadin.2356:

The nature of the class makes it annoying to fight despite how ineffective it is (see: “run away warrior specs”). It also makes it a lot of fun to play meaning that even though you have to work 3x as hard as some other classes to do the same things the overall satisfaction is greater. What I’m trying to say is that even if they nerf us into oblivion people will still be calling for nerfs because stealth, by it’s very existence, causes some people to have mini-strokes. The flip side is that even when useless people will still play it just because of the fun mechanics.

So yes it will survive. The real question is if areanet balances off of quantitative data or popular opinion.

recent nerfs indicate the latest…. i really wish they would actually look into thief issues and not what issues other classes have with thieves :/

Arrow.4619:

Sanduskel.1850:

Yes, of course this class can survive more nerfs. It remains the best roaming wvw class, bar none, already.

Its already the least played class. More nerfs of any kind will simply push it further and further into obscurity. Very good players will continue to play it but at some point even most of them will only play it in more limited ways and use it in only limited roles. As someone mention it makes a great harvesting character which deserves a “lol” in that he statement is so sad but true its not funny. Modestly skilled to good players will walk away from it in mass – in fact they already have.

I think the real question is: At what point does working harder than any other class for the same reward stop being “rewarding” and become “foolish”?

I disagree. There are many thieves roaming in wvw, and the map chat is full of venom and hatred against our class. I dont think we have to work harder than any other class in wvw. On demand stealth makes the class quite easy imho. Thieves are without a doubt the most powerful roaming class in wvw, and they do well in zergs if played correctly.

Sanduskel.1850:

Arrow.4619:

Sanduskel.1850:

Yes, of course this class can survive more nerfs. It remains the best roaming wvw class, bar none, already.

Its already the least played class. More nerfs of any kind will simply push it further and further into obscurity. Very good players will continue to play it but at some point even most of them will only play it in more limited ways and use it in only limited roles. As someone mention it makes a great harvesting character which deserves a “lol” in that he statement is so sad but true its not funny. Modestly skilled to good players will walk away from it in mass – in fact they already have.

I think the real question is: At what point does working harder than any other class for the same reward stop being “rewarding” and become “foolish”?

I disagree. There are many thieves roaming in wvw, and the map chat is full of venom and hatred against our class. I dont think we have to work harder than any other class in wvw. On demand stealth makes the class quite easy imho. Thieves are without a doubt the most powerful roaming class in wvw, and they do well in zergs if played correctly.

I think I already explained why that is and how little bearing it has on our effectiveness. Thieves are the undisputed kings of WvW roaming, by design I would think. That does not justify our glaring weaknesses in most other aspects of the game.

Cynz.9437:

1) i am already close to uninstalling this game tbh because all i face is engis in pvp and it is pretty much hopeless to fight them on thief; if they nerfed build i play (d/p) i don’t think there would be any really viable tpvp build left so i wouldn’t be able to pvp really unless i reroll other class…

2) i am not quite sure, there are not many options left really… i guess if our utilities got nerfed it would be the end, at least in pvp

3) i would assume majority play in wvw since pvp community is relative small, so wvw changes would probably have bigger impact

4) considering that the buffs we got recently were more of tooltipp change and placement of useless traits in lower tier…. yeah go figure

5) any nerf to survivability… it is already very very low

Kadin.2356:

The nature of the class makes it annoying to fight despite how ineffective it is (see: “run away warrior specs”). It also makes it a lot of fun to play meaning that even though you have to work 3x as hard as some other classes to do the same things the overall satisfaction is greater. What I’m trying to say is that even if they nerf us into oblivion people will still be calling for nerfs because stealth, by it’s very existence, causes some people to have mini-strokes. The flip side is that even when useless people will still play it just because of the fun mechanics.

So yes it will survive. The real question is if areanet balances off of quantitative data or popular opinion.

recent nerfs indicate the latest…. i really wish they would actually look into thief issues and not what issues other classes have with thieves :/

I honestly think that unless more game modes were introduced in s/tpvp then the thief will always be a hot join class. With such large conquest zones and AoE circles its just not suited to such a small scale map with such a focused objective. Take the facts that from the scoreboard they already know your a thief and after your first kill know your build its easily avoidable/counterable while still securing the win or holding out for reinforcements.

What’s the definition of survive? Like ele is currently with spvp?

pulupulu.9730:

What’s the definition of survive? Like ele is currently with spvp?

More like ele post the DD nerfs before fresh air entered the meta.

Arrow.4619:

Sanduskel.1850:

Yes, of course this class can survive more nerfs. It remains the best roaming wvw class, bar none, already.

Its already the least played class.

Least played? lol Go to wvw and roam a bit. 50% of solo-ers are still thieves. (bs’ed numbers, but its not that far off from 50%)

The Game Slayer.7632:

Arrow.4619:

Sanduskel.1850:

Yes, of course this class can survive more nerfs. It remains the best roaming wvw class, bar none, already.

Its already the least played class.

Least played? lol Go to wvw and roam a bit. 50% of solo-ers are still thieves. (bs’ed numbers, but its not that far off from 50%)

Because thieves aren’t good at zerging, so they’re forced into roaming whether they like it or not. Every other class has some place inside of a zerg other than “blast finisher dump”.

Viking Jorun.5413:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Arrow.4619:

Sanduskel.1850:

Yes, of course this class can survive more nerfs. It remains the best roaming wvw class, bar none, already.

Its already the least played class.

Least played? lol Go to wvw and roam a bit. 50% of solo-ers are still thieves. (bs’ed numbers, but its not that far off from 50%)

Because thieves aren’t good at zerging, so they’re forced into roaming whether they like it or not. Every other class has some place inside of a zerg other than “blast finisher dump”.

Too bad he couldn’t be bothered to read the entire post. I believe I wrote something along the lines of:

Very good players will continue to play it but at some point even most of them will only play it in more limited ways and use it in only limited roles. As someone mention it makes a great harvesting character which deserves a “lol” in that the statement is so sad but true its not funny. Modestly skilled to good players will walk away from it in mass – in fact they already have.

First Point: Congratulations on having discovered the one thing the thief class is apparently good for as pretty much everything kittened up. The fact that solo roamers are often thieves doesn’t mean the class is played by a significantly large portion of the player base – rather that it is in fact played by a tiny minority of the player base at this point. Congratulations for making my point for me.

Second Point: So what if they are? What is it exactly the solo roamers do that is so terribly important or effective in the larger WvW scheme? I’ve done it and I know its fun but so what? I’d really like to understand why anyone thinks this important – to me its a lot like saying: Well there are 3 or 4 dungeons that the thief is really good in! Yeah, too bad the game is a little bigger than that . . .

The Game Slayer.7632:

Arrow.4619:

Sanduskel.1850:

Yes, of course this class can survive more nerfs. It remains the best roaming wvw class, bar none, already.

Its already the least played class.

Least played? lol Go to wvw and roam a bit. 50% of solo-ers are still thieves. (bs’ed numbers, but its not that far off from 50%)

Roamers are a small part of the Wvw players. With 50+ man zergs being common, the 5 roamers capping camps and yaks and half of them thieves they do come close to being the least played class.

You are that guy that complained about Devourer Venom being so OP, are you not?

Viking Jorun.5413:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Arrow.4619:

Sanduskel.1850:

Yes, of course this class can survive more nerfs. It remains the best roaming wvw class, bar none, already.

Its already the least played class.

Least played? lol Go to wvw and roam a bit. 50% of solo-ers are still thieves. (bs’ed numbers, but its not that far off from 50%)

Because thieves aren’t good at zerging, so they’re forced into roaming whether they like it or not. Every other class has some place inside of a zerg other than “blast finisher dump”.

I use my thief entirely for zerging, its fun, not to mention powerful.

Thief needs more nerfs, that’s the only way it can survive in the long run.

1). If your current build were nerfed would you leave the class?
-My build has been nerfed multiple times already lmao, I’m not even playing the game now.

2). How much of a nerf would it have to be (scaling slightly reduce effectiveness to completely break the build)?
-The dec.10 nerf

3).Would it matter if the nerf was Spvp only, or WvW only?
-Yes

4). Would it matter if the nerf can with a buff?
-Yes but we never got any real buffs with the nerfs

5). What type of nerf would most likely get you to leave the class ie stealth, evasion, burst dps, sustained dps, condi damage, etc.?
-Mobility, core system change, sustained DPS

Kadin.2356:

Sanduskel.1850:

Arrow.4619:

Sanduskel.1850:

Yes, of course this class can survive more nerfs. It remains the best roaming wvw class, bar none, already.

Its already the least played class. More nerfs of any kind will simply push it further and further into obscurity. Very good players will continue to play it but at some point even most of them will only play it in more limited ways and use it in only limited roles. As someone mention it makes a great harvesting character which deserves a “lol” in that he statement is so sad but true its not funny. Modestly skilled to good players will walk away from it in mass – in fact they already have.

I think the real question is: At what point does working harder than any other class for the same reward stop being “rewarding” and become “foolish”?

I disagree. There are many thieves roaming in wvw, and the map chat is full of venom and hatred against our class. I dont think we have to work harder than any other class in wvw. On demand stealth makes the class quite easy imho. Thieves are without a doubt the most powerful roaming class in wvw, and they do well in zergs if played correctly.

I think I already explained why that is and how little bearing it has on our effectiveness. Thieves are the undisputed kings of WvW roaming, by design I would think. That does not justify our glaring weaknesses in most other aspects of the game.

I don’t think being weak at another part of the game to be an issue. I am viable in all game modes, this is the bare minimum i think for judging if a class is objectively broken. I expect to be less useful in tpvp and zerging. If i want to perform optimally in a format i change classes to one better designed for that format, just as i change to my thief to scout and roam. Playing a class doesn’t mean you should have the capacity to be god at everything you do rather i think all i can ever expect, from any game that i play, is that i WILL BE ABLE TO PLAY any format i wish.

It’s got to the point where I hope they nerf absolutely every single aspect of the class in to complete and utter uselessness, making the entire class irrelevant, stupid, pointless, worthless and a waste of code (well, whatever parts of the class aren’t that already).

Then, we can get a total rework.

We’ll get nerfed to the point where when people lose to us, they know they got outplayed. I thought we were close a few months ago when an engi came here complaining and we sent him back to his own forum where he created a duplicate topic and he got chewed out. Apparently not though.

Pretty much the only classes I have the patience to listen to about their problems with thieves are non-terror/dhuumfire necros, D/D eles, and some rangers.

To answer the questions so this topic isn’t entirely derailed.

1. No, I’ll adapt. If thief becomes entirely unviable I would probably take a short hiatus though.

2. As a D/D thief they would probably have to nerf backstab damage and heartseeker damage for me to throw in the towel (I mean it’s a 2.4 and 2.0 multiplier respectively. Nerfing them would put them close to some auto attack values).

3. If it’s sPvP only it’s just another reason to not go there anymore. They need to make a hardcore sPvP mode already (like fps games have) where you bring your PvE build. Like WvW without the zerging.

4. Depends on the nerf/buff trade. They keep pushing the class towards mediocrity. I mean if it was something like venoms have fewer strikes but now they’re on your f-bar, that would be fine. As long as the thief maintains its uniqueness I guess it’s fine.

5. Further nerfs to base evasion (i.e. regular dodging). The previous nerf to vigorous recovery seemed like it was to flatten out the evasion capabilities of builds like double S/D. If specific builds have too much of something, address those, but ANet seems to specialize in collateral nerfing.

Maugetarr.6823:

To answer the questions so this topic isn’t entirely derailed.

I appreciate this. I was wondering what the thief player pop was thinking. While the sample size will obviously be small (and not necessarily indicative of the full pops sentiment) you can consider it me indulging in my own curiosity. So I do appreciate the responses to the questions.

TheGuy.3568:

1). If your current build were nerfed would you leave the class?

2). How much of a nerf would it have to be (scaling slightly reduce effectiveness to completely break the build)?

3).Would it matter if the nerf was Spvp only, or WvW only?

4). Would it matter if the nerf can with a buff?

5). What type of nerf would most likely get you to leave the class ie stealth, evasion, burst dps, sustained dps, condi damage, etc.?

In order, of course.
1.) I mainline P/P. Most people -even Thief players- would consider me rather “Nerfed by Default,” but the issues of that weapon-spread are their own conversation. If anything, I’ll stick with my current mindset (play less than I used to, haven’t even thought of buying Gems in months), as opposed to full-on quit.

2.) At this rate, further nerfs to evasion ability would be the sinker in my book. My main go-to build’s been stealthless for most of its existence, and relies on evasion/positioning.

3.) Hell, I’d PREFER that ANet started splitting skills between PvP and WvW/PvE.
MMO devs pull this crap a lot, it seems. The problem is that PvP modes in many games are running with a smaller number of players than “realm combat” or straight-up mob-killing. As such, it’s frigging inane to think that both sides can be balanced with the same technique.

4.) Depends on the nerf and the buff, tbh. Unfortunately, most of even the (arguably) needed nerfs in this game have been heavier than the buffs afterward. We should, by default, strive to keep stuff a bit more even.

5.) Like Mesmer (my other “main” class), you don’t “leave” Thief. It gets in your blood, man. And, those of us what know our class will still wreck some whinger in the end.