Guild Wars 2

Steal life when you deliver a critical hit. This effect can only trigger once every 2 seconds.
Damage: 182
Healing: 426 (0.1 * Healing Power)

Slowed Pulse (Shadow Arts Trait.)
Vampiric Precision’s healing component heals for 50% more.
Grant 10 seconds of regeneration if you have 3 or more stacks of bleeding. This effect can trigger once every 20 seconds.

This gives the thief good sustain and good burst damage. It also matches the tree’s theme pretty well since its the healing tree.

Wtf does that have to do with Shadow arts, and why would you force a Critical based trait on the toughness lines minor traits?

ensoriki.5789:

Wtf does that have to do with Shadow arts, and why would you force a Critical based trait on the toughness lines minor traits?

We have traits that give us 100% critical chance when we stealth and this is the stealth tree, and it allows us to build more hybrid builds like the Guardian has. They have “Gain 5 seconds of vigor when they critical hit” in there vitality tree.

It goes very well with this build: http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mck9waxx9Mc9Mb

Since its a minor trait, it can also be used for other builds besides stealth ones as well, giving the thief a lot more synergy.

It would be a good trait for both stealth builds and critical builds.

Your basing a shadow arts 5 pt trait off a 30 pt grandmaster?
Not really, since you’re forcing crits.

ensoriki.5789:

Your basing a shadow arts 5 pt trait off a 30 pt grandmaster?
Not really, since you’re forcing crits.

? ? ?

“Forcing Crits?” Do you know what class this is. This is the Thief class. Almost all of our best traits are critical chance based. We have so many ways to gain critical chance its not funny. A lot more then a guardian does, who would have a similar type of trait.

The Developers don’t want all the similar traits in the same trees, they want power spread out so people make unique builds.

Maybe they should remove “Sundering Strikes.” from our power tree, because its forcing criticals! :>

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vigorous_Precision (I mainly base this trait off this one here. )

Can I too ask for something that would go well into my build please ?

Anvi.1802:

Can I too ask for something that would go well into my build please ?

Well, can ya link your build?

Umm… I’m not going to touch the really high values you’ve put (In comparison to Necromancers Vampiric Precision which is a major trait rather than a minor that does 33 damage/healing)

Life stealing on crit, doesn’t really fit with with the Shadow Arts trait line (Then again neither does Leeching Venoms, Power Shots and Venomous Aura) I’d be much happier with another copy of the “5 seconds of vigor on crit (5 second cooldown)” that Elementalists, Guardians and Mesmers get.

Or heck, even a “When using a skill that stealths you, gain X seconds of Vigor” it’d fit more with the trait line, and give a supposedly slippery class the ability to have access to some decent time of Vigor (The issue it may get is people getting perma-vigor via abusing Smoke Fields depending on the duration)

Taril.8619:

Umm… I’m not going to touch the really high values you’ve put (In comparison to Necromancers Vampiric Precision which is a major trait rather than a minor that does 33 damage/healing)

Life stealing on crit, doesn’t really fit with with the Shadow Arts trait line (Then again neither does Leeching Venoms, Power Shots and Venomous Aura) I’d be much happier with another copy of the “5 seconds of vigor on crit (5 second cooldown)” that Elementalists, Guardians and Mesmers get.

Or heck, even a “When using a skill that stealths you, gain X seconds of Vigor” it’d fit more with the trait line, and give a supposedly slippery class the ability to have access to some decent time of Vigor (The issue it may get is people getting perma-vigor via abusing Smoke Fields depending on the duration)

There isn’t an internal cool-down on that ability. Also they can get +110 every time a minion hits as well, which can add up to 500-600 HPS from one trait. Also necromancers have more condition removal and access to CC and 8k more life.

However, I would as well. I think 5 seconds of Vigor however would be too much for thief.

Daecollo.9578:

There isn’t an internal cool-down on that ability.

But as you said, Thieves get much more ways to get critical hits than Necromancers.

Also considering the fastest attack speed weapon they have (Dagger mainhand) will only be able to hit 4 times per ~2 seconds which means that it will only be able to proc twice per second (Also requires them to get critical hits with all attacks, even then with the 50% trait (54 health per proc) that’s still only 108 DPS and HPS while these numbers would only need a thief to crit every 2 seconds to gain 91 DPS and 213 HPS (With the trait it’d be 91 DPS and 319.5 HPS)

Also they can get +110 every time a minion hits as well, which can add up to 500-600 HPS from one trait.

Also note, Vampiric Master is a Master Major trait not a 5 point trait, it also requires use of all 3 utility slots, the heal skill and elite skill to achieve maximum effectiveness and can have the minions killed off to stop the healing.

Daecollo.9578:

However, I would as well. I think 5 seconds of Vigor however would be too much for thief.

Well they currently have access to 8 seconds of Vigor on healing and 15 seconds of AoE Vigor on steal.

5 seconds per 5 seconds shouldn’t be too horrible, especially since other professions (Whom have actual ways of reducing damage rather than being based purely around avoiding it) get it and also Rangers have a 5 point trait that gives a permanent 50% endurance regeneration (Half the effectiveness of Vigor for 5 points in one of their best trait lines)

Taril.8619:

Daecollo.9578:

There isn’t an internal cool-down on that ability.

But as you said, Thieves get much more ways to get critical hits than Necromancers.

Also considering the fastest attack speed weapon they have (Dagger mainhand) will only be able to hit 4 times per ~2 seconds which means that it will only be able to proc twice per second (Also requires them to get critical hits with all attacks, even then with the 50% trait (54 health per proc) that’s still only 108 DPS and HPS while these numbers would only need a thief to crit every 2 seconds to gain 91 DPS and 213 HPS (With the trait it’d be 91 DPS and 319.5 HPS)

Also they can get +110 every time a minion hits as well, which can add up to 500-600 HPS from one trait.

Also note, Vampiric Master is a Master Major trait not a 5 point trait, it also requires use of all 3 utility slots, the heal skill and elite skill to achieve maximum effectiveness and can have the minions killed off to stop the healing.

Your comparing two different classes. Necromancers have almost double the health of the thief and much more condition removal.

I am so glad, you are not a dev.
I mean, seriously. Putting a critical based trait as a minor into a toughness line?
And your reasoning for doing this is a Grandmaster major trait from ANOTHER TRAITLINE?
I don’t know what you smoke, but I want some of it.

2-3 seconds vigor on stealth sounds pretty decent, actually. Give it a 6-10 seconds ICD, perhaps, so shadow refuge and other ways of chained stealth don’t screw it too much.

Leave it as a “selfish” trait. YOU gain vigor, when YOU gain stealth. It’s a 5-pointer after all. No “give allies vigor when you stealth them”. BUT you’d also gain vigor if someone else stealths you, which is perfectly fine with me.

Daecollo.9578:

Your comparing two different classes.

I’m also comparing similar traits, just like you’re basing your suggestion on another classes trait.

Necromancers have almost double the health of the thief and much more condition removal.

While Necromancers have 80% more base health than a thief (18k base compared to 10k base) they also have limited dodging and evasion capabilities, meaning they’re forced to take damage and try to heal up. They also have an entire trait line that’s based around life stealing, having another class out do the majority of their line with no less than a 5 point trait would be unacceptable.

On the topic of condition removal:

Necromancer:

• Consume Conditions – 25 second cooldown
• Well of Power – 60 second cooldown
• Deathly Swarm – 18 second cooldown
• Putrid Mark – 25 second cooldown
• Plague Signet – 60 second cooldown
• Spiteful Removal – 10 second cooldown (Requires a kill)
• Fetid Consumtion – 10 second cooldown per minion (Will transfer it to a minion rather than dissipating it)

Thief:

• Shadow Step – 50 second cooldown
• Roll for Initiative – 60 second cooldown
• Signet of Agility – 30 second cooldown
• Infiltrator’s Strike – No cooldown (Costs 5 initiative in total)
• Hide in Shadows – 30 second cooldown
• Withdraw – 15 second cooldown
• Shadow’s Embrace – No cooldown (1 removed upon stealthing and 1 removed every 3 seconds you remain stealthed)
• Fleet of Foot – 10 second cooldown

I just had a very evil idea…
Something like “whenever you attack out of stealth, your attacks cause poison for 3 seconds”.
Once you think about the possible applications, you know, how great it is.
And even if it’s only to prevent healing during a backstab combo or to cover up the bleeds from a pistol sneak attack.

I vote for “revealed immunity” – 2-5 sec (not more than that).

lLobo.7960:

I vote for “revealed immunity” – 2-5 sec (not more than that).

then you just stand next to him and chain CnD?
like whackwhackwhackwhack, 15 sec invis npnp.

naphack.9346:

lLobo.7960:

I vote for “revealed immunity” – 2-5 sec (not more than that).

then you just stand next to him and chain CnD?
like whackwhackwhackwhack, 15 sec invis npnp.

Depends on how you make the buff works…
If it stays for 5secs but only gives you immunity to the first revealed, than you can only chain 2 CnD to run away.

In this scenario you can try to finish the fight with 2 quick backstabs and still be low on health for the spike, or you can chain 2 cnd for 8sec stealth and run as far as you can (if you dont get CC’d)…

I don’t see why there is such aversion to the idea of having an on crit effect in the trait line when there are plenty of other similar traits in the game that lie in trait lines that don’t grant precision. I quite like the idea tbh, although i think the numbers could be altered to be more balanced.

While i like the idea of vigor too, it doesn’t really feel like it belongs in the shadow arts trait line and would make much more sense in acrobatics trait line. But, as said, neither does power shots or venomous aura :P

It’s not only the fact, the line is a toughness line…
It’s also a stealth based line, with the focus clearly on defense and group support(venom share with leeching venom gives the group lifesteal, for example).
The only minor traits, I found which are on-crit and outside of crit lines are on the elementalist(25pt arcana) and guardian(vigor on crit, 5 pt into vit line).
Let’s have a look at these.
The elementalist is not as hard about applying side conditions with normal attacks as the necro, but it’s still one of their defining points. The guardian is designed to never be able to only support or only deal damage. You will always have a part of the second aspect, that’s why this trait is actually fitting.
About the respective trait lines, these are in:
Elementalist: Arcana has 2 defining characteristics: firstly, arcane spells, and secondly, Adding side-effects to other aspects of the class. That’s what that trait does nicely. Arcane spells are built around critting(guaranteed crits mostly) and other aspects of the class have a chance to deal conditions. Fits nicely into the line.
I don’t need to say that a vigor source in the same line which grants heal on evade is a good fit for a guardian, having it proc on crit is simply a question of design. Guardian is built to always combine supportive aspects with damaging ones, so vigor on crit is not that far off. Fits here aswell.

Now for the suggestion: Heal on crit in a traitline which is built around group support and stealth? It just doesn’t fit. If you make it something selfish, make it stealth based or it’s better put into the critical hits or acrobatics line.

Well the trait line also increases healing power and has several traits that offer extra healing. It fits in quite nicely with that theme imo.

Obviously “Last Refuge” sucks as it is completely counter-intuitive to the trait line it belongs on. While paper it makes sense as it stealths you, it only works in the situation when you’re already unstealthed and not on reveal debuff… which anyone taking this trait line will not have be the case.

The OP’s suggestion is overpowered… especially as a 5pt minor. It also doesn’t fit the “oh kitten” auto-survival point. Personally this is my suggestion:

Slippery: When your health reaches 25%, your survival instincts kick in, evading all attacks for 3 seconds. (This can only trigger once every 90 seconds)

Something like that would fit their description of thief, and would be that last ditch trigger that might actually help you survive rather than get you killed.

I think a simple and elegant change might be something more like granting a couple seconds of Protection whenever you stealth. Wouldn’t even need to change the name.

Drawing Guy.3701:

Obviously “Last Refuge” sucks as it is completely counter-intuitive to the trait line it belongs on. While paper it makes sense as it stealths you, it only works in the situation when you’re already unstealthed and not on reveal debuff… which anyone taking this trait line will not have be the case.

The OP’s suggestion is overpowered… especially as a 5pt minor. It also doesn’t fit the “oh kitten” auto-survival point. Personally this is my suggestion:

Slippery: When your health reaches 25%, your survival instincts kick in, evading all attacks for 3 seconds. (This can only trigger once every 90 seconds)

Something like that would fit their description of thief, and would be that last ditch trigger that might actually help you survive rather than get you killed.

I like it when you suggest something of mine is overpowered when it really isn’t, it offers the thief staying power and more builds to what it needs, staying power.

Then you pretty much say: Well how about instead pretty much invulnerability, which is completely balanced? Not really considering the way thief works, 3 seconds of evasion at 25% health is amazing for PvP and I could argue even MORE overpowered, not so much for PvE.

Where my idea is amazing in PvE, and soso in PvP.

naphack.9346:

It’s not only the fact, the line is a toughness line…
It’s also a stealth based line, with the focus clearly on defense and group support(venom share with leeching venom gives the group lifesteal, for example).
The only minor traits, I found which are on-crit and outside of crit lines are on the elementalist(25pt arcana) and guardian(vigor on crit, 5 pt into vit line).
Let’s have a look at these.
The elementalist is not as hard about applying side conditions with normal attacks as the necro, but it’s still one of their defining points. The guardian is designed to never be able to only support or only deal damage. You will always have a part of the second aspect, that’s why this trait is actually fitting.
About the respective trait lines, these are in:
Elementalist: Arcana has 2 defining characteristics: firstly, arcane spells, and secondly, Adding side-effects to other aspects of the class. That’s what that trait does nicely. Arcane spells are built around critting(guaranteed crits mostly) and other aspects of the class have a chance to deal conditions. Fits nicely into the line.
I don’t need to say that a vigor source in the same line which grants heal on evade is a good fit for a guardian, having it proc on crit is simply a question of design. Guardian is built to always combine supportive aspects with damaging ones, so vigor on crit is not that far off. Fits here aswell.

Now for the suggestion: Heal on crit in a traitline which is built around group support and stealth? It just doesn’t fit. If you make it something selfish, make it stealth based or it’s better put into the critical hits or acrobatics line.

Elementalist/Guardians/Thief share the same health pools… very low. :/

Daecollo.9578:

Drawing Guy.3701:

Obviously “Last Refuge” sucks as it is completely counter-intuitive to the trait line it belongs on. While paper it makes sense as it stealths you, it only works in the situation when you’re already unstealthed and not on reveal debuff… which anyone taking this trait line will not have be the case.

The OP’s suggestion is overpowered… especially as a 5pt minor. It also doesn’t fit the “oh kitten” auto-survival point. Personally this is my suggestion:

Slippery: When your health reaches 25%, your survival instincts kick in, evading all attacks for 3 seconds. (This can only trigger once every 90 seconds)

Something like that would fit their description of thief, and would be that last ditch trigger that might actually help you survive rather than get you killed.

I like it when you suggest something of mine is overpowered when it really isn’t, it offers the thief staying power and more builds to what it needs, staying power.

Then you pretty much say: Well how about instead pretty much invulnerability, which is completely balanced? Not really considering the way thief works, 3 seconds of evasion at 25% health is amazing for PvP and I could argue even MORE overpowered, not so much for PvE.

Where my idea is amazing in PvE, and soso in PvP.

Um – on crit heals is not over powered? Something that would apply 24/7 and help any but a non-crit condition? Something that is a required trait as it’s just a 5pt drop into shadow? Every single build option I would ever make (as a non-crit thief is just dumb) would take this trait period. 417+ HP every two seconds is not trivial – who wouldn’t want a few K HP for free between any of your normal heal options for only 5 trait points? So yes, your idea is “amazing” in both PvE and PvP.

As for my idea, yes it is something that can save your life, but 3s+ evade/invuln is something almost every class has at their disposal. Only exceptions is Ranger – though they have their double duration evades on several weapon’s auto attacks and utility, and 5pt perma vigor for their protection dodge… so they’re not really hurting. Necro, but they’re designed to take a hit. Then thief – designed to not take a hit but has no evade options beyond the standard .7s. Sadly they STILL would not have access to anything but twitch timing except as an “oh sh-” option, but still fitting. So should it be 2s instead of 3? Or should they not be allowed to use 1-5 as they’re too busy concentrating on survival to attack? That would be subject of balancing if it is deemed as OP, but considering it is on long cooldown and matched or bettered by most, it doesn’t seem to be OP to me.

Drawing Guy.3701:

Daecollo.9578:

Drawing Guy.3701:

Obviously “Last Refuge” sucks as it is completely counter-intuitive to the trait line it belongs on. While paper it makes sense as it stealths you, it only works in the situation when you’re already unstealthed and not on reveal debuff… which anyone taking this trait line will not have be the case.

The OP’s suggestion is overpowered… especially as a 5pt minor. It also doesn’t fit the “oh kitten” auto-survival point. Personally this is my suggestion:

Slippery: When your health reaches 25%, your survival instincts kick in, evading all attacks for 3 seconds. (This can only trigger once every 90 seconds)

Something like that would fit their description of thief, and would be that last ditch trigger that might actually help you survive rather than get you killed.

I like it when you suggest something of mine is overpowered when it really isn’t, it offers the thief staying power and more builds to what it needs, staying power.

Then you pretty much say: Well how about instead pretty much invulnerability, which is completely balanced? Not really considering the way thief works, 3 seconds of evasion at 25% health is amazing for PvP and I could argue even MORE overpowered, not so much for PvE.

Where my idea is amazing in PvE, and soso in PvP.

Um – on crit heals is not over powered? Something that would apply 24/7 and help any but a non-crit condition? Something that is a required trait as it’s just a 5pt drop into shadow? Every single build option I would ever make (as a non-crit thief is just dumb) would take this trait period. 417+ HP every two seconds is not trivial – who wouldn’t want a few K HP for free between any of your normal heal options for only 5 trait points? So yes, your idea is “amazing” in both PvE and PvP.

As for my idea, yes it is something that can save your life, but 3s+ evade/invuln is something almost every class has at their disposal. Only exceptions is Ranger – though they have their double duration evades on several weapon’s auto attacks and utility, and 5pt perma vigor for their protection dodge… so they’re not really hurting. Necro, but they’re designed to take a hit. Then thief – designed to not take a hit but has no evade options beyond the standard .7s. Sadly they STILL would not have access to anything but twitch timing except as an “oh sh-” option, but still fitting. So should it be 2s instead of 3? Or should they not be allowed to use 1-5 as they’re too busy concentrating on survival to attack? That would be subject of balancing if it is deemed as OP, but considering it is on long cooldown and matched or bettered by most, it doesn’t seem to be OP to me.

Too overpowered for the thief, you already can exit the fight and the only way to stop you is that 2-3 seconds you have when hes almost dead for those kinds of thieves, that 2-3 seconds is vital to ending them.

Your just making popular builds way better, where my idea offers “STAYING POWER” for non-glass cannon thieves.

The fact that the trait described alone sounds more like an acrobatics one then a Shadow Arts one….

Grimwolf.7163:

I think a simple and elegant change might be something more like granting a couple seconds of Protection whenever you stealth. Wouldn’t even need to change the name.

Actually, I think instead of Protection when stealthed, if they insist on keeping 4 seconds of Revealed, perhaps a 10 or 15% reduction to incoming damage while Revealed is active would befit a 5 point trait in a stealth tree.

Daecollo.9578:

Your just making popular builds way better, where my idea offers “STAYING POWER” for non-glass cannon thieves.

Your idea also offers “STAYING POWER” for the popular builds, including Glass Cannons (Also helps remove some of the “Glass” since with a high crit chance often achieved by GC’s the likelyhood of getting the ~600 health every 2 seconds)

Not all GC thieves are the stupid 25/30/0/0/15 build, there are many other viable glassy builds that utilize Zerker gear – High crit chance and crit damage.

Considering that a lot of the popular builds are stuff like 10/30/30 or 0/20/30/20 or some other variation that goes into Shadow Arts and Critical Strikes lines (Even some Condi builds go 15 into Critical Strikes for Opportunist and get decent crit chance to go along with that)

With a good crit rate, this passive 5 point ability will outdo the healing of Perma Regeneration with 560 Healing power (Not accounting for the scaling provided on the trait suggestion) it’ll also do damage as well. If combined up with the extra trait the Life Siphon will be able to outdo Perma-Regeneration with over 1300 healing power (Again not accounting for the scaling on the Siphon)

So, 10 points for better than nearly full Healing power geared Regeneration, whilst still being able (In fact, incentivised) to go full crit + damage.

Taril.8619:

Daecollo.9578:

Your just making popular builds way better, where my idea offers “STAYING POWER” for non-glass cannon thieves.

Your idea also offers “STAYING POWER” for the popular builds, including Glass Cannons (Also helps remove some of the “Glass” since with a high crit chance often achieved by GC’s the likelyhood of getting the ~600 health every 2 seconds)

Not all GC thieves are the stupid 25/30/0/0/15 build, there are many other viable glassy builds that utilize Zerker gear – High crit chance and crit damage.

Considering that a lot of the popular builds are stuff like 10/30/30 or 0/20/30/20 or some other variation that goes into Shadow Arts and Critical Strikes lines (Even some Condi builds go 15 into Critical Strikes for Opportunist and get decent crit chance to go along with that)

With a good crit rate, this passive 5 point ability will outdo the healing of Perma Regeneration with 560 Healing power (Not accounting for the scaling provided on the trait suggestion) it’ll also do damage as well. If combined up with the extra trait the Life Siphon will be able to outdo Perma-Regeneration with over 1300 healing power (Again not accounting for the scaling on the Siphon)

So, 10 points for better than nearly full Healing power geared Regeneration, whilst still being able (In fact, incentivised) to go full crit + damage.

Most glass cannon builds are ones that try to kill someone quickly, staying at 90% health and not getting hit at all, then exiting as quickly as possible after the kill. They usually die instantly when they are focused.

So thieves will have the same healing as a guardian and elementalist who have 0 healing power? shrugs

Daecollo.9578:

Most glass cannon builds are ones that try to kill someone quickly, staying at 90% health and not getting hit at all, then exiting as quickly as possible after the kill. They usually die instantly when they are focused.

Actually, that’s just the Burst builds, that tend to try and win using the insta-gib combo (The BV > CnD > Mug > BS)

There are a lot of glassy builds that forego stealth, those that utilize but don’t rely on it and those that use it but utilise other defences (Such as Blinds from D/P) to keep up high damage pressure. These tend to be the high skill builds since dodging is mandatory to live against a half decent opponent.

Taril.8619:

Daecollo.9578:

Most glass cannon builds are ones that try to kill someone quickly, staying at 90% health and not getting hit at all, then exiting as quickly as possible after the kill. They usually die instantly when they are focused.

Actually, that’s just the Burst builds, that tend to try and win using the insta-gib combo (The BV > CnD > Mug > BS)

There are a lot of glassy builds that forego stealth, those that utilize but don’t rely on it and those that use it but utilise other defences (Such as Blinds from D/P) to keep up high damage pressure. These tend to be the high skill builds since dodging is mandatory to live against a half decent opponent.

That is why 3 second evasion would be way OP, if they screw up they have 3 seconds to teleport/get away and nothing can stop them.

Daecollo.9578:

That is why 3 second evasion would be way OP, if they screw up they have 3 seconds to teleport/get away and nothing can stop them.

I agree.

The fact that Warriors get 3 seconds of invulnerability at 25% but on a Major Master trait, kind of shows how powerful it is (On a class that’s main way of living when getting to that health tends to be “SMASH FACE!!”)

3 seconds of evadeing is plenty of time to Shadowstep away/Get off most of a Shadow Refuge (Evading also means that things such as Immobilise and Cripple won’t be able to land) and shouldn’t be given to Thieves, especially as a 5 point trait.

Taril.8619:

Daecollo.9578:

That is why 3 second evasion would be way OP, if they screw up they have 3 seconds to teleport/get away and nothing can stop them.

I agree.

The fact that Warriors get 3 seconds of invulnerability at 25% but on a Major Master trait, kind of shows how powerful it is (On a class that’s main way of living when getting to that health tends to be “SMASH FACE!!”)

3 seconds of evadeing is plenty of time to Shadowstep away/Get off most of a Shadow Refuge (Evading also means that things such as Immobilise and Cripple won’t be able to land) and shouldn’t be given to Thieves, especially as a 5 point trait.

3 seconds of evasion is better then invulnerability, because you can block dots too. However it would make a GREAT acrobatic’s master trait.

No thanks, I can take being forced to get crits on Major Traits because you can choose not to have them if it doesn’t suit your spec (like the Vuln on crits trait), but being forced to invest in crits to get a minor trait (something you get by investing in the tree) working on a tree that isn’t related to crits? No thanks.

That you play crits and find cool to be a vampire and use your crits to steal life doesn’t mean everyone should be forced to invest on crits when playing Shadow Arts.

PS: Btw, like many of your late sugestions, those healing numbers are terribly OP. 426 (upgradable to 639) HP each 2 seconds is a HUGE LOT, specially on a 5 points trait. Guardians best survivality build uses a 30 points trait that heals 72 each time they apply a boon and they’re nearly invincible when surrounded by allies just with 72 HP heals. Those healing numbers of yours on a 5 points trait are insane (the guardian has 72 HP heals on a 30 pts trait that requires you to have many allies to be effective) and completly OP not to mention it’s also aditional damage and it would add to the other ways the Thief has to keep HP.

Please tone down your sugestions a bit or people won’t get them too seriously. Some of your latest sugestions have been ridicously OP.

PS2: The Guardian has something similar example is terrible for a simple thing:

Guardias are NEARLY FORCED to choose specific specs. Their best trait is at the end of a tree that gives 30 critical damage but no precission, and their second best trait tree starts with an “on crit” trait on a tree that doesn’t increases Precission, which means that at the end they’re forced to pick equipment that increases their precission just to get the best of what they got by picking the best traits.

Because A works better with B and B goes well with C, they’re “forced” to pick A, B and C to optimize their builds (I have a maxed Guardian and most other specs simply aren’t as efficent). I don’t want the Thief to be forced to specific playstyles (at least not more than they currently are).

Such a powerful trait with just 5 points on our most used trait tree would force everyone to go Berserker and play Crit builds just to get their aweome Invincibility builds.

TBH I’d be happier if less traits and sigils revoled around crits. Crits should definately be a build option, but there should simply be more options (for all professions) to run effective builds that don’t stack crit chance.

After all stacking crit chance is already its own return in terms of extremely good gain on damage over other stats. Why is it high crit also confers the activation requiremnt for the vast majority of sigils and a disproportionately high number of defensive traits?

The sentiment (a passive on-hit trait in the healing line) is a pretty decent one for thieves. Offensive healing. The numbers may be a bit whacky, but the cooldown would look good on a trait. Maybe have it do something whacky like work on a flat% from attacks, but scale based on something offensive rather than defensive for the heal like used initiative, number of skills (including steal) on cooldown, or some other interesting flavor that would enable more build diversity? What if thief could spec in to workable support somehow by sharing the heals to nearby allies? That combined with venom share might give us the ability to spec in to viable support builds like most other classes can spec in to.

Taril.8619:

Daecollo.9578:

Your comparing two different classes.

I’m also comparing similar traits, just like you’re basing your suggestion on another classes trait.

Necromancers have almost double the health of the thief and much more condition removal.

While Necromancers have 80% more base health than a thief (18k base compared to 10k base) they also have limited dodging and evasion capabilities, meaning they’re forced to take damage and try to heal up. They also have an entire trait line that’s based around life stealing, having another class out do the majority of their line with no less than a 5 point trait would be unacceptable.

On the topic of condition removal:

Necromancer:

• Consume Conditions – 25 second cooldown
• Well of Power – 60 second cooldown
• Deathly Swarm – 18 second cooldown
• Putrid Mark – 25 second cooldown
• Plague Signet – 60 second cooldown
• Spiteful Removal – 10 second cooldown (Requires a kill)
• Fetid Consumtion – 10 second cooldown per minion (Will transfer it to a minion rather than dissipating it)

Thief:

• Shadow Step – 50 second cooldown
• Roll for Initiative – 60 second cooldown
• Signet of Agility – 30 second cooldown
• Infiltrator’s Strike – No cooldown (Costs 5 initiative in total)
• Hide in Shadows – 30 second cooldown
• Withdraw – 15 second cooldown
• Shadow’s Embrace – No cooldown (1 removed upon stealthing and 1 removed every 3 seconds you remain stealthed)
• Fleet of Foot – 10 second cooldown

… Lets be fair here.

On the topic of condition removal:

Necromancer:

• Consume Conditions – 25 second cooldown – Removes all conditions
• Well of Power – 60 second cooldown – Converts 1 condition to a boon every sec for 5s
• Deathly Swarm – 18 second cooldown – Transfers 3 conditions to target
• Putrid Mark – 25 second cooldown – Another Condition transfer (not sure the number of conditions affected though )
• Plague Signet – 60 second cooldown – Transfers all conditions to a target
• Spiteful Removal – 10 second cooldown (Requires a kill) – Lose 3 Conditions
• Fetid Consumtion – 10 second cooldown per minion (Will transfer it to a minion rather than dissipating it) – 1 condition per 10s per minion.

Thief:

• Shadow Step – 50 second cooldown – 3 condition On return
• Roll for Initiative – 60 second cooldown – Removes Cripple, chill and Immob
• Signet of Agility – 30 second cooldown – Removes 1 condition, 600 radius
• Infiltrator’s Strike – No cooldown (Costs 5 initiative in total) – removes 1 condition on return
• Hide in Shadows – 30 second cooldown – Removes bleed, burn and poison
• Withdraw – 15 second cooldown – Removes cripple, chill and immb
• Shadow’s Embrace – No cooldown (1 removed upon stealthing and 1 removed every 3 seconds you remain stealthed)
• Fleet of Foot – 10 second cooldown – removes crippled and weakness on dodge.

When you look at the specifics, it’s pretty easy to see that a necro’s condition removal is much stronger than a thiefs (And rightly so IMO…its a necromancer)

evilapprentice.6379:

When you look at the specifics, it’s pretty easy to see that a necro’s condition removal is much stronger than a thiefs (And rightly so IMO…its a necromancer)

It essentially comes down to:

Necro removes large numbers of Conditions

vs

Thieves have much more spammable removal skills (Hell, the Remove Conditions on/during stealth does much more than most of the Necro’s removals, due to it can be spammed and whilst in stealth it’s much less likely that conditions are being applied (Since attacks that require a target like Necro Sceptre #1, Necro’s Blood is Power, Necro’s Deathly Swarm, Mesmer’s Sceptre #3 etc)

Considering the time it takes for most classes to get up conditions (Aside from Thief, but they generally apply 1 maybe 2 conditions) the repeated small condition removals becomes really powerful (Especially when you combine them, so stuff like Withdraw to remove all Cripple/Chill/Immobilize to leave other skills such as the on stealth removal to be sure to take off the damaging conditions)

Let’s put it this way: Thieves are strong against “side-effect” conditions…
But against a dedicated condition build, they just get steamrolled by the cover uptime.

Taril.8619:

evilapprentice.6379:

When you look at the specifics, it’s pretty easy to see that a necro’s condition removal is much stronger than a thiefs (And rightly so IMO…its a necromancer)

It essentially comes down to:

Necro removes large numbers of Conditions

vs

Thieves have much more spammable removal skills (Hell, the Remove Conditions on/during stealth does much more than most of the Necro’s removals, due to it can be spammed and whilst in stealth it’s much less likely that conditions are being applied (Since attacks that require a target like Necro Sceptre #1, Necro’s Blood is Power, Necro’s Deathly Swarm, Mesmer’s Sceptre #3 etc)

Considering the time it takes for most classes to get up conditions (Aside from Thief, but they generally apply 1 maybe 2 conditions) the repeated small condition removals becomes really powerful (Especially when you combine them, so stuff like Withdraw to remove all Cripple/Chill/Immobilize to leave other skills such as the on stealth removal to be sure to take off the damaging conditions)

Their on stealth condition removal is by far the best condition removal they have – if you want to rely on stealth and have 10 points in SA with a specific trait slotted – not all of us want to do that. Their “On heal” removes are good as well, but narrowly targeted. Necro’s remove a large number of conditions, regardless what specific condition it is – that’s the key there. Thieves have limited options when it comes to removing anything that isn’t burn/bleed/poison and cripple/chill/immob. Confusion, blind, weakness – these have to be removed by our general removals (Shadow return, on stealth condition drop, signet of agility)

In addition, a number of the Necro’s skills aren’t just removal, but also a transfer – in combat, thats much stronger. You didnt just get rid of Bleed, Burning and Blind, you applied them to your target.

What if your not a stealth thief? Should non-stealth thieves just be ignored?

Daecollo.9578:

What if your not a stealth thief? Should non-stealth thieves just be ignored?

…So you’re trying to advocate a build that goes into Shadow Arts WITHOUT using stealth? Why don’t you put 30 points into Trickery and never use Steal while you’re at it.

If you aren’t a stealth thief don’t skill shadow arts…

Grimwolf.7163:

Daecollo.9578:

What if your not a stealth thief? Should non-stealth thieves just be ignored?

…So you’re trying to advocate a build that goes into Shadow Arts WITHOUT using stealth? Why don’t you put 30 points into Trickery and never use Steal while you’re at it.

I’ve currently got 30 points in SA (Running a venom share build) and with S/D CnD is my absolute lowest priority skill – If I use it once in a battle, that’s about it. I also run Withdraw and no stealth utils. So there are reasons for going full SA without really caring about stealth.

Not good reasons…

Well “Shadow Arts.” is basicly Deception. Leeching Venoms and other things are in Shadow Arts. What if Life-Stealing is also a “Shadow Art?”

Deception also has shadow-step, which isn’t stealth.

When you use Shadow Refuge, a necromancers scythe comes out of your arm. Necromancers steal life, so you could say or argue that maybe “Shadow Arts.” the Art of Shadow (Deception.) also has some necromancy in it? It also heals you as well.

In my opinion, it makes sense that Shadow Arts has a Life-stealing trait in it.

New Last Refuge Ignores Revealed and doesn’t proc it. Problem solved.

Grimwolf.7163:

Not good reasons…

You obviously haven’t tried the build I’m currently running.

I could make an amazing S/P and P/P or S/D build with a trait like this.

Daecollo.9578:

Well “Shadow Arts.” is basicly Deception. Leeching Venoms and other things are in Shadow Arts. What if Life-Stealing is also a “Shadow Art?”

Deception also has shadow-step, which isn’t stealth.

When you use Shadow Refuge, a necromancers scythe comes out of your arm. Necromancers steal life, so you could say or argue that maybe “Shadow Arts.” the Art of Shadow (Deception.) also has some necromancy in it? It also heals you as well.

In my opinion, it makes sense that Shadow Arts has a Life-stealing trait in it.

evilapprentice.6379:

Grimwolf.7163:

Not good reasons…

You obviously haven’t tried the build I’m currently running.

Two of the mandatory Minor traits and over half the Major traits rely completely on entering Stealth to get their effect, and the other Minor trait puts you into stealth.
If you go into Shadow Arts without focusing on Stealth, you’re wasting a hell of a lot of traits, and there’ll always be better ways you could be doing it.

And if you’re taking a dagger off-hand on top of it without using much stealth, that’s just full-blown insane.

Grimwolf.7163:

Daecollo.9578:

Well “Shadow Arts.” is basicly Deception. Leeching Venoms and other things are in Shadow Arts. What if Life-Stealing is also a “Shadow Art?”

Deception also has shadow-step, which isn’t stealth.

When you use Shadow Refuge, a necromancers scythe comes out of your arm. Necromancers steal life, so you could say or argue that maybe “Shadow Arts.” the Art of Shadow (Deception.) also has some necromancy in it? It also heals you as well.

In my opinion, it makes sense that Shadow Arts has a Life-stealing trait in it.

Two of the mandatory Minor traits and over half the Major traits rely completely on entering Stealth to get their effect, and the other Minor trait puts you into stealth.
If you go into Shadow Arts without focusing on Stealth, you’re wasting a hell of a lot of traits, and there’ll always be better ways you could be doing it.

That is why its a minor trait and not a major/master trait. So you can get 5-10 points in shadow arts and focus on other things besides stealth if you don’t want to use stealth. Its a critical trait because most stealth users have criticals, even condition ones with (prec/cond/tough) gear. (so you can proc more bleeds/burns with on-crit sigils.)

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mck9ixax You could make an S/P or P/P build like this and focus on Life-Stealing + Damage and not stealth. Good for dungeons.

You could argue that “mug” is better for that. However if you are a P/P you may be trying to get away from your opponent, not close-up. I would rather have sustained damage, not burst.

However… I really want more options for staying in the fight for thief.