(edited by Ludus Rex.1562)
Can we have a civilized discussion on P/P?
A lot of stuff they could play with but what Einlizers(?) been suggesting would be the easiest.
I agree that it would be the easiest but it doesn’t solve the problem, his suggestion is just a “band-aid” solution.
P/P and D/D needs surgery, not bandage.
It’s not really a bandaid.
Think an ADC in a moba, or well most “ranger” archetypes (like even our rangers shortbow) in typical mmos, or even FPS games with abilities where your “auto-attack” is the greatest long-term source of damage. It’s putting it into that sphere.
The other option is to keep the auto attack meagre to put emphasis on the abilities but at the moment the abilities I would say still don’t flow that well to make it meet that goal and it’s hard to do it right given we use a global resource.
Ergo ~ Increase the auto-attack to go towards a certain design (which is valid and not a bandaid), or increase other abilities towards another (which is also valid but would quite likely take longer).I think either way they’d have to look at a couple skills again even if they did increase the auto-attack but P/P would feel the improvement faster if they started there.
Like I’ve already mentioned, the problem with Vital Shot is that this skill is shared between 2 weapon sets. Any changes to this skill to buff P/P will also buff P/D. Now that both weapon set has a decent auto-attack, why would any one pick P/P over P/D? Can you see? That’s the same situation we are in today, thus this is a “band-aid” solution.
Anet needs to separate P/P from P/D, D/P and S/P and the only way to do that is to give P/P its own 5 skill weapon set (same goes with D/D).
Take Body Shot for instance. The immobilize is useful for P/P, but P/D now have 2 movement impairment ability — can’t you see the problem there? It just made P/D much more better than P/P, so why use P/P?
Why would they do this for P/P and P/D when it would break the conventions used by every other weapon in the game? The change to Body Shot was bad and shortsighted, but that has nothing to do with Vital Shot because it’s pure DPS and the only free skill either has. I still don’t get what you’re arguing exactly. There is no reason why they need to make P/P only direct damage and P/P only condition damage. There is also no reason that buffing Vital Shot would make people stop using P/D.
It would literally change nothing about the dynamics in these sets other than improving their sustained damage by reducing the dependence on Stealth for P/D and Initiative for P/P. P/P still has a stronger emphasis on burst/crit and P/D has a stronger emphasis on condi, so people are likely to gravitate to whichever one their build best supports, which could be either.
So a major problem that I see is that the auto attack for power based Thieves really stinks. But we can’t change it, because then we’re screwing over P/D thieves and removing that entire line of condition based build. It’s pretty pointless to remove one viable play type to add one other. You’re still going to end up with unhappy people.
Proposed Solution: We currently have a trait that increases pistol damage by what, 10%? That’s good for Unload builds specifically, but what if we changed that trait to instead remove the bleed component from Vital Shot and Sneak Attack and increase their damage. Functionally, having this trait equipped would change your #1 slot and your stealth #1 slot to alternate attacks that have no bleed and much higher base damage.
For the sake of not cheating Thieves out of a trait, let’s say that we figure out what the fair baseline damage should be for a ranged physical attack with the cast time of Vital Shot and then we add 10% to that (effectively maintaining the 10% damage to pistols trait). Same thing for Sneak Attack. What’s the fair baseline damage for a ranged alpha strike, then add 10%.
Using this method, Unload suffers by 10%, but P/P Thieves infinitely less reliant on it. Then, since they aren’t forced to spam it constantly, I saw we go in the other direction and INCREASE the cost of Unload to 6 Initiative, and then give it a bit of damage bump (or make it channel faster) so it can be a true burst ability.
It sounds complicated, but in reality it’s just 1 trait which now modifies 2 attacks to new attacks, or just changes their attributes and values. Heck, we already do this with bundles. I know the programmers could nail this one pretty quick if they tried.
You have now SOLVED P/P Thieves. P/D Thieves can still make condition builds if they so choose, and P/P Thieves can have a dedicated set that focuses on Power/Crit the way they’ve always wanted. It’s entirely optional. Just one trait that streamlines the whole thing, offering playstyle that’s been long sought after.
No, again, all that would do would be make that trait mandatory for P/P to function normally. Fixing skill problems through trait enhancements is an awful design paradigm that they’ve already done too much of (the initial buff to Pistol Mastery is a perfect example because it buffed Unload more than Vital Shot when the opposite was needed).
Vital Shot is almost perfectly split between direct and condition damage and is kind of weak for both, so I don’t see how any change other than buffing it is necessary or even better. It’s not necessary in the slightest that either P/P or P/D be 100% focused on either direct or condition damage, they instead should both be functional with both. Condi specialists are still likely to go P/D and burst will go for P/P, but they both benefit to some extent from both. That’s how it should be.
A lot of stuff they could play with but what Einlizers(?) been suggesting would be the easiest.
I agree that it would be the easiest but it doesn’t solve the problem, his suggestion is just a “band-aid” solution.
P/P and D/D needs surgery, not bandage.
It’s not really a bandaid.
Think an ADC in a moba, or well most “ranger” archetypes (like even our rangers shortbow) in typical mmos, or even FPS games with abilities where your “auto-attack” is the greatest long-term source of damage. It’s putting it into that sphere.
The other option is to keep the auto attack meagre to put emphasis on the abilities but at the moment the abilities I would say still don’t flow that well to make it meet that goal and it’s hard to do it right given we use a global resource.
Ergo ~ Increase the auto-attack to go towards a certain design (which is valid and not a bandaid), or increase other abilities towards another (which is also valid but would quite likely take longer).I think either way they’d have to look at a couple skills again even if they did increase the auto-attack but P/P would feel the improvement faster if they started there.
Like I’ve already mentioned, the problem with Vital Shot is that this skill is shared between 2 weapon sets. Any changes to this skill to buff P/P will also buff P/D. Now that both weapon set has a decent auto-attack, why would any one pick P/P over P/D? Can you see? That’s the same situation we are in today, thus this is a “band-aid” solution.
Anet needs to separate P/P from P/D, D/P and S/P and the only way to do that is to give P/P its own 5 skill weapon set (same goes with D/D).
Take Body Shot for instance. The immobilize is useful for P/P, but P/D now have 2 movement impairment ability — can’t you see the problem there? It just made P/D much more better than P/P, so why use P/P?
Why would they do this for P/P and P/D when it would break the conventions used by every other weapon in the game? The change to Body Shot was bad and shortsighted, but that has nothing to do with Vital Shot because it’s pure DPS and the only free skill either has. I still don’t get what you’re arguing exactly. There is no reason why they need to make P/P only direct damage and P/P only condition damage. There is also no reason that buffing Vital Shot would make people stop using P/D.
That’s not what I said, in fact, it’s the other way around. If buffing Vital Shot was meant to improve P/P set, why would anyone use P/P if Vital Shot also improved P/D?
Just as my Body Shot example. It did helped P/P to keep distance but subsequently given P/D two skills that impairs movement. The same thing will happen to Vital Shot.
Improving Vital Shot is not enough reason to pick P/P over P/D. That’s my point.
Even with the improvement of Vital Shot, we will still be in the same situation we are in today. P/P still sucks because P/P doesn’t benefit from condition damage, it benefits from non-damage conditions (i.e. Vulnerability, Chill).
It would literally change nothing about the dynamics in these sets other than improving their sustained damage by reducing the dependence on Stealth for P/D and Initiative for P/P. P/P still has a stronger emphasis on burst/crit and P/D has a stronger emphasis on condi, so people are likely to gravitate to whichever one their build best supports, which could be either.
If you really believe that P/P “has a stronger emphasis on burst/crit”, then why are you against on giving P/P a different auto-attack skill that supports burst/crit?
Also with both weapon set sharing the same skill, when one set is nerfed, the other set is too, eventhough only one of the set really deserves it.
http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning…there was Tarnished Coast…
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.
No, again, all that would do would be make that trait mandatory for P/P to function normally. Fixing skill problems through trait enhancements is an awful design paradigm that they’ve already done too much of (the initial buff to Pistol Mastery is a perfect example because it buffed Unload more than Vital Shot when the opposite was needed).
Vital Shot is almost perfectly split between direct and condition damage and is kind of weak for both, so I don’t see how any change other than buffing it is necessary or even better. It’s not necessary in the slightest that either P/P or P/D be 100% focused on either direct or condition damage, they instead should both be functional with both. Condi specialists are still likely to go P/D and burst will go for P/P, but they both benefit to some extent from both. That’s how it should be.
I disagree. ANY bleed left on Sneak Attack and Vital Shot has to be accounted for in the baseline strength of the ability, which effects how it scales with power and crit stats. Whatever portion is left as a bleed, will not scale appropriately.
Across all classes, there’s almost nothing that has regular damage + condition damage which can be optimized for Power/Crit heavy builds. It’s always suboptimal. In sPvP, suboptimal is another term for lunch meat. This is why you don’t see Scepter Necros or Pistol Engis going heavy Power/Crit.
I do like Ichishi’s idea that the +10% damage to pistols trait can be the trait that alters the baseline damage of Vital Shot and Sneak Attack, but SPECIFICALLY while dual wielding pistols.
One important thing about sPvP is that it’s important strategically to know what your opponents weapons are capable of. Your opponent seeing that you’re P/P and thus getting the signal that you’re probably Power/Crit seems only fair, as opposed to seeing you with Pistol/Dagger and knowing that your traits can’t be modified in that way and you probably have condition damage.
Regarding your argument that your playstyle shouldn’t hinge on having to take a trait, I call “Poppykitten”. That’s silly. Ask Flamethrower Engineers if they consider Juggernaut optional. Or ask bleed Warriors if they feel “pigeon holed” into taking Deep Cuts. Having a trait at adept level (where Pistol Mastery is now) and requiring a 10 point investment still leaves you enough to go up any 2 trees. Heck, entire Engineer weapon sets require sacrificing a whole Utility Slot, which is more costly than 10 points.
So, respectfully, I think that you’re way off base with simply buffing both aspects of Vital Shot and expecting it to work out while leaving Sneak Attack unchanged, as well as your stance that an easily accessible trait shouldn’t be necessary for a specific playstyle.
Improving Vital Shot is not enough reason to pick P/P over P/D. That’s my point.
Just to provide some focus, this is the main point I disagree with. Many people will run with P/P just because they aesthetically like it, but regardless of that, P/P still trades off some of the condi emphasis of P/D for better burst. A lot of folks like to be able to burst, and P/P will continue doing it better than P/D regardless of any buffs that are made to Vital Shot. Buffing Vital Shot would only allow you to have better sustained DPS when you want or need to avoid dumping all of your Initiative into Unload.
I disagree. ANY bleed left on Sneak Attack and Vital Shot has to be accounted for in the baseline strength of the ability, which effects how it scales with power and crit stats. Whatever portion is left as a bleed, will not scale appropriately.
Across all classes, there’s almost nothing that has regular damage + condition damage which can be optimized for Power/Crit heavy builds. It’s always suboptimal. In sPvP, suboptimal is another term for lunch meat. This is why you don’t see Scepter Necros or Pistol Engis going heavy Power/Crit.
Maybe, but we aren’t really talking about competitiveness in sPvP (there’s no real way to get around some weapons min/maxing better that others, and frankly I don’t care about that), we’re talking about the general usability of the set in any game mode.
The entire problem with P/P is that in any game mode and with any build it relies too much on Unload, a high-Initiative skill designed for quick burst, for sustained damage, which is a problem created by Vital Shot being too weak. Clearly, this is a simple problem with a very simple solution.
The only other option would be to completely gut and overhaul many sets (not just Thief’s P/P) to be full condition or full direct damage at the total expense of the other, which isn’t something I personally support because I don’t think it’s either fun or necessary – I like that most sets use both to some degree and don’t even think it’s as suboptimal as you seem to be arguing.
(edited by Einlanzer.1627)
Improving Vital Shot is not enough reason to pick P/P over P/D. That’s my point.
Just to provide some focus, this is the main point I disagree with. Many people will run with P/P just because they aesthetically like it, but regardless of that, P/P still trades off some of the condi emphasis of P/D for better burst. A lot of folks like to be able to burst, and P/P will continue doing it better than P/D regardless of any buffs that are made to Vital Shot.
If you’re talking about Unload, then you’re mistaken. Unload is hardly a burst damage, it feel more like an auto-attack with high chance to crit but it does nothing else. Compare to other dual-wield skills, Unload is too plain. There are many times that Sword AA deals more damage than Unload that costs 5 init.
Buffing Vital Shot would only allow you to have better sustained DPS when you want or need to avoid dumping all of your Initiative into Unload.
That is so untrue. If you think that P/P is burst/crit, that means that the Thief is not Condition Damage based and will not have a “better sustained DPS” using Vital Shot — buffed or not. And you are contradicting your previous statement; “P/P still trades off some of the condi emphasis of P/D for better burst”.
So how is P/P going to benefit from buffed Vital Shot again if it is a trade off?
http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning…there was Tarnished Coast…
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.
The fact that I mentioned it would be suboptimal in sPvP doesn’t mean it only effects sPvP. It will remain suboptimal all over, in all game modes, as you say.
As long as it’s mixed, it can never achieve optimal damage, which means regardless of what the knowledgeable/skilled player is doing, he/she will be forced to rely on Unload for optimal results. The only way to get around that is to buff the starting position of Vital Shot above the baseline set by all other auto attacks, to the point where it’s TOO powerful for players who put all their emphasis into survivability. They’ll get a great damage #1 skill for free.
I say:
(1) Increase the bleed duration of Vital Shot to 6(s) and reduce the physical damage.
(2) Alter the Pistol Mastery trait to functionally change Sneak Attack and Vital Shot to pure physical damage abilities while dual wielding pistols.
(3) Increase the Initiative cost of Unload to 6, increase the damage or reduce the channel time appropriately, and make it a TRUE burst ability, while still giving P/P Thieves something non-pointless to do while they’re not using it. The faster those 6 Initiative points get used up, the faster they can get back to using their now effective Vital Shot, which will make the set feel much less spammy on the whole. I really like the idea of increasing the Initiative Cost and casting time of Unload, because it means that the Thief can spend less time channeling and more time dodging and being mobile, which is what Thieves were made to do.
Even without the changes to Unload, it’s a 1 trait fix that can finally make P/P Thieves relevant.
Improving Vital Shot is not enough reason to pick P/P over P/D. That’s my point.
Just to provide some focus, this is the main point I disagree with. Many people will run with P/P just because they aesthetically like it, but regardless of that, P/P still trades off some of the condi emphasis of P/D for better burst. A lot of folks like to be able to burst, and P/P will continue doing it better than P/D regardless of any buffs that are made to Vital Shot.
If you’re talking about Unload, then you’re mistaken. Unload is hardly a burst damage, it feel more like an auto-attack with high chance to crit but it does nothing else. Compare to other dual-wield skills, Unload is too plain. There are many times that Sword AA deals more damage than Unload that costs 5 init.
Buffing Vital Shot would only allow you to have better sustained DPS when you want or need to avoid dumping all of your Initiative into Unload.
That is so untrue. If you think that P/P is burst/crit, that means that the Thief is not Condition Damage based and will not have a “better sustained DPS” using Vital Shot — buffed or not. And you are contradicting your previous statement; “P/P still trades off some of the condi emphasis of P/D for better burst”.
So how is P/P going to benefit from buffed Vital Shot again if it is a trade off?
Look, I’ll be blunt here- I don’t see how this is hard to understand. Any buff to Vital Shot means P/P will be doing more damage at the baseline, which reduces your dependence on Initiative to do basic DPS, which is at least 80% of the problem with the set. Your build is irrelevant. I really don’t know how else to explain it.
I’m not saying that a buff to Vital Shot is the only thing that would benefit P/P, there are probably other tweaks that it needs too. But, it is the most important change that’s needed, and completely reworking everything to where the #1 skill is functionally different for P/D and P/P goes against the larger game design.
(edited by Einlanzer.1627)
Why are you guys spending so much time talking about making changes ? !! They will never give us what we want and they are not going to spend time reading each thread we make.
They will never take any suggestions from us. All they do is have some random people test the game and make changes according to that!!
Do you really think they will make any changes because we ask for it ? No !! they don’t give a rats kitten about any build.
Improving Vital Shot is not enough reason to pick P/P over P/D. That’s my point.
Just to provide some focus, this is the main point I disagree with. Many people will run with P/P just because they aesthetically like it, but regardless of that, P/P still trades off some of the condi emphasis of P/D for better burst. A lot of folks like to be able to burst, and P/P will continue doing it better than P/D regardless of any buffs that are made to Vital Shot.
If you’re talking about Unload, then you’re mistaken. Unload is hardly a burst damage, it feel more like an auto-attack with high chance to crit but it does nothing else. Compare to other dual-wield skills, Unload is too plain. There are many times that Sword AA deals more damage than Unload that costs 5 init.
Buffing Vital Shot would only allow you to have better sustained DPS when you want or need to avoid dumping all of your Initiative into Unload.
That is so untrue. If you think that P/P is burst/crit, that means that the Thief is not Condition Damage based and will not have a “better sustained DPS” using Vital Shot — buffed or not. And you are contradicting your previous statement; “P/P still trades off some of the condi emphasis of P/D for better burst”.
So how is P/P going to benefit from buffed Vital Shot again if it is a trade off?
Look, I’ll be blunt here- I don’t see how this is hard to understand. Any buff to Vital Shot means P/P will be doing more damage at the baseline, which reduces your dependence on Initiative to do basic DPS, which is at least 80% of the problem with the set. Your build is irrelevant. I really don’t know how else to explain it.
It seems that you are the one not understanding. Let me keep it simple. Vital Shot is not a P/P auto-attack skill. It has noting to offer a P/P build whatsoever. The Vital Shot of P/D is more potent than P/P because P/D is built around condition damage while P/P is not.
Which part of that you’re not understanding?
I’m not saying that a buff to Vital Shot is the only thing that would benefit P/P, there are probably other tweaks that it needs too.
What I’m telling you is that Vital Shot doesn’t benefit P/P at all. If P/P goes hybrid, their Unload is really lame, even more so if they go condition damage just so Vital Shot deals its potential damage output. If P/P goes burst/crit, like it should, the changes on Vital Shot is negligible because P/P is better off spamming Unload. Fixing Vital Shot doesn’t change this, Unload will continue to be spammed.
However if Vital Shot stacks Vulnerability instead of Bleed, P/P would want to make the most of Unload so they will auto-attack before Unloading. The old Body Shot with longer Vulnerability served to do just this, but the init cost made it unfeasible.
While P/D needs bleed off Vital Shot, P/P needs vulnerability. Two different needs ought to get two different skills.
But, it is the most important change that’s needed, and completely reworking everything to where the #1 skill is functionally different for P/D and P/P goes against the larger game design.
Dual-wield skills are already going against the larger game design. So what are you saying?
http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning…there was Tarnished Coast…
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.
The fact that I mentioned it would be suboptimal in sPvP doesn’t mean it only effects sPvP. It will remain suboptimal all over, in all game modes, as you say.
As long as it’s mixed, it can never achieve optimal damage, which means regardless of what the knowledgeable/skilled player is doing, he/she will be forced to rely on Unload for optimal results. The only way to get around that is to buff the starting position of Vital Shot above the baseline set by all other auto attacks, to the point where it’s TOO powerful for players who put all their emphasis into survivability. They’ll get a great damage #1 skill for free.
I say:
(1) Increase the bleed duration of Vital Shot to 6(s) and reduce the physical damage.
(2) Alter the Pistol Mastery trait to functionally change Sneak Attack and Vital Shot to pure physical damage abilities while dual wielding pistols.
(3) Increase the Initiative cost of Unload to 6, increase the damage or reduce the channel time appropriately, and make it a TRUE burst ability, while still giving P/P Thieves something non-pointless to do while they’re not using it. The faster those 6 Initiative points get used up, the faster they can get back to using their now effective Vital Shot, which will make the set feel much less spammy on the whole. I really like the idea of increasing the Initiative Cost and casting time of Unload, because it means that the Thief can spend less time channeling and more time dodging and being mobile, which is what Thieves were made to do.
Even without the changes to Unload, it’s a 1 trait fix that can finally make P/P Thieves relevant.
Again, you’re hanging the entire usability of the set on one trait that simply does too much, which isn’t a good design. Now, I wouldn’t be opposed to, in addition to buffing Vital Shot, retooling Unload slightly to be a little more bursty, but I already think it’s fairly bursty.
As for Vital Shot not scaling with power/crit- People keep acting like it’s a condition skill when it’s actually a hybrid skill. It would scale as well with P/P as it does with P/D. I think that having mixed damage on a set is a tradeoff rather than a detriment (they sacrifice some optimizability for a lot more versatility) and I would oppose any movement to ‘purify’ weapon sets in this way.
Improving Vital Shot is not enough reason to pick P/P over P/D. That’s my point.
Just to provide some focus, this is the main point I disagree with. Many people will run with P/P just because they aesthetically like it, but regardless of that, P/P still trades off some of the condi emphasis of P/D for better burst. A lot of folks like to be able to burst, and P/P will continue doing it better than P/D regardless of any buffs that are made to Vital Shot.
If you’re talking about Unload, then you’re mistaken. Unload is hardly a burst damage, it feel more like an auto-attack with high chance to crit but it does nothing else. Compare to other dual-wield skills, Unload is too plain. There are many times that Sword AA deals more damage than Unload that costs 5 init.
Buffing Vital Shot would only allow you to have better sustained DPS when you want or need to avoid dumping all of your Initiative into Unload.
That is so untrue. If you think that P/P is burst/crit, that means that the Thief is not Condition Damage based and will not have a “better sustained DPS” using Vital Shot — buffed or not. And you are contradicting your previous statement; “P/P still trades off some of the condi emphasis of P/D for better burst”.
So how is P/P going to benefit from buffed Vital Shot again if it is a trade off?
Look, I’ll be blunt here- I don’t see how this is hard to understand. Any buff to Vital Shot means P/P will be doing more damage at the baseline, which reduces your dependence on Initiative to do basic DPS, which is at least 80% of the problem with the set. Your build is irrelevant. I really don’t know how else to explain it.
It seems that you are the one not understanding. Let me keep it simple. Vital Shot is not a P/P auto-attack skill. It has noting to offer a P/P build whatsoever. The Vital Shot of P/D is more potent than P/P because P/D is built around condition damage while P/P is not.
Which part of that you’re not understanding?
This is just flat out wrong, hilariously so. Vital Shot is both a direct damage and a condition damage skill, but even if it only did condition damage it would still contribute to P/P’s sustained DPS output. Likewise, Vital Shot is actually not any more potent with P/D than it is with P/P (it is in fact equally lackluster). The only difference is that with P/D, the skill that serves to shore up Vital Shot’s weakness (inadequately) is Initiative free, so that means P/D is more functional from a tactical perspective, despite also doing poor damage.
P/P and P/D are both mixed condition sets- one has slightly better burst and the other has slightly better utility. Both, however, do inadequate sustained damage ENTIRELY because Vital Shot is weaker than it should be.
Dual-wield skills are already going against the larger game design. So what are you saying?
No, dual-skills are specifically a thief mechanic alongside Stealing and Initiative. If they really want to, they’re welcome to change that mechanic into ‘every set combo has 5 totally different skills’, but that is neither necessary nor likely in the cards.
(edited by Einlanzer.1627)
Einlanzer, is there a point where having two people argue against you while making super salient points is going to give you pause for evaluation of your stance?
You keep talking about “Hybrid” skills. There’s almost no such thing, with a few exceptions (DPS moves that tack on Poison, since poison is a damaging condition which has functionality outside of damage). Tell me all the Sword Warriors, Rifle Warriors, Pistol Engineers, Scepter Necros, or Earth Elemenatlists, whose auto attacks have conditions, who are using Power/Crit and happy and dandy? That’s not a thing. You keep trying to pretend like it is. Honestly, how many things apply bleeds without having a base physical damage rider? Those aren’t all “Hybrid Attacks”.
Vital Shot is a CONDITION ATTACK. The fact that there’s a PORTION of it which can scale with power/crit, is just how condition attacks work in this game. It’s so there’s some generally atrophy even if conditions are cleansed quickly, I assume. Now is it a good condition attack? No, but Thieves who build heavily for conditions are less bothered by this because Caltrops makes up so much of the difference if you’re going for bleed damage.
Again, Vital Shot is a Condition Attack. Not a “Hybrid Attack”. All condition attacks have some physical damage associated with them. Good players almost never use them for Power/Crit builds. Frankly, I’d be perfectly fine with Vital Shot always being bad and relying entirely on Unload, as P/P Thieves have always done, if not for the fact that the affliction from which is suffers also impacts Sneak Attack. As it stands, P/P Thieves don’t have a good stealth attack either, and to me that’s a much bigger issue. One that should be addressed simultaneous with Vital Shot, if we’re addressing them.
Also, you still haven’t addressed why you think it’s okay to buff Vital Shot without considering the reason why it’s baseline power is balanced at what it is, in terms of how it will effect tanky Thieves. Your “Just buff it, it helps everybody and you won’t need Unload” argument is just…sooo silly. P/P would still have to rely on Unload. It still wouldn’t have a viable stealth attack.
(edited by Ludus Rex.1562)
Einlanzer, is there a point where having two people argue against you while making super salient points is going to give you pause for evaluation of your stance?
Nope, because I’ve spent a lot of time evaluating it already, I’m confident I’m right, and there are almost certainly more people that agree with me than disagree.
First, it’s not Vital Shot’s power that’s the problem – it’s the attack speed. They have already ‘admitted’ more or less that the autoattacks on many ranged weapons have improper tuning on their rates of fire and have adjusted several already. When compared to the Warrior’s Bleeding Shot – the latter deals more upfront damage and has a significantly longer bleed duration with a longer activation speed, leading you to conclude that Vital Shot is supposed to fire faster to compensate when it actually doesn’t. The issue with Vital Shot’s damage specs is an issue with its rate of fire that is likely to be more or less an oversight. As a side note, significantly fewer people complain about the Warrior’s Rifle feeling gimpy even though it has mixed damage and a very similar design schema to P/P, almost certainly because it has a functional autoattack that properly supports the weapon’s sustained damage output in-between bouts of burst coming from Volley and Kill Shot.
Second, you are arguing from the presumption of P/P being a pure crit set when it clearly isn’t. Regardless, you’re completely discounting condition damage as being worthless with a crit spec when it really isn’t – it’s a significant source of damage regardless of your build (it doesn’t scale as much as direct damage but is stronger at the baseline). The Sneak Attack (which is an example of a pure condi skill rather than a hybrid like Vital Shot) is still worthwhile to use with P/P even with a pure crit build and even more useful with a hybridized build simply because it’s 5 free bleed stacks, and 5 stacks of bleed is going to do a non-negligible amount of damage even with a total crit build.
(edited by Einlanzer.1627)
As a side note, significantly fewer people complain about the Warrior’s Rifle feeling gimpy even though it has mixed damage, almost certainly because it has a functional autoattack that properly supports the weapon’s sustained damage.
Incorrect again. Almost EVERYONE complains about Warrior Rifle #1 from the perspective of it’s physical damage. There are endless threads about people who want to go Zerk with a Rifle, but the auto attack is terrible for it.
Now, it’s certainly a much better attack on the whole and is probably complained about less, but that’s because unlike Vital Shot, it does function VERY well as a condition attack because of the baseline duration of 6(s), and the Warrior’s super easy access to the Deep Cuts trait, giving you an auto attack with 9(s) worth of Bleed for very little investment. You can’t really do that with Vital Shot.
So again, you’re trying to say things like “Hybrid” and “Mixed Damage”, but that’s because you have no idea what you’re talking about. It works as a Condition Weapon with Auto Attack, those players don’t complain. It stinks for Zerk builds, ALL of those Warriors complain.
Players don’t go “Hybrid Damage”. That is not a thing (very few exceptions). You’re Physical Damage, or you’re Condition Damage, if you’re DPS. Pistol/Pistol’s ONLY ability which fits in here is Unload, as a Physical Damage move. That’s it. Vital Shot and Sneak Attack are lousy BECAUSE they have bleeds attached. You can’t use anything else, because they steal initiative from Unload. You can’t REALLY go Conditions with P/P, because your best move is Sneak Attack, and you get much, much better access to it with P/D to regain Stealth.
So, again, P/P with Physical Damage has one move, and it’s Unload. P/P with Condition Damage is unused, because it’s strictly inferior to P/D for accessing Stealth. “Hybrid” is not a term used by any good players (again, few exceptions, this isn’t one).
Any Scenario in which Vital Shot and Sneak Attack have retain Bleed damage without Pistol offhand gaining access to Stealth, does NOTHING to change the viability for P/P as a Physical Damage build or as a Condition Damage build. Kay?
As a side note, significantly fewer people complain about the Warrior’s Rifle feeling gimpy even though it has mixed damage, almost certainly because it has a functional autoattack that properly supports the weapon’s sustained damage.
Incorrect again. Almost EVERYONE complains about Warrior Rifle #1 from the perspective of it’s physical damage. There are endless threads about people who want to go Zerk with a Rifle, but the auto attack is terrible for it.
Now, it’s certainly a much better attack on the whole and is probably complained about less, but that’s because unlike Vital Shot, it does function VERY well as a condition attack because of the baseline duration of 6(s), and the Warrior’s super easy access to the Deep Cuts trait, giving you an auto attack with 9(s) worth of Bleed for very little investment. You can’t really do that with Vital Shot.
So again, you’re trying to say things like “Hybrid” and “Mixed Damage”, but that’s because you have no idea what you’re talking about. It works as a Condition Weapon with Auto Attack, those players don’t complain. It stinks for Zerk builds, ALL of those Warriors complain.
Players don’t go “Hybrid Damage”. That is not a thing (very few exceptions). You’re Physical Damage, or you’re Condition Damage, if you’re DPS. Pistol/Pistol’s ONLY ability which fits in here is Unload, as a Physical Damage move. That’s it. Vital Shot and Sneak Attack are lousy BECAUSE they have bleeds attached. You can’t use anything else, because they steal initiative from Unload. You can’t REALLY go Conditions with P/P, because your best move is Sneak Attack, and you get much, much better access to it with P/D to regain Stealth.
So, again, P/P with Physical Damage has one move, and it’s Unload. P/P with Condition Damage is unused, because it’s strictly inferior to P/D for accessing Stealth. “Hybrid” is not a term used by any good players (again, few exceptions, this isn’t one).
Any Scenario in which Vital Shot and Sneak Attack have retain Bleed damage without Pistol offhand gaining access to Stealth, does NOTHING to change the viability for P/P as a Physical Damage build or as a Condition Damage build. Kay?
Well maybe those people should stop trying to go zerk with a weapon that is clearly designed for versatility. Sorry, your arguments are utterly unconvincing. You can make a million different suggestions for how to make P/P more ‘optimal’, but that the end of the day only one change is needed to make it functional – A buff to Vital Shot’s attack speed.
“Versatility”. You’re just chained to that misconception. Show me your “Versatile” build and drop your optimal attack rotation in here, and I’ll show you any focused build that outperforms it.
“Sorry your arguments are utterly unconvincing” is what you say to withdraw from the argument when you can’t refute valid points being made.
“Just Buff Vital Shot” won’t fix any of the issues. Zerk Players will still rely on Unload. Condition Players will still use P/D for stealth. P/P will still be a one move set.
“Versatility”. You’re just chained to that misconception. Show me your “Versatile” build and drop your optimal attack rotation in here, and I’ll show you any focused build that outperforms it.
“Sorry your arguments are utterly unconvincing” is what you say to withdraw from the argument when you can’t refute valid points being made.
“Just Buff Vital Shot” won’t fix any of the issues. Zerk Players will still rely on Unload. Condition Players will still use P/D for stealth. P/P will still be a one move set.
I doubt it. As I said before, even with a crit build, condition damage is typically non-negligible and works to supplement direct damage. Condition damage (from a good source) is significant even with a purely crit based build (hence why I use Caltrops a lot regardless of my build) just because of the differences in the way they scale and because you can often stack condition damage without significantly interrupting your direct damage.
Buffing Vital Shot’s attack rate by about 20% will increase both its direct damage and the supplemental condition damage by the same amount, serving as a badly needed boon to both P/P and P/D. Additionally, for P/P, this would also have the side-effect of creating a much better balance within the set – spamming Unload would still be the way to go to end short fights more quickly, but would be much less optimal in longer fights (like vs bosses) – where you need the flexibility to spend Initiative elsewhere (or god forbid evade)without cratering your sustained DPS. Moreover, it would grant you greater flexibility without requiring you to build a certain way for it.
Fundamentally, I think we’re arguing from two very different perspectives here and that’s most of the problem. Maybe you aren’t totally wrong from an end-game optimization perspective, but P/P doesn’t just have issues in regard to end-game optimization, it has issues right down to its basic usability (regardless of level or build), which is much more important (and I’m most certainly not wrong from that perspective). Changes you’re suggesting would be much more significant in scope and would carry some drawbacks, whereas simply buffing Vital Shot would be a very easy change and have no chance of harming the set in any way while improving its general usability substantially.
(edited by Einlanzer.1627)
but P/P doesn’t just have issues in regard to optimization, it has issues right down to its basic usability.
This is something we agree on.
The point I’m trying to get across to you, is that because one “can” play casually and make versatile builds, which do not not care about optimization, does not mean that we should overlook sets which make it IMPOSSIBLE to optimize.
Currently, P/P has one move optimized for it. That’s Unload. Unless the buff to Vital Shots was absurd, Unload would still be the only thing a Zerk Thief should do. Condition Thieves would still rather be P/D for stealth access.
So, if one WANTS to play optimally, and use a set effectively, and not just “general” around, then the P/P set still contains exactly 1 viable move. All this would do is make you slightly less upset in instances where you had nothing left but Vital Shot and Unload was impossible. The gameplay wouldn’t change at all.
It would be a very minor buff to the very small percentage of the time that you HAD to use Vital Shot instead of Unloading, like you want to. It would fix NONE of the core issues with P/P that we agree exist.
Functionally, I think the only people at all who benefit from this are tanky thieves, who want to gain some DPS without investing into DPS stats, who now have slightly improved DPS while saving their initiative for Blinding Powder. That’s not what I call fixing P/P.
but P/P doesn’t just have issues in regard to optimization, it has issues right down to its basic usability.
Currently, P/P has one move optimized for it. That’s Unload. Unless the buff to Vital Shots was absurd, Unload would still be the only thing a Zerk Thief should do. Condition Thieves would still rather be P/D for stealth access.
So, if one WANTS to play optimally, and use a set effectively, and not just “general” around, then the P/P set still contains exactly 1 viable move. All this would do is make you slightly less upset in instances where you had nothing left but Vital Shot and Unload was impossible. The gameplay wouldn’t change at all.
Well, this is what I wanted to address. We’re misfiring here. One, while I don’t disagree that Unload is the only optimizable move within P/P, that’s hardly unique to P/P. Many sets are set up to deal mixed damage and/or have multiple attribute dependency. I don’t think that’s as bad a thing as you seem to think it is, but that’s mostly beside the point.
More importantly, it’s the problems that are caused as an indirect consequence of the primary damage skill being an Initiative hog that I’m focused on. This is both unique to Thieves and unique to P/P due to the Initiative system. The way Initiative works, the autoattack should always be the primary DPS skill with the other skills providing various utility (I’d argue it should be this way on all sets period, but it’s particularly important on Thieves). This is the main reason I always crusade about Vital Shot specifically.
Essentially, #2, #3, and #5 are all ‘weaker’ than they should be not because they are actually weak skills but because they have to perpetually compete with Unload. They changed Body Shot because everyone complained about it, but anyone with a brain could see Body Shot was a casualty of the problem rather than the actual problem – that Unload inappropriately supersedes Vital Shot as the bread-and-butter DPS skill, indirectly rendering all of the utility skills impotent.
However, making Vital Shot fully direct damage would not only have much broader design implications but would also cause the opposite problem – what would be Unload’s role? TBC….
Ein, I feel like we’re making progress here.
I agree that a major problem of P/P is that anyone who wants to do direct damage can only use Unload. People who want condition damage are P/D. Currently, Vital Shot and Unload exist on the same toolbar while having nothing to do with each other.
All I’m pointing out, is that there’ no buff to Vital Shot (outside of an insane, completely unbalanced buff), that would stop Unload from being the only Initiative choice for P/P. Again, exception to the Thief who just wants to tank and do minimal damage.
I also agree that the auto attack should provide decent damage, so that other attacks can provide utility. This is true of most other weapon sets for most classes. Unload being the only way to do damage really pigeon holes P/P Thieves. I agree that auto attack #1 should be able to do damage. Look, we’re still on the same page! Amazing.
That said, again, in terms of optimization, or even just playing your class well, there’s no such thing as “hybrid”. It’s a condition move or a direct damage move, you can’t really spec for it all. And, making one thing super inferior to other things, ultimatly invalidates it as a choice. So, currently Unload should be changed entirely to support a condition centric build, and Vital Shot should have reduced physical damage and increased bleed duration (6s). Then, Unload would have no place on this toolbar.
OR, Vital Shot should do all physical damage, so a Thief could still do reasonable damage with Zerk stats, while leaving the rest of his Inititaive open for utility moves like Body Shot or Blinding Powder.
The problem, is that if you choose one of these options, you’ve eliminated the other playstyle and half of the community is upset. So to me, clearly the correct answer is to implement a trait which changes how Vital Shot and Sneak Attack function, so people can opt in if they want to, and both playstyles would be satisfied.
Currently, you have defensive builds, condition builds, direct damage builds, utility builds, etc. but P/P can only do ONE of them, which would be fine, but it only gets ONE button for it. That’s Unload. It’s narrower than almost anything else in the game.
A slight buff to Vital Shot does not increase ones capacity to do “reasonable” damage and use initiative for other things. It MAY increase the viability of condition damage for the set, but then your Zerk Thieves are unhappy and the 3 button is useless. Even then, they’d only go P/P if they wanted Blinding Powder more than Sneak Attack, which means they’re tanky thieves.
Player choice should be the moto. It’s always good. Don’t know why you think traiting in to no bleed damage on Vital Shot is complicated, bad for Thieves, bad for the game, or anything else that you’re asserting. Seems like pure win to me.
How about making unload dependent on vital shot?
I agree that vital shot contributes very minimal to unload if you build for unload. I also agree that body shot’s vulnerability + condition duration benefits unload a lot more than vital shot but the cost renders it unusable. Why not combine bleed and vulnerability functionality in 1 and bake it into unload.
Unload deals x% more damage per stack(PER STACK) of bleed. It buffs unload in a way that doesn’t promote simply spamming unload for more damage. It also works with sneak attack since it would deal more damage after 1 sneak attack, than it would after 1 vital shot.
It fits with P/P’s design of wanting condition duration more than damage. Increasing condition duration would increase direct damage.
I use p/p, it’s superior to p/d for condi. It works perfectly for what it needs to do. Interrupts with pistol offhand are really strong if you’re good enough to use them when it counts and the blind field comes in handy. Lots of healing with dblossom and malice. Application timing and forcing removes are important to put out good damage. d/d p/p 0/0/30/20/20 settlers/carrion. I would also like to add that I use unload on eth fields quite frequently.
(edited by Deku.3129)
Ludus, I’m really not trying to be argumentative, but there are still a couple of things that you’re very hung up on that I just don’t think are as true as you think they are.
First is the notion of condition versus physical. There are degrees here, whether you want to admit it or not. Flamestrike is a condition skill, Sneak Attack is a condition skill. Vital Shot is a mixed skill. The physical damage it does is comparable to the bleed damage it does, and which is supplemental will vary based on your build. A buff to its attack speed means a buff to both its physical damage and its condition damage, meaning less reliance on Unload, regardless of your spec. It doesn’t mean Unload won’t still be spammed by zerkers- that isn’t the point, it just relieves some of the burden from Unload so that using P/P functionally doesn’t require building around crit and regen and spamming it constantly to maintain reasonable sustained DPS. This, in turn, gives the set much greater adaptability.
Second is the need for optimizing. You seem to be arguing with a hyperbole that any condition damage whatsoever on P/P is always useless because anyone using P/P has (or should have) a zerker build and gets zero benefit from Vital Shot when that simply isn’t the case. Not only do a lot of of people use P/P with a hybrid or even condi primary build, and not only do the bleeds represent fairly substantial damage even without any condition buffs whatsoever, but P/P already gets rather large benefits from condition duration with its other skills, so buffing its utility means also buffing the bleeds from Vital Shot. With a substantial baseline buff (probably about 20%) to both the direct damage and the bleed damage on Vital Shot that is further improved through crit and condi duration buffs, Vital Shot ends up largely closing the DPS gap between Unload and itself. This means in any build other than pure zerker, Unload takes on a more utilitarian role without losing any of its current efficacy – mostly used to finish weakened opponents.
In truth, due to the benefits of improved mobility and defensive utility along with the fact that the auto deals mixed damage, it’s easy to argue that P/P works best when set up as something of a hybrid, using primarily power/crit and condition duration. While that’s definitely debatable, the purpose of this change is not improving the station of zerker thieves so much as it is making the set more playable in general.
(edited by Einlanzer.1627)
Vital Shot is not a mixed skill. It’s a condition damage skill. It’s a weak condition damage skill, but condition damage Thieves are still fine because of how powerful caltrops is.
Let’s not talk about Zerk Thieves, since you obviously think one of the most popular playstyles in the game is irrelevant (popular for its efficiency, again something you don’t seem to think matters or is a real concern). Let’s talk about ANY pistol Thief with whose emphasis is damage. So, in other words, any Thief who wants to be as DPSy as they can be while holding a pistol.
Which DPS Thief is helped by your change? Only P/D condition builds, because P/D will always do more damage than P/P, because if your emphasis is DPS via conditions, then you want as many Sneak Attacks as possible. I’d argue that by definition, there’s no such thing as a DPS P/P Condition build. There are certainly players who use condition damage and wield dual pistols, but the fact that they traded out blinding powder for cloak and dagger means they’re missing out on sneak attacks, and have lower total DPS than their P/D counterpart. Are there valid reasons to do this? Sure. Is this a valid playstle? Sure. P/P still does inferior damage to P/D Thieves after your change, making it an less valid choice for the Thief whose primary emphasis is damage.
So, really you’ve improved the damage P/P condition Thieves, but you haven’t increased the VIABILITY of it one bit, because the thing you’re having trouble grasping is that all choices must be compared to all other available choices. As long as P/D is strictly superior for condition damage, P/P is still only a valid choice for casuals or people who don’t care about efficiency at all. Possibly for those who think the survivability of Blinding Powder is more important than increased damage, but again, they’re not focusing on making a DPS Thief then.
Now this “mixed” damage you keep speaking of? Well, that’s not a real thing. There’s no such thing as a build that has a DPS emphasis that’s “mixed”. There’s Rabid gear, to be sure, but the emphasis on that is condition damage, and the crit is almost always used to proc conditions which occur on crit.
Show me the mixed damage P/P spec you’re talking about. Use this:
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/
I’m sure you’ll technically be able to play it, and it will technically be less bad after your proposed change than it is now, but it will not be a DPS build. Or if you make it with DPS in mind, it will be strictly inferior to other available DPS builds, which again, invalidates it as a DPS choice for anyone concerned with being good at what they’re doing.
After your change, the only way to be a P/P Thief whose primary focus is damage, will be to Unload.
P/P Thieves with like, Rabid gear will benefit from the faster auto attack time, but will still be inferior to their P/D counterparts in terms of pure DPS. “Hybrid” players will continue to enjoy the game, because math and efficiency aren’t concerns of theirs. The Thief forums will still be full of threads from P/P Thieves looking for something other than just Unload spamming, because that will still be the role of P/P for anyone who cares about being relevant. Nothing would be resolved, except for the buff to Thieves in Celestial and Rabid gear who want to be slightly more DPS while still being able to play with Blinding Powder. This is not the current fundamental problem with P/P.
You say “need for optimizing” like it’s something only slimy power gamers do. Efficiency matters. Just because you’re not super concerned about it, doesn’t mean other players aren’t. The current fundamental problem with P/P, is that the only efficient (efficiency is something good players like to use) way to DPS with it is via Unload. This is a major concern for all P/Pers who understand the issue. That’s WHY it’s an issue. That’s why it’s discussed so much. Lots of players want to hold two pistols, and not be considered inferior to the task they’re performing unless they’re holding down the 3 button.
Unload deals x% more damage per stack(PER STACK) of bleed. It buffs unload in a way that doesn’t promote simply spamming unload for more damage. It also works with sneak attack since it would deal more damage after 1 sneak attack, than it would after 1 vital shot.
Maybe make the init cost of unload 6+, but reduce the ini cost per stack of bleed on your target (up to a limit)
snip
Vital Shot is a mixed damage skill, and given the role it should be playing, both its physical and condition damage are weaker than they should be. This isn’t a matter of opinion. Within skills, condition damage is valued lower than physical damage is due to its unreliable and delayed nature. Therefore we expect skills that are partially or mostly condition damage to do more damage overall than skills with only physical damage, and we also expect the condition component on any mixed skill to be higher than the physical component, though in Vital Shot’s case it isn’t by much:
Level 80 baseline stats:
Vital Shot – 134 damage, 170 bleed damage, 2.2 shots per 1.75 seconds
Unload – 101 damage, 8 shots per 1.75 seconds
Total damage in 1.75 seconds:
Vital Shot -@ 295 direct damage, 374 bleed damage
Unload – @ 808 direct damage
Analysis – Unload is significantly stronger, which is bad. The two should do comparable damage so that Unload can function in a utilitarian capacity.
Buffed by 20%
Vital Shot – 354 direct, 449 bleed
Unload – 808 damage
Analysis – about right. The damage is nearly identical, which means Unload is now utilitarian instead of primary DPS – used to do fast damage when you need it.
Now what if we go with zerker stats? Here’s about what you see:
Vital Shot – 288 direct damage, 170 bleed damage
Unload – 216 direct damage
In 1.75 seconds:
Vital Shot – 634 damage (adjusted for crits, about 900) , 374 bleed damage
Unload – 1728 damage (adjust for crits, about 2400)
Analysis – Unload is about twice as strong, which is fine for Unload because it’s meant to synergize with zerker stats. However, because of the relative weakness of Vital Shot, DPS tanks too hard when Unload spamming is interrupted. Vital Shot should be closer to 2/3 the damage of Unload.
Buffed by 20%:
Vital Shot: 760 (about 1100 with crits), 448 bleed damage
Unload: 1728 (about 2400 with crits)
Analysis: Vital Shot is now closer to 2/3 the strength of Unload, which is about right. In order to get the high damage/crits of Unload, you sacrifice some sustained DPS and some utility. However, when you can’t or dont’ want to spam Unload, you’re in a substantially better place than before the buff.
Zerker is irrelevant, not because it isn’t important and not because I don’t understand efficiency (lol), but because zerker-spike damage isn’t the primary area of concern (though Unload could stand to receive a slight buff IF Vital Shot gets a bigger one). Any set’s performance is about way more than just that, and it is in fact P/P’s utility, mobility, and ability to manage reasonable DPS without initiative or uber-optimization that need help. It just so happens that the reason its utility is subpar is because it stays perpetually locked in a losing resource competition with the primary damage skill. Moreover, P/D has the opposite problem – good utility but poor damage (the OPness of Caltrops masks how gimpy P/D actually is on its own) for the EXACT SAME REASON – Vital Shot is tuned poorly and under-performs even with the Sneak Attack supplementing it.
Arenanet can try to totally reinvent the wheel by converting Vital Shot into a pure damage skill only when using P/P and then buff it in both cases, doing something completely asymmetrical, against all convention, and relying on specific traits to be of any help at all, or they can take the good enough approach and just kittening buff Vital Shot by a substantial enough amount at the baseline (through adjusting its rate of fire) to shore up P/P’s utility and P/D’s damage. They still retain distinctive enough roles.
(edited by Einlanzer.1627)
snip
Vital Shot is a mixed damage skill, and given the role it should be playing, both its physical and condition damage are weaker than they should be. This isn’t a matter of opinion.
Sample Lv 80 stats for mixed build with slightly more condition than power:
Vital Shot – 224 damage, 305 bleed damage, 2.2 shots per 1.75 seconds
Unload – 168 damage, 8 shots per 1.75 secondsTotal damage in 1.75 seconds:
Vital Shot -@ 493 direct damage, 668 bleed damage
Unload – @ 1344 direct damageZerker is irrelevant, not because it isn’t important and not because I don’t understand efficiency (lol), but because zerker-spike damage isn’t the primary area of concern (though Unload could stand to receive a slight buff IF Vital Shot gets a bigger one). Any set’s performance is about way more than just that, and it is in fact P/P’s utility, mobility, and ability to manage reasonable DPS without initiative or uber-optimization that need help. It just so happens that the reason its utility is subpar is because it stays perpetually locked in a losing resource competition with the primary damage skill. Moreover, P/D has the opposite problem – good utility but poor damage (the OPness of Caltrops masks how gimpy P/D actually is on its own) for the EXACT SAME REASON – Vital Shot is tuned poorly and under-performs even with the Sneak Attack supplementing it.
Arenanet can try to totally reinvent the wheel by converting Vital Shot into a pure damage skill only when using P/P and then buff it in both cases, doing something completely asymmetrical, against all convention, and relying on specific traits to be of any help at all, or they can take the good enough approach and just kittening buff Vital Shot by a substantial enough amount at the baseline (through adjusting its rate of fire) to shore up P/P’s utility and P/D’s damage. They still retain distinctive enough roles.
Mixed damage still isn’t a thing, no matter how many times you repeat the phrase. Look at the forums. How many people are complaining about mixed damage in PvP? How many people are concerned about the mixed damage centric meta? How many people want a buff to their mixed damage builds? What does mixed damage scale with? Show me your mixed damage DPS centric build.
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/
Whenever you’re ready.
Your approach fixes nothing for anyone who wants to DPS. It only increases the marginal DPS of people who aren’t optimizing for it. Still gotta go P/D for heavy condition DPS. Still gotta Unload for Physical DPS. Mixed DPS still doesn’t exist anywhere but your imagination. Okay, it technically exists. Technically you’re doing physical and condition damage. You’re just doing much much less than any focused build, so why bother buffing the numbers for people who don’t even care what kind of numbers they’re putting out?
snip
Vital Shot is a mixed damage skill, and given the role it should be playing, both its physical and condition damage are weaker than they should be. This isn’t a matter of opinion.
Sample Lv 80 stats for mixed build with slightly more condition than power:
Vital Shot – 224 damage, 305 bleed damage, 2.2 shots per 1.75 seconds
Unload – 168 damage, 8 shots per 1.75 secondsTotal damage in 1.75 seconds:
Vital Shot -@ 493 direct damage, 668 bleed damage
Unload – @ 1344 direct damageZerker is irrelevant, not because it isn’t important and not because I don’t understand efficiency (lol), but because zerker-spike damage isn’t the primary area of concern (though Unload could stand to receive a slight buff IF Vital Shot gets a bigger one). Any set’s performance is about way more than just that, and it is in fact P/P’s utility, mobility, and ability to manage reasonable DPS without initiative or uber-optimization that need help. It just so happens that the reason its utility is subpar is because it stays perpetually locked in a losing resource competition with the primary damage skill. Moreover, P/D has the opposite problem – good utility but poor damage (the OPness of Caltrops masks how gimpy P/D actually is on its own) for the EXACT SAME REASON – Vital Shot is tuned poorly and under-performs even with the Sneak Attack supplementing it.
Arenanet can try to totally reinvent the wheel by converting Vital Shot into a pure damage skill only when using P/P and then buff it in both cases, doing something completely asymmetrical, against all convention, and relying on specific traits to be of any help at all, or they can take the good enough approach and just kittening buff Vital Shot by a substantial enough amount at the baseline (through adjusting its rate of fire) to shore up P/P’s utility and P/D’s damage. They still retain distinctive enough roles.
Mixed damage still isn’t a thing, no matter how many times you repeat the phrase. Look at the forums. How many people are complaining about mixed damage in PvP? How many people are concerned about the mixed damage centric meta? How many people want a buff to their mixed damage builds? What does mixed damage scale with? Show me your mixed damage DPS centric build.
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/
Whenever you’re ready.Your approach fixes nothing for anyone who wants to DPS. It only increases the marginal DPS of people who aren’t optimizing for it. Still gotta go P/D for heavy condition DPS. Still gotta Unload for Physical DPS. Mixed DPS still doesn’t exist anywhere but your imagination. Okay, it technically exists. Technically you’re doing physical and condition damage. You’re just doing much much less than any focused build, so why bother buffing the numbers for people who don’t even care what kind of numbers they’re putting out?
Your problem is that you have tunnel vision. You can only think about the game from the perspective of min/maxing for DPS even though that isn’t even the crux of the argument here. I honestly have neither the time or the energy to keep these shenanigans up, I showed you some raw numbers above (edited), which fall exactly in line with how P/P should function.
I think that the super laughable math you just put up pretty much makes my entire argument for me. The math that has super low values for both physical damage and condition damage, and does not take crits into account at all.
Are you aware that you just posted a scenario in which Vital Shot is at a slight disadvantage to Unload, because Unload is doing 768 DPS per second? LOL! Unload at 768 DPS per second. Wowsers. How is that math relevant to anyone with any common sense?
Those are clearly the tool tips of someone who’s not even trying to DPS. So like, who cares if they get a DPS buff? Let someone with that stat mix and those tooltips make an ATTEMPT to DPS, before you buff their abilities.
So silly.
I think that the super laughable math you just put up pretty much makes my entire argument for me. The math that has super low values for both physical damage and condition damage, and does not take crits into account at all.
Are you aware that you just posted a scenario in which Vital Shot is at a slight disadvantage to Unload, because Unload is doing 768 DPS per second? LOL! Unload at 768 DPS per second. Wowsers. How is that math relevant to anyone with any common sense?
Those are clearly the tool tips of someone who’s not even trying to DPS. So like, who cares if they get a DPS buff? Let someone with that stat mix and those tooltips make an ATTEMPT to DPS, before you buff their abilities.
So silly.
The math is actually pretty spot on, sorry to burst your bubble. Why don’t you double check it?
Again, because there is no build and no combination of stats that moves what you’re proposing from horrible, your only option is to fall back on calling me a min/maxer, as though trying not to be horrible is somehow shameful.
Most players want to have at least semi respectable numbers. Your proposal can never achieve that.
I keep defying you, show me the build, and I’ll modify my math to account for your proposed 20% increase in vital shot. http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/
It will still perform laughably compared to tons of alternatives, making it not an option at all. Sure you “could” use it, and it wouldn’t be as bad as it currently is, but people could also auto attack with a level 1 sword and no offhand, technically. It’s not a VIABLE option, that’st he problem. I don’t see why you’re so concerned about improving life for people with absurd stat combinations who don’t care about their own DPS output.
(edited by Ludus Rex.1562)
Again, because there is no build and no combination of stats that moves what you’re proposing from horrible, your only option is to fall back on calling me a min/maxer, as though trying not to be horrbile is somehow shameful.
Most players want to have at least semi respectable numbers. Your proposal can never achieve that.
I keep defying you, show me the build, and I’ll modify my math to account for your proposed 20% increase in vital shot. http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/
It will still perform laughably compared to tons of alternatives, making it not an option at all. Sure you “could” use it, and it wouldn’t be as bad as it currently is, but people could also auto attack with a level 1 sword and no offhand, technically. It’s not a VIABLE option, that’st he problem. I don’t see why you’re so concerned about improving life for people with absurd stat combinations who their own DPS output.
So, you use P/P now, with a zerker build?
The math is spot on with WHAT stats? Let’s see the build. I’ve got it someplace near 678 condition damage and 1211 power to produce those numbers, and you still aren’t accounting for crits at all. Who could possibly have stats like that? That’s horrible. It’s absurd. I guess you’re right, they’re very comparable for horrible players who don’t know what they’re doing, and aren’t relevant to any meaningful thief discussion ever. You really showed me.
The math is spot on with WHAT stats? Let’s see the build. I’ve got it someplace near 678 condition damage and 1211 power to produce those numbers, and you still aren’t accounting for crits at all. Who could possibly have stats like that? That’s horrible. It’s absurd. I guess you’re right, they’re very comparable for horrible players who don’t know what they’re doing, and aren’t relevant to any meaningful thief discussion ever. You really showed me.
Did you look at the god kitten post? The initial array is baseline – 912 power and 0 condition damage. The second array is full berserker stats, with crits included.
You see, how something scales, or what it looks like with certain builds is microscopic in scale. What we really need to look at first is the baseline – only when that’s calibrated reasonably well can we move on and discuss the effects and scaling of different builds. P/P zerker Unload spam isn’t the kittening problem. P/P period is the problem.
(edited by Einlanzer.1627)
Did I …did I look at the post? You just edited that 5 minutes ago. The post I replied to is still quoted in my initial response.
Like, you just swapped those numbers around because your initial example was so obscenely stupid. What a joke.
Did I …did I look at the post? You just edited that 5 minutes ago. The post I replied to is still quoted in my initial response.
Like, you just swapped those numbers around because your initial example was so obscenely stupid. What a joke.
Uh, no, I was playing around the build editor and edited it multiple times before you even responded to it. I first was going to use mixed stats as an example then decided you’d deride me for it and decided to show baseline and zerker for a purer illustration of my argument.
I find your haughty condescension quite amusing, to be honest. I am 1000% confident I have a better conceptual grasp of the situation than you do, and have explained concisely how P/P performs, how it should perform, and how to get it there in a way that doesn’t require crazy overhauls, mandatory traits, or breaking anything else.
Vital Shot doesn’t need to compete with Unload with zerker stats, it just needs to compete with Unload at the baseline, which would pretty much fix 80% of the issues with both P/P and P/D while allowing them to remain distinctive- pure condi would still want P/D because they get more benefit from the Sneak Attack than Unload, pure physical would still want P/P because they more benefit from Unload than the Sneak Attack. If you can’t understand something that simple, I don’t know what else to tell you. With that, I’m done with this argument. Goodnight.
(edited by Einlanzer.1627)
Level 80 baseline stats:
Vital Shot – 134 damage, 170 bleed damage, 2.2 shots per 1.75 seconds
Unload – 101 damage, 8 shots per 1.75 secondsTotal damage in 1.75 seconds:
Vital Shot -@ 295 direct damage, 374 bleed damage
Unload – @ 808 direct damageAnalysis – Unload is significantly stronger, which is bad. The two should do comparable damage so that Unload can function in a utilitarian capacity.
Buffed by 20%
Vital Shot – 354 direct, 449 bleed
Unload – 808 damageAnalysis – about right. The damage is nearly identical, which means Unload is now utilitarian instead of primary DPS – used to do fast damage when you need it.
Now what if we go with zerker stats? Here’s about what you see:
Vital Shot – 288 direct damage, 170 bleed damage
Unload – 216 direct damageIn 1.75 seconds:
Vital Shot – 634 damage (adjusted for crits, about 900) , 374 bleed damage
Unload – 1728 damage (adjust for crits, about 2400)Analysis – Unload is about twice as strong, which is fine for Unload because it’s meant to synergize with zerker stats. However, because of the relative weakness of Vital Shot, DPS tanks too hard when Unload spamming is interrupted. Vital Shot should be closer to 2/3 the damage of Unload.
Buffed by 20%:
Vital Shot: 760 (about 1100 with crits), 448 bleed damage
Unload: 1728 (about 2400 with crits)Analysis: Vital Shot is now closer to 2/3 the strength of Unload, which is about right. In order to get the high damage/crits of Unload, you sacrifice some sustained DPS and some utility. However, when you can’t or dont’ want to spam Unload, you’re in a substantially better place than before the buff.
Zerker is irrelevant, not because it isn’t important and not because I don’t understand efficiency (lol), but because zerker-spike damage isn’t the primary area of concern (though Unload could stand to receive a slight buff IF Vital Shot gets a bigger one). Any set’s performance is about way more than just that, and it is in fact P/P’s utility, mobility, and ability to manage reasonable DPS without initiative or uber-optimization that need help. It just so happens that the reason its utility is subpar is because it stays perpetually locked in a losing resource competition with the primary damage skill. Moreover, P/D has the opposite problem – good utility but poor damage (the OPness of Caltrops masks how gimpy P/D actually is on its own) for the EXACT SAME REASON – Vital Shot is tuned poorly and under-performs even with the Sneak Attack supplementing it.
Alright, so in this super cornball scenario, let’s examine the figures for proposed (improved) Vital Shot using Zerker gear. What? That’s interesting. Looks like crits modify Vital Shot by 44.7% while only modifying Unload by 38.8%. Seems suspicious. Oh well, mistakes happen.
Now let’s look at the total values: You’re claiming zerk gear, but the damage % added by crits is only 38.8%. Weird, because with moderate Zerk gear granting 100% crit damage and only 50% crit chance (a super super low value, actual DPS Unload Thieves can achieve closer to 70%, without Fury), one would expect that critting for 100% bonus damage 50% of the time would yield at least a 50% damage buff. Huh. Guess it’s not very good ‘Zerk gear. Okay, well…sure. Maybe we didn’t take any traits into account. Plenty of people go full Zerk gear with no traits. No biggie.
The other thing is you keep trying to discount Zerk gear, but what you’re not getting is that builds with a heavy emphasis on conditions outperform your P/P, improved Vital Shot build just as badly. Focusing on a damage type is a thing. Mixed damage is not.
Unload deals x% more damage per stack(PER STACK) of bleed. It buffs unload in a way that doesn’t promote simply spamming unload for more damage. It also works with sneak attack since it would deal more damage after 1 sneak attack, than it would after 1 vital shot.
Maybe make the init cost of unload 6+, but reduce the ini cost per stack of bleed on your target (up to a limit)
It could fill the void opportunist would make should the change go through.
Unload 5 ini
x% chance to gain 1 ini per bleed stack on hit (1sec icd). That makes unload a 4 ini cost (somewhat).
Vital Shot doesn’t need to compete with Unload with zerker stats, it just needs to compete with Unload at the baseline
There you have it folks! Throw all the scaling for all abilities out the window. They don’t matter. Scaling is now irrelevant. Things only need to be comparable at the baseline. If stats and traits are added so that one ability grossly outperforms the other, making it irrelevant, that’s neither here nor there. I feel like we’ve really wrapped this one up nicely. Let’s go out and celebrate.
Another job well done.
Vital Shot doesn’t need to compete with Unload with zerker stats, it just needs to compete with Unload at the baseline
There you have it folks! Throw all the scaling for all abilities out the window. They don’t matter. Scaling is now irrelevant. Things only need to be comparable at the baseline. If stats and traits are added so that one ability grossly outperforms the other, making it irrelevant, that’s neither here nor there. I feel like we’ve really wrapped this one up nicely. Let’s go out and celebrate.
Another job well done.
Nothing like quote mining to concede defeat. Thanks for the last laugh.
edited to add – having mixed damage on sets is obviously an intentional design, and denying that it exists won’t make it go away. It’s a smart one, too, because it requires you to make tactical choices between what you want to bolster and what you want to sacrifice and to what degree, which makes the game more interesting. The entire issue with P/P is that it’s pigeon-holed, there is no tactical choice to make – it’s glass up Unload or nothing. More people are complaining about the resulting lack of utility than they are about the optimized damage of the set, which you seem to be unaware of.
(edited by Einlanzer.1627)
Right, you propose a Vital Shot tweak like it will fix anything, then go on to immediately admit that Zerk Thieves, of whom you do not seem to be a fan, will notice zero difference because they’ll still rely entirely on Unload. This changes nothing for them, but you’re not acknowledging any problems existing for them, so that’s fine. Not like there are a zillion threads on this forum with people complaining about it. It’s solid.
You then just summarily ignore that in terms of condition damage, P/P would still be at an inferior place when compared to P/D, meaning it’s niche wouldn’t really be filled here either. “Mixed Damage” is not a thing, at least not in any respectable quantities, so let’s toss that right out. I still have no idea who you think this helps. Except for maybe P/D Thieves. I guess it helps them, but they didn’t need help. The freakin’ thread title is about P/P.
Guess it helps horrible builds that nobody is using be slightly less horrible. Fantastic.
edited to add – having mixed damage on sets is obviously an intentional design, and denying that it exists won’t make it go away. It’s a smart one, too, because it requires you to make tactical choices between what you want to bolster and what you want to sacrifice and to what degree, which makes the game more interesting. The entire issue with P/P is that it’s pigeon-holed, there is no tactical choice to make – it’s glass up Unload or nothing. More people are complaining about the resulting lack of utility than they are about the optimized damage of the set, which you seem to be unaware of.
Mixed damage is still bizarre fantasy you’re having. There’s physical damage on all condition based attacks, you still can’t BUILD for mixed damage. You can have low mixed damage while building for survivability, but if you try to build for “mixed damage” you just end up with lousy damage.
I do agree with you that the main problem lies in a lack of choice when it comes to utility. Of course, the utility exists, players just can’t use it because the choice is so one sided in favor of doing real DPS that you’re forced to go P/D or use Unload if you want it. So, if you’re P/P, you don’t have choice. This is where I still agree with you.
I’m pointing out that a 20% increase to Vital Shot’s attack speed still leaves an outrageous gap between Vital Shot and ANY focused DPS type. So, it’s STILL not a viable choice. It just becomes a less horrible choice than it was a moment ago, and the number of players who choose it and then spend initiative on the existing utility skills might go up slightly, but everyone who currently builds towards DPS (because who needs utility when your opponent is dead?) will still not have any additional choice granted to them. They’ll still want Sneak Attacks and Unload. Your proposal narrows the gap somewhat, but not nearly enough to fix any of the issues.
…oh well, at least we agree that the problem is a matter of choice. That’s something, anyway.
Vital Shot is a mixed damage skill, and given the role it should be playing, both its physical and condition damage are weaker than they should be.
I know there was a lot more to this post, byt I just wanted to point out (as someone else has) that vital shot is as mixed damage as necros’ scepter auto. Vital shot has a 0.4 multiplier on it while the first 2 hits of scepter auto have a 0.35 multiplier on them and a 0.5 multiplier on the last hit + poison making it an arguably better weapon for power due to the -33% healing aspect of it. You just don’t see necros using it as a power weapon though because its potential for condition is far greater than its potential for power. At best vital shot is a hybrid weapon skill but hybrid builds aren’t even sub-optimal in this game, they are sub par.
At best vital shot is a hybrid weapon skill but hybrid builds aren’t even sub-optimal in this game, they are sub par.
P/D celestial is viable (in wvw), though not inherently any better than full condition.
Vital Shot is a mixed damage skill, and given the role it should be playing, both its physical and condition damage are weaker than they should be.
I know there was a lot more to this post, byt I just wanted to point out (as someone else has) that vital shot is as mixed damage as necros’ scepter auto. Vital shot has a 0.4 multiplier on it while the first 2 hits of scepter auto have a 0.35 multiplier on them and a 0.5 multiplier on the last hit + poison making it an arguably better weapon for power due to the -33% healing aspect of it. You just don’t see necros using it as a power weapon though because its potential for condition is far greater than its potential for power. At best vital shot is a hybrid weapon skill but hybrid builds aren’t even sub-optimal in this game, they are sub par.
Yes, but my argument was never about optimizing damage for P/P around hybrid builds using Vital Shot, which very clearly doesn’t make sense. That’s a complete strawman that I tried to nip but somehow became the context of the debate anyway.
My argument was referring to how P/P performs at the baseline. Vital Shot does mixed damage, which means it doesn’t optimize well, which is fine (many weapons are set up that way), it just needs to be stronger at the baseline – you have Unload for zerker and Sneak Attack/Caltrops for condi. Maybe Unload should shoot a little faster or have an Initiative cost reduction to support better burst on P/P with zerker builds. However, that absolutely should not happen in a vacuum, because P/P and P/D both have a more significant root issue that buffing Unload alone would only make worse.
P/P and P/D suffer in the utility and damage departments respectively (again, P/D is actually horribly weak on its own, its weakness is masked by how strong Caltrops are). This is the case with any build, at any level, in any game mode, and it’s mostly due to one thing – that Vital Shot has too slow of a rate of fire for its damage specs and underperforms in ALL situations with ALL builds. It’s critical that this be fixed before tuning is done on other traits and skills in either set. This would make P/P and P/D significantly more usable while leveling and/or with hybridized (including defensive) builds. It would also substantially improve your ability to optimize damage with P/D and slightly improve the general performance of P/P with optimized builds (by granting you better damage between Unloads).
That is by far the best solution to Pistol’s issues short of redesigning everything from the ground up, which I highly doubt is in the cards, or putting the burden of fixing it on traits, which is a bad design.
If my suggestion wasn’t too much, I would say let Vital Shot has the same direct damage as Trick Shot(or a little bit lower but not the crappy one we have right now) while keeping the 4sec bleeding.
I know some people are trying to remake P/P into something more interesting and all but I think the current one we have now is already interesting on its own but got one down side and that is Vital Shot failing to do enough damage when you go full Berserker.
And for the love of God sake, I don’t know how many countless times I failed to land Body Shot when my target moving 500 units away from me. Can this skill fail anymore than that?
All is vain.
Yes, but my argument was never about optimizing damage for P/P around hybrid builds using Vital Shot, which very clearly doesn’t make sense. That’s a complete strawman that I tried to nip but somehow became the context of the debate anyway.
My argument was referring to how P/P performs at the baseline. Vital Shot does mixed damage, which means it doesn’t optimize well, which is fine (many weapons are set up that way), it just needs to be stronger at the baseline – you have Unload for zerker and Sneak Attack/Caltrops for condi. Maybe Unload should shoot a little faster or have an Initiative cost reduction to support better burst on P/P with zerker builds. However, that absolutely should not happen in a vacuum, because P/P and P/D both have a more significant root issue that buffing Unload alone would only make worse.
P/P and P/D suffer in the utility and damage departments respectively (again, P/D is actually horribly weak on its own, its weakness is masked by how strong Caltrops are). This is the case with any build, at any level, in any game mode, and it’s mostly due to one thing – that Vital Shot has too slow of a rate of fire for its damage specs and underperforms in ALL situations with ALL builds. It’s critical that this be fixed before tuning is done on other traits and skills in either set. This would make P/P and P/D significantly more usable while leveling and/or with hybridized (including defensive) builds. It would also substantially improve your ability to optimize damage with P/D and slightly improve the general performance of P/P with optimized builds (by granting you better damage between Unloads).
That is by far the best solution to Pistol’s issues short of redesigning everything from the ground up, which I highly doubt is in the cards, or putting the burden of fixing it on traits, which is a bad design.
It’ s not ANY solution to Pistol’s issues. “Slighty improve the general performance of P/P with optimized builds” is like a 2% adjustment, because there will still be such a minimal amount of time using the skill anyway. Baseline baseline baseline baseline. It’s like the only word you know. Setting the baseline balances things out for people with NO damage stats. Right? Guess it’s a minor DPS buff for a completely non-DPS build. For any DPS build, your abilities need to scale.
The damage generated from attacks can scale well over 450% of the baseline damage with synergistic stats. If you have an ability that can never scale this well, then your damage can never be viable. If your damage isn’t viable with Vital Shot, you’re still forced to spend the crux of your time doing other things if you want to DPS. If you’re doing other things and actively trying not to use Vital Shot due to inferior scaling, then how is it a solution to ANY problems?
Baseline without scaling does not resolve issues for any DPS players. Period. Are you making the argument that there are no problems with the current design of P/P as it relates to DPS builds? All DPS focused builds would have the exact same utility issues you keep harping on. They would not go away. Do you not find that to be a problem?