Guild Wars 2

Ok so as apparently CnD by itself is the reason of 95% nerfs happening to stealth and anything that is a consequence of stealth, I was thinking about something that could help with it.

First: Get rid of stealth attacks (wait, later there is a justification and compensation for this).

In first place, stealth attacks don’t make too much sense. Stealth isn’t exclusive from Thieves. Anyone can get them with combos, there are area stealths and there is another entire profession with as many stealth skills as we have. So that we get extra skills from it makes as much sense as Warriors getting new #1 skills when they have power or quickness.

These stealth attacks are part of the so many mini mechanics the Thief have to try to compensate for not having a strong single mechanic, but honestly they don’t make as much sense AND they force a lot of builds to play around those stealth attacks.

In the days of GW2Guru before the official forums opened I was on the wandagon of those who though stealth skills where a bad idea and that they would force to specific playstyles and always the same skills and builds just to get access to them (and 5- we 1- were- 1- right- 1-5).

But here is the catch: In this rework sugestion, Cloak and Dagger would become a 2 steps skills (like Cluster Bomb or Infiltrator’s Strike), where the second step would be Backstab (the whole reason a set of stealth attacks were invented in the first place as originally BS was the #2 skill). This way it would really be Cloak (hit to become invisible) and Dagger (a significative dagger strike).

So, you would ask, what’s the difference now? Well, the difference is that making it a 2 steps skill, you can make the time Backstab is ready to be pressed longer than what the stealth lasts (it still does extra damage from behind, but you’re visible for some time if you didn’t use it before). You can’t loop Cloak and Dagger with right timing for virtually perma-stealth, as you need to use step 2 of the skill (it could even get the revealed debuff by itself) and this wouldn’t change D/D playstyles that used it without exploiting.

Tadaaaaaa!! CnD loop problem solved!!

Now some sets would need a revision:

- P/D would get a hard hit from this. So here is what I would do: Make Body Shot the auto-attack (with only 1 Vuln) like it was before the introduction of stealth attacks. This way the auto-attack synergizes with Unload from P/P much better, and also gets synergy with the new state of CnD, as you can keep shooting to apply Vuln, kite melees with your third skill and when you think he got enough Vulns and you kitted his more powerful attacks go for the Cnd+BS combo.

Now the second skill leaves an open spot, and I think a spread 5-shot with 1 bleed per bullet (like Rangers #2 with the Axe, which has a 6 second recharge so it’s perfectly justified at 3 inititive) would be perfect here for some reasons. Spammable bleeds let Carrions still enjoy pistols and they could chose any offhand weapon now, in fact it would synergize a lot with Black Powder thanks to being a spread projectile that can combo multiple times and needs to be close to the opponent to be 100% effective, so P/P would get 2 very different playstiles: auto-attacks for Vuln and Unload spam (a better version of current P/P behaviour), and “in your face” with blinds and bleeds (and being multi hit it can get benefit from some traits you use for Unload). You could even get a combination of both styles depending on your opponent and P/P becomes a lot more versatile.

P/D can still go carrion thanks to the change on #2 and you would probably get more use of the dual skill to spam a lot of bleeds (without needing to go through 5-1-1-1-5) then kite your target (with a much higher spike potential of bleeds as 5-1-1 applied a constant amount of them), and it now has an open door to go Berserk thanks to the synergy of Vulns on the auto-attack, while constantly keeping your distance and kiting with 3 and 4, and access to Backstab to get the best from those Vulns when you think you’re ready to go for it and jump into melee range.

Continue on second post for character limit.

- S/D is the other heavily affected set here, as you no longer can “troll” your opponent (but that strategy is constantly being nerfed anyway). But now you get access to Backstab in your offhand, a lot more mobility than D/D with #2 (and you can get momentanely immobile opponents to use the #5). Also the fact that it can strip boons allows you to get rid of that Protection on your opponent before going for the backstab.

It would need some boost in the dual attack (that afirmation I made about being effective striping boons would need the skill to be revised as right now it isn’t very effective).

I know you get a heavy hit, but think about this: CnD would be a 2 steps skill where the second step will still be there even if you break stealth. Which means that with a short Inmob in your second skill, just for 3 extra initiative you can get a stand-still opponent for your Backstab even if he was kiting you as it’s a teleport.

It’s a heavy on initiative combo, but worth looking at it as you could become better at BS than D/D against evasive and fast opponents.

So in the process:

- We get rid of the main whine about CnD that is being able to loop it without needing to change every Stealth in the game.

- Weapon sets no longer need to be oriented to the Stealth Attack, and many of them are getting a boost specially on versatility as before they always had the same strategy (5-1-1-1-5 in most cases… yay! versatility!).

Stop. Nothing needs a re-work. Players need to simply learn how to play the game and stop whining about stealth.

It was a non-issue in the first place.

And please stop watching highlight reels of noob thieves killing upleveled people in wvw…many do this and come here complaining that “omg thief burst so OP” when they have no clue about the profession.

avilo.1942:

Stop. Nothing needs a re-work. Players need to simply learn how to play the game and stop whining about stealth.

It was a non-issue in the first place.

And please stop watching highlight reels of noob thieves killing upleveled people in wvw…many do this and come here complaining that “omg thief burst so OP” when they have no clue about the profession.

Dude, get out of your cave, many skills and mainly traits need some rework.
Especially Flanking Strike (dual skill of S/D), its damage is like pistol whip : almost the same as auto-attack. I mean wtf, now you burst with constant auto-attack? Thief got boring with many weapon sets.
It NEEDS a rework and fast. No wonder why there’s a lot of Warriors/Eles/Mesmers out there. I played Warrior, and just looked at other professions builds & traits, and you got so much more freedom in terms on how you make a build.

avilo.1942:

Stop. Nothing needs a re-work. Players need to simply learn how to play the game and stop whining about stealth.

It was a non-issue in the first place.

And please stop watching highlight reels of noob thieves killing upleveled people in wvw…many do this and come here complaining that “omg thief burst so OP” when they have no clue about the profession.

If you read what I wrote, which apparently you didn’t or decided to comment on something different after reading the title and 2 lines, I wanted to do 2 things with this: Make some Thief sets far more versatile, and stop the nerfs that are constantly comming to Stealth by attacking the problem (how CnD works right now) without affecting most of the sets (as you can still use it offensively) that use that skill and even making some of them even better (specially Pistol sets becoming more versatile).

Same happened with Haste before it was directly attacked: It was the cause of a lot of nerfs that wouldn’t be neccesary if Haste was attacked first intead of other skills (like Pistol Whip which now still has its lowered damage). I’m proposing a way to stop the bleeding by subtly changing the way it works without killing the playstyle and if in the process they can make our other sets more versatile, better.

No, I’m pretty sure he read what you wrote. It is not a good idea. At all…

and I 100% agree:
Stop. Nothing needs a re-work.

Laika.8795:

and I 100% agree:
Stop. Nothing needs a re-work.

And that’s why 99% Thief builds stick to the same rotation of attacks (boooooooooring after some months playing those sets to use most times the same 2 or 3 buttons because they simply are the best option, it would be nice to have some versatility), ignoring half our weapon skills and stealth is constantly nerfed because a single skill instead of attacking that skill.

What I said doesn’t change most sets effectiveness at all (and even makes some of them better, so this isn’t a nerf at all, it makes the Thief better overal), it only stops the perma-stealth without any change on the rest of stealths (meaning that if you don’t attack you won’t get revealed like hey plan to do in the future), and it stops stealth constantly being adressed (like this last patch increasing the revealed duration). The same happened with Haste, I just want to attack the problem directly instead of waiting for everything else to be nerfed like happened with Haste and its combos. And you’re fooling yourself if you think they won’t nerf things if people continue whining about it. I has happened before, and it will happen like it or not so better stop the main problem.

They need to stick to their guns and commit to the changes in SotG. This nerf effects nothing, except PvE thieves (which are not me, so sucks for them.)

No one is complaining that people are going stealth and then attacking. When we do that, the fight continues as normal for 3 (now 4) seconds until we do it again, and they have another chance to dodge/block/interupt/evade. Your change makes it almost impossible to hit a competent playing in the back (lack of deception) and makes waste of an entire traitline (arguably our best.)

Initially, the big problem was culling, adding potentially an extra second after we came out of stealth. That is no longer a problem. Now the big problem is “QQ the thief was losing, so he stealthed and ran!”

That is the issue that needed to be addressed. SotG fix would have done a lot to combat that, AND add counterplay to stealth. Say the thief C&D’s. He would have to make a choice— “do I attack, or do I run?” If he runs, he’s only got those couple of seconds before he’s on CD for another revealed debuff, giving ample time for his enemy to still counter this escape. Furthermore, if your enemy is smart, he could throw down some CC (lots of AOE CC) or try and keep the thieve snared throughout the fight. Then when the thief goes stealth, if he doesn’t get a chance to make his attack, he’s SOL until the debuff wears off.

Your change is poorly thought out, because it completely relegates our primary defense to a handful of utilities skills that I might not even want to take, and are on long CDs. Hell, a mesmer would have more access to stealth potentially, which is just stupid.

The only reason stealth was “broken” before was because of the culling issue in wvw. That was all.

Of course players on top of this have done and are doing their best to get anet to give in and nerf it even further when it’s a non issue.

I don’t think making it a 2 step would fix the CnD looping at all. They would just turn away from whoever they were attacking and backstab into the air to reset things, unless you made it stay on backstab until you hit something.

If you made it stay on backstab for longer than stealth lasts then people could backstab out of stealth. So even if it didn’t reset you would give them the ability to non stealth backstab every CnD then instantly restealth due to not having attacked before stealth wore off lol.

Furthermore, this is suggesting that there should only be one way to play a thief: Backstab.

Guess what? I don’t want to backstab.

Laika.8795:

Furthermore, this is suggesting that there should only be one way to play a thief: Backstab.

Guess what? I don’t want to backstab.

Except that P/P would get a huge boost so it would be very usable, P/D wouldn’t need it, just have the option (if you want, but if you prefer you go bleeds) and D/P would change (no backstab if not /D, btw I also don’t like playing backstab, I proposed this specifically with loads of options for non-backstab builds in mind).

The only set that is “forced” to backstab would be S/D but as I said that whole set needs some revision (and with the last change to revealed, S/D and P/D has been depowered by a larger margin than it seems, including PvP). The other /D sets could perfectly go Carrion or evasion. P/P would be very versatile being able to go Carrion and Berserk and using every skill on their bar.

No one is forcing anyone to play backstab.

This conversation is in the context of x/D, and yes it would absolutely pigeonhole any x/D thief to use backstab. P/D just going to auto attack and use your terrible other skills? Bleed is gone, you’d only be stacking Vuln (which would probably max at 10 stacks at best and be easily cleansed). Probably the worst idea on the forums.

lol.

So you want to change S/D from a control set to a bursty dps set? I dissapprove.

Lokheit.7943:

~snip~
First: Get rid of stealth attacks (wait, later there is a justification and compensation for this).

In first place, stealth attacks don’t make too much sense. Stealth isn’t exclusive from Thieves. Anyone can get them with combos, there are area stealths and there is another entire profession with as many stealth skills as we have. ~snip~

I disagree.

Just because other people drive cars, doesn’t make them a Race Car driver.

You get what I mean?

These stealth attacks are part of the so many mini mechanics the Thief have to try to compensate for not having a strong single mechanic, but honestly they don’t make as much sense AND they force a lot of builds to play around those stealth attacks.

Again I completely disagree. No one is “forced” to use stealth.

You can either rush in, stabby stabby, then stealth away and wait for CD.

Or you can stay in the fight longer using tactical skills (evade, dodge, shadow steps).

In the days of GW2Guru before the official forums opened I was on the wandagon of those who though stealth skills where a bad idea and that they would force to specific playstyles and always the same skills and builds just to get access to them (and 5- we 1- were- 1- right- 1-5).

Nobody was “forced”. It was attactive at the time when stealth takes advantage of culling. Now that culling is gone, the gimmicky stealth builds are gone too, so as those who rides the bandwagon.

~snip~
This way it would really be Cloak (hit to become invisible) and Dagger (a significative dagger strike).

The term “Cloak and Dagger” is derived from an attack coming from the shadows, or some one attacks and cloaks themselves after the act. The cloaking can happen either before or after the attack. The purpose is to hide the identity of the attacker.

So having the thief “cloak” then “dagger”, doesn’t makes sense either because according to you “stealth attacks don’t make too much sense” so why propose a similar mechanic?

All you did was reverse the order and encumber the Thief to perform two steps to eventually having the same result.

So, you would ask, what’s the difference now? Well, the difference is that making it a 2 steps skill, you can make the time Backstab is ready to be pressed longer than what the stealth lasts (it still does extra damage from behind, but you’re visible for some time if you didn’t use it before). You can’t loop Cloak and Dagger with right timing for virtually perma-stealth, as you need to use step 2 of the skill (it could even get the revealed debuff by itself) and this wouldn’t change D/D playstyles that used it without exploiting.

Tadaaaaaa!! CnD loop problem solved!!

Hardly a solution.

Using your idea, what’s stopping me from staying in stealth and not ever use the secondary function?

Talk about broken perma-stealth.

- P/D

Why would you need D/D if you can backstab with P/D, plus those Vulnerabilities?

Again bad idea.

Comment:
I am simply not convinced with the premise of your suggestion. You have not properly illustrated the NEED for the change, thus this change is NOT NEEDED.

I’m sorry to burst your bubbles but this will create an environment worst that the current state of the game.

You can’t just make change suggestions looking from one angle, you have to look at the big picture from different angles.

Laika.8795:

This conversation is in the context of x/D, and yes it would absolutely pigeonhole any x/D thief to use backstab. P/D just going to auto attack and use your terrible other skills? Bleed is gone, you’d only be stacking Vuln (which would probably max at 10 stacks at best and be easily cleansed). Probably the worst idea on the forums.

lol.

So then you didn’t read the opening post? Because the bleeding would be much better.

Sir Vincent III.1286 did a much better job at arguing it. I still think this has potential but I can see his point.

And bad or good idea, CnD is still the reason for most nerfs to stealth, so something has to be done with it before anything that tries to use stealth in a different way is reduced to nothing just to keep CnD at bay.