Guild Wars 2

This is going to be sort of a ranting post.

I was just in PvP and running the standard D/P 6/0/2/0/6 Panic strike build, and I went to go cap a point. Someone on the opposing side engaged, and after about a minute I was ultimately downed. I get stomped and they proceeded with a “Nice Panic Strike cheese” BY ANOTHER THIEF. I am seriously starting to consider dropping this class that I’ve played since the beginning, and picking up something that doesn’t require a brain like, Ranger or something because it’s gotten to the point where another of my own kind calls me cheese.

I always feel like I’m at a disadvantage, and one game, I was towards the back of the point, and an Ele decides to burst me down from all the way across the point, ignoring everyone else in the way, with insta-cast bull that downs me in 3 or so hits.

So cheese, what is it and why do we have it?

Because it tastes so darn good.

IMHO, panic strike is pretty cheese. Immob-spamming in general (on any class) is pretty cheese....

And yes, cheese tastes so darn good. You get back what you dish out (with interest)...

Panic strike doesn’t really fall under the category of immob spamming. A 3 second immob on a 20 second cooldown that only works on one person per cd doesn’t really seem like spamming to me. It’s not really cheese either it’s just a good build that dominates when played well and, like the thief itself, sucks when not played to an extreme level.

To define what is cheese:
From my observations, cheese is any build (or mechanic) that people dislike because it stops them from (if they are a typical complainer about cheese) spamming to win or it has a spam to win playstyle (p/d condi thief, condi ranger, etc.). Also used as a way to troll people who got wrecked in a certain scenario but as a description it’s just anything people dislike that is commonly used.

Why do we have it?:
Because people want to win. Cheese builds are normally very strong and give a much higher reward for the risk and effort put into playing it rather than something else (i.e. p/d condi thief over trickery d/p thief. or pu condi mes over full zerk shatter mes).

Now for the ele build you are describing. That is the s/f fresh air ele and the reason it’s not really considered cheese is that it is a very strong build but it’s so glassy that blowing on it would kill it. It’s got a few defenses of course but it is a very high risk/ high reward build and does not qualify for cheese status.

And for the final note:
Don’t drop thief please! Especially not for ranger, there are way too many of those as it is. Thief is a challenge but if you go duel in a duel server for a while on d/p panic strike you’ll find that you start wrecking most people 1v1 when you get really comfortable with it and you’ll pick p some nice counterbursts to use against other thieves who try to burst you or that you end up having to fight in a match. Also ignore the people calling you cheese, it’s not your fault that d/p panic strike is a good build. If they don’t like it they don’t have to play the game. You bought the game, you decide how you want to play it.

Sometimes you gotta step back from the thief and then just come back to it later. Don’t quit it, just take the time to try out a different class and play to that class’s strength, and you’ll discover that anything that makes use of the mechanisms of the class will be called cheese. When I want to relax lately, I break out my warrior because the playstyle is a little less frantic, a lot more sustained, and can deliver a heavy burst when built for it. Easier? Harder? Cheesier? Meh. Different.

My experience from playing my thief, mesmer, and war tonight went like this:

Thief: This is fun
Mesmer:Thieves are so frustrating
Warrior: Why do thieves keep appearing downed in front of me?

In short: whatever you’re not built to handle will always be cheese.

The term “cheese”, came from the pronunciation of a shortened version of “cheater” (if I’m not mistaken) in Korean, and it described an unbeatable all-in strategy the Terran race in Starcraft had access to, producing marines very early and sending them, along with all your workers, to the enemy base. The “cheese” then became the term for all the early-game all-in strategies on Starcraft 2, very hard to defeat if you didn’t scout it (hello proxy gateway), and easy to adapt to if you see it coming.

To go for a cheese is to go for an all-in tactic, if you don’t end the fight very soon, you’ll lose on the long run no matter what. But the cheese is, in comparison to the classic all-in, quite often nearly unbeatable, and fairly easy to execute.

Lamuness.3570:

I am seriously starting to consider dropping this class that I’ve played since the beginning, and picking up something that doesn’t require a brain like, Ranger or something

hahaha always get a good laugh from a thief calling literally any other class brainless. It’s even better when they pick ranger because thief has every advantage in the world vs a ranger.

oh well.

Cheese is the thing that killed the baddie.

We have it because we are the direct counter to baddies.

Vespers, take into account if the ranger is played well that matchup could go either way. Rangers have some good ways to deal with thieves so saying that thieves completely counter rangers is a false statement. In some ways, the ranger can be considered braindead when you take into account the fact that most of your damage can be dealt from a very long range giving you a positional advantage over a thief considering 1) You don’t really have to set up a burst you just kinda press 2 and watch the numbers 2)You can generally see when someone is coming towards you so you should have time to prepare for the encounter.

I’m also going to assume because you are calling thief a braindead class you have never actually played competitive pvp with a thief and are just going off of the experiences of you being wrecked by them on a daily basis because that’s what thief is supposed to do when played right. Either that or you are just being a mega troll because almost every statement you made in your post was wrong or just plain ridiculous.

Ario.8964:

Vespers, take into account if the ranger is played well that matchup could go either way. Rangers have some good ways to deal with thieves so saying that thieves completely counter rangers is a false statement. In some ways, the ranger can be considered braindead when you take into account the fact that most of your damage can be dealt from a very long range giving you a positional advantage over a thief considering 1) You don’t really have to set up a burst you just kinda press 2 and watch the numbers 2)You can generally see when someone is coming towards you so you should have time to prepare for the encounter.

i wonder how they see me coming when i’m invisible… and how they can counter the initial burst that kill most of them instantly when i’m invisible… or where the very long range comes in in the clusterkitten that is all the pvp maps…

hmmm

And here I thought cheese was a dairy product. And we “have it” since it’s a pretty good in terms of calcium/protein/natural fat, besides tasting good and making pizzas complete.

MrForz.1953:

The term “cheese”, came from the pronunciation of a shortened version of “cheater” (if I’m not mistaken) in Korean, and it described an unbeatable all-in strategy the Terran race in Starcraft had access to, producing marines very early and sending them, along with all your workers, to the enemy base. The “cheese” then became the term for all the early-game all-in strategies on Starcraft 2, very hard to defeat if you didn’t scout it (hello proxy gateway), and easy to adapt to if you see it coming.

To go for a cheese is to go for an all-in tactic, if you don’t end the fight very soon, you’ll lose on the long run no matter what. But the cheese is, in comparison to the classic all-in, quite often nearly unbeatable, and fairly easy to execute.

I figured it was derived from the English expression “cheesy” which describes something as cheap and inferior as towards the means of someone else’s victory by using a build to carry inferior skill with cheap tactics.

Ario.8964:

To define what is cheese:
From my observations, cheese is any build (or mechanic) that people dislike because it stops them from (if they are a typical complainer about cheese) spamming to win or it has a spam to win playstyle (p/d condi thief, condi ranger, etc.). Also used as a way to troll people who got wrecked in a certain scenario but as a description it’s just anything people dislike that is commonly used.

Cheese, for me, was always defining something that was never very risky but yielding big rewards. A lot of condi builds would fall there.

vespers, your entire post just reinforced the point that you obviously don’t play thief. There are no more instakill builds on the thief class unless you are full glass running a build that only works in wvw and can be killed even easier than it can kill someone else. And also considering nobody builds for stealth in pvp (except maybe a few hotjoin people but that kinda nonsense isn’t even really worth noting) so that’s not going to happen, if you’re getting ganked all the time then you need to improve your map awareness and reaction time.

As for range, there are these things called vantage points that let you see most of the map and let you take advantage of your range. You might want to explore that sometime instead of complaining about how hard a glass cannon is when you run in and try to facetank damage like you would in pve. There are profession roles out there, learning them would be quite beneficial before making ridiculous claims about another class that you obviously have no experience playing.

Sirbeaumerdier,
That is a very good addition, thank you for the input (thought I had covered that later in my post but I guess not whoops)I would agree that fits the definition, though there are a ton of meanings for cheese in this game as people just use it way too often now.

DeceiverX.8361:

I figured it was derived from the English expression “cheesy” which describes something as cheap and inferior as towards the means of someone else’s victory by using a build to carry inferior skill with cheap tactics.

Both terms ended up merging with eachother with the misuses.

Honestly, whenever someone in an MMO says “Build/strategy X is cheesy” I hear, “Build/strategy X is more powerful than alternatives”. Getting mad about it is like getting mad that someone won a race because they had a faster car.

Ink.9058:

Honestly, whenever someone in an MMO says “Build/strategy X is cheesy” I hear, “Build/strategy X is more powerful than alternatives”. Getting mad about it is like getting mad that someone won a race because they had a faster car.

D: But faster cars are cheese cuz they beat me …

“I always feel like I’m at a disadvantage, and one game…”

Cheese mean: having unfair, unchallenged advantage over others- that is why you feel at disadvantage. Elementalist class is a Instant Kill class. No challenge, No Risk, Only Instant Kill, Only Reward= Cheese.

Here is a example of evidence of cheese : ‘Elementalist Player is not cheese but Elelmentalist class design’.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Sugg-Please-remove-Burst/first#post4911739

" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4xpjcPSDWQ "

teef ?

panic strike = 20066 S/D > 26006 D/P >26060 S/D

High cheese level > low cheese level.

Nutrition guide:

Noob > newbie > casual > average > pro

High consumption of cheese > Low consumption of cheese

No skill is all the skill.

Zarania.6235:

idk lol all i do is backstab people and i get angry whisps all the time

Try killing someone with Sword and getting accused of heartseeker spam in angry whispers. People don’t even try to make sense anymore with their complaints and whine about everything. ;s

Don’t worry though, Revenant will steal all the QQ hate with their energy system.

Doggie.3184:

Zarania.6235:

idk lol all i do is backstab people and i get angry whisps all the time

Try killing someone with Sword and getting accused of heartseeker spam in angry whispers. People don’t even try to make sense anymore with their complaints and whine about everything. ;s

Don’t worry though, Revenant will steal all the QQ hate with their energy system.

The revenant with all its condi spamm will make the killing of thieves a joke

Supreme.3164:

Doggie.3184:

Zarania.6235:

idk lol all i do is backstab people and i get angry whisps all the time

Try killing someone with Sword and getting accused of heartseeker spam in angry whispers. People don’t even try to make sense anymore with their complaints and whine about everything. ;s

Don’t worry though, Revenant will steal all the QQ hate with their energy system.

The revenant with all its condi spamm will make the killing of thieves a joke

Yeah, but, if a thief kills a revenant, that thief will be automatically deemed OP moreso than at the start of the fight.

Lol thanks for the responses, everyone, you’ve made my day.

The main reason why I say Rangers are brainless is because I could do 10k+ from 1500 range. If I started before thief stealths I could track them. Having a pet with fear / kd is a great addition, plus having invul helps. There are many times where I would come into fights to help them become uneven and I could quickly snipe off low HP characters. Whereas with a thief I run the risk of walking into a stack of AoEs that will instantly down me.

In fighting games, cheese means exploiting something in the system that allows for unfair wins. Like infinite combos or an over powered normal / special move. Running Panic D/P doesn’t fit any of these qualifications. Also, I run with Devourer Venom for extra immobs. :\

Zero Day.2594:

Supreme.3164:

Doggie.3184:

Zarania.6235:

idk lol all i do is backstab people and i get angry whisps all the time

Try killing someone with Sword and getting accused of heartseeker spam in angry whispers. People don’t even try to make sense anymore with their complaints and whine about everything. ;s

Don’t worry though, Revenant will steal all the QQ hate with their energy system.

The revenant with all its condi spamm will make the killing of thieves a joke

Yeah, but, if a thief kills a revenant, that thief will be automatically deemed OP moreso than at the start of the fight.

Thief should be able to kill a Revenant extremely easily by lore standards though. If not, then Anet has destroyed immersion~ At least if they’re channeling Shiro. Assassins were his mightiest weakness.

Doggie.3184:

Zero Day.2594:

Supreme.3164:

Doggie.3184:

Zarania.6235:

idk lol all i do is backstab people and i get angry whisps all the time

Try killing someone with Sword and getting accused of heartseeker spam in angry whispers. People don’t even try to make sense anymore with their complaints and whine about everything. ;s

Don’t worry though, Revenant will steal all the QQ hate with their energy system.

The revenant with all its condi spamm will make the killing of thieves a joke

Yeah, but, if a thief kills a revenant, that thief will be automatically deemed OP moreso than at the start of the fight.

Thief should be able to kill a Revenant extremely easily by lore standards though. If not, then Anet has destroyed immersion~ At least if they’re channeling Shiro. Assassins were his mightiest weakness.

TEEF OP, can kill the new class – OP!!!

Cheese is whatever you used to win it appears, even if you ran a sub-optimal build (Im running 6/6/2/0/0 d/d glassy glass) . Last night an enemy S/D thief running perma-evade 2/0/0/6/6 with signet of agility fought me. Like most bad s/d thieves he hit me once or twice then continues to evade and roll around for about 5 seconds. So I just waited for him to blow all of his endurance then I BV, C&D and backstab him dead. Countless angry whispers ensued, like ‘OMG cheesy scrub D/D L2P’

Receiving messages like that feels like a double win for me!

godmoney.6025:

Cheese is whatever you used to win it appears, even if you ran a sub-optimal build (Im running 6/6/2/0/0 d/d glassy glass) . Last night an enemy S/D thief running perma-evade 2/0/0/6/6 with signet of agility fought me. Like most bad s/d thieves he hit me once or twice then continues to evade and roll around for about 5 seconds. So I just waited for him to blow all of his endurance then I BV, C&D and backstab him dead. Countless angry whispers ensued, like ‘OMG cheesy scrub D/D L2P’

Receiving messages like that feels like a double win for me!

Nah. complaining about loosing has nothing to do with a build being cheesy or you being too good or bad.

You have people who are extremely good and successful with high risk/reward build and players who are as good and successful while running a cheesy gimick.

Your build is cheesy if with little training you get a lot of success out of it even with players who have spent a lot more time on their character than you did on that cheesy construct.

If you see a build that you feel your grandmother could play and win vs you it probably smell cheese.

The problem here is that no matter what build you play as a thief, you will always get “cheese” thrown at you because of the “TIEF OP LUL” bandwagon and people who just cannot accept the fact that maybe they were outplayed by a thief.

So it’s basically if you kill someone as a thief, you’re a noob cheese build thief, and if you get killed as a thief then you’re just a noob. It’s better to just politely offer a glass of whine in the face of a “cheese build” comment it’ll help them take it down better.

Slcrisis.6930:

The problem here is that no matter what build you play as a thief, you will always get “cheese” thrown at you because of the “TIEF OP LUL” bandwagon and people who just cannot accept the fact that maybe they were outplayed by a thief.

So it’s basically if you kill someone as a thief, you’re a noob cheese build thief, and if you get killed as a thief then you’re just a noob. It’s better to just politely offer a glass of whine in the face of a “cheese build” comment it’ll help them take it down better.

Let’s try something different since you avoid the issue. Are there thief builds you consider cheesy?

You’re asking the wrong question. Instead, ask this question: Why the heck would I care what all of these idiots think of me?

Seriously. Every professional/unique gamer got there from doing whatever the heck they wanted. They didn’t listen to all the nay sayers or the fools who can’t think outside of the box. Run what you want to run and screw the haters.

If you wanna shut them up, get good and whoop their butt. End of story.

MightyMicah.7451:

You’re asking the wrong question. Instead, ask this question: Why the heck would I care what all of these idiots think of me?

Seriously. Every professional/unique gamer got there from doing whatever the heck they wanted. They didn’t listen to all the nay sayers or the fools who can’t think outside of the box. Run what you want to run and screw the haters.

If you wanna shut them up, get good and whoop their butt. End of story.

You are never going to shut anyone up like that if they see your build as cheesy. There is no dishonor or problem to loose to a cheesy gimmick. It is expected and what makes it “cheesy” in the first place. That being said, not bothering with what others think is a very godd advice.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Slcrisis.6930:

The problem here is that no matter what build you play as a thief, you will always get “cheese” thrown at you because of the “TIEF OP LUL” bandwagon and people who just cannot accept the fact that maybe they were outplayed by a thief.

So it’s basically if you kill someone as a thief, you’re a noob cheese build thief, and if you get killed as a thief then you’re just a noob. It’s better to just politely offer a glass of whine in the face of a “cheese build” comment it’ll help them take it down better.

Let’s try something different since you avoid the issue. Are there thief builds you consider cheesy?

What issue am I avoiding? There are thief builds I consider to be cheesy, sure, just like there are builds I consider to be cheese for other classes. Doesn’t change the fact that when people moan about being beaten by a cheese build for any other class, you’ll mostly hear the same thing about one specific build (PU mesmer for example). Whereas a thief will get moaned at for playing “cheese evade” when he plays s/d, “back stab cheese” when he plays d/d, “condi cheese” and “blind cheese” and “SA cheese” and so on for whatever build he’s playing. And they’ll get this regardless of whether it’s a high risk/reward build or not, because the majority of players have some sort of personal issue with being beaten by a thief player. It really is just better to ignore it, laugh it off, op. I do agree that you should just play how you want regardless of what other people think or say, at the end of the day it’s them raging at the other end of the screen.

MightyMicah.7451:

You’re asking the wrong question. Instead, ask this question: Why the heck would I care what all of these idiots think of me?

Seriously. Every professional/unique gamer got there from doing whatever the heck they wanted. They didn’t listen to all the nay sayers or the fools who can’t think outside of the box. Run what you want to run and screw the haters.

If you wanna shut them up, get good and whoop their butt. End of story.

The problem isn’t that I care about what anyone says. It just came up because, wow really? There’s nothing a thief can run that isn’t considered “cheesy” as well as having a fellow thief, one of my kind, of your kind, say that to you. I thought we all came from a place of understanding!

Ario.8964:

[..] giving you a positional advantage over a thief [..]

There is no such thing as ‘positional advantage’ in terms of weapon range when the other guy can pretty much instantly gapclose more than your max range with shadowstep mechanics abuse shenanigans. Just sayin’.

o.O
Sometimes I get the impression that thieves don’t have any resources (or an infinite pool) and no CD’s on utilities/heals.
I must be doing something wrong when (once in a while) I play it.

Zero Day.2594:

o.O
Sometimes I get the impression that thieves don’t have any resources (or an infinite pool) and no CD’s on utilities/heals.
I must be doing something wrong when (once in a while) I play it.

imo, if you actually position yourself properly, theres multiple down time in which you can regenerate initiative.

and utilities are mostly used for saves and disengage, so it’s rarely touched and disengage also buy you time for CD.

withdraw is just generally a low CD heal in which you can easily cover up till it’s up again.

vespers.1759:

Lamuness.3570:

I am seriously starting to consider dropping this class that I’ve played since the beginning, and picking up something that doesn’t require a brain like, Ranger or something

hahaha always get a good laugh from a thief calling literally any other class brainless. It’s even better when they pick ranger because thief has every advantage in the world vs a ranger.

oh well.

actually, ranger counters thief. Just FYI,

even meta battle agrees…

see http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief_-_Dagger/Pistol

and check the counters section.

I have tested this too. first day on power ranger, and I’m destroying thieves who have been playing this game for years. This is in duels of course.

In Team play, thief probably soft counters 1v1. by soft counter I mean that a thief can neutralize a power ranger pretty easily in a team situations (3v3 or larger). This is because a thief, due to being highly mobile, interrupt and grief a ranger during his big bursts, then quickly mobilize back to the team fight to help and back and forth etc etc. Although, a good ranger will position himself so this doesn’t happen so easily…

Play whatever you want.

If it’s too hard for players to suck up, Anet will nerf it.

There’s something on every class that is too strong, too unpredictable or too convenient to be fair in the eyes of many players. Some players just haven’t learned that their class, inherently, is just a -bad matchup- versus specific builds. If you take every complaint to heart, you’ll end up complained out of doing anything at all in the game.

Play what works for you. Just be respectful to your opponents. If they dont like your x/x/x/x/x mainhand x offhand x build they can come here to be laughed at or request Anet nerf it.

Do not try and stop the cheese. That is impossible. Instead… only try to realize the truth. There is no cheese. Then you’ll see, that it is not the cheese that wins, it is only yourself.

Never let other people dictate what you do/don’t want to do.

You could swap from Thief, use a different build, play a different game, etc. and you’d still have someone make those sorts of comments to you.

Play what you want how you want and enjoy it.