Guild Wars 2

It’s so simple i think. before they nerfed heartseeker and combat thieves fin.

now they nerfed thief again and again.

now cloak and dagger nerfed. it is the key skill of backstabber thief. so backstab builds became % 40 useless. backstabber thieves will decrease and maybe end.

what do you want from me ANET?

I dont wanna play with crap condition builds.

You what?
Dude, come on. There are plenty of viable builds, backstab is still viable but not insta-kill as it was.

I know that earning kills with your ability can be a weird concept for someone who has always played backstab (as I am assuming reading what you wrote), but this is how this game work.

I would suggest full glass cannon thieves that are actully bothered by cnd nerf to play easier game.
Because you were not hit asmuch as EVERY other build that uses CnD. Except P/D condition build.

I don’t understand why always somebody appears and cover ANET on topics? I don’t wanna create alternatives. i set my gears for my backstab build and c&d is the key point on this build. we have already less hp because we preferred to do higher damage. why they are ruining all the time?

they say; all class are equal, your builds will be determinative.

but when a build forge ahead they are nerfing it.

anyway….

evergreen.2438:

I don’t understand why always somebody appears and cover ANET on topics? I don’t wanna create alternatives. i set my gears for my backstab build and c&d is the key point on this build. we have already less hp because we preferred to do higher damage. why they are ruining all the time?

they say; all class are equal, your builds will be determinative.

but when a build forge ahead they are nerfing it.

anyway….

Don’t take into account the less HP topic which is still a joke said by a thief.
You have the highest mobility in the game and stealth; you are able to take no damage at all if you play well.

Backstab build was overperforming all burst builds in the game, that’s the point. You are still able to run your backstab build, but a single chain now probably won’t kill your target and you have to use some other skills. Crazy, uh?

Backstab damage is the same, Mug damage is the same. Only CnD damage is 33% less (2-3k about). Will this ruin your build? I don’t think so.

sorrow.2364:

evergreen.2438:

I don’t understand why always somebody appears and cover ANET on topics? I don’t wanna create alternatives. i set my gears for my backstab build and c&d is the key point on this build. we have already less hp because we preferred to do higher damage. why they are ruining all the time?

they say; all class are equal, your builds will be determinative.

but when a build forge ahead they are nerfing it.

anyway….

Don’t take into account the less HP topic which is still a joke said by a thief.
You have the highest mobility in the game and stealth; you are able to take no damage at all if you play well.

Backstab build was overperforming all burst builds in the game, that’s the point. You are still able to run your backstab build, but a single chain now probably won’t kill your target and you have to use some other skills. Crazy, uh?

Backstab nerf wasnt too bad but other builds with dagger offhand got hit rly rly hard.
Mainy S/D

Covering Anet? Are you kidding?
Have you even considered what you’re saying might be completely exaggerated?
People are telling you fairly kindly what’s up and you act like they are protecting Anet for some reason. Good grief.

Listen to what Sorrow said.

Vile.5678:

Listen to what Sorrow said.

Sorrow is mistaken about the diminished effectiveness of the backstab combo though, it wasn’t severely weakened and is still the most potent at what it does. It was not the primary target of this round of nerfs, or at least not the primary thing affected.

I don’t think Sorrow was saying the Backstab combo was severely weakened. Unless I’m reading something incorrectly, because I agree with what you said… Which I thought Sorrow was implying to OP….

Stin.9781:

Backstab nerf wasnt too bad but other builds with dagger offhand got hit rly rly hard.
Mainy S/D

Other builds which has CnD on his bar never relied on his damage.
At least, when I play S/D I’ve never felt to use CnD to pop out damage, but only to have a cheap stealth and that’s probably what ArenaNet wants this skill to be.

Mind if i ask you which part of a 6-initiative-33%-damage-off-skill you consider CHEAP?

Kensei.6197:

Mind if i ask you which part of a 6-initiative-33%-damage-off-skill you consider CHEAP?

Probably has no recharge?
Probably you can get back 2 initiative if you have an Adept shadow art trait, so it is actually 4 initiative?

sorrow.2364:

Kensei.6197:

Mind if i ask you which part of a 6-initiative-33%-damage-off-skill you consider CHEAP?

Probably has no recharge?
Probably you can get back 2 initiative if you have an Adept shadow art trait, so it is actually 4 initiative?

Oh but it HAS recharge.6 initiative are regenerated for 10 seconds….
Imagine a skill,that has a hidden cooldown of 10 seconds ,which also is applied to all other weapon skills regardless of weapon change.

Get the picture?

ZLE.8293:

Oh but it HAS recharge.6 initiative are regenerated for 10 seconds….
Imagine a skill,that has a hidden cooldown of 10 seconds ,which also is applied to all other weapon skills regardless of weapon change.

Get the picture?

It means absolutely nothing.
First, I’ve said that it will cost only 4 initiative if you spend just 10 trait points in Shadow Arts, which are recharged in 6 seconds, without considering all the traits or skills which gives you initiative like Roll for Initiative (or any skill which stealths you if you have that trait) or Opportunist.
Second, you are still able to use that skill again if you need. It is always available, obviously if you have the right amount of initiative and that’s a great plus considering that all the stealth skill you have are locked on a cooldown.

At least, do you know what recharge means? Means that, once you used the skill, you can’t use it again for the amount of the recharge time.
This is obviously not the case of CnD because, once you used it, you are able to use it again (after the 3s revealed buff if you used backstab) if you have 6 initiative left and that means a lot.
On the other hand, if you want to play it defensively, you can just use CnD, wait for the stealth ends (3s or 4s if traited) and use CnD again, giving you great survivability and nearly permanent stealth.

You are hardly going down initiative if you build correctly around stealth.

Building around stealth? And what is the purpose of stealth in sPvP?

And guess what? Thieves are still OP. Stay tuned for more nerfs, sneaky boys.

Ichishi.9613:

Building around stealth? And what is the purpose of stealth in sPvP?

Was that sarcasm or are you actually serious?

Killshot and 100 blades were left alone and warriors actually got a buff! Lol that’s a surprise, Anet sure are pros when it comes to balancing classes!

But seriously, moral of the story: complaining on forums is a more viable strategy than learning how to play. Why try outdoing your opponent when you can just cry for fundamental gameplay changes?

Edelweiss.9815:

And guess what? Thieves are still OP. Stay tuned for more nerfs, sneaky boys.

And warriors and mesmers remain underpowered. I’m leveling my warrior in anticipation for when 100 blades no longer has a CD, is autoattack, and doesn’t root for actual free no skill kills and becomes what everyone thought thieves were.

Agemnon.4608:

But seriously, moral of the story: complaining on forums is a more viable strategy than learning how to play. Why try outdoing your opponent when you can just cry for fundamental gameplay changes?

This doesn’t make any sense, considering that the commonly complained about builds were not the ones most drastically nerfed. If anything, it shows that ANet is doing their own thing and not just following community sentiment for balancing.

Tulisin.6945:

Agemnon.4608:

But seriously, moral of the story: complaining on forums is a more viable strategy than learning how to play. Why try outdoing your opponent when you can just cry for fundamental gameplay changes?

This doesn’t make any sense, considering that the commonly complained about builds were not the ones most drastically nerfed. If anything, it shows that ANet is doing their own thing and not just following community sentiment for balancing.

Which would be a good thing, if we received any information from them about what their sentiment is. Or at least some reasoning behind the changes.

Unfortunately, without those, anyone’s free to make up their own “conclusions” as to what Anet thinks of the class, and what direction they want it to head in.

Mesmer underpowered, lmao xD

bloodymarx.9052:

Tulisin.6945:

Agemnon.4608:

But seriously, moral of the story: complaining on forums is a more viable strategy than learning how to play. Why try outdoing your opponent when you can just cry for fundamental gameplay changes?

This doesn’t make any sense, considering that the commonly complained about builds were not the ones most drastically nerfed. If anything, it shows that ANet is doing their own thing and not just following community sentiment for balancing.

Which would be a good thing, if we received any information from them about what their sentiment is. Or at least some reasoning behind the changes.

This. We need a community Q/A to get inside the dev’s heads. Feedback is a two way street, and most MMOs have realized this via developer chat events and having player representatives (EVE’s CSM, many other game’s community councils). The more ANet shares with us their vision and intent for the game, the better feedback they’ll get from the playerbase.

Teabaker.9524:

Mesmer underpowered, lmao xD

I know they aren’t by any means, which was the joke. People keep saying, “thief is OP” but ignore the strengths of the other classes. I need a weapon with vit on it and 30 points into acrobatics just to get near 16k HP whereas warriors are higher than that with their base HP, but they have no stealth (for now). I don’t mind that, since high HP and absorbing damage is a fundamental warrior mechanic, but they get so much more too: better ranged damage than rangers (okay, rangers have pets, but still), great longbow AoE, greatsword 3 is great for mobility or cutting down a line of mobs or players, axe 5 is great for farming, sword and shield have their viability, hammer knockdowns, buffs, banners, etc. And they don’t need to be in stealth and position themselves just right for their max DPS output.

You should say “oh well, it lasted more than it should”. It was CLEAR AS WATER that it was going to be nerfed from some way or another. The combo was just crap, hotjoin, grab someone who just started, BAM, to the floor. The game must be friendly for all if you want people to play it. PvP must be promoted, and if that means nerfing an insta-kill for other glass cannons, im pretty cool with that.

Sirevanac, maybe you should have actually read some of the other posts, because then you’d realize that the instagib backstab build was barely touched whereas s/d was the build primarily destroyed. And that build was not the build that was killing people in the blink of an eye.

I agree that probably CnD nerf wasn’t the best thing to do. Nerfing Mug would be way better, but anyway the backstab combo damage was lowered and that’s what matters.

evergreen.2438:

I dont wanna play with crap condition builds.

No, but necros who can transfer conditions (and have healing wells, and minions, and lifesteal…) and guardians who can wash conditions easily sure want you to.

Agemnon.4608:

And warriors and mesmers remain underpowered. I’m leveling my warrior in anticipation for when 100 blades no longer has a CD, is autoattack, and doesn’t root for actual free no skill kills and becomes what everyone thought thieves were.

Warriors and mesmers…underpowered? Since when? run in, stun, kill. done within 5 seconds. health like a building.

oh wait, they are underpowered cuz they can`t insta-kill the whole map withouth leaving the starting area?

Speaking as a backstab thief, the build is still just as viable. The nerf to CnD was a slap on the wrist, really. But I won’t stop you from moving onto another class. That just means fewer whiners like yourself who give thieves a bad name.

Only slight on topic I logged in to do the jumping puzzles on my thief and I have some how in re-equiping dagger as an off-hand have lost CnD and have to relearn it. Wonder if that is subtle hinting on someone’s part.

Yeah, I had to relearn it as well. I think they probably just replaced the ability with the new one when they where finalizing their changes.

Anyone can tell me what is glass cannon build ? I tried searching around but can’t find it. Sorry, i’m new in gw2 and Thief is my first character!

The nerf on Cloak & Dagger was needed, maybe not 50%, but it was op.
I play a Thief btw.

Radeonkid.2843:

Anyone can tell me what is glass cannon build ? I tried searching around but can’t find it. Sorry, i’m new in gw2 and Thief is my first character!

A glass cannon build is a build with all in offense like the common 25/30/0/0/15 backstab build with full berserker gear. Your only defensive options are your skills and dodges.

Elthan.5246:

Radeonkid.2843:

Anyone can tell me what is glass cannon build ? I tried searching around but can’t find it. Sorry, i’m new in gw2 and Thief is my first character!

A glass cannon build is a build with all in offense like the common 25/30/0/0/15 backstab build with full berserker gear. Your only defensive options are your skills and dodges.

Thanks!

Speaking as yet another backstab thief I had a post that was basically a little prayer before this patch praying that anet didnt balance the backstab combo by messing with CnD, sure enough……. I agree that backstab needed a nerf, any1 who says otherwise is just enjoying easy mode to much…but CnD is not just a backstab combo skill…it effects ALL offhand dagger builds. I honestly wish that backstab would just go away entirely I rather enjoyed s/d but with this nerf idk if i can change all my armor/access/weapons to a build that is now even more of a disadvantage than before. Does anet really want everyone to just run backstab ? =(

evergreen.2438:

It’s so simple i think. before they nerfed heartseeker and combat thieves fin.

now they nerfed thief again and again.

now cloak and dagger nerfed. it is the key skill of backstabber thief. so backstab builds became % 40 useless. backstabber thieves will decrease and maybe end.

what do you want from me ANET?

I dont wanna play with crap condition builds.

They want autoattacks

Lots of autoattacks

They want you doing nothing but autoattacks

Because the whiners from outside of the thief class want us doing nothing but autoattacking, and their voices are heard.

Devildoc.6721:

They want autoattacks

Lots of autoattacks

They want you doing nothing but autoattacks

Because the whiners from outside of the thief class want us doing nothing but autoattacking, and their voices are heard.

People like you make the community thinks thieves are a bunch of noobs.
Backstab build was barely untouched, it wasn’t what community asked for, so it is a clear proof that ArenaNet doesn’t give a kitten to what people say in the forums.

Stop with those kind of posts, you just make yourself look ridiculous.

sorrow.2364:

Devildoc.6721:

They want autoattacks

Lots of autoattacks

They want you doing nothing but autoattacks

Because the whiners from outside of the thief class want us doing nothing but autoattacking, and their voices are heard.

People like you make the community thinks thieves are a bunch of noobs.
Backstab build was barely untouched, it wasn’t what community asked for, so it is a clear proof that ArenaNet doesn’t give a kitten to what people say in the forums.

Stop with those kind of posts, you just make yourself look ridiculous.

Not yet, but backstab nerf is in the works, the C&D nerf was just the first step. the nerfs are coming. I actually called the DD, Cluster Bomb, and C&D nerfs.. and I’m actually sad that I was right.

Devildoc.6721:

Not yet, but backstab nerf is in the works, the C&D nerf was just the first step. the nerfs are coming. I actually called the DD, Cluster Bomb, and C&D nerfs.. and I’m actually sad that I was right.

Have you got any proof in support of what you are saying or is that your apocalyptic view of ArenaNet plans?

sorrow.2364:

I agree that probably CnD nerf wasn’t the best thing to do. Nerfing Mug would be way better, but anyway the backstab combo damage was lowered and that’s what matters.

How would nerfing Mug fix it? Mug does the least damage in combo so it’s need a large damage nerf to make a noticable dent (talking 75% nerf) and it’d need something like 120 cooldown at least to have any effect on how the BS combo is used. Only think I can think of is making Mug agument steal so that it will add a cast timer to it.

Dual.8953:

sorrow.2364:

I agree that probably CnD nerf wasn’t the best thing to do. Nerfing Mug would be way better, but anyway the backstab combo damage was lowered and that’s what matters.

How would nerfing Mug fix it?.

Because Mug is unique to the BS closer→fast kill combo. As we can see with the last patch nerfing C&D has a large amount of collateral damage in weakening other builds because C&D is used in far more situations than the BS combo.

If Mug, for instance, applied 5 bleed stacks for 10~ seconds it’d still retain most of its power and use while not putting out instant numbers to assist in an already short-TTK initiation.

C&D is not what has been causing all the QQ here in the last 2 months. If you think the nerf to C&D damage has a huge influence on the FotM build like you’re trying to imply, then you have no clue.

Every other thief build copped it much worse than the BS build, making it now the ONLY viable option. If ANet don’t correct this and bring it back in line, then there’s just no hope for GW2 or ANet.

CnD nerf was useless. It won’t change anything.
SB nerf was useless and to be honest incomprehensible. That ability is a piece of kitten in pvp mainly due to how it works (feels like a kittening longbowman in the medieval era) and in large groups you can’t even see where the kitten arrow is so you can blow it properly.
PW has been mentioned lots of times and when AA hits harder than PW something is wrong.

It’s clear to me that ANet doesn’t like thieves and are shooting blank rounds trying to nerf it to the ground. At least that’s my perception.

Sadly, they keep missing and this time they hit at least 2 specs that weren’t the target of the complaints.

To me the thief only had 2 issues. 1 has been partially fixed and I’m not going into it since it has been discussed extensively and that was haste + PW.

The other imo is the precast CnD, Mug combo. That’s what pisses off people. I mean basically with it (if you spec all out around BS) you arrive stealthed at your target while making him hit a Steal (which doesn’t hit for a low amount), possibly proccing one or both of your sigil of airs (also nerfed last patch) , getting stacks of might and being at someone’s back stealthed so you can hit a backstab fully buffed possibly with the power signet on.

So the issue is no individual skill, it’s a combo that happens to be very effective although it’s not really fun since you need lots of downtime to pull it off again.

I think BS is fine on its own. I just think the synergy between those abilities needs to be reworked. I also think Stealth by itself is fine but again the synergies allow for thieves to pull of things that piss of people.

So until ANet wants to take a deeper look at synergies this problem won’t be solved and possibly we will see further nerfs that will kill thieves a bit at a time without addressing the real issues.

Agenteusa.6380:

CnD nerf was useless. It won’t change anything.
SB nerf was useless and to be honest incomprehensible. That ability is a piece of kitten in pvp mainly due to how it works (feels like a kittening longbowman in the medieval era) and in large groups you can’t even see where the kitten arrow is so you can blow it properly.
PW has been mentioned lots of times and when AA hits harder than PW something is wrong.

It’s clear to me that ANet doesn’t like thieves and are shooting blank rounds trying to nerf it to the ground. At least that’s my perception.

Sadly, they keep missing and this time they hit at least 2 specs that weren’t the target of the complaints.

To me the thief only had 2 issues. 1 has been partially fixed and I’m not going into it since it has been discussed extensively and that was haste + PW.

The other imo is the precast CnD, Mug combo. That’s what pisses off people. I mean basically with it (if you spec all out around BS) you arrive stealthed at your target while making him hit a Steal (which doesn’t hit for a low amount), possibly proccing one or both of your sigil of airs (also nerfed last patch) , getting stacks of might and being at someone’s back stealthed so you can hit a backstab fully buffed possibly with the power signet on.

So the issue is no individual skill, it’s a combo that happens to be very effective although it’s not really fun since you need lots of downtime to pull it off again.

I think BS is fine on its own. I just think the synergy between those abilities needs to be reworked. I also think Stealth by itself is fine but again the synergies allow for thieves to pull of things that piss of people.

So until ANet wants to take a deeper look at synergies this problem won’t be solved and possibly we will see further nerfs that will kill thieves a bit at a time without addressing the real issues.

Actually, the CnD nerf made a bit of difference in the BS build.
The damage of that skill passed from 5k to 2k around, making not only the full backstab combo weaker, but also the CnD→Backstab chain.
Now it is a bit harder to kill someone with the only backstab combo, an additional heartseeker is nearly mandatory, giving the victim more time to react the burst.
Obviously it doesn’t destroy backstab build, but it was quite weakened.

Exactly for which reason if an autoattack hits harder than a certain skill something is wrong?
There are plenty of examples of autoattacks that hits harder than another skill in the same bar, but it doesn’t mean that this skill is weak.

Your perception, in my opinion, is biased. The nerf were fair, you also obtained buffs to strategic skills like smoke bomb, scoprion wire or smoke screen, so it is quite clear that ANet has no hate against your profession.

sorrow.2364:

Your perception, in my opinion, is biased. The nerf were fair, you also obtained buffs to strategic skills like smoke bomb, scoprion wire or smoke screen, so it is quite clear that ANet has no hate against your profession.

sorry, the wire that 90% of the time misses ? can you explain the buffs on the other 2 skills please ???

sorrow.2364:

The damage of that skill passed from 5k to 2k around…

I wonder, since when the 33% nerf counts as lowering the dmg of an ability from 5k dmg to 2k dmg?

STRanger.5120:

sorrow.2364:

The damage of that skill passed from 5k to 2k around…

I wonder, since when the 33% nerf counts as lowering the dmg of an ability from 5k dmg to 2k dmg?

it was a misstype, damage REDUCED TO 33%)))))

Exactly for which reason if an autoattack hits harder than a certain skill something is wrong?
There are plenty of examples of autoattacks that hits harder than another skill in the same bar, but it doesn’t mean that this skill is weak.

Your perception, in my opinion, is biased. The nerf were fair, you also obtained buffs to strategic skills like smoke bomb, scoprion wire or smoke screen, so it is quite clear that ANet has no hate against your profession.

Let me tell you I’m not biased cause I play all classes except the ranger and dedicate time to each of them. In fact the thief is not even my main.

Second I really don’t think CnD nerf makes a whole lot of change. I know my numbers it’s not because of 3k you’re going to avoid that but that is a different debate and I don’t want to go there. And if you need a HS might as well just auto attack and save the initiative (depending on how your AA hits).

The reason I think an AA should’t hit harder than PW for instance is basically cost. Why you ask, if PW has an evade and a stun. True that but in a perfect world (and god know I don’t play with Toughness or Vitality on my thief in pve for instance) I wouldn’t want to have mob attention on me. So why should I use PW if it’s situational and hits for less than a skill that costs 0 , also applies debuffs and even refunds initiative if specced?

Again, some bomb, meh, scorpion wire, even more meh since lots of mobs are linked anyway, smoke screen was a nice buff I agree. This in pve.

Pvp wise SW is quite good, smoke bomb is still a bit short imo and smoke screen is also highly situational because of positioning issues.

What I meant is not that the thief is nerfed to death at this point. We are still very good if played correctly. I just feel from past mmo experiences that we are disliked and will be given a nerf bat in the following months but that is speculation.