Guild Wars 2

Isnt actually very good.

Ok so I had a discussion with a friend from my guild about this armor, and I thought I’d post some of it here. Basically just the basic concept behind Celestial Armor and why it sucks.

So its basically suppose to be for ‘balance’ to give offensive and defensive stats on the same piece of gear. Considering my gear set was made for that, I compared it to a full celestial set.

Soldiers/Berserkers gloves pants boots
2166 power
1706 precision
1556 toughness
1364 vitality
92 crit damage

Oils/Ghosts
1556 * (61/1024) = 92.69140625 (+)
1364 * (40/1024) = 53.28125 (=)
145.97265625 + 70 = 216
+ 1706 = 1922
52% crit rate

Celestial/Soldiers weapons
1991 power
1774 precision
1544 toughness
1346 vitality
105 crit damage

Oils/Ghosts
1544 * (61/1024) = 91.9765625 (+)
1346 * (40/1024) = 52.578125 (=)
144.5546875 + 70 = 215
+1774 = 1989
55% crit rate

Old:
(2166+250+(35*6)) * ((1 * .48) + ((1.5 + .92) * .52)) =
4565.0384 Damage
Celestial:
(1991+250+(35*6)) * ((1 * .45) + ((1.5 + 1.05) * .55)) =
4540.4775 Damage

The DPS is actually lower using full Celestial, and if you look at the stat distribution, Your Toughness and Vitality both go down using Celestial.

Even Hidden Killer Backstab damage is lower.
(2166+250+(35*6)) * (1.5 + .92) =
6354.92 Damage
Celestial:
(1991+250+(35*6)) * (1.5 + 1.05) =
6250.05 Damage

So ya, stick with the Soldiers/Berserkers mix I covered in one of my old threads, unless you want magic find. It’s actually a good set if you want magic find gear.

Mug, with accurate corrected precision
Fall, with accurate corrected precision

Screenshots attached to show precision values, 1914 is exactly 52%. Fall hits 1914, and Mug still wastes 1 stat sitting at 1915… but thats better than than the 17 wasted originally because this game fails at simple math.

That’s all celestial is good for. Explorer’s and Traveler’s does not offer the same bonuses.

You are wrong, celestial + zerker prvovide better damage becuse more critical damage = more damage

Big Tower.5423:

You are wrong, celestial + zerker prvovide better damage becuse more critical damage = more damage

lol… Please try and understand the discussion before typing, and learn to pay attention to the math posted that clearly shows Celestial and Berserkers does less damage and offers less survivability than Soldiers with Berserkers.

Here, I will help you and explain the math behind it. Maybe you can learn something from it. Here’s the problems for your average attack:
Old:
(2166+250+(35*6)) * ((1 * .48) + ((1.5 + .92) * .52)) =
4565.0384 Damage
Celestial:
(1991+250+(35*6)) * ((1 * .45) + ((1.5 + 1.05) * .55)) =
4540.4775 Damage

To break the numbers down into what they are, it’s…
(base power + bloodlust stacks + (35 * average might stacks)) * ((none-crit damage * .none-crit chance) + (base crit damage + .added crit damage) * .crit chance)) = average damage

These are the only parts of the damage equation that change between the 2 builds, so theyre the only parts of the problem we bother with. The skills you use, your weapon damage, the armor of your targets, etc, would be the same no matter what, so we simply eliminate those parts when comparing the damage, because they would affect both sets in the same way and the answers would still be the same.

And just to explain simply why you’re wrong. What if your crit rate is 5%? Even if you added 100 crit damage to that, it would be reduced by an effectiveness of 95%, since it only triggers on 5 out of 100 hits. Get it? Power/Crit Chance/Crit Damage all matter.

Sitting at like 35% Crit chance with 140 crit damage isnt as good as sitting at like 55% crit chance 90 crit damage.
.35 * 1.4 = 0.490
.55 * .9 = 0.495
Get it?
I really hope you do, it would help clean up the forums.

Switch Berserker pieces to Valkyrie and see what you get. IMHO, I’d take Vitality over Precision and that’s the only difference between the two — then you don’t have to Trait for Practiced Tolerance and pick up something else.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Switch Berserker pieces to Valkyrie and see what you get. IMHO, I’d take Vitality over Precision and that’s the only difference between the two — then you don’t have to Trait for Practiced Tolerance and pick up something else.

The problem is that if you switch the weapons or trinkets in either set, you might as well change them in both, and then the Celestial set will still lose damage and survivability compared to Soldiers/Berserkers mixed.

wish.1027:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Switch Berserker pieces to Valkyrie and see what you get. IMHO, I’d take Vitality over Precision and that’s the only difference between the two — then you don’t have to Trait for Practiced Tolerance and pick up something else.

The problem is that if you switch the weapons or trinkets in either set, you might as well change them in both, and then the Celestial set will still lose damage and survivability compared to Soldiers/Berserkers mixed.

Sorry, I was actually only talking about the Armor Pieces. Forgot the word “armor” before the “pieces”.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

wish.1027:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Switch Berserker pieces to Valkyrie and see what you get. IMHO, I’d take Vitality over Precision and that’s the only difference between the two — then you don’t have to Trait for Practiced Tolerance and pick up something else.

The problem is that if you switch the weapons or trinkets in either set, you might as well change them in both, and then the Celestial set will still lose damage and survivability compared to Soldiers/Berserkers mixed.

Sorry, I was actually only talking about the Armor Pieces. Forgot the word “armor” before the “pieces”.

Both Sets use Soldiers weapons, All B/B ascended trinkets except 1 B/V earring, 6x Divinity Runes,10/30/30/0/0 for traits w/ practiced tolerance in both. The only difference is one uses Celestial Hat/Shoulders/Body/Gloves/Pants/Shoes and one uses Soldiers Hat/Body/Legs Berserker Shoulders/Gloves/Boots. What do you want changed?

Maybe celestial is okay for hybrid builds that use a good mix of power and condition damage? That throws in one more state. Healing, too… although he scales like kitten with healing power in most builds.

This is not a definitive statement… more if a hypothesis worth testing. Shortbow comes to mind as a weapon that benefits from both power and condition damage. Not many pure Shortbow builds out there, though. P/D gets some power damage from skills 3 and 5. However, it seems pretty sketchy given all the work it would take to craft the items.

wish.1027:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

wish.1027:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Switch Berserker pieces to Valkyrie and see what you get. IMHO, I’d take Vitality over Precision and that’s the only difference between the two — then you don’t have to Trait for Practiced Tolerance and pick up something else.

The problem is that if you switch the weapons or trinkets in either set, you might as well change them in both, and then the Celestial set will still lose damage and survivability compared to Soldiers/Berserkers mixed.

Sorry, I was actually only talking about the Armor Pieces. Forgot the word “armor” before the “pieces”.

Both Sets use Soldiers weapons, All B/B ascended trinkets except 1 B/V earring, 6x Divinity Runes,10/30/30/0/0 for traits w/ practiced tolerance in both. The only difference is one uses Celestial Hat/Shoulders/Body/Gloves/Pants/Shoes and one uses Soldiers Hat/Body/Legs Berserker Shoulders/Gloves/Boots. What do you want changed?

Ok let me try again, I’ll be more specific this time.

In your non-Celestial set, you have a combination of Soldier/‘serker armor pieces to maximize your DPS output with survivability. If you compare full Soldier or full ’serker to full Celestial, you’ll see that Celestial is way better than either one.

Here’s what I want you to try. You see where you place your ’serker pieces in your build (specifically shoulder, gloves and boots) — now do the same with the Celestial build, but instead, replace the shoulder, gloves and boots with Valkyries.

Then change Practiced Tolerance to either Signet of Power or Furious Retal.

Then compare the DPS.

Celestial/Soldiers weapons/Valk Shoulders Gloves Shoes
1991 – 15 – 15 – 15 + 34 + 34 + 34 = 2048 power
1774 – 15 – 15 – 15 = 1729 precision
1544 – 15 – 15 – 15 = 1499 toughness
1346 – 15 – 15 – 15 + 24 + 24 + 24 = 1373 vitality
105 crit damage

Oils/Ghosts
1499 * (61/1024) = 89.2958984375 (+)
1373 * (40/1024) = 53.6328125 (=)
142.928710938 + 70 + 1729 =
1941 precision
53% crit chance

(2048+250+(35*6)) * ((1 * .47) + ((1.5 + 1.05) * .53)) = 4568.322

Oh man, that wins by
4568.322/4565.0384= 1.00071929296
0.072% Damage.

You lose EHP though. The Toughness is down in this setup. If you were gonna do this you could just swap the soldiers body for valk in the other set and end up with about the same toughness/vitality and…
Old w/Valk body:
(2166+250+(35*6)) * ((1 * .48) + ((1.5 + .97) * .52)) =
4633.3144
More Damage.

4633.3144/4565.0384=1.01495628164

1.5% more damage, which is way better than 0.072%
Celestial is still bad unless you want magic find.

EDIT: Im down if you want to try something else though.

EDIT 2:

Then change Practiced Tolerance to either Signet of Power or Furious Retal.

You cant change traits. If you change traits in one build you can change them in the other. We’re only comparing differences in gear. Unless you can come up with a valid reason for changing traits in one and not the other. In your proposed set, the vitality between the two is roughly the same, so theres no reason you would dump the p > v trait in one and not the other.

how about this set up?

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fYEQRAoY8YlUmiO3ey5E/5Ey2jdqCJKuHGVS1UdFiKA-jEzA4rBRTWCNRAiKAk8UWzeCiVtioxqrxUuCRa3UbvFkN4KrCBUeBA-w

Phantom.8130:

how about this set up?

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fYEQRAoY8YlUmiO3ey5E/5Ey2jdqCJKuHGVS1UdFiKA-jEzA4rBRTWCNRAiKAk8UWzeCiVtioxqrxUuCRa3UbvFkN4KrCBUeBA-w

Hey, I made that build.
Also, it uses the same armor as the one we’re comparing, so the results will be the same. Well, Fall has a bit more crit damage and a bit less power than Mug, so Celestial will be further behind Fall than Mug as Celestial reduces power for more crit damage in an effot to increase damage, which is what the Fall set does compared to Mug, and the more of something you have the less useful adding more of it will be.

wish.1027:

Phantom.8130:

how about this set up?

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fYEQRAoY8YlUmiO3ey5E/5Ey2jdqCJKuHGVS1UdFiKA-jEzA4rBRTWCNRAiKAk8UWzeCiVtioxqrxUuCRa3UbvFkN4KrCBUeBA-w

Hey, I made that build.
Also, it uses the same armor as the one we’re comparing, so the results will be the same. Well, Fall has a bit more crit damage and a bit less power than Mug, so Celestial will be further behind Fall than Mug as Celestial reduces power for more crit damage in an effot to increase damage, which is what the Fall set does compared to Mug, and the more of something you have the less useful adding more of it will be.

EDIT: ack. the changes i made to it didn’t save. one sec…..

EDIT 2: try this one instead: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYEQRAoY8YlUmiO3ey5E/5Ey2jdqCJKuHGVS1UdFiKA-j0zAYrAiviMBBksATECUyPiJPl1EIQVrIasqaEtNmyNwq4oavTkJfY1SBExYA-w

the result is higher power, much higher crit damage, lower HP but that’s balanced out by higher toughness. it has slightly higher healing power, condition damage, and magic find as well.

@Wish, how would the stats look like without any ascended equip?

Phantom.8130:
(2058 + 250 + (35 * 6)) * ((1 * .55) + ((1.5 + 1.2) * .45)) =
4444.27 Damage

Fall:
(2056+250+(35*6)) * ((1 * .48) + ((1.5 + 1.02) * .52)) =
4504.6464 Damage

While I can understand the desire to want to use knights/cavalier, it pretty much can never win. Keep in mind with these damage comparisons too that the damage from omnomberry pies are not added to the Fall calculation, but the food in your build is, and it still loses. Cavalier/Knights should only be used with pretty much all Cav/Knights or its just a waste of space.

Excalibur.9748:

@Wish, how would the stats look like without any ascended equip?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Post-Your-Build-Thread/page/3#post2426220

I posted the exotic version there, and theres links to stuff if you want to read, if not:
http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.0|8.1g.h2.8.1g.h14|5.1g.h2|1c.a1.1g.a7.1p.a1.1g.a7.1c.a1.1g.a7|1g.67.1c.67.1c.67.1g.67.1g.67.1c.67|0.u36c.u65b.a1.0|54.8|57.5c.5b.5h.0|e

wish.1027:

Phantom.8130:
(2058 + 250 + (35 * 6)) * ((1 * .55) + ((1.5 + 1.2) * .45)) =
4444.27 Damage

Fall:
(2056+250+(35*6)) * ((1 * .48) + ((1.5 + 1.02) * .52)) =
4504.6464 Damage

While I can understand the desire to want to use knights/cavalier, it pretty much can never win. Keep in mind with these damage comparisons too that the damage from omnomberry pies are not added to the Fall calculation, but the food in your build is, and it still loses. Cavalier/Knights should only be used with pretty much all Cav/Knights or its just a waste of space.

you didn’t factor in the extra 5% crit chance from the sigil on the dagger, which would change it from .45 to .5 which brings the total up to 4795.6

Phantom.8130:

wish.1027:

Phantom.8130:
(2058 + 250 + (35 * 6)) * ((1 * .55) + ((1.5 + 1.2) * .45)) =
4444.27 Damage

Fall:
(2056+250+(35*6)) * ((1 * .48) + ((1.5 + 1.02) * .52)) =
4504.6464 Damage

While I can understand the desire to want to use knights/cavalier, it pretty much can never win. Keep in mind with these damage comparisons too that the damage from omnomberry pies are not added to the Fall calculation, but the food in your build is, and it still loses. Cavalier/Knights should only be used with pretty much all Cav/Knights or its just a waste of space.

you didn’t factor in the extra 5% crit chance from the sigil on the dagger, which would change it from .45 to .5 which brings the math up to 4795.6

I didnt notice it, but the 5% damage from force is better than 5% crit chance from accuracy. You’d have to do:
Phantom.8130 Accuracy:
(2058 + 250 + (35 * 6)) * ((1 * .5) + ((1.5 + 1.2) * .5)) =
4658.3
Phantom.8130 Force:
(2058 + 250 + (35 * 6)) * ((1 * .55) + ((1.5 + 1.2) * .45)) * 1.05 =
4666.4835
Fall:
(2056+250+(35*6)) * ((1 * .48) + ((1.5 + 1.02) * .52)) * 1.05 =
4729.87872

Edit: You missed dropping .55 to .5, thats why your number is different.

GW2buildcraft kinda sucks compared to en.gw2skills but thanks anyways.

wish.1027:

Phantom.8130:

wish.1027:

Phantom.8130:
(2058 + 250 + (35 * 6)) * ((1 * .55) + ((1.5 + 1.2) * .45)) =
4444.27 Damage

Fall:
(2056+250+(35*6)) * ((1 * .48) + ((1.5 + 1.02) * .52)) =
4504.6464 Damage

While I can understand the desire to want to use knights/cavalier, it pretty much can never win. Keep in mind with these damage comparisons too that the damage from omnomberry pies are not added to the Fall calculation, but the food in your build is, and it still loses. Cavalier/Knights should only be used with pretty much all Cav/Knights or its just a waste of space.

you didn’t factor in the extra 5% crit chance from the sigil on the dagger, which would change it from .45 to .5 which brings the math up to 4795.6

I didnt notice it, but the 5% damage from force is better than 5% crit chance from accuracy. You’d have to do:
Phantom.8130 Accuracy:
(2058 + 250 + (35 * 6)) * ((1 * .5) + ((1.5 + 1.2) * .5)) =
4658.3
Phantom.8130 Force:
(2058 + 250 + (35 * 6)) * ((1 * .55) + ((1.5 + 1.2) * .45)) * 1.05 =
4666.4835
Fall:
(2056+250+(35*6)) * ((1 * .48) + ((1.5 + 1.02) * .52)) * 1.05 =
4729.87872

another thing is that you don’t have the sigil of bloodlust on your builds. which means you have remove the 250 from the first part of the equation since that’s from an assumed 25 bloodlust stacks. which lowers your total to 4321.76052.

Excalibur.9748:

GW2buildcraft kinda sucks compared to en.gw2skills but thanks anyways.

It does suck since its not updated and stuff, but it lists this:
Effective Power
Effective Health (EHP)
Damage Reduction
I havent seen another editor do that. Sure its a bit wrong and off, but its good for fast comparisons.

Phantom.8130:

another thing is that you don’t have the sigil of bloodlust on your builds. which means you have remove the 250 from the first part of the equation since that’s from an assumed 25 bloodlust stacks. which lowers your total to 4321.76052.

You’re really reaching now. I just assume everyone knows to stack Bloodlust then swap it off. So when posting builds the correct thing to do is put what you would swap off into. But hey, if you want to talk about it, I have 6 Superior Sigils of Bloodlust on my mule Thief, how about you?

wish.1027:

Excalibur.9748:

GW2buildcraft kinda sucks compared to en.gw2skills but thanks anyways.

It does suck since its not updated and stuff, but it lists this:
Effective Power
Effective Health (EHP)
Damage Reduction
I havent seen another editor do that. Sure its a bit wrong and off, but its good for fast comparisons.

Phantom.8130:

another thing is that you don’t have the sigil of bloodlust on your builds. which means you have remove the 250 from the first part of the equation since that’s from an assumed 25 bloodlust stacks. which lowers your total to 4321.76052.

You’re really reaching now. I just assume everyone knows to stack Bloodlust then swap it off. So when posting builds the correct thing to do is put what you would swap off into. But hey, if you want to talk about it, I have 6 Superior Sigils of Bloodlust on my mule Thief, how about you?

alright. then factor out the sigil of bloodlust in my build, and replace it with the +5% damage signet instead.

Phantom.8130:

alright. then factor out the sigil of bloodlust in my build, and replace it with the +5% damage signet instead.

I posted both to show you Acc is worse than Force. And this is just for base attacks, not counting HK BS, if you use HK.

EDIT, originally I didnt factor Force into any build, I assumed everyone was using it, and if something carries over to all builds, theres no reason to include it when calculating differences. Thats why we’re not talking about skill use, or target armor or anything else either, theres no need.

wish.1027:

Phantom.8130 Accuracy:
(2058 + 250 + (35 * 6)) * ((1 * .5) + ((1.5 + 1.2) * .5)) =
4658.3
Phantom.8130 Force:
(2058 + 250 + (35 * 6)) * ((1 * .55) + ((1.5 + 1.2) * .45)) * 1.05 =
4666.4835
Fall:
(2056+250+(35*6)) * ((1 * .48) + ((1.5 + 1.02) * .52)) * 1.05 =
4729.87872

EDIT 2:
And honestly I wouldnt be surprised if its * (1074/1024) instead of * 1.05 either, because I said so.

Force #2
(2058 + 250 + (35 * 6)) * ((1 * .55) + ((1.5 + 1.2) * .45)) * (1074/1024) =
4661.27537109

wish.1027:

Phantom.8130:

alright. then factor out the sigil of bloodlust in my build, and replace it with the +5% damage signet instead.

I posted both to show you Acc is worse than Force. And this is just for base attacks, not counting HK BS, if you use HK.

wish.1027:

Phantom.8130 Accuracy:
(2058 + 250 + (35 * 6)) * ((1 * .5) + ((1.5 + 1.2) * .5)) =
4658.3
Phantom.8130 Force:
(2058 + 250 + (35 * 6)) * ((1 * .55) + ((1.5 + 1.2) * .45)) * 1.05 =
4666.4835
Fall:
(2056+250+(35*6)) * ((1 * .48) + ((1.5 + 1.02) * .52)) * 1.05 =
4729.87872

no. i mean instead of a sigil of accuracy and a sigil of bloodlust, using a sigil of accuracy and a sigil of force.

Phantom.8130:

no. i mean instead of a sigil of accuracy and a sigil of bloodlust, using a sigil of accuracy and a sigil of force.

Thats silly because Fire and Air do more damage than Force or Accuracy since your crit chance is so high.

D/D = force/air
S/D = acc/fire
main hand bloodlust runes til you hit 25.

going on school on the math and breaking it down step by step comes out to this:
(2058 +250 + 210) * (.5 +(2.7 *.5)) * 1.05 = x
2518 * (.5 +1.35) * 1.05 = x
2518 * 1.85 * 1.05 = x
4891.215 = x

which is well above the 4729.87872. with no chance for air/fire to bug out and cause revealed on CnD.

Phantom.8130:

going on school on the math and breaking it down step by step comes out to this:
(2058 +250 + 210) * (.5 +(2.7 *.5)) * 1.05 = x
2518 * (.5 +1.35) * 1.05 = x
2518 * 1.85 * 1.05 = x
4891.215 = x

which is well above the 4729.87872. with no chance for air/fire to bug out and cause revealed on CnD.

But what youre forgetting is that if you dont like Fire/Air than you could use Acc/Force with the Fall set too…

(2056+250+(35*6)) * ((1 * .43) + ((1.5 + 1.02) * .57)) * 1.05 =
4930.65552

So you’re still behind where you could be.

IMPORTANT EDIT:::
Also, the life steal damage from omnom pies still arent added to Falls displayed damage while your food is. So lets switch that up and give you a better idea of what youre actually missing out on. We’ll use butternut curry squash soup, 100 precision, 10% crit damage.

My pies were 70 precision so Im at +30. Since my precision is exactly 52% at 1914, that means I have 9 wasted precision now, so I can swap b/v trinket to b/b, gain 18 precision, then remove 1 precision infusion for 1 power infusion, and gain 2% crit chance, 5 power, and 10% crit damage.

(2061+250+(35*6)) * ((1 * .41) + ((1.5 + 1.12) * .59)) * 1.05 =
5177.10039

This is more like what you’re really competing with.
5177/4891=1.05847474954
My set is 6% damage above yours using weak food that I have proven is worse from a DPS standpoint than what I use now. But proving lifesteal food effectiveness would take a long time, so Im not going to do it again.

wish.1027:

Phantom.8130:

going on school on the math and breaking it down step by step comes out to this:
(2058 +250 + 210) * (.5 +(2.7 *.5)) * 1.05 = x
2518 * (.5 +1.35) * 1.05 = x
2518 * 1.85 * 1.05 = x
4891.215 = x

which is well above the 4729.87872. with no chance for air/fire to bug out and cause revealed on CnD.

But what youre forgetting is that if you dont like Fire/Air than you could use Acc/Force with the Fall set too…

(2056+250+(35*6)) * ((1 * .43) + ((1.5 + 1.02) * .57)) * 1.05 =
4930.65552

So you’re still behind where you could be.

looks like you’re right about the damage by about 40 points. there’s a chance the added condition damage from the poison from lotus strike might be able to make up for that, but i’m not all too worried about it.

Phantom.8130:

wish.1027:

Phantom.8130:

going on school on the math and breaking it down step by step comes out to this:
(2058 +250 + 210) * (.5 +(2.7 *.5)) * 1.05 = x
2518 * (.5 +1.35) * 1.05 = x
2518 * 1.85 * 1.05 = x
4891.215 = x

which is well above the 4729.87872. with no chance for air/fire to bug out and cause revealed on CnD.

But what youre forgetting is that if you dont like Fire/Air than you could use Acc/Force with the Fall set too…

(2056+250+(35*6)) * ((1 * .43) + ((1.5 + 1.02) * .57)) * 1.05 =
4930.65552

So you’re still behind where you could be.

looks like you’re right about the damage by about 40 points. there’s a chance the added condition damage from the poison from lotus strike might be able to make up for that, but i’m not all too worried about it.

If you have power traits Im sure the steal poison and lotus strike would make up the 1%, just lotus strike I dunno, but check the edit I made on my previous post about food effects. The condition damage wont make that up.

I think celestial for thieves is probably not a great idea except for hybrid builds, like p/d or d/d that use death blossom. Other professions, like mesmer, really use all stats, and so it makes sense for them.

how does regen scale between builds? seems like that would affect survivability a good amount in most builds…also health steal from foods, signet of malice, etc.

bobross.5034:

how does regen scale between builds? seems like that would affect survivability a good amount in most builds…also health steal from foods, signet of malice, etc.

one other consideration… things like bloodlust and might will affect dps differently depending on crit dmg/crit chance. If I was reading correctly, the issue with celestial is lower power. However if power gets higher in both sets due to those extra effects, each point of power should affect dps more in the celestial set. At a certain level of bloodlust/might/food/trait based power (in both sets) the celestial set should surpass the other set in terms of dps.

Thanks Wish, was waiting to see what you would make of the new stat armour.

bobross.5034:

I think celestial for thieves is probably not a great idea except for hybrid builds, like p/d or d/d that use death blossom. Other professions, like mesmer, really use all stats, and so it makes sense for them.

If you cant actively make use out of the 6 good stats on Celestial gear, it won’t win. Power, Precision, Toughness, Vitality, Condition Damage, Crit Damage all need to have a place in your build for this armor to get anywhere. Once any one of these things is obsoleted you’re better off mixing and matching other gear, regardless of class. Unless you want magic find, this is an awesome magic find set.

bobross.5034:

how does regen scale between builds? seems like that would affect survivability a good amount in most builds…also health steal from foods, signet of malice, etc.

Well, first lets determine how much healing power we gain.
15 + 15 + 15 + 45 + 30 + 20 = 140

12.5% of healing skill is applied to regens hp regen every time it ticks. So with 440 healing power instead of 300 youd get
130 + (0.125 * 300) = 167 HP per second
130 + (0.125 * 440) = 185 HP per second
If it lasts 4 seconds (Hide in Shadows duration), you’re looking at
(185 – 167) * 4 = 72
An extra 72 HP from the regen, and the heal itself would add an extra 140, since healing is taken 1 for 1. So that would add 212 HP total to your #6.

For Shadow Rejuvenation, its 10% of healing power + 293 according to the wiki, but I dont think I trust this as I couldnt find a second source saying anything.
293 + (.1 * 300) = 323 HP per second.
293 + (.1 * 440) = 337 HP per second.
In a 3 second stealth you would gain an extra
(337 – 323) * 3 = 42
In 4 seconds youd gain 56 HP

Doesnt seem like a good trade off for the damage you give up, since I measure this sort of thing as “created differences between HP for you and your opponent.” And even something as small as 20 power or 21 precision or 2% crit damage would create a bigger swing in HP between you and your opponent every 30 seconds than 140 healing power.

bobross.5034:

one other consideration… things like bloodlust and might will affect dps differently depending on crit dmg/crit chance. If I was reading correctly, the issue with celestial is lower power. However if power gets higher in both sets due to those extra effects, each point of power should affect dps more in the celestial set. At a certain level of bloodlust/might/food/trait based power (in both sets) the celestial set should surpass the other set in terms of dps.

You’re absolutely correct. The more Power you have, the less useful adding more power is compared to adding the other damage stats.

If you look at my posted math, I assume full bloodlust and 6 stacks of might, as thats typically what you run around with if you have 25 Shadow Arts and stealth every 3-4 seconds. If you want to add Stones instead of Oils to the Celestial builds… I could type out what I think will happen, but I will just type out what happens instead since you made a good observation.

1991 power
1774 precision
1544 toughness
1346 vitality
105 crit damage

Stones/Ghosts
1544 * (61/1024) = 91.9765625 (+)
1346 * (40/1024) = 52.578125 (=)
144.5546875 + 1991 = 2136
70 +1774 = 1844, 48% Crit Chance

Old:
(2166+250+(35*6)) * ((1 * .48) + ((1.5 + .92) * .52)) =
4565.0384 Damage
Celestial Oils:
(1991+250+(35*6)) * ((1 * .45) + ((1.5 + 1.05) * .55)) =
4540.4775 Damage
Celestial Stones:
(2136 + 250 + (35 * 6)) * ((1 * .52) + ((1.5 + 1.05) * .48)) =
4527.424 Damage

Oils are better.

Ok without changing the traits, try this one.

Head – Celestial
Shoulder – Celestial
Chest – Soldier
Legs – Soldier
Gloves – Celestial
Boots – Celestial

This set loses 82 power, but has more Toughness, Vitality, Condition Dmg, Heal Pwr, and Crit Damage (+12% MF) — not a whole lot but marginally better.

Curious to see your numbers using this set.

Problem with celestial is gonna be the low power.

Do you think a Celestial gear set could work in a Unicorn / Death Blossom & Signet of Malice style build? You’d actually be making use of the condition damage, healing power and toughness that way, and you still have access to backstab & heartseeker for pure direct damage situations.

All around though, I’m worried celestial’s only going to be good for a MF set.

Softspoken.2410:

All around though, I’m worried celestial’s only going to be good for a MF set.

Thats what I expect honestly. I dont do the condition thing, so I cant say for sure, but I do know that the only way Celestial has any sort of chance to be useful outside MF, is if you make use of all 6 good stats.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Ok without changing the traits, try this one.

Head – Celestial
Shoulder – Celestial
Chest – Soldier
Legs – Soldier
Gloves – Celestial
Boots – Celestial

This set loses 82 power, but has more Toughness, Vitality, Condition Dmg, Heal Pwr, and Crit Damage (+12% MF) — not a whole lot but marginally better.

Curious to see your numbers using this set.

The problem here is that if you just swap your berserker gloves/boots/shoulders in the original set to soldiers to match the survivability of what you posted, you’ll end up with more EHP/DR/Damage.

matthen.5024:

Maybe celestial is okay for hybrid builds that use a good mix of power and condition damage? That throws in one more state. Healing, too… although he scales like kitten with healing power in most builds.

This is not a definitive statement… more if a hypothesis worth testing. Shortbow comes to mind as a weapon that benefits from both power and condition damage. Not many pure Shortbow builds out there, though. P/D gets some power damage from skills 3 and 5. However, it seems pretty sketchy given all the work it would take to craft the items.

I tried it in actual practice by taking the Celestial amulet and runes in the Mists, and tried making a build the utilizes direct damage, condition damage and healing.
It all sucked. Hard.
Direct damage was garbage, condition damage was garbage, healing was garbage, defense was garbage… basically, I couldn’t do anything. At one point I totally got my butt handed to me by some moronic Death Blossom spammer. And I had D/D with Shadow’s Embrace for constant Bleed cleansing.
My Bleeds, as one example, were ticking for only around 66.

gotta test your builds on the test dummies at least. i tried using celestial amulet too and it was not very good!

wish.1027:

Softspoken.2410:

All around though, I’m worried celestial’s only going to be good for a MF set.

Thats what I expect honestly. I dont do the condition thing, so I cant say for sure, but I do know that the only way Celestial has any sort of chance to be useful outside MF, is if you make use of all 6 good stats.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Ok without changing the traits, try this one.

Head – Celestial
Shoulder – Celestial
Chest – Soldier
Legs – Soldier
Gloves – Celestial
Boots – Celestial

This set loses 82 power, but has more Toughness, Vitality, Condition Dmg, Heal Pwr, and Crit Damage (+12% MF) — not a whole lot but marginally better.

Curious to see your numbers using this set.

The problem here is that if you just swap your berserker gloves/boots/shoulders in the original set to soldiers to match the survivability of what you posted, you’ll end up with more EHP/DR/Damage.

Well then, I’m convince that …

Softspoken.2410:

All around though, I’m worried celestial’s only going to be good for a MF set.

…yup, just an MF set. Probably designed for Fractals or general PvE stuff.