Guild Wars 2

Most, if not all builds need trickery because of the 3 initiative boost. Some builds only have trickery because of the 3 initiative boost on its own. I believe it would make the class better if they made this baseline, or made you not have to trait for it. This problem is almost comparable to an elementalist’s Arcane line, but many builds do completely fine without the traitline. I tried non-trickery builds out on my thief (D/P S/D P/P etc) and it was completely horrendous. Everything was just simply harder, and I died very quickly. Especially in pvp, a thief with no initiative is a dead thief, and if i start with no initiative, aren’t I dead from the start? Some builds would be way better without trickery, some still enjoy it’s uses. Taking away the initiative boost wouldn’t kill the traitline, many of the traits are still great. I honestly don’t see how this could make the class overpowered or easy. This would make other builds better or not as terrible. I know the traitlines of most classes (Besides Mesmer and Warr) and I’m positive none of them need a certain traitline in EVERY ONE OF THEIR BUILDS. For example; for Daredevil, if anyone wants to try, they have to take Daredevil/Trickery/x if they want their build to be decent. That’s one traitline to choose out of 3, regardless of the fact that you might need 2 of those traitlines to make your build viable. I’ve seen people talk about having minor success but they always say it is subpar compared to trickery builds. I’m honestly curious to see how someone could present a strong argument opposing this.

Timiok.1048:

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Don’t know, haven’t tried staff, but I ran without trickery for 1,5 years (except when i was a condi thief for a short time) – the line is just too good to not take it. Because of 4 reasons: exta initiative, swiftness/might/fury, daze, condi remove. Edit: 5 reasons: extra damage per initative.
I would be rather sad if all of this was nerfed just because you want to take other lines ;)

The +3 max initiative from Trickery should absolutely be made baseline. The difference between 12 and 15 initiative is huge. Going without Trickery in SPvP is simply not an option from that alone, nevermind all the other goodies.

Jana.6831:

Timiok.1048:

snip

Don’t know, haven’t tried staff, but I ran without trickery for 1,5 years (except when i was a condi thief for a short time) – the line is just too good to not take it. Because of 4 reasons: exta initiative, swiftness/might/fury, daze, condi remove. Edit: 5 reasons: extra damage per initative.
I would be rather sad if all of this was nerfed just because you want to take other lines

The only thing out of all of those positives that would be taken away is the initiative bonus.

You guys are really spoilt
There’s “mandatory” lines for every weapon set but you can still play them without these lines – we did so before.

ETA: Even D/P which might need initative the most.

+99999999! I’m sick of taking this stupid traitline JUST for 3 initiative. It cripples any build I try to make.

I do agree it should be baseline, while i would still take trickery for steal traits i don’t see why this specific trait can’t be made baseline. It won’t make thieves OP, it would just open more options to them. It is pretty much same as clones on dodge.

Jana.6831:

You guys are really spoilt
There’s “mandatory” lines for every weapon set but you can still play them without these lines – we did so before.

ETA: Even D/P which might need initative the most.

It was ok pre patch, i do think thieves need some help right now, even with tiny things like extra ini. Have you seen what other classes got baseline and what we got? Yeah….

Here is my suggestion:

Give +3 initative baseline

Replace the trait with this:
Upon casting steal, leave behind a shadow of yourself. This shadow looks exactly like you, but does not move and cannot be interacted with. Duration 2 seconds.

Summary: The goal here is to avoid power creep. Trickery doesn’t get any stronger really, but it gets a fun way to trick some players. While all thieves now are not required to run trickery to get such a nice quality of life trait such as 3 extra initiative. Outside of the extra initiative, nothing else should be mad baseline.

Alternative: Move uncatchable trait into its (3 ini) location, and add back richochet.

please no shadow clone on steal….. it actually gives your position out if you run hidden thief and try to get away

Trickery has:
+3 ini
increased dmg
and adds to steal
2 ini gain
aoe fury-might-swiftness
aoe vigor-boon rip
daze-reuce cd

it’s our best trait line atm

zzBlurryzz.7492:

+99999999! I’m sick of taking this stupid traitline JUST for 3 initiative. It cripples any build I try to make.

You really take that traitline ONLY because of the 3 ini?!?
The traitline offers so much more.

Kleptomaniac: 2 ini on steal – was better when it gave 3 ini, but still…

Thrill of the Crime: fury/might/swiftness – great for raw boost (fury) or mobility (swiftness)…SUPPORT for your allies

Flanking Strike: Haste-access which can be traited as condiremove – higher burst

Uncatchable: Fun trait for condition-builds. In the right hands it can stack a lot of bleeds. NEVER put that one into a minor. In PvP it can be disastrous in revealing your position when you want to sneak away to cap a point!

Bountiful Theft: Steals 2 boons and gives Vigor on successful steal – one of the most important traits the thief has. Together with sleight of hand a stun because of stealing stability, allows some survivability when stealing boons like protection (ele!) or RIP to high might-stacks. Just a very good trait and strongly needed in some fights against certain classes/builds. I think they actually could reverse the boonsteal on larcenious (S/D 3) to steal 2 boons. Could finally punish again specs that produce boons like me drinking water on a hot day.

Trickster: A good trait , but imo far behind to bountiful theft in the utility. (maybe remove 2 condis?)

Lead Attacks: A very underrated minor imo. It can give up to 15% more RAW damage (CS now only adds crit-damage → not sure how much it is in raw damage at the end) so it works excellent with the +3 ini and Kleptomaniac.
And steal recharges faster. Well, was bound to the traitline before, now to that minor. You can steal more, enough said.

Sleight of Hand: Together with all the other traits that add to Steal it makes steal to our most important weapon fighting other classes, giving active defense or offense, mobility and counterplay (dazing important skills, ripping boons, both together, boons to yourself, more ini). At the most important thing… it has to hit the enemy to gain all the good stuff (except thrill of the crime and hidden thief). And yeah, it still bugs a lot of times – like that plant-things in the current event, I CAN´T steal it or my favourite… “To close to steal” lmao

But still, trickery is not only an important line cause of the +3 ini, it just gives so much more utility than CS or Acro.

It’s the same for every class at this point I think it’s intended.

There would some balancing issues that would need to be done here but I do agree, I feel like every build is forced into the trickery tree for its Utility. With Daredevil coming out that means if you want to play Daredevil you get one free trait line option.

No one is going to give up Trickery, and the staff will make that tree even more necessary with how initiative consumptive all of the abilities are.

An easy fix to this would give every trait line some sort of initiative regeneration based on what it specializes. An example would be something like gaining initiative for attacks that critically hit in the Critical Strikes tree.

Shadow Arts tree has Shadow Rejuvination, but that requires a Thief to be in stealth. If we want to open up different build varieties without giving a passive +3 intiative all around, give each tree a initiative regeneration bonus.

I don’t think giving Thieves +3 initiative just because is a good idea. Still need to require a skill cap and not promote spamming.

Edit: Putting initiative regen in multiple lines is not a good idea. Not without restrictions.

I’d prefer to see some of the utility be put into other lines. A lot of the goodies in trickery could be put into CS and Acro as a means of improving sub-par trait lines while reducing the “need” to take trickery due to how much utility and damage it brings. I’m not sure if I so much agree with making the +3 initiative baseline, but would rather see some initiative regen come from places other than defensive lines and Kleptomaniac.

Even if the +3 initiative was made base……I would probably still take trickery 95% of the time, the other traits too good to give up,

Yeah as someone else pointed out, every class has this. I can’t play without Vital Persistence, Warriors without Fasthands, (newly) Rangers without Beast Mastery, Ele without Arcana/Water.

Some stuff probably should be base line in many cases, but people have to realize, it’d have to come with actual nerfs to counteract the free power, and not only free power, but new synergies that further that power. Like if Vital Persistence for necro went baseline, which I hope it does, spectral mastery would pretty much have to be gutted or it’d be godly OP. Or warriors with Fasthands, no longer requiring Discipline would likely mean some other trait line synergy would need to be toned down that might be too strong with Fast Hands.

People can easily pick out what should be baseline, it’s knowing what to give up and be able to discuss self-nerfs that really tests a person’s objectivity.