Guild Wars 2

T raw.4658:

Jana.6831:

T raw.4658:

I’m guessing you missed the video of the fella winning duels running a condi thief with no weapons?

If Anet would require Power/Precision/Condi damage as the ONLY way to pump condi damage then we might be able to have a conversation about skill and condi thieves in the same sentence.

Either way its not happening and you are doing yourself a disservice by playing p/d condi.

You do realize that these videos were made before the patch, right?

And now we have a trap ghost thief build which is even more broken.

Like i said if we make conditions require high power/precision for optimal damage then I may change my mind.

Btw this isn’t thief specific.

And yes i do realize that they nerfed bleeding/poison/torment damage. Thank god they did.

Bleeding and poison are trash even ranger needs additional burning to make it useful, that ghost build is a troll one it’s ineffective in squad please stop with the random duels,there is a reason why sinister will only work vs AI they don’t do anything about conditions or nothing at all if you think it works well vs players you don’t know how conditions work a lot of people don’t.

Condi thief “opness” in WvW has been discussed already that’s too WvW to handle their differences from PvP.

Ghost trap only works against the feebleminded. There’s also a reason why you rarely see p/d in pvp. It only finds its footing in WvW. As to the weaponless p/d video, again, I highly suspect that opponents weren’t exactly top shelf, or had sub-optimal builds with little to no condi clear.

We have a differing of opinion. You look down on p/d and on anyone that enjoys the playstyle. That’s fine. Arrogance isn’t really a virtue but again, to each their own. If your input swayed the devs in any way, I’d be concerned, but it’s your personal opinion and I’m fine with that.

I’m sure you’re a thief god while playing d/p, like 90% of everyone else.

Quote: “Either way its not happening and you are doing yourself a disservice by playing p/d condi.”

A disservice? What is this, the video olympics? Last I knew, I played this game for enjoyment. You’re making it sound like I’m training for some E-sport, and that by playing a spec you believe is inferior, I won’t even get the bronze medal. I haven’t stepped into the pvp lobby even once, all the way back to beta 3 years ago. I solely play WvW. Sorry, I’m not one of the “elite” that finds solace in excelling in pvp.

Sagat.3285:

T raw.4658:

Jana.6831:

T raw.4658:

I’m guessing you missed the video of the fella winning duels running a condi thief with no weapons?

If Anet would require Power/Precision/Condi damage as the ONLY way to pump condi damage then we might be able to have a conversation about skill and condi thieves in the same sentence.

Either way its not happening and you are doing yourself a disservice by playing p/d condi.

You do realize that these videos were made before the patch, right?

And now we have a trap ghost thief build which is even more broken.

Like i said if we make conditions require high power/precision for optimal damage then I may change my mind.

Btw this isn’t thief specific.

And yes i do realize that they nerfed bleeding/poison/torment damage. Thank god they did.

Bleeding and poison are trash even ranger needs additional burning to make it useful, that ghost build is a troll one it’s ineffective in squad please stop with the random duels,there is a reason why sinister will only work vs AI they don’t do anything about conditions or nothing at all if you think it works well vs players you don’t know how conditions work a lot of people don’t.

Condi thief “opness” in WvW has been discussed already that’s too WvW to handle their differences from PvP.

You seem to forget that Anet does indeed balance on WvW. I’ll just say Infusion in Shadow and now you’ll stop talking about thief balance for PvP and WvW being seperate http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infusion_of_Shadow

Condition damage builds are supposed to be attrition based. Currently we have condi bombs and condi burst. (If you deny this then pretty much this conversation is over) My proposal is to keep the condi burst/bombs/whatever but make the builds glass to apply them. You could still build your condi build with dire/perplex but you won’t be able to burst someone down with conditions. It’ll be TRUE attrition gameplay. So Yes sinister would be required to achieve condi bomb damage. If you have trouble making it work maybe you need to reevaluate your own play because glass players have been doing it since release.

I understand how conditions work. Its not like i’ve never played condition builds. Unfortunately I have quite a bit of experience on condi builds. That being said I am all for returning burning to what it was before the last patch. Make it only stack time. Even before the 23rd Burning was too strong, but I’ll take that over what we have now.

Thank You

uglydan.1638:

Ghost trap only works against the feebleminded. There’s also a reason why you rarely see p/d in pvp. It only finds its footing in WvW. As to the weaponless p/d video, again, I highly suspect that opponents weren’t exactly top shelf, or had sub-optimal builds with little to no condi clear.

We have a differing of opinion. You look down on p/d and on anyone that enjoys the playstyle. That’s fine. Arrogance isn’t really a virtue but again, to each their own. If your input swayed the devs in any way, I’d be concerned, but it’s your personal opinion and I’m fine with that.

I’m sure you’re a thief god while playing d/p, like 90% of everyone else.

Quote: “Either way its not happening and you are doing yourself a disservice by playing p/d condi.”

A disservice? What is this, the video olympics? Last I knew, I played this game for enjoyment. You’re making it sound like I’m training for some E-sport, and that by playing a spec you believe is inferior, I won’t even get the bronze medal. I haven’t stepped into the pvp lobby even once, all the way back to beta 3 years ago. I solely play WvW. Sorry, I’m not one of the “elite” that finds solace in excelling in pvp.

1. The people who died to the weaponless Dire+Perplex thief weren’t scrubs and they were running Meta Dueling builds. I believe Mango (I may be wrong) made the video to emphasize how broken Dire+Perplexity is. He succeeded in spades.

P/D condi doesn’t see play in tournaments due to stealth being horrible for conquest and the thief’s actual role. Anet has also kept certain stat combo’s and runes out of PvP so there is that as well too. Could you run p/d condi in a tournament? Absolutely! As long as you have SB as your OH and SA to assist your teammates it can be viable. You’ll miss out on group stealth tho.

Yes I’ll say it again. You do yourself a disservice by running on p/d condi. Yes I know its at the weakest it’s ever been, but it still carries bad play. I’m not looking down on you persay….its the simple truth. I play every weapon set a thief offers in all types of ways. I’ve even done off the wall things like front line a thief in a zerg busting group. I’ve tried D/P condi.

At the end of the day its your game you play how you want. You are entitled to your opinion and should voice it as you see fit. You do need to understand a few things though. You only play WvW and you only play a build that the majority of players deem skilless and OP. I in fact have been on record stating I don’t consider P/D Perplexity Thieves thieves at all. I’ve played the build extensively and can with 100% certainty say its Broken. It’s not that i’m looking down on you I just honestly don’t consider you a thief player.

Though if they’d change condi damage like i’ve outlined above I’d change my stance.

T raw.4658:

uglydan.1638:

Ghost trap only works against the feebleminded. There’s also a reason why you rarely see p/d in pvp. It only finds its footing in WvW. As to the weaponless p/d video, again, I highly suspect that opponents weren’t exactly top shelf, or had sub-optimal builds with little to no condi clear.

We have a differing of opinion. You look down on p/d and on anyone that enjoys the playstyle. That’s fine. Arrogance isn’t really a virtue but again, to each their own. If your input swayed the devs in any way, I’d be concerned, but it’s your personal opinion and I’m fine with that.

I’m sure you’re a thief god while playing d/p, like 90% of everyone else.

Quote: “Either way its not happening and you are doing yourself a disservice by playing p/d condi.”

A disservice? What is this, the video olympics? Last I knew, I played this game for enjoyment. You’re making it sound like I’m training for some E-sport, and that by playing a spec you believe is inferior, I won’t even get the bronze medal. I haven’t stepped into the pvp lobby even once, all the way back to beta 3 years ago. I solely play WvW. Sorry, I’m not one of the “elite” that finds solace in excelling in pvp.

1. The people who died to the weaponless Dire+Perplex thief weren’t scrubs and they were running Meta Dueling builds. I believe Mango (I may be wrong) made the video to emphasize how broken Dire+Perplexity is. He succeeded in spades.

P/D condi doesn’t see play in tournaments due to stealth being horrible for conquest and the thief’s actual role. Anet has also kept certain stat combo’s and runes out of PvP so there is that as well too. Could you run p/d condi in a tournament? Absolutely! As long as you have SB as your OH and SA to assist your teammates it can be viable. You’ll miss out on group stealth tho.

Yes I’ll say it again. You do yourself a disservice by running on p/d condi. Yes I know its at the weakest it’s ever been, but it still carries bad play. I’m not looking down on you persay….its the simple truth. I play every weapon set a thief offers in all types of ways. I’ve even done off the wall things like front line a thief in a zerg busting group. I’ve tried D/P condi.

At the end of the day its your game you play how you want. You are entitled to your opinion and should voice it as you see fit. You do need to understand a few things though. You only play WvW and you only play a build that the majority of players deem skilless and OP. I in fact have been on record stating I don’t consider P/D Perplexity Thieves thieves at all. I’ve played the build extensively and can with 100% certainty say its Broken. It’s not that i’m looking down on you I just honestly don’t consider you a thief player.

Though if they’d change condi damage like i’ve outlined above I’d change my stance.

Well written, you get a +1 from me for this ^^

The only thing I´m disagreeing is to set burn back to only stack time. Some classes are depending on that damage-condition and an ele just overwriting all the time cause of so much burn inflicts is just unfair to builds like condi-guard. Not sure how much the scaling and numbers would have to change though.

He was just ranting. Thief is in a bad state, and ppl are frustrated.

Coronit.9432:

T raw.4658:

uglydan.1638:

Ghost trap only works against the feebleminded. There’s also a reason why you rarely see p/d in pvp. It only finds its footing in WvW. As to the weaponless p/d video, again, I highly suspect that opponents weren’t exactly top shelf, or had sub-optimal builds with little to no condi clear.

We have a differing of opinion. You look down on p/d and on anyone that enjoys the playstyle. That’s fine. Arrogance isn’t really a virtue but again, to each their own. If your input swayed the devs in any way, I’d be concerned, but it’s your personal opinion and I’m fine with that.

I’m sure you’re a thief god while playing d/p, like 90% of everyone else.

Quote: “Either way its not happening and you are doing yourself a disservice by playing p/d condi.”

A disservice? What is this, the video olympics? Last I knew, I played this game for enjoyment. You’re making it sound like I’m training for some E-sport, and that by playing a spec you believe is inferior, I won’t even get the bronze medal. I haven’t stepped into the pvp lobby even once, all the way back to beta 3 years ago. I solely play WvW. Sorry, I’m not one of the “elite” that finds solace in excelling in pvp.

1. The people who died to the weaponless Dire+Perplex thief weren’t scrubs and they were running Meta Dueling builds. I believe Mango (I may be wrong) made the video to emphasize how broken Dire+Perplexity is. He succeeded in spades.

P/D condi doesn’t see play in tournaments due to stealth being horrible for conquest and the thief’s actual role. Anet has also kept certain stat combo’s and runes out of PvP so there is that as well too. Could you run p/d condi in a tournament? Absolutely! As long as you have SB as your OH and SA to assist your teammates it can be viable. You’ll miss out on group stealth tho.

Yes I’ll say it again. You do yourself a disservice by running on p/d condi. Yes I know its at the weakest it’s ever been, but it still carries bad play. I’m not looking down on you persay….its the simple truth. I play every weapon set a thief offers in all types of ways. I’ve even done off the wall things like front line a thief in a zerg busting group. I’ve tried D/P condi.

At the end of the day its your game you play how you want. You are entitled to your opinion and should voice it as you see fit. You do need to understand a few things though. You only play WvW and you only play a build that the majority of players deem skilless and OP. I in fact have been on record stating I don’t consider P/D Perplexity Thieves thieves at all. I’ve played the build extensively and can with 100% certainty say its Broken. It’s not that i’m looking down on you I just honestly don’t consider you a thief player.

Though if they’d change condi damage like i’ve outlined above I’d change my stance.

Well written, you get a +1 from me for this ^^

The only thing I´m disagreeing is to set burn back to only stack time. Some classes are depending on that damage-condition and an ele just overwriting all the time cause of so much burn inflicts is just unfair to builds like condi-guard. Not sure how much the scaling and numbers would have to change though.

I sort of agree with this part. I don’t mind the current formulas, but individual skills need to be gone through and adjusted. Bleed, poison, and torment applications could probably be lengthened. Right now their damage isn’t overwhelming (for the most part, from a PvP perspective), so a slowly building stack of long conditions is fine. It still allows for counterplay. Burn makes sense as a short, intense application, but some skills offer too many stacks for slightly too long. Reducing the length or number on individual skills would probably be the better route for burning. When I find myself complaining about dying to a condi build, the damage breakdown usually had a huge amount of burn damage while the other damaging conditions only played a relatively minor role.

TL;DR.

I actually like the SA line, I think it is in a much better position than than the other traits except Trickery which takes the crown. Still doesn’t mean that SA is perfect, and I am definitely open to changes.

Shadow Protector and Shadow’s Rejuvenation should be merged together, two heal traits in a row is a little much even for a line of sustain. The convergence of the two should give space to a new, useful trait.

Cloaked in Shadow… Shouldn’t even be a Grand Master trait. I know Blinding on stealth is what matters, but I am just baffled as to how they thought reduced falling damage on a GM trait was a good idea. Such a waste of potential. Cloaked in Shadow as it is now, is minor trait quality.

As for D/D players or x/D for that matter, I am sure we can all agree that the problem isn’t really the traits that cover them but the skills itself.

Cloak and Dagger should apply blind instead of vul. period. If this change is implemented, I can promise there won’t much of complains against this line.

Dancing Dagger is pretty great. I can’t think of a change I would add to it. Torment maybe? too much. Slow? idk.

Personally if C&D gave blind and a few seconds of resistance I would be happy.

For the record I do not run perplexity runes. Ran it once, and didn’t suit my playstyle. I don’t run any stealth utilities either (that means no shadow refuge), nor signet of shadows.

So I guess in your book, if we don’t all run power d/p builds, we’re not thieves. I’m glad you don’t set the standard. If I really cared what other players thought, I’d be stuck running a front line warrior or guardian.

I’m giving up on trying to explain that there is no disservice to myself if I play p/d. I don’t do esports, not am I interested in doing so. I play WvW casually when I have the time, and look to have fun, not try to be the #1 thief player on the map.

I’ve played S/d, P/d, D/p and even P/p. S/d and P/p are essentially crippled (at least until HoT) and D/p is as cheesy if not more so than P/d.

Again, it’s not your opinion that is offputting, it’s your arrogance, elitism and presumptuousness that your way is the right way. You say that it’s my choice to play the way I like, then belittle me for it like you’re the final say on thief play. That’s like Henry Ford saying you can have any color you want as long as it’s black. If a black model T is my only choice, I’ll get out and walk, thank you.

T raw.4658:

Sagat.3285:

T raw.4658:

Jana.6831:

T raw.4658:

I’m guessing you missed the video of the fella winning duels running a condi thief with no weapons?

If Anet would require Power/Precision/Condi damage as the ONLY way to pump condi damage then we might be able to have a conversation about skill and condi thieves in the same sentence.

Either way its not happening and you are doing yourself a disservice by playing p/d condi.

You do realize that these videos were made before the patch, right?

And now we have a trap ghost thief build which is even more broken.

Like i said if we make conditions require high power/precision for optimal damage then I may change my mind.

Btw this isn’t thief specific.

And yes i do realize that they nerfed bleeding/poison/torment damage. Thank god they did.

Bleeding and poison are trash even ranger needs additional burning to make it useful, that ghost build is a troll one it’s ineffective in squad please stop with the random duels,there is a reason why sinister will only work vs AI they don’t do anything about conditions or nothing at all if you think it works well vs players you don’t know how conditions work a lot of people don’t.

Condi thief “opness” in WvW has been discussed already that’s too WvW to handle their differences from PvP.

You seem to forget that Anet does indeed balance on WvW. I’ll just say Infusion in Shadow and now you’ll stop talking about thief balance for PvP and WvW being seperate http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infusion_of_Shadow

Condition damage builds are supposed to be attrition based. Currently we have condi bombs and condi burst. (If you deny this then pretty much this conversation is over) My proposal is to keep the condi burst/bombs/whatever but make the builds glass to apply them. You could still build your condi build with dire/perplex but you won’t be able to burst someone down with conditions. It’ll be TRUE attrition gameplay. So Yes sinister would be required to achieve condi bomb damage. If you have trouble making it work maybe you need to reevaluate your own play because glass players have been doing it since release.

I understand how conditions work. Its not like i’ve never played condition builds. Unfortunately I have quite a bit of experience on condi builds. That being said I am all for returning burning to what it was before the last patch. Make it only stack time. Even before the 23rd Burning was too strong, but I’ll take that over what we have now.

Thank You

A glass condition player would have to have higher dps uptime then a power spec due the possibility of conditions being cleansed,transferred etc. That has a higher chance of happening in team fights then mitigating burst. There is a reason you don’t see condition focused spec in zergs your idea of “glass condi” would only work vs GW2 mobs. If you weren’t able to mitigate them sure.

I do agree on IoS.

Kocoff.7582:

TL;DR.

I actually like the SA line, I think it is in a much better position than than the other traits except Trickery which takes the crown. Still doesn’t mean that SA is perfect, and I am definitely open to changes.

Shadow Protector and Shadow’s Rejuvenation should be merged together, two heal traits in a row is a little much even for a line of sustain. The convergence of the two should give space to a new, useful trait.

Cloaked in Shadow… Shouldn’t even be a Grand Master trait. I know Blinding on stealth is what matters, but I am just baffled as to how they thought reduced falling damage on a GM trait was a good idea. Such a waste of potential. Cloaked in Shadow as it is now, is minor trait quality.

As for D/D players or x/D for that matter, I am sure we can all agree that the problem isn’t really the traits that cover them but the skills itself.

Cloak and Dagger should apply blind instead of vul. period. If this change is implemented, I can promise there won’t much of complains against this line.

Dancing Dagger is pretty great. I can’t think of a change I would add to it. Torment maybe? too much. Slow? idk.

Personally if C&D gave blind and a few seconds of resistance I would be happy.

Fixes that I think could bring D/D up to par without making it overpowering:

1) Blind instead of vuln on CnD (as seems to be the general concensus)
2) Remove the bounce and cripple from Dancing Dagger. Improve the projectile speed by 50% and the damage to a 1.0 multiplier. On successful hit you get a rollover for 10 seconds that shadowsteps you to your target and cripples them (range 900, instant cast, 2 initiative, 4 second cripple, no damage). This would allow for D/D to stick to target better and eliminate spam (hopefully) with the rollover. Dodging the dagger allows for counterplay so the shadowstep can be instant.
3) Make deathblossom a directable skill like warrior’s GS #3 (range 300 slide, 0.5 second evade, 0.75 second cast time including pre/post cast). D/D has poor weapon evades. Leaving the damage and bleeds where they are is fine as long as the evasion becomes useful. The fact that it’s a skill shot helps D/D unicorn builds from becoming OP.

Maugetarr.6823:

Fixes that I think could bring D/D up to par without making it overpowering:

1) Blind instead of vuln on CnD (as seems to be the general concensus)

No, please – give me my CiS back instead – I want to keep my vulnerability.

D4 could use a buff, yes – I like DB as it is though, a slight buff maybe but no experiments, please.

And I’m saying this as a D/D main – I’m using this set for a while now (1,5 years).

Just in before the devs think your points are what all thieves want.

Jana.6831:

Maugetarr.6823:

Fixes that I think could bring D/D up to par without making it overpowering:

1) Blind instead of vuln on CnD (as seems to be the general concensus)

No, please – give me my CiS back instead – I want to keep my vulnerability.

D4 could use a buff, yes – I like DB as it is though, a slight buff maybe but no experiments, please.

And I’m saying this as a D/D main – I’m using this set for a while now (1,5 years).

Just in before the devs think your points are what all thieves want.

They could add blind on top of vuln. Does that fit under all now? Only 1 person said “replace”.

Sagat.3285:

They could add blind on top of vuln. Does that fit under all now? Only 1 person said “replace”.

Yes, but one has to be careful on this forum
And I happen to love my set.

Edit: But yes, fact is: D/D needs help, that means the traits concerning D/D and offhand D could use a rework- but please be careful with that as I want to keep my playstyle and I don’t want something entirely new.
Also blind added to CnD would make CiS obsolete – we’d need a new trait.

Sagat.3285:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

You didn’t understand my post.

If they are to keep CiS as is, then it doesn’t belong in GM, thus it has to move to a Master where your fear will be realized.

However, my position is to keep CiS in GM but make it way better than it is to rival SR — for instance, make it apply 5 stacks of Blind for 5s.

SR and CiS practically do the same thing. One regens health while the other prevents damage where the net result is the same, thus they shouldn’t be in the same build.

I’m disappointed in that judgement but glad someone made it this only applies when you play d/p because the blind portion is baseline on OH pistol(see where I am going?) without the blind to guarantee some of the healing SRej is adept level. Someone is going to call me stupid but think about coming up close with CnD and using SRej you will take more damage then if you were using CiS it’s trash without blind.

That’s not how you use CnD. Any Thief running in just to CnD are bad Thief.

Your argument is weak in part that even if CnD applies blind, you’re still running towards your target to CnD, thus by your own statement, you’re taking more damage.

Keep in mind that Blind only prevents the next attack, it’s not like it’s a duration debuff so even if you blind your target after CnD, they can remove blind just by spamming their Skill #1 — even if you’re in stealth.

So the two needs to be usable d/p doesn’t take it because again the blind is baseline that’s why the set works it’s called synergy which they broke when the two were put next to each other. You could delete CiS it’s fine as long CnD gets baseline blind.

The only reason why D/P works because Black Powder is a blind field that reapplies blind for the duration. Even if you give blind to CnD, that will only prevent the next attack which will still be inferior to Black Powder. So comparing the two is a bit silly because they don’t even do the same thing.

When they moved Resilience of Shadow to minor GM, that’s already better than applying blind because it reduces damage that synergized with SR. The synergy that you’re talking about doesn’t make any sense at all because CnD applying blind will not prevent as much damage as Resilence of Shadow in practice. This idea is a bit short-sighted.

Vincent I hope you get that as well.

What Thief need is not buffing only one skill, rather an overall improvement for stealth. A CiS that applies 5 stacks of Blind for 5s will not only improve CnD, but also other skills that put you in stealth (i.e. Hidden Thief).

I agree that CnD needs improvement, but I refuse to agree on a solution that only improves that specific skill instead of looking for a solution that will improve other builds as well.

Sagat.3285:

A better one…putting CiS next to SRej is basically similar to removing blind from BP.

That is such a false statement.

CiS applies one stack of blind on stealth while BP applies blind for the duration — they have nothing in common, yet you make it sounds like they are one and the same.

Talk about apple and oranges.

If you want synergy and not forced traits like SE give CnD baseline blind and you can delete CiS.

There’s already a synergy in place. Resilience + SR — OR — Resilience + CiS

Resilience is trash if the rest of the game didn’t get a damage boost and thief was made to facetank I would say otherwise it only applies while stealth I would take the 300 toughness and healing power instead. CnD advantage was quicker stealth that 1 attack that he missed is more significant then the healing of SRej with all the attacks since he doesn’t see you can reposition to avoid the rest. SResilience is trash just lack SRej is trash if you have no means of safe healing thief facetanks terribly.

Blind stacking just for thief is worth it?? How is giving CnD baseline blind or putting CiS back to master buffing anything that’s too strong? It definitely isn’t buffing d/p who can afford taking SProtector and SRej with baseline blind on OH pistol. Did I forgot to say SResilience is trash?? My bad it’s trash.

Did you use SResilience pre patch?

Dakarius.3284:

Cloaked in shadow is simply not a grandmaster level trait. On top of that it hurts /d build forcing them to choose between it and Shadows Rejuvenation.

Couldn’t agree more. D/D and P/D was my favorite build in WvW/ PvP, but with the June trait changes, they fall far behind any other builds. Not having a decent tier 2 option for our Shadow Arts (SA) trait really hurts.

Also, most players know how to dodge roll/avoid Cloak and Dagger (Cnd), I’d really like to see a trait option (or part of weapon skill) to make it stealth you regardless of if it connects. It would be roughly the same stealth time of d/p thief using Black Powder (BP) + Heartseeker (HS) combo.

Sagat.3285:

Resilience is trash if the rest of the game didn’t get a damage boost and thief was made to facetank I would say otherwise

We’ll we differ in opinion.

it only applies while stealth I would take the 300 toughness and healing power instead.

Blind on CnD will only apply on stealth also — you’re not making any sense.

CnD advantage was quicker stealth that 1 attack that he missed is more significant then the healing of SRej with all the attacks since he doesn’t see you can reposition to avoid the rest.

You don’t need blind to do that. You can do that already with CnD even without spec-ing for CiS. Again, you’re not making sense.

SResilience is trash just lack SRej is trash if you have no means of safe healing thief facetanks terribly.

Take Withdraw? I mean, if you really want to heal yourself you don’t have to rely on SA. You can take Withdraw and spec Trickster.

Blind stacking just for thief is worth it??

Of course it is. It can efficiently prevent damage because it won’t come off easy by just spamming auto-attack.

How is giving CnD baseline blind or putting CiS back to master buffing anything that’s too strong?

It’s not about potency, it’s about availability. As I have explained already in my last post, giving CnD blind is short-sighted and doesn’t help other builds or opens up possible builds — it’s a selfish idea.

Did you use SResilience pre patch?

What’s “SResilience”? Do you mean Resilience of Shadows? That would be RoS or RS.

If that’s what you mean then no I did not, because it used to be a GM and I picked SR instead.

It’s just easier to add blind to CnD and give /d builds more freedom in SA, blind is really strong against slow classes necro and war in mind it’s getting common as well blind stacking is not worth it just for thief. Avoiding the attack is better than trying to heal it off that’s why SRej is trash if you’re going to get hit for way more than you heal at close range after CnD without blinding them. Withdraw is becoming the to go heal that’s not a good thing they already made a dumb move by putting deception CD trait next to SE. If Resilience applied on revealed then it would make sense but thief is not meant to take much hits anyway so it would always be inferior then SRej.

Lots of disagreements but I do hope he understands the overall idea.

This is what I would do and if some the same idea as others not by intent.

1>Move Merciful ambush from minor adept replace with Meld with Shadows.

2>Move Shadows Embrace from Major adept. Place it into old meld with Shadows slot at Minor Master.

3>Merciful ambush becomes a Major adept along with last refuge and concealed defeat.

Change Concealed defeat to "On being downed gain stealth for 3 seconds . Deception skills recharge 20 percent faster

Merciful Ambush becomes becomes 3 seconds stealth base rather than 2.

Last refuge remains the same. (obviously we add one second to all of these times due to Meld with shadows)

Move CIS down to Major Master. It replaces Hidden Thief. All descriptions remain same.

Leeching venoms the same. Shadow protector the same.

Change Hidden thief to “On steal release blinding powder” put this into the GM traits.

I think this new Hidden thief would warrant a GM trait as it would be a blast finisher and on stealing blind multiple enemies. This can allow you to steal into a group of enemy players and get out unscathed due to stealth and blind.It allows to steal inflict a blind/blast independent of CIS.

SE as a minor opens the door to other choices as virtually everyone takes this trait at adept.

The stealth on downed would give a bit of breathing room to the thief without that smoke field

With these changes we get.

Meld with shadows Minor adept
Shadows embrace Minor Master
Resilience of Shadows Minor Grand master.

Then at adept Last Refuge , Concealed Defeat , Merciful Ambush
At Master Cloaked in Shadows, Shadow Protector , Leeching Venoms
At grandmaster Hidden thief , Venomous Aura Shadows rejuvenation

Any other Balance Guru to make offhand dagger viable? Come on dont be shy, idea is like a cream good one always on top.

uglydan.1638:

I don’t run any stealth utilities either (that means no shadow refuge), nor signet of shadows.

D/p is as cheesy if not more so than P/d.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Shadows

You don’t thief at all do you or do ya need to edit that post?

I already know Signet of Shadows isn’t a stealth utility. I have no reason to go back and edit it.

I naturally assumed you would understand that I was referencing the speed run bonus from the signet.

I guess it’s my fault for not typing it out thus:

I don’t run any stealth utilities either (that means no shadow refuge), nor signet of shadows for the 25% speed run increase.

Your arrogance is showing again.

Addition: Just a real quick look at your posts and it’s readily apparent that you feel anyone not playing your way/your set, has no skill.

Examples: (quotes from your posts)

I’m sorry but let’s face it…S/P and P/P do not. I cringed every time I saw high level play with a S/P thief in it in the past.

S/P: Pistol whip is why this set requires minimal skill to play.
P/P: Again the 3 skill is the culprit, and all I really have to say is we can compare it to LB ranger skill level….

~End quotes.

So, according to you, anyone not playing S/D or D/P are scrubs, playing no skill builds. (with D/D being useless in PvP).

You heard it here first folks, T Raw feels you are playing no skill builds if it’s not D/P or S/D, and that you should feel ashamed for doing so.

uglydan.1638:

I already know Signet of Shadows isn’t a stealth utility. I have no reason to go back and edit it.

I naturally assumed you would understand that I was referencing the speed run bonus from the signet.

I guess it’s my fault for not typing it out thus:

I don’t run any stealth utilities either (that means no shadow refuge), nor signet of shadows for the 25% speed run increase.

Your arrogance is showing again.

Addition: Just a real quick look at your posts and it’s readily apparent that you feel anyone not playing your way/your set, has no skill.

Examples: (quotes from your posts)

I’m sorry but let’s face it…S/P and P/P do not. I cringed every time I saw high level play with a S/P thief in it in the past.

S/P: Pistol whip is why this set requires minimal skill to play.
P/P: Again the 3 skill is the culprit, and all I really have to say is we can compare it to LB ranger skill level….

~End quotes.

So, according to you, anyone not playing S/D or D/P are scrubs, playing no skill builds. (with D/D being useless in PvP).

You heard it here first folks, T Raw feels you are playing no skill builds if it’s not D/P or S/D, and that you should feel ashamed for doing so.

I’m still not understanding what not running Shadow Signet means……

As for the rest about what I call minimal skill. Yes I said it and stand by it.

Jana.6831:

Also, the might minor made us nearly as powerful as thieves who didn’t use SA = just like trickery; an offensive and defensive line – and that was good as I still had a chance against “full glass” thieves who can now chose panic strike and executioner, so I don’t think a bit might hurts.

Can you explain why you think that SA thief should have same/nearly same offence capacity like a full offence traited thief?

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Can you explain why you think that SA thief should have same/nearly same offence capacity like a full offence traited thief?

Because now you stand no chance against someone who’s build pure offensive. They could 3 shot you before the patch, you had your stealth and if they failed the first time around they didn’t have good chances to survive. I think that was pretty smart design.

Jana.6831:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Can you explain why you think that SA thief should have same/nearly same offence capacity like a full offence traited thief?

Because now you stand no chance against someone who’s build pure offensive. They could 3 shot you before the patch, you had your stealth and if they failed the first time around they didn’t have good chances to survive. I think that was pretty smart design.

They lose SA survivability to gain that offence if you don’t realise this.

Before the SA gm minor might stacking allowed SA thieves to stack enough might to be on same/higher power level as DA traited thief without signet might stacking. Pure offence thief had dps advantage only at start of a fight, all without SA surivability.

I think that was stupid design.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

They lose SA survivability to gain that offence if you don’t realise this.

Before the SA gm minor might stacking allowed SA thieves to stack enough might to be on same/higher power level as DA traited thief without signet might stacking. Pure offence thief had dps advantage only at start of a fight, all without SA surivability.

I think that was stupid design.

What survivability did and does SA have?

And it wasn’t the same level – it was still lower.

Edit: But true, no one gets power from that line anymore – I just wish that things were a bit more balanced.

Wasnt this disscusion about / d? Please take that p/d argument somewhere else. Im tired of hearing people complain about it. I play D/D, and there is no problem with the way the traits are in my opinion. If you want sustain as a thief D/D is not the weapon set you want. D/D is for damage burst and team kill assist. Youl find yourself more effective if you just spec for max damage, forget the healing in stealth and actually learn to play well. A good thief gets in does damage then gets out.
Oh and btw the “saint” traits arnt a gimmick. Its what makes a thief useful to his team. Its not just about damage. A good thief can pick his team mates up everytime. If your not getting your teamates off the ground your not doing a good job.

The Mechanic.3567:

Wasnt this disscusion about / d? Please take that p/d argument somewhere else. Im tired of hearing people complain about it. I play D/D, and there is no problem with the way the traits are in my opinion. If you want sustain as a thief D/D is not the weapon set you want. D/D is for damage burst and team kill assist. Youl find yourself more effective if you just spec for max damage, forget the healing in stealth and actually learn to play well. A good thief gets in does damage then gets out.
Oh and btw the “saint” traits arnt a gimmick. Its what makes a thief useful to his team. Its not just about damage. A good thief can pick his team mates up everytime. If your not getting your teamates off the ground your not doing a good job.

I don’t play with a team- I want stuff that’s useful for me and doesn’t force me to play in a team.
Edit: And unfortunately these traits are mandatory/there’s no “better option”. That is my problem with them.

It’s great that D/D still works for you – for most it doesn’t.
(Except in pve)

Well in honest you havent really lost anything with the changes to SA as youve gained the option for minors of a third line. I find trickery is now the must have and more than makes up for the lack of might. Strength runes dont work anymore but thats about the only downfall. Runni g suppliments like mango pies in wvw and shadow protector should help with the sustain thats lost from vhoosing blind on stealth.

The Mechanic.3567:

Youl find yourself more effective if you just spec for max damage, forget the healing in stealth and actually learn to play well. A good thief gets in does damage then gets out.

This mindset is so 2012, get in with the time.

This idea of “gets in does damage then gets out” no longer possible. The reality is, Thief gets in, does damage, then die.

This is the reason for builds that allows the Thief to get out alive and your suggestion to “just spec for max damage, forget the healing in stealth and actually learn to play well” is nothing but a wishful thinking or you’re fighting against a dummy or a training golem in the mist.

Even in a team settings, if you spec glass cannon, expect to shatter into million pieces. And every time you go down, you’re not doing any DPS and you’re obligating one of your team members to rez you. Your idea of a build for a Thief is selfish and it’s not team oriented.

Shadow Protector is a very good trait in either single or team settings.

So I have to strongly disagree with you on this.

Oh and btw the “saint” traits arnt a gimmick. Its what makes a thief useful to his team. Its not just about damage. A good thief can pick his team mates up everytime. If your not getting your teamates off the ground your not doing a good job.

If a Thief builds “for max damage, forget the healing in stealth and actually learn to play well” just as you suggested, then that Thief will not be the one bringing their team off the ground. You can only “play well” enough until someone sneezes and one-shot you.

The Mechanic.3567:

Well in honest you havent really lost anything with the changes to SA as youve gained the option for minors of a third line. I find trickery is now the must have and more than makes up for the lack of might. Strength runes dont work anymore but thats about the only downfall. Runni g suppliments like mango pies in wvw and shadow protector should help with the sustain thats lost from vhoosing blind on stealth.

Leave WvW out of this the other classes can do the same and thief healing is crap without means of mitigation like Blind that’s why d/p is the only set running SRej. Other classes have 3 lines too and “he who knows his name” with his cleansing is a conditional combat concept.

Would reworking Shadow’s Embrace to pulse Resistance while in stealth, and swapping its position with Cloaked in Shadows be a welcome change? Just a thought.

Fleurs Mortes.4502:

Would reworking Shadow’s Embrace to pulse Resistance while in stealth, and swapping its position with Cloaked in Shadows be a welcome change? Just a thought.

That’s worse. Unless they add baseline blind to CnD CiS needs to return to master slot same with Deception CD reduce. Nothing gets picked but SE in adept “he who knows his name” doesn’t understand that and he’s doing the same with DD(and Tempest). Fall damage trait needs to be in adept.

laquito.5269:

I’m not intending to nerf pistol offhand, I just want the SA D/P Spec to be nerfed, thats why SA has to be nerfed in one way or another. Trickery and Deadly Arts are completly fine as they are, they’re obligatory for any Thief PvP build anyways. What definitely isn’t fine is the easymode that D/P SA has become. If you don’t want the weaponset to be nerfed you will have to nerf Shadow Arts.

They could buff the kitten out of Critical Strikes and Acro and people would still rather play SA, because of its current design (passive kitten ftw) and its (exclusive) synergy with D/P. A simple buff to CS or Acro won’t change the D/P SA Meta.

I don’t get how you can possibly be against my suggestion, its certainly not the best, but it makes offhand dagger more viable for any spec and only slightly nerfs D/P by not being able to get Hiddenkiller and Shadow Rejuvenation.

So? Just add more passive stuff to other traitlines and buff them to be on par with shadow arts.

Jana.6831:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

They lose SA survivability to gain that offence if you don’t realise this.

Before the SA gm minor might stacking allowed SA thieves to stack enough might to be on same/higher power level as DA traited thief without signet might stacking. Pure offence thief had dps advantage only at start of a fight, all without SA surivability.

I think that was stupid design.

What survivability did and does SA have?

And it wasn’t the same level – it was still lower.

Edit: But true, no one gets power from that line anymore – I just wish that things were a bit more balanced.

SA did have excellent survivability + offence without the need for going full signet build. With strength runes, it was normal to have over 10 stacks of might during a fight, that added to 2pts in DA for mug, provided enough power to go over 300stat pts DA provided. Almost everyone in wvw ran with SA, that’s how good it used to be, far better than speccing full DA instead of SA. If you think old SA gave you “chance” to kill full offence specced thieves, then your skill level is kitten and no wonder you need old traits back.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

SA did have excellent survivability + offence without the need for going full signet build. With strength runes, it was normal to have over 10 stacks of might during a fight, that added to 2pts in DA for mug, provided enough power to go over 300stat pts DA provided. Almost everyone in wvw ran with SA, that’s how good it used to be, far better than speccing full DA instead of SA. If you think old SA gave you “chance” to kill full offence specced thieves, then your skill level is kitten and no wonder you need old traits back.

SA had a good sustain, but if you got hit while stealthed you got hit hard.
You had 12 might stacks after sitting in SR, otherwise you were somewhat around 4-8 – I know because that was my build. I also know that the might stacks didn’t make me stronger/equally strong than a thief who ran full glass (I know because I calculated it) – and above all not stronger than a signet build.
I don’t know whether or not the thieves I met ran SA, it’s been a while, most people on this board play pvp anyway and they hated SA. The thieves probably did but I guess a lot of them opted for rune of the pack.
And I think your perception of “better than DA” is wrong or maybe of the playstyle of thieves. It was easier to survive with SA, yes, but that doesn’t mean that line was OP. S/D thieves didn’t use it because they had their acro and trickery- I guess at least one line is kind of “mandatory” for every weapon choice. And SA was for D mainhand (P/D is kind of a grey area.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

If you think old SA gave you “chance” to kill full offence specced thieves, then your skill level is kitten and no wonder you need old traits back.

Whatever you mean with that.

Edit: To make my point clear: If you now run SA you have a disadvantage (in wvw) -because everybody hits harder than you, but the line doesn’t offer much sustain anymore (especially not for D/D). So you have to take hits of 12k+, get immobilized and poisoned by a thief (f.e.) who runs DA, CS, T. Your healing is impaired, you can’t clear immobilize with your trait line but you take 25% less damage horray when stealthed and immobilized in an aoe field (and rez 5% faster horray). So whatever you do, you have to outsmart him, because he is a lot stronger than you- that has been different with the old SA- and I liked that. And that is my point.

Jana.6831:

SA had a good sustain, but if you got hit while stealthed you got hit hard.

… stuff…

So whatever you do, you have to outsmart him, because he is a lot stronger than you- that has been different with the old SA- and I liked that. And that is my point.

Any dps thief hit in stealth got hit hard, not only you with SA lol. This pretty much shows why you think other builds are better than yours, I met few people with this mentality and there is just no point in giving facts.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Any dps thief hit in stealth got hit hard, not only you with SA lol. This pretty much shows why you think other builds are better than yours, I met few people with this mentality and there is just no point in giving facts.

I was comparing old and new SA – new SA has got 25% less damage (received) while stealthed- old hadn’t.

Should I tell you more about thief facts? Or are you good?

Jana.6831:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Any dps thief hit in stealth got hit hard, not only you with SA lol. This pretty much shows why you think other builds are better than yours, I met few people with this mentality and there is just no point in giving facts.

I was comparing old and new SA – new SA has got 25% less damage (received) while stealthed- old hadn’t.

Should I tell you more about thief facts? Or are you good?

That trait is trash we lost toughness and healing power, lost might on stealth that I understand, SE got nerfed,infusion got nerfed which I can understand but more importantly CiS is next to SRej. If d/p was our only weapon it wouldn’t be a problem someone believe it is.

I still think the sa tree is in a good spot, can be too good at times. Everything is perfect for team ay and solo. I mean the stealth res, -25% dmg in stealth, Condi removal in stealth too. It’s easy to troll with sa but it’s also easy to beat too.

May be d/d will become better once d/d is out dd/sa/trickery ?

Fat Disgrace.4275:

May be d/d will become better once d/d is out dd/sa/trickery ?

No, I want to backstab and I want a line which applies to me as a solo roamer and I want a chance to remove all condis without having to spec into 3 defensive lines.
To make things short: I want my old SA back. (with CiS in major, please)

And yeah, I have no hope for that.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

I still think the sa tree is in a good spot, can be too good at times. Everything is perfect for team ay and solo. I mean the stealth res, -25% dmg in stealth, Condi removal in stealth too. It’s easy to troll with sa but it’s also easy to beat too.

May be d/d will become better once d/d is out dd/sa/trickery ?

What is the focus of that build? It seems tank oriented with neither DA or CS like you are barely trying to survive. Again put CiS back to master tier or give CnD baseline blind. Why hasn’t “he who knows his name” commented on why he made this change(CiS next to SRej which doesn’t affect d/p at all) and when will he reverse it??

You just put x/d sets at levels close to p/p how do you not comment on that?

I don’t agree on CnD having blind at all, having a single skill that can blind/cursees vulnerability and stealth you is a bit much. but the trait shouldn’t be a gm for sure.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Assassin This trait would be pretty helpful and I can’t think of a single good reason why it vanished during the specialization update.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

I don’t agree on CnD having blind at all, having a single skill that can blind/cursees vulnerability and stealth you is a bit much. but the trait shouldn’t be a gm for sure.

I fear him messing up in trait replacement. He putted Concealed Defeat next to SE, gave us fall damage trait as GM,argues DD’s EA is conditional and shouldn’t be a minor, fine we wil just have traits that will never see gameplay. It’s not like OH dagger is on par with OH pistol a 3 sec blind with a 240 radius on CnD could close the gap.