Guild Wars 2

Now that every other weapon set got shaved by a katana can we?

Make the evade last 1/2 sec like any other evade skill ever and reduce the aftercast.
Then maybe make it apply vulnerability for a few sec (3sec or so nothing big) on each strike to make the thing actually have synergy with the rest of the skills.

Or maybe buff the damage instead, get creative make each strike deal x% more dmg than the previous IF the previous strike hit (say give it 300 base dmg and every strike deals 50% more if the last on hit something).

Or just redesign it, having 1 condition damage skill on a set that is otherwise power based makes 0 sense not to mention that using d/d as a condi setup is subpar and stupid to play
-prepare to face the mighty Back Stabbing Black Jack The Blade and his condi d/d build, you better be ready for all the 3 spam and absolutely nothing else-

D/D thieves have been suggesting changes to Death Blossom for as long as I can remember. I think we’re all under the consensus that it needs a buff to make D/D a bit more viable.

+1
Just want to make this visible. Won’t do anything but hey is there room for 1 more on the ‘I am quitting this game’ train?

Leaving LDB so terribly underpowered is a riddle to me. It should deal like 300-350% more power damage, have 3/4 sec evade and deal 5 stacks of 5 sec bleeding. Then, somebody somewhere might consider it as an ability worth building around, despite having no other condi attacks on skillbar (aside of dagger auto-attack 3rd strike).

As long as you think of D/D as a power set, you’ll hate Death Blossom. Now, I’m by no means an expert, but I conceptualize the Thief weapon sets as follows:
S/D, S/P, D/P – power,
P/D – condi,
P/P, D/D – hybrid, both having reasonably good bleed application in an otherwise direct damage build.

Now, does that mean that all the weapon sets work? Not necessarily, but that’s a different discussion altogether. The point is, you can’t just buff Death Blossom. It applies some of the strongest bleed stacks in the game, and buffing its direct damage would necessitate nerfing or removing the bleeds, and thus completely changing the character of the skill, and hence the weapon set.

Death Blossom is my main skill and is on good place.

Thief dont need 5/5 power skill on one weapon set, 1,2,4,5 and BS is pure power skills, only 3 is hybrid with main bleeding DMG for condition DMG Thiefs

You want better AOE DMG like power thief right now ? Push swap button on other weapon set.

Anet logic: something is very weak so let’s make it op and include some hardcounter.

Thus by that logic following needs to happen to death blossom: spell now applies death of master venom.

Death of master venom: for 6 sec all pets stop buffing allies and attack their master instead of target (in case pet has attacks), after 6 sec all pets die (that includes turrets, clones, banners, spirits etc.).

I am sure it would introduce just as much fun and healthy gameplay to pvp like torment on AA, engi googles and co. do.

I would be fine with Anet just cleaning up the animation and maybe making the evade slightly longer. I try to use DB as an evade but I don’t know when the evade window is and the skill just seems so clunky.

D/D should be a pure dps set, you could go a long way to fixing it by:

1. up the evade frames to 1/2 second on death blossom, remove the bleeds and increase the damage it does

2. dancing dagger should stun (1/4s) the first opponent when hit from the side/behind, increase the damage by 5% and initiative cost to 4.

3. cloak and dagger increase the damage by 10%

I have always disagreed with removing condi from D/D. Not only is it unnecessary, but it would leave thieves without any melee condition ability at all. Having it be hybridized allows it to be more versatile, which I prefer.

All that DB needs is to have a more reliable evade. No other changes are needed.

I actually think the bigger problem with D/D is that Poison is somewhat underpowered as a condition. It doesn’t scale enough with Condition damage.

Pixels.6532:

2. dancing dagger should stun (1/4s) the first opponent when hit from the side/behind, increase the damage by 5% and initiative cost to 4.

Disagree. Dancing Dagger is used to break aegis and blinds. If anything, I’d prefer it to do less damage, cost 1 less initiative, and travel faster (or at least hit more reliably). Make it a projectile like Trickshot that won’t get “obstructed” by a slight incline in terrain.

Einlanzer.1627:

I actually think the bigger problem with D/D is that Poison is somewhat underpowered as a condition. It doesn’t scale enough with Condition damage.

Poison is extremely powerful as a condition. It’s the only way you’ll kill a lot of bunker builds.

mango.9267:

Pixels.6532:

2. dancing dagger should stun (1/4s) the first opponent when hit from the side/behind, increase the damage by 5% and initiative cost to 4.

Disagree. Dancing Dagger is used to break aegis and blinds. If anything, I’d prefer it to do less damage, cost 1 less initiative, and travel faster (or at least hit more reliably). Make it a projectile like Trickshot that won’t get “obstructed” by a slight incline in terrain.

Einlanzer.1627:

I actually think the bigger problem with D/D is that Poison is somewhat underpowered as a condition. It doesn’t scale enough with Condition damage.

Poison is extremely powerful as a condition. It’s the only way you’ll kill a lot of bunker builds.

Despite my dubious wording, my point wasn’t that Posion sucked, it was that Poison doesn’t benefit enough from building around conditions.

Azawrath.7304:

I would be fine with Anet just cleaning up the animation and maybe making the evade slightly longer.

I remember reading somewhere that the skill used to have a 1/2 second evade, which got nerfed when people complained about the evade spam. But yeah, a more reliable or slightly longer evade is just about the only change I would like to see on that skill.

Einlanzer.1627:

Despite my dubious wording, my point wasn’t that Posion sucked, it was that Poison doesn’t benefit enough from building around conditions.

True, but it’s not meant to be. The main point of Poison is to reduce healing. The damage is kinda just a bonus.

I think the best idea I saw for it was a while ago where someone suggested making it similar to warrior’s GS whirlwind attack. That way it could offer some great evasion, some needed mobility, and increasr the skill cap as it would be a skill shot rather than locking you into an animation that gets you stunned/killed. If it had the evasiveness of WW, I dont think the damage even needs a buff, it would just be a useful utility skill at that point.

(Sorry I can’t remember who originally suggested making it into WW)

Gudy.3607:

As long as you think of D/D as a power set, you’ll hate Death Blossom. Now, I’m by no means an expert, but I conceptualize the Thief weapon sets as follows:
S/D, S/P, D/P – power,
P/D – condi,
P/P, D/D – hybrid, both having reasonably good bleed application in an otherwise direct damage build.

Now, does that mean that all the weapon sets work? Not necessarily, but that’s a different discussion altogether. The point is, you can’t just buff Death Blossom. It applies some of the strongest bleed stacks in the game, and buffing its direct damage would necessitate nerfing or removing the bleeds, and thus completely changing the character of the skill, and hence the weapon set.

You get it.

Evilek.5690:

Death Blossom is my main skill and is on good place.

Thief dont need 5/5 power skill on one weapon set, 1,2,4,5 and BS is pure power skills, only 3 is hybrid with main bleeding DMG for condition DMG Thiefs

You want better AOE DMG like power thief right now ? Push swap button on other weapon set.

As do you.

D/D is NOT a power set people, it is A HYBRID. Unless of course you’re saying S/P, D/P, and S/D are NOT power weapon sets, at which point you’re a fool. That’s half of our weapon sets, we do not need any more power sets.

d/d is crap for a hybrid build. If you go hybrid you get meh backstabs, meh aa, and meh cnd. In exchange you get meh bleed damage from db as well as a kitten evade and kitten damage. Oh, and #4 is still next to useless.

If you go power, at least bs and cnd are good even if #3 is useless and #4 marginally less so.

Seeing as how ANET is trying to destroy everything that ever made the thief good. I would like to say that I wish they would give thieves better utility since we can’t seem to keep up with their favorite classes.

The only change that I want to see with death blossom is to remove it from D/D.

Death blossom does not need some damage boost or to substitute the bleeds for anything else. It just needs to turn to a skill shot like whirlwind attack and be a full evade. That way it works better on positioning and works reliably as a defense. D/D already has the damage, it just needs QoL improvements towards death blossom and dancing dagger.

What’s the point of DB if going hybrid gimps the rest of the set? >.>

You can herald D/D as a hybrid set as long as you want, but it still doesn’t work. DB needs a colossal boost to functionality and reliability in order to be taken seriously as a hybrid. I’ve only ever seen the condition side of D/D being used by investing COMPLETELY in to it with no power for killing groups in PvE. If you try using it anywhere else you’ll be laughed out of the map.

Honestly, half of our sets don’t have to be hybrid. P/D suits a condition role just fine. D/D is clearly not working and P/P is still massively broken and being buffed in the wrong places. Just get rid of hybridisation and give the sets fully unified roles.

I am biased because I enjoy #3 evades from sword, and I wish that LDB had similar evade frames. As it stands, LDB, along with the “new” Shortbow Disabling Shot (even though 1/2 second evade frame is still decent) both lock you in to an animation that makes you vulnerable (unable to dodge, or use skills) longer than they evade!

I actually like(d) the idea of d/d being hybrid back at release. It had poison on AA, and aoe bleed on both #3 and #4. Then they removed it from #4, and nerfed #3.

I think, since they removed bleed from Dancing Dagger, they should either remove it from LDB and buff the skill in some way, or return bleed to DD so the set could be used more effectively in a hybrid build.

Dagger #4 has never had bleed…

It used to do twice as much damage and last for 5 seconds base for 4 initiative, but never did it bleed. Hell, in the betas d#1 didn’t have poison, it had vulnerability. Death blossom has always been an outlier. It was at least semi useful when it had an instant 3/4 sec evade, but people who built around spamming #3 got that nerfed.

Dang did it not? I’m batting 100 on my misinformation. Sorry.

It’s funny the reality we build in our minds sometime. I thought the 50% damage nerf to DD also included a removal of bleed. But I was wrong.

Having 1 condition based skill among 3 DPS based skills (and 1 utility) does not a hybrid make.

A true hybrid would have the potential to do respectable power/crit based damage and condition damage on most (if not all) of the DPS skills. You could balance around stats and base condition duration such that skills did appropriate damage no matter how you specced.

High power/crit builds with low condi damage would see DD slightly less than other weaponsets, made up for by the conditions. High condi builds would see the inverse. Hybrid stat setups would see a good mix of both.

As it stands, D/D is a power/crit setup with 1 weird kittenty condi ability smack dab in the middle of it. Try running celestial D/D and P/P or D/D and Shbow with Strength runes and might stacking and see how it goes (I’ll give you a hint, poorly).

No matter how badly you want it to be a hybrid set, it just isnt.

D/D works fine as a hybrid set, at least in PvE. It sacrifices some DPS for versatility. That’s how it’s supposed to work. The problem with DB is that it’s mostly useless in a Power set due to the crappy evade. Improve the evade, it stops being useless.

I frankly don’t want D/D to be pure power. It doesn’t need to be. It already works fine as a Power set and S/x is also a power set.

it should just add vulnerability as well as bleed. That way it synergises with Cloak n Dagger and back stab.

Runewolf.8456:

it should just add vulnerability as well as bleed. That way it synergises with Cloak n Dagger and back stab.

That won’t fix the clunkiness of the forced movement and the evade frames though, although it would be a start into pushing it into more of a utility role.

Einlanzer.1627:

D/D works fine as a hybrid set, at least in PvE. It sacrifices some DPS for versatility. That’s how it’s supposed to work. The problem with DB is that it’s mostly useless in a Power set due to the crappy evade. Improve the evade, it stops being useless.

I frankly don’t want D/D to be pure power. It doesn’t need to be. It already works fine as a Power set and S/x is also a power set.

Except at this point, hybrid sets are pretty much proven to not work. 2 years post release with no changes to fundamental mechanics, no one even uses a hybrid set in solos. If there was some way to make it work, we would’ve made it work by now.

The way I see it, the problem isnt in the evade itself. .25 is stupidly low but it is manageable.

What’s not managable is the forced movement with an aftercast (essentially a self-CC) and that the evade happens in the middle of the cast as opposed to the start like every other evade skill in the game. It’s impossible to use it as an evade seriously unless you see a very slow attack coming a mile away.

D/D mostly struggles with having 0 reliable defensive options; all the other melee weapon sets either have access to the blind field (from /P) or a big evade frame on the dual. Extending the evade to be on par with others (say half a second evade, starting from the beginning of the animation) is exactly what the set needs.

They’d also need to strip some damage off the skill with the extended frame, which is perfectly fine with me. It’s the combination of kinda but not really good enough damage plus a really unreliable evasion that keeps it from having clear use cases and leaves it weak.

It doesn’t need more power scaling. D/D stab already has so much damage potential and burst potential. I’d like to keep the skill similar to what it is in that it’s a nice condition applier for very low health targets that use say, endure pain. Any more condition scaling would also just break the skill as then we’d just see condi dire thief evading and spamming 3 for very high bleeding damage and immunity frames at the same time. If anything, it might be smarter to move it to shorter duration bleeds/fewer stacks and apply say, a little bit of vuln.

I’d honestly just like to see a reduced aftercast/increased evade frame duration like SB3. As it stands, the skill is really finicky to use as a dodge but really has no place being anything but.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Einlanzer.1627:

D/D works fine as a hybrid set, at least in PvE. It sacrifices some DPS for versatility. That’s how it’s supposed to work. The problem with DB is that it’s mostly useless in a Power set due to the crappy evade. Improve the evade, it stops being useless.

I frankly don’t want D/D to be pure power. It doesn’t need to be. It already works fine as a Power set and S/x is also a power set.

Except at this point, hybrid sets are pretty much proven to not work. 2 years post release with no changes to fundamental mechanics, no one even uses a hybrid set in solos. If there was some way to make it work, we would’ve made it work by now.

The way I see it, the problem isnt in the evade itself. .25 is stupidly low but it is manageable.

What’s not managable is the forced movement with an aftercast (essentially a self-CC) and that the evade happens in the middle of the cast as opposed to the start like every other evade skill in the game. It’s impossible to use it as an evade seriously unless you see a very slow attack coming a mile away.

Maybe L2P D/D hybrit build https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liTwueajvMU , i use condy/power D/D +- 1.5 years and work all time.

^ I should’ve made it clear I was talking about PvE, in reponse to his comment. I don’t know how well it works in PvP because I don’t play a thief in PvP, but if you’re gonna have fixed weapon skills and also have a limited bar, you can’t have PvP-only skills on a bar.

@ comments regarding dancing dagger: I think having a 1/4 stun would way too overpowered, because that essentially in PvE makes it just Headshot with better damage and lower cost, as it isn’t hard to flank in PvE.

I think a good function it could have is to have an optional (ie, you can turn it off) function of turning into a skill that pulls you to your first target, much like ele’s magnetic grasp.

Evilek.5690:

Maybe L2P D/D hybrit build https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liTwueajvMU , i use condy/power D/D +- 1.5 years and work all time.

But the thing is you are not playing a real hybrid, you have some power sure but all you are actually doing is spamming db and occasionally using hs to close the gap. Just going full dire gear would get you better results, using p/d would get you better results and in that set you actively use more than 1 skill in combat.

And that is the real issue i made this post over, d/d as a set is not functional as hybrid, it is just mindless 3 spam.
I just want a net to buff d/d as a hybrid/condi set to make it not a kitten version of p/d, or remake the skill to compliment the d/d power setup – like alot of people said just increasing the evade time and reducing the aftercast would do it.

The vid you posted is fun to watch but i am gona quote myself:

prepare to face the mighty Back Stabbing Black Jack The Blade and his condi d/d build, you better be ready for all the 3 spam

The reason why at least in PvE it doesn’t work is because unlike other classes every single skill in the thief’s bar is in direct competition with each other because there’s no cooldowns to block skills out of usage and they all pull from the same resource pool.

In the case of a hybrid, CnD+backstab is directly competing against DB, because they’re both used for damage instead of utility. You can alternate between them in the 3 second reveal but again, uses the same resource pool, so that’s way too initiative hungry to sustain.

So you’ll use whatever skill that gives you more DPS out of your initiative.

Since this competition only really exists above 50% HP due to Heartseeker, there’s not much of an argument over long term vs short term DPS. So in whatever build you make, you’ll only use one of CnD or DB, and not both, hence why its always either spam DB or don’t use it at all.

Xae Isareth.1364:

The reason why at least in PvE it doesn’t work is because unlike other classes every single skill in the thief’s bar is in direct competition with each other because there’s no cooldowns to block skills out of usage and they all pull from the same resource pool.

In the case of a hybrid, CnD+backstab is directly competing against DB, because they’re both used for damage instead of utility. You can alternate between them in the 3 second reveal but again, uses the same resource pool, so that’s way too initiative hungry to sustain.

So you’ll use whatever skill that gives you more DPS out of your initiative.

Since this competition only really exists above 50% HP due to Heartseeker, there’s not much of an argument over long term vs short term DPS. So in whatever build you make, you’ll only use one of CnD or DB, and not both, hence why its always either spam DB or don’t use it at all.

D/D is best setup for hybrid.

1) you use DB on stack bleed/evade and direct DMG
2) Target has 25x stack bleed ? OK now you use AA on poison and direct DMG.
3) Target <25% HP Use HS.

And dont miss combo field.

Fire field
1) HS make Fire Shield (might stack + burning)
2) DB burn all enemy
3) DD same like DB

And other combo fields with cool stuffs

I want only three change on this weapons set -> Torrment on DD,Bleeding on Back stab and better base DMG or coefficient on DB

Evilek.5690:

Xae Isareth.1364:

The reason why at least in PvE it doesn’t work is because unlike other classes every single skill in the thief’s bar is in direct competition with each other because there’s no cooldowns to block skills out of usage and they all pull from the same resource pool.

In the case of a hybrid, CnD+backstab is directly competing against DB, because they’re both used for damage instead of utility. You can alternate between them in the 3 second reveal but again, uses the same resource pool, so that’s way too initiative hungry to sustain.

So you’ll use whatever skill that gives you more DPS out of your initiative.

Since this competition only really exists above 50% HP due to Heartseeker, there’s not much of an argument over long term vs short term DPS. So in whatever build you make, you’ll only use one of CnD or DB, and not both, hence why its always either spam DB or don’t use it at all.

D/D is best setup for hybrid.

1) you use DB on stack bleed/evade and direct DMG
2) Target has 25x stack bleed ? OK now you use AA on poison and direct DMG.
3) Target <25% HP Use HS.

And dont miss combo field.

Fire field
1) HS make Fire Shield (might stack + burning)
2) DB burn all enemy
3) DD same like DB

And other combo fields with cool stuffs

I want only three change on this weapons set -> Torrment on DD,Bleeding on Back stab and better base DMG or coefficient on DB

This is exactly what I’ve talking about when I said it doesn’t work. All you’re doing is basically spamming DB until 25% HP.

Evilek.5690:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Einlanzer.1627:

D/D works fine as a hybrid set, at least in PvE. It sacrifices some DPS for versatility. That’s how it’s supposed to work. The problem with DB is that it’s mostly useless in a Power set due to the crappy evade. Improve the evade, it stops being useless.

I frankly don’t want D/D to be pure power. It doesn’t need to be. It already works fine as a Power set and S/x is also a power set.

Except at this point, hybrid sets are pretty much proven to not work. 2 years post release with no changes to fundamental mechanics, no one even uses a hybrid set in solos. If there was some way to make it work, we would’ve made it work by now.

The way I see it, the problem isnt in the evade itself. .25 is stupidly low but it is manageable.

What’s not managable is the forced movement with an aftercast (essentially a self-CC) and that the evade happens in the middle of the cast as opposed to the start like every other evade skill in the game. It’s impossible to use it as an evade seriously unless you see a very slow attack coming a mile away.

Maybe L2P D/D hybrit build https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liTwueajvMU , i use condy/power D/D +- 1.5 years and work all time.

I only watched the first 4 minutes (sorry, watching WvW combat is painful for me), but occasionally using HS as something other than a gap closer and the even more occasional backstab does not a hybrid make. 80% of your initiative was dedicated to Death blossom, which you had to spam because it’s your only damaging condition move. This video is a perfect example of exactly how poor a “hybrid set” D/D makes. The fact that you believed it was a great example of the exact opposite is worrying.

Did Anet ever talk about how they intended this thing to work?

Xae Isareth.1364:

Did Anet ever talk about how they intended this thing to work?

They try to avoid talking about thief at all, I mean someone gave carl the card suggesting venoms were for a condition build and several of the changes were functionality changes followed by a confusing look.

Took 2 years for them to make venomous aura use the thief’s own stats :/

NinjaEd.3946:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Did Anet ever talk about how they intended this thing to work?

They try to avoid talking about thief at all, I mean someone gave carl the card suggesting venoms were for a condition build and several of the changes were functionality changes followed by a confusing look.

Took 2 years for them to make venomous aura use the thief’s own stats :/

This is why I think they should just ask the top thieves of PvE, WvW and sPvP to give them advice on what to do.

Those guys spent collectively hundreds of hours turning over ever rock, I doubt the devs know more about the class than those guys.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Evilek.5690:

Xae Isareth.1364:

The reason why at least in PvE it doesn’t work is because unlike other classes every single skill in the thief’s bar is in direct competition with each other because there’s no cooldowns to block skills out of usage and they all pull from the same resource pool.

In the case of a hybrid, CnD+backstab is directly competing against DB, because they’re both used for damage instead of utility. You can alternate between them in the 3 second reveal but again, uses the same resource pool, so that’s way too initiative hungry to sustain.

So you’ll use whatever skill that gives you more DPS out of your initiative.

Since this competition only really exists above 50% HP due to Heartseeker, there’s not much of an argument over long term vs short term DPS. So in whatever build you make, you’ll only use one of CnD or DB, and not both, hence why its always either spam DB or don’t use it at all.

D/D is best setup for hybrid.

1) you use DB on stack bleed/evade and direct DMG
2) Target has 25x stack bleed ? OK now you use AA on poison and direct DMG.
3) Target <25% HP Use HS.

And dont miss combo field.

Fire field
1) HS make Fire Shield (might stack + burning)
2) DB burn all enemy
3) DD same like DB

And other combo fields with cool stuffs

I want only three change on this weapons set -> Torrment on DD,Bleeding on Back stab and better base DMG or coefficient on DB

This is exactly what I’ve talking about when I said it doesn’t work. All you’re doing is basically spamming DB until 25% HP.

First time this is Thief, class without CD on skills. Thief use skills as needed.

Power D/D has main benefit for CaD,BS and HS, rarely use DB on evade or aoe heal with Signet of Malice and DD on slow target.

Condit D/D has main benefit for DB on stack bleed,evade and healing with Signet of Malice. Using HS on fire field (stack might and burning) or on <25% life target. DD using on slow target or on combo field (fire on burning or dark on beast healing). Rarely use CaD and BS.

Power/Condi D/D benefits from all these skills

Evilek.5690:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Evilek.5690:

Xae Isareth.1364:

The reason why at least in PvE it doesn’t work is because unlike other classes every single skill in the thief’s bar is in direct competition with each other because there’s no cooldowns to block skills out of usage and they all pull from the same resource pool.

In the case of a hybrid, CnD+backstab is directly competing against DB, because they’re both used for damage instead of utility. You can alternate between them in the 3 second reveal but again, uses the same resource pool, so that’s way too initiative hungry to sustain.

So you’ll use whatever skill that gives you more DPS out of your initiative.

Since this competition only really exists above 50% HP due to Heartseeker, there’s not much of an argument over long term vs short term DPS. So in whatever build you make, you’ll only use one of CnD or DB, and not both, hence why its always either spam DB or don’t use it at all.

D/D is best setup for hybrid.

1) you use DB on stack bleed/evade and direct DMG
2) Target has 25x stack bleed ? OK now you use AA on poison and direct DMG.
3) Target <25% HP Use HS.

And dont miss combo field.

Fire field
1) HS make Fire Shield (might stack + burning)
2) DB burn all enemy
3) DD same like DB

And other combo fields with cool stuffs

I want only three change on this weapons set -> Torrment on DD,Bleeding on Back stab and better base DMG or coefficient on DB

This is exactly what I’ve talking about when I said it doesn’t work. All you’re doing is basically spamming DB until 25% HP.

First time this is Thief, class without CD on skills. Thief use skills as needed.

Power D/D has main benefit for CaD,BS and HS, rarely use DB on evade or aoe heal with Signet of Malice and DD on slow target.

Condit D/D has main benefit for DB on stack bleed,evade and healing with Signet of Malice. Using HS on fire field (stack might and burning) or on <25% life target. DD using on slow target or on combo field (fire on burning or dark on beast healing). Rarely use CaD and BS.

Power/Condi D/D benefits from all these skills

How does power/condi d/d benefit from CnD? If CnD works out to be better DPS than DB, you use CnD and never use DB, and if it’s the other way around, you never use CnD.

D/D is like 2 completely separate weapon sets stuffed into one, without ant thought of how they would work together.

Xae Isareth.1364:

NinjaEd.3946:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Did Anet ever talk about how they intended this thing to work?

They try to avoid talking about thief at all, I mean someone gave carl the card suggesting venoms were for a condition build and several of the changes were functionality changes followed by a confusing look.

Took 2 years for them to make venomous aura use the thief’s own stats :/

This is why I think they should just ask the top thieves of PvE, WvW and sPvP to give them advice on what to do.

Those guys spent collectively hundreds of hours turning over ever rock, I doubt the devs know more about the class than those guys.

Exactly, the top thieves can only give advice, however anet wont take it seriously. We’ve spent how long explaining that last refuge is harmful AND impossible to correct with how stealth works? We’ve spent every waking day mocking their addition of assassin’s equilibrium and they believe it’s a number issue so they add .5 seconds (technically .65 from 30% boon duration). They keep upping initiative costs of skills rather than balance their effects only making them less attractive. Improvisation is still nonsense, so many useless traits and utilities, sb received all but 1 nerf to infiltrator’s arrow which I imagine won’t be long, p/p is still a 3 spam, venoms are too heavy of an investment, etc. Basically, only person who shows a presence in this forum is a moderator who isn’t even posting anymore when (s)he shuts a thread down. It’s down right sad.

All top thieves could do is show Anet the perspective of thief that they see, similar to the ranger CDI it will basically be for show and ultimately ignored. They just aren’t taking this game seriously, as if they’ve moved to something else or rack up so much income from the gem store that they don’t see a reason to fix things appropriately.

I’m not usually prone to throwing out glib statements like ’it’s fine’ to try and look cool… but I use DB relentlessly and think it’s perfect. It shouldn’t be put into a place where it is so good everyone simply switches to it because it outshines everything else. It should be good in some situations and bad in others and should be a tough choice over other decent skills.

The 3 key on my keyboard collects dust when I’m using D/D. I don’t think it’s viable for condition or power builds (having played both) and I can’t see the point of going hybrid to utilize this skill. The dual skills on the other weapon sets are just so much better than DB and fit those sets. It DOES need a rework.

Faeyd.5094:

I’m not usually prone to throwing out glib statements like ’it’s fine’ to try and look cool… but I use DB relentlessly and think it’s perfect. It shouldn’t be put into a place where it is so good everyone simply switches to it because it outshines everything else. It should be good in some situations and bad in others and should be a tough choice over other decent skills.

I don’t think everyone wants DB to become the “go-to”, its not a case of “its good in some places and bad in others”, its more like “it’s clunky”. You can’t work with the skill because of the evade frame and not being a skill shot that you can control.

Some people are thinking of this skil in the wrong light by suggesting it should do strict direct damage and apply vulnerability or something. DB has its place in the d/d kit, its just too unreliable to use. We already have our hard hitters, gap closers, stealth access, and poison/bleed all in D/D. Its a QoL fix that is needed so that can be timed.

-Fix the evade frame on DB so it lasts the full duration of the dancing effect and keep a small after cast (<0.25 seconds) so that it cannot be spammed effectively and abused.

-Change DB to a skill shot and increase its distance slightly(~400). This adds more strategic play to the positioning aspect of the evade and also gives more control in the event you are crippled or chilled and can’t connect with a circling enemy or want to create a combo effect without having to drop target.

-Change dancing dagger to something other than what it is. It’s nice as a projectile finisher but there is no damage and HS costs the same initiative, is a better gap closer, hits (more) reliably, and has far better damage, and is a leap finisher which is far greater than projectiles.

That would complete the D/D kit so each skill has its purpose without it being a 1 trick pony.

It’s fantastic as a the first wave bleed application in 1vX. With P/D as second set and full dire with cover condis and Krait (which also turns dancing daggers into serious AE damage) this is a very powerful camp trasher and 1vX iWin. Also, heretically, I change very little in sPvP (Carrion amo) and comfortably fight all the class/spec combos thieves currently hate. It’s amazing vs turrets, PUs, RFs, zoos, hambows, etc. D/D #1 is for mini-cleave poison, #2 is mobility, #4 is CC and 5 is stealth… I get it sticks out as completely pointless in a power set… but it’s amazing as the centre ability in a condi D/D set and far more fun to play than P/D (although it’s nice on weapon swap).

All of this a little too heretical for pen and paper internet e-fights where combat takes place on skills builder and is toted as law in thread responses. However, toning down it’s condi effectiveness or evade capability to try and ‘powerize’ it would just make another fringe set usage (D/D condi) extinct.

foste.3098:

Now that every other weapon set got shaved by a katana can we?

Make the evade last 1/2 sec like any other evade skill ever and reduce the aftercast.
Then maybe make it apply vulnerability for a few sec (3sec or so nothing big) on each strike to make the thing actually have synergy with the rest of the skills.

Or maybe buff the damage instead, get creative make each strike deal x% more dmg than the previous IF the previous strike hit (say give it 300 base dmg and every strike deals 50% more if the last on hit something).

Or just redesign it, having 1 condition damage skill on a set that is otherwise power based makes 0 sense not to mention that using d/d as a condi setup is subpar and stupid to play
-prepare to face the mighty Back Stabbing Black Jack The Blade and his condi d/d build, you better be ready for all the 3 spam and absolutely nothing else-

Shaved by a katana more like by a death star ray:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=BE&v=Fpy2ZBUo7yI

Faeyd.5094:

It’s fantastic as a the first wave bleed application in 1vX. With P/D as second set and full dire with cover condis and Krait (which also turns dancing daggers into serious AE damage) this is a very powerful camp trasher and 1vX iWin.

It’s not viable to take D/D to spam 3 only to switch to P/D. SB gives you range, 2 condition AOE skills, evade and teleport…. I also think you can stack bleeds faster and in a larger area with SB…