Guild Wars 2

As the titel suggest, I think that activation time + the animation of Cloak and Dagger just takes too long. I appreciate that more practice would help. But the inefficiency and the potential waste of 6 initiative on this skill might be the reason why D/P is so much more preferred over P/D or D/D. S/D is a completely different issue, due to the immobilise on infiltrator’s strike.

Cloak and Dagger takes a moment to even start the animation. The animation then takes another 0.5 seconds.

I wouldn’t mind the 0.5 seconds, but I would really like to see CaD animation trigger as soon as I activate the skill.

It’s not too much of a problem in P/D builds, because of stealing, and infil signet with CnD pre-cast every 20 and 30 seconds seconds, but I see where you’re coming from. It would probably just be too OP if madequicker, near impossible to counter

“I appreciate that more practice would help.”

Yes.. yes it would. Non issue on my D/D-S/D. I love the delay. Makes one have to pay attention to timing and positioning.

Reducing the cast time would make it nearly impossible to counter. CnD is a high risk / reward skill, as it should be. It set up backstab, which is an extremely powerful attack, therefore it should have a decent cast time so that people that have learnt the animation can be rewarded by evading the attack.

It creates some level of skill from both sides. The thief that need to learn how to land it and the enemy that need to learn the animation in order to evade it.

If you can’t land cloack and dagger, just install the training wheels like everyone else, that is, roll d/p.

Geiir.7603:

Reducing the cast time would make it nearly impossible to counter. CnD is a high risk / reward skill, as it should be. It set up backstab, which is an extremely powerful attack, therefore it should have a decent cast time so that people that have learnt the animation can be rewarded by evading the attack.

It creates some level of skill from both sides. The thief that need to learn how to land it and the enemy that need to learn the animation in order to evade it.

But the problem is CnD is no longer a high reward skill in pvp. It’s got low DPI, the vulnerability is token, and its the single worst way for a thief to enter stealth (BP->HS doesn’t need to land a hit to gain stealth and will likely hit a ranged blind on your target, and most other stealth entries are obtained automatically via utility/skill and trait usage).

There’s a couple reasons D/D has vanished in PvP compared to D/P, CnD’s comparative worthlessness being one of them. CnD (and dancing dagger) could use a small buff to bring dagger OH back into competitive play (The list below is obviously an “OR” scenario)

- Make CnD unblockable – None of the stealth attacks are unblockable, so making CnD unblockable just gives SA thieves a way to access their defensive abilities even when a target is blocking/evading/invuln
- Lower CnD cast time to .25s – less telegraphing for a 6 init move that’s already outshined by many of a thiefs other abilities.
- Revert the damage nerf – the Day of the 50% assassins sig+BV+CnD precast+steal+mug (which can no longer crit)->BS HS HS HS HS are over as far as PvP is concerned (The playerbase is more experienced, and many of the parts have been nerfed such as Assassins sig and mug) – bring CnD’s damage back to where it belongs.

Master of Timespace.2548:

If you can’t land cloack and dagger, just install the training wheels like everyone else, that is, roll d/p.

That’s a silly thing to say. Whether or not D/P is easier has no bearing on the fact that Pistol OH and D/P’s dual skill blow D/D out of the water.

Even if we ignore BP→HS for stealth (which is easier, but also stronger since it doesn’t rely on getting a hit to gain stealth), D/P still has a vastly superior dual skill (Gap closer with solid damage AND a blind over a condition based ability with a .25s evade), a ranged interrupt, and a blind AoE – nothing D/D has compares even remotely to that in a power/crit spec.

Sorry op cnd is just fine it allows for counter play, if anything dp should be brought to dd level.

vincecontix.1264:

Sorry op cnd is just fine it allows for counter play, if anything dp should be brought to dd level.

That was a well thought out response, filled with well constructed and reasonable logic to back up your opinion. It’s so unlike the blanket assertions without any sort of thought put into it that most people post on these boards that It’ll be hard to argue against this.

How would you bring d/p to d/d level without affecting S/P which is a completely different set.

If you admit more practice is needed, then please practice before you try and change a skill. Sure it isn’t the easiest thing to land (god forbid some skill is required!) but with situational awareness and practice you will land C&D reliably. Posts like these that make skills easier to execute just decrease the gap between inexperienced and experienced players. Sure d/p is easier to access stealth but it lacks the extra damage from the C&D (2-4k) and honestly is frowned upon by many.

evilapprentice.6379:

Master of Timespace.2548:

If you can’t land cloack and dagger, just install the training wheels like everyone else, that is, roll d/p.

That’s a silly thing to say. Whether or not D/P is easier has no bearing on the fact that Pistol OH and D/P’s dual skill blow D/D out of the water.

Even if we ignore BP->HS for stealth (which is easier, but also stronger since it doesn’t rely on getting a hit to gain stealth), D/P still has a vastly superior dual skill (Gap closer with solid damage AND a blind over a condition based ability with a .25s evade), a ranged interrupt, and a blind AoE – nothing D/D has compares even remotely to that in a power/crit spec.

This!
Lame kitten cripple that is way too short and does too little damage.
Jumping attack that sucks as damage mitigation, deals less damage than auto attacking and apply far crappier condition than auto-attack (poison vs. bleed) and cost initiative to boot.

Lack of interupt.

Lack of effective gap closer above 50%.

Costly stealth skill that is utterly slow an unreliable. Subject to multiple CC that’s currently the meta that renders you dead before you could even land a clean hit. Hello fear spam, cripple spam, chilling spam. The irony is that you want to enter stealth to cleanse condi, but now you can’t. Sure there’s steal, stun breaker etc, but are you really gonna blow through them just so you can use CnD? What about saving them for when you really need them? Not to mention the slow recharge rate of those skills.

D/D sucks for all of the reasons above. In S/D the D offhand is actually still functional because sword 1 cripples, sword 2 immobilize those make it much easier to land CnD. And even if you fail to enter into steal it’s not all lost since you’ve evade on 3.

D/D is just a poor weapon set, period. It’s been overnerfed to account for the insta-glib builds that were once the meta for thieves. Since then, the meta has moved. Most players are in Rabid, have tons of health, armor and regeneration.

Most of the fight with D/D thieves usually degenerate into HS spam, because they couldn’t land a clean CnD hit – so they’re out of initiative. DB and Dancing Dag are useless, so that leaves HS – which’s cheap enough, so heck why not spam it. Defending D/D and CnD is part of what caused the HS spam complaint and the degenerative play style that follows.

Nex.2450:

If you admit more practice is needed, then please practice before you try and change a skill. Sure it isn’t the easiest thing to land (god forbid some skill is required!) but with situational awareness and practice you will land C&D reliably. Posts like these that make skills easier to execute just decrease the gap between inexperienced and experienced players. Sure d/p is easier to access stealth but it lacks the extra damage from the C&D (2-4k) and honestly is frowned upon by many.

Lol let’s set up a duel between your D/D thief and any D/P thief and let’s see how you fare.

Honestly have you not seen the new meta, where every sort of condition is being spammed ad infinitum? This is the catch 22 for any D/D thief, to cleanse condition you need to enter stealth, but to enter stealth you need to first cleanse condition.

Not to mention evade, block, which is easy coz of the short attak range of dagger and slow kitten cast time. Even if you learn to time it and use shadow step to make it more reliable, you lose a lot of sustain, and utility, all for measly 1.5k more damage and an extra init? I think not.

Then there’s lag, which’s completely out of your control. And I have been noticing an increasing amount of that is sPvP with a few occasional rubber banding effect.

TBH it needs the cast time for counter play. Any quicker and you’ll see the Op screams get louder. I personally think it is fine as is. DD needs some buffs but this is not one of them.

There’s plenty of counter in the meta as is.

AoE CC and condition kills BS thief. All of which are highly popular and those players don’t even need to position, while the BS thief does.

High health and armor, which basically counters the zerker build. Again plenty common these days with the popularity of rabid gears.

Thief gap closer skills are what made the fast, in stealth thief has to choose between, blowing their stealth with a gap closer or BS. And frankly w/o gap closers, other classes are able to maintain higher combat speed due to access to swiftness. Again it makes landing BS, harder.

So simply buffing CnD isn’t going to make thief overwhelming all of a sudden. The greatest trick is in landing the back stab and that’s still not guaranteed.

I think it’s fine. The animation is not over exaggerated and it can be hard to tell from a normal AA.

The CnD delay makes it amazing for D/D thieves because we precast it with steal resulting in CnD and Steal hitting the target in the same time stamp.

Reducing the delay would actually nerf our front loaded burst (which is all thieves are good for anyways, honestly any other class can do anything else 100x better than thieves)

Zepidel.5349:

The CnD delay makes it amazing for D/D thieves because we precast it with steal resulting in CnD and Steal hitting the target in the same time stamp.

Reducing the delay would actually nerf our front loaded burst (which is all thieves are good for anyways, honestly any other class can do anything else 100x better than thieves)

Makes sense, then may be less init, or higher damage or a combination of those.

Although if it lands faster, you may not need to blow steal, which’s usually a 35 sec downtime. Something like HS -> CnD might become a lot more usable. Heck even changing the order Steal -> CnD will work. It opens up a lot more diversity in combos than relying on Mug which has been quad-nerfed at this point.

Bud.5617:

Zepidel.5349:

The CnD delay makes it amazing for D/D thieves because we precast it with steal resulting in CnD and Steal hitting the target in the same time stamp.

Reducing the delay would actually nerf our front loaded burst (which is all thieves are good for anyways, honestly any other class can do anything else 100x better than thieves)

Makes sense, then may be less init, or higher damage or a combination of those.

Although if it lands faster, you may not need to blow steal, which’s usually a 35 sec downtime. Something like HS -> CnD might become a lot more usable. Heck even changing the order Steal -> CnD will work. It opens up a lot more diversity in combos than relying on Mug which has been quad-nerfed at this point.

It only works with steal because steal doesn’t proc a global cooldown. If you tried to precast CnD then HS, the HS would cancel the CnD cast.

Stealing then casting CnD is a waste of ~1 second.

What about CnD giving an evade effect and positioning the thief behind the start and then enters stealth? Quicker stealth and set up your BS. DD would become slightly more defensive also.

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

What about CnD giving an evade effect and positioning the thief behind the start and then enters stealth? Quicker stealth and set up your BS. DD would become slightly more defensive also.

If you want CnD to be more defensive, it should ignore block.

Random thief hater – “You already have LS, now you want CnD to ignore block? Rabble rabble rabble!”

Well, imaginary person, CnD is the perfect skill to have ignore block for defensive reasons. All of SA’s best defensive skills are based around going into stealth. CnD already does extremely poor DPI (Damage per Initiative), and it doesn’t set up any further block busting skills – Tactical strike, BS, Sneak attack, and trick shot are all stopped by block. By allowing CnD to ignore block, you’re allowing SA focused thieves to access their defensive mechanic when their opponent use their defensive mechanics, without giving them any additional offensive advantage.

evilapprentice.6379:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

What about CnD giving an evade effect and positioning the thief behind the start and then enters stealth? Quicker stealth and set up your BS. DD would become slightly more defensive also.

If you want CnD to be more defensive, it should ignore block.

Random thief hater – “You already have LS, now you want CnD to ignore block? Rabble rabble rabble!”

Well, imaginary person, CnD is the perfect skill to have ignore block for defensive reasons. All of SA’s best defensive skills are based around going into stealth. CnD already does extremely poor DPI (Damage per Initiative), and it doesn’t set up any further block busting skills – Tactical strike, BS, Sneak attack, and trick shot are all stopped by block. By allowing CnD to ignore block, you’re allowing SA focused thieves to access their defensive mechanic when their opponent use their defensive mechanics, without giving them any additional offensive advantage.

no, it’s already annoying enough to fight thieves/mesmers who can just run away whenever they start losing.

Zepidel.5349:

evilapprentice.6379:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

What about CnD giving an evade effect and positioning the thief behind the start and then enters stealth? Quicker stealth and set up your BS. DD would become slightly more defensive also.

If you want CnD to be more defensive, it should ignore block.

Random thief hater – “You already have LS, now you want CnD to ignore block? Rabble rabble rabble!”

Well, imaginary person, CnD is the perfect skill to have ignore block for defensive reasons. All of SA’s best defensive skills are based around going into stealth. CnD already does extremely poor DPI (Damage per Initiative), and it doesn’t set up any further block busting skills – Tactical strike, BS, Sneak attack, and trick shot are all stopped by block. By allowing CnD to ignore block, you’re allowing SA focused thieves to access their defensive mechanic when their opponent use their defensive mechanics, without giving them any additional offensive advantage.

no, it’s already annoying enough to fight thieves/mesmers who can just run away whenever they start losing.

A) What you find annoying is a poor metric for balance. In fact, it’s entirely worthless as a metric for balance. I find things annoying to fight as well, it doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be in the game.

B) Even if we ignore point A, D/P does this better already – hell, you can aim the HS directly away to open a huge gap at the start of the fight! Inf arrow is also a much better expenditure of Init for running away. The thief would have to close to melee just to get the CnD to hit (and you’ve always still got the option to dodge).

evilapprentice.6379:

Zepidel.5349:

evilapprentice.6379:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

What about CnD giving an evade effect and positioning the thief behind the start and then enters stealth? Quicker stealth and set up your BS. DD would become slightly more defensive also.

If you want CnD to be more defensive, it should ignore block.

Random thief hater – “You already have LS, now you want CnD to ignore block? Rabble rabble rabble!”

Well, imaginary person, CnD is the perfect skill to have ignore block for defensive reasons. All of SA’s best defensive skills are based around going into stealth. CnD already does extremely poor DPI (Damage per Initiative), and it doesn’t set up any further block busting skills – Tactical strike, BS, Sneak attack, and trick shot are all stopped by block. By allowing CnD to ignore block, you’re allowing SA focused thieves to access their defensive mechanic when their opponent use their defensive mechanics, without giving them any additional offensive advantage.

no, it’s already annoying enough to fight thieves/mesmers who can just run away whenever they start losing.

A) What you find annoying is a poor metric for balance. In fact, it’s entirely worthless as a metric for balance. I find things annoying to fight as well, it doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be in the game.

B) Even if we ignore point A, D/P does this better already – hell, you can aim the HS directly away to open a huge gap at the start of the fight! Inf arrow is also a much better expenditure of Init for running away. The thief would have to close to melee just to get the CnD to hit (and you’ve always still got the option to dodge).

I find people who think 2+2 is 5 are annoying, I find people who deny the holocaust annoying. Just because I described it as an annoyance doesn’t make it any less true.

In your “B)” you seem to assume people don’t have ranged capabilities, and that thieves have unlimited ini. The main draw to stealth is juking (running to were the persons camera is most likely not panned to, and dropping target) Somthing you can not do with inf Arrow or hopping around with HS (which will auto target 1/2 the time and do way more harm then good)

Zepidel.5349:

evilapprentice.6379:

Zepidel.5349:

evilapprentice.6379:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

What about CnD giving an evade effect and positioning the thief behind the start and then enters stealth? Quicker stealth and set up your BS. DD would become slightly more defensive also.

If you want CnD to be more defensive, it should ignore block.

Random thief hater – “You already have LS, now you want CnD to ignore block? Rabble rabble rabble!”

Well, imaginary person, CnD is the perfect skill to have ignore block for defensive reasons. All of SA’s best defensive skills are based around going into stealth. CnD already does extremely poor DPI (Damage per Initiative), and it doesn’t set up any further block busting skills – Tactical strike, BS, Sneak attack, and trick shot are all stopped by block. By allowing CnD to ignore block, you’re allowing SA focused thieves to access their defensive mechanic when their opponent use their defensive mechanics, without giving them any additional offensive advantage.

no, it’s already annoying enough to fight thieves/mesmers who can just run away whenever they start losing.

A) What you find annoying is a poor metric for balance. In fact, it’s entirely worthless as a metric for balance. I find things annoying to fight as well, it doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be in the game.

B) Even if we ignore point A, D/P does this better already – hell, you can aim the HS directly away to open a huge gap at the start of the fight! Inf arrow is also a much better expenditure of Init for running away. The thief would have to close to melee just to get the CnD to hit (and you’ve always still got the option to dodge).

I find people who think 2+2 is 5 are annoying, I find people who deny the holocaust annoying. Just because I described it as an annoyance doesn’t make it any less true.

In your “B)” you seem to assume people don’t have ranged capabilities, and that thieves have unlimited ini. The main draw to stealth is juking (running to were the persons camera is most likely not panned to, and dropping target) Somthing you can do with inf Arrow or hopping around with HS (which will auto target 1/2 the time and do way more harm then good)

Whats the point of your first paragraph? Re-iterating that it’s annoying? What annoys you is ineligible as a basis for balance, pure and simple.

Your second paragraph doesn’t make any sense – Inf arrow and BP→HS are still better for escaping than a point blank CnD. HS only auto-targets when you have the option set, so the player is in control of whether or not they HS toward or away from a target at all times. Inf arrow builds up a huge distance – any class that close that gap is going to have an even easier time catching up to a thief who’s escape option is “CnD through block then run away”.

All that is pointless anyway – you’re only argument is “CnD shouldn’t hit through block because it would annoy me”, and as we’ve discussed, that’s not an applicable argument.

evilapprentice.6379:

Zepidel.5349:

evilapprentice.6379:

Zepidel.5349:

evilapprentice.6379:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

What about CnD giving an evade effect and positioning the thief behind the start and then enters stealth? Quicker stealth and set up your BS. DD would become slightly more defensive also.

If you want CnD to be more defensive, it should ignore block.

Random thief hater – “You already have LS, now you want CnD to ignore block? Rabble rabble rabble!”

Well, imaginary person, CnD is the perfect skill to have ignore block for defensive reasons. All of SA’s best defensive skills are based around going into stealth. CnD already does extremely poor DPI (Damage per Initiative), and it doesn’t set up any further block busting skills – Tactical strike, BS, Sneak attack, and trick shot are all stopped by block. By allowing CnD to ignore block, you’re allowing SA focused thieves to access their defensive mechanic when their opponent use their defensive mechanics, without giving them any additional offensive advantage.

no, it’s already annoying enough to fight thieves/mesmers who can just run away whenever they start losing.

A) What you find annoying is a poor metric for balance. In fact, it’s entirely worthless as a metric for balance. I find things annoying to fight as well, it doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be in the game.

B) Even if we ignore point A, D/P does this better already – hell, you can aim the HS directly away to open a huge gap at the start of the fight! Inf arrow is also a much better expenditure of Init for running away. The thief would have to close to melee just to get the CnD to hit (and you’ve always still got the option to dodge).

I find people who think 2+2 is 5 are annoying, I find people who deny the holocaust annoying. Just because I described it as an annoyance doesn’t make it any less true.

In your “B)” you seem to assume people don’t have ranged capabilities, and that thieves have unlimited ini. The main draw to stealth is juking (running to were the persons camera is most likely not panned to, and dropping target) Somthing you can do with inf Arrow or hopping around with HS (which will auto target 1/2 the time and do way more harm then good)

Whats the point of your first paragraph? Re-iterating that it’s annoying? What annoys you is ineligible as a basis for balance, pure and simple.

Your second paragraph doesn’t make any sense – Inf arrow and BP->HS are still better for escaping than a point blank CnD. HS only auto-targets when you have the option set, so the player is in control of whether or not they HS toward or away from a target at all times. Inf arrow builds up a huge distance – any class that close that gap is going to have an even easier time catching up to a thief who’s escape option is “CnD through block then run away”.

All that is pointless anyway – you’re only argument is “CnD shouldn’t hit through block because it would annoy me”, and as we’ve discussed, that’s not an applicable argument.

The point of my 1st paragraph is just because someone finds something annoying doesn’t mean you get to disregard any merit it has.

CnD shouldn’t hit through block because thieves already have enough escapes and mitigation, it would be a massive waste of a buff (ppl would cry "omg thief buff!! this is crazy they are OP! when in reality it really doesn’t do anything to help us) Its like wasting one our freebies on something we don’t need.

Whats really pointless is this entire thread and this argument, because anet will never consider an iota of anything posted in this thread.

Zepidel.5349:

evilapprentice.6379:

Zepidel.5349:

evilapprentice.6379:

Zepidel.5349:

evilapprentice.6379:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

What about CnD giving an evade effect and positioning the thief behind the start and then enters stealth? Quicker stealth and set up your BS. DD would become slightly more defensive also.

If you want CnD to be more defensive, it should ignore block.

Random thief hater – “You already have LS, now you want CnD to ignore block? Rabble rabble rabble!”

Well, imaginary person, CnD is the perfect skill to have ignore block for defensive reasons. All of SA’s best defensive skills are based around going into stealth. CnD already does extremely poor DPI (Damage per Initiative), and it doesn’t set up any further block busting skills – Tactical strike, BS, Sneak attack, and trick shot are all stopped by block. By allowing CnD to ignore block, you’re allowing SA focused thieves to access their defensive mechanic when their opponent use their defensive mechanics, without giving them any additional offensive advantage.

no, it’s already annoying enough to fight thieves/mesmers who can just run away whenever they start losing.

A) What you find annoying is a poor metric for balance. In fact, it’s entirely worthless as a metric for balance. I find things annoying to fight as well, it doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be in the game.

B) Even if we ignore point A, D/P does this better already – hell, you can aim the HS directly away to open a huge gap at the start of the fight! Inf arrow is also a much better expenditure of Init for running away. The thief would have to close to melee just to get the CnD to hit (and you’ve always still got the option to dodge).

I find people who think 2+2 is 5 are annoying, I find people who deny the holocaust annoying. Just because I described it as an annoyance doesn’t make it any less true.

In your “B)” you seem to assume people don’t have ranged capabilities, and that thieves have unlimited ini. The main draw to stealth is juking (running to were the persons camera is most likely not panned to, and dropping target) Somthing you can do with inf Arrow or hopping around with HS (which will auto target 1/2 the time and do way more harm then good)

Whats the point of your first paragraph? Re-iterating that it’s annoying? What annoys you is ineligible as a basis for balance, pure and simple.

Your second paragraph doesn’t make any sense – Inf arrow and BP->HS are still better for escaping than a point blank CnD. HS only auto-targets when you have the option set, so the player is in control of whether or not they HS toward or away from a target at all times. Inf arrow builds up a huge distance – any class that close that gap is going to have an even easier time catching up to a thief who’s escape option is “CnD through block then run away”.

All that is pointless anyway – you’re only argument is “CnD shouldn’t hit through block because it would annoy me”, and as we’ve discussed, that’s not an applicable argument.

The point of my 1st paragraph is just because someone finds something annoying doesn’t mean you get to disregard any merit it has.

CnD shouldn’t hit through block because thieves already have enough escapes and mitigation, it would be a massive waste of a buff (ppl would cry "omg thief buff!! this is crazy they are OP! when in reality it really doesn’t do anything to help us) Its like wasting one our freebies on something we don’t need.

Whats really pointless is this entire thread and this argument, because anet will never consider an iota of anything posted in this thread.

I don’t think it was pointless. CnD got the short end of the stick during the last thief witch hunt. Buff the kitten thing.

Too much init, too little benefits. Shortening the cast time also makes precasting unnecessary. I’m sure ANET didn’t design the skills with pre-casting in mind. Let people use it the way it’s meant to be ie. by queuing up the attack, and that means steal first, then CnD. If you want to you can still press both buttons at the same time, you’d still lose nothing.

And yeah sorry that it’s annoying you, but that’s sorta irrelevant to the discussion. The general user of the skill definitely thinks the skill is lacking, especially in D/D configuration.

Bud.5617:

Zepidel.5349:

evilapprentice.6379:

Zepidel.5349:

evilapprentice.6379:

Zepidel.5349:

evilapprentice.6379:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

What about CnD giving an evade effect and positioning the thief behind the start and then enters stealth? Quicker stealth and set up your BS. DD would become slightly more defensive also.

If you want CnD to be more defensive, it should ignore block.

Random thief hater – “You already have LS, now you want CnD to ignore block? Rabble rabble rabble!”

Well, imaginary person, CnD is the perfect skill to have ignore block for defensive reasons. All of SA’s best defensive skills are based around going into stealth. CnD already does extremely poor DPI (Damage per Initiative), and it doesn’t set up any further block busting skills – Tactical strike, BS, Sneak attack, and trick shot are all stopped by block. By allowing CnD to ignore block, you’re allowing SA focused thieves to access their defensive mechanic when their opponent use their defensive mechanics, without giving them any additional offensive advantage.

no, it’s already annoying enough to fight thieves/mesmers who can just run away whenever they start losing.

A) What you find annoying is a poor metric for balance. In fact, it’s entirely worthless as a metric for balance. I find things annoying to fight as well, it doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be in the game.

B) Even if we ignore point A, D/P does this better already – hell, you can aim the HS directly away to open a huge gap at the start of the fight! Inf arrow is also a much better expenditure of Init for running away. The thief would have to close to melee just to get the CnD to hit (and you’ve always still got the option to dodge).

I find people who think 2+2 is 5 are annoying, I find people who deny the holocaust annoying. Just because I described it as an annoyance doesn’t make it any less true.

In your “B)” you seem to assume people don’t have ranged capabilities, and that thieves have unlimited ini. The main draw to stealth is juking (running to were the persons camera is most likely not panned to, and dropping target) Somthing you can do with inf Arrow or hopping around with HS (which will auto target 1/2 the time and do way more harm then good)

Whats the point of your first paragraph? Re-iterating that it’s annoying? What annoys you is ineligible as a basis for balance, pure and simple.

Your second paragraph doesn’t make any sense – Inf arrow and BP->HS are still better for escaping than a point blank CnD. HS only auto-targets when you have the option set, so the player is in control of whether or not they HS toward or away from a target at all times. Inf arrow builds up a huge distance – any class that close that gap is going to have an even easier time catching up to a thief who’s escape option is “CnD through block then run away”.

All that is pointless anyway – you’re only argument is “CnD shouldn’t hit through block because it would annoy me”, and as we’ve discussed, that’s not an applicable argument.

The point of my 1st paragraph is just because someone finds something annoying doesn’t mean you get to disregard any merit it has.

CnD shouldn’t hit through block because thieves already have enough escapes and mitigation, it would be a massive waste of a buff (ppl would cry "omg thief buff!! this is crazy they are OP! when in reality it really doesn’t do anything to help us) Its like wasting one our freebies on something we don’t need.

Whats really pointless is this entire thread and this argument, because anet will never consider an iota of anything posted in this thread.

I don’t think it was pointless. CnD got the short end of the stick during the last thief witch hunt. Buff the kitten thing.

Too much init, too little benefits. Shortening the cast time also makes precasting unnecessary. I’m sure ANET didn’t design the skills with pre-casting in mind. Let people use it the way it’s meant to be ie. by queuing up the attack, and that means steal first, then CnD. If you want to you can still press both buttons at the same time, you’d still lose nothing.

And yeah sorry that it’s annoying you, but that’s sorta irrelevant to the discussion. The general user of the skill definitely thinks the skill is lacking, especially in D/D configuration.

Like i said earlier, messing with CnD isn’t necessary, If you are not already precasting it then your not using it to its full potential. If you goes through block, guess what your backstab gets blocked since its next, i know this is about the def aspect but the short time on it makes its pretty useless compared to a SR retreat.

Thieves need better utilities (venoms are the worst things in the entire game period) or a p/p rework.

Zepidel.5349:

Like i said earlier, messing with CnD isn’t necessary, If you are not already precasting it then your not using it to its full potential. If you goes through block, guess what your backstab gets blocked since its next, i know this is about the def aspect but the short time on it makes its pretty useless compared to a SR retreat.

Thieves need better utilities (venoms are the worst things in the entire game period) or a p/p rework.

Oh good, an ability that is only usable with our class skill and 1 utility for precasting – how wonderful for a weaponset already plagued by Underpowered weaponset skills.

CnD and Dancing Dagger both need buffs (probably minor) if D/D is ever going to be good for anything that isn’t DB spam (which is already a kittenty spec). It’s inferior in every single way to D/P
- DB is useless for a power/crit spec
- Dancing dagger’s travel time is so slow I’ve seen it miss near stationary targets
- CnD does crap damage for its initiative cost, and is the worst way to enter stealth.

That’s just looking at D/D btw. Compare it D/P and you quickly notice how much better Shadow shot is at closing gaps when your target is over 50% (lets also note that tactically using SS to blind a big swing for a target can be more beneficial than HS, even when the DPI is lower), how useful a ranged interrupt is, and how indespensable an AoE blind cloud is.

Your assertion that CnD doesn’t need work is incorrect for the above reasons.

I do agree that venoms and P/P need some love as well (They’re “more” worthless than D/D, but D/D is still useless enough to be completely overshadowed by D/P in every way), but that doesn’t change the fact that Dagger offhand (mainly with D/D) needs some love as well.

I don’t think CnD buffs would be the answer for D/D viability (it will also be potentially an unneeded buff for S/D which is already strong as it is). Same with nerfing D/P hitting on S/P which is one of the most balanced sets currently for a thief (nothing amazing – I WIN – can’t see me while I kill you or can’t hit me while I kill you, but still having good staying power and damage potential).

You could simply tune D/P by making HS cost double initiative when used without hitting a target – that if the 9s stealth field+leap combo is the real problem here (which I don’t find it to be a problem personally, and I don’t play D/P).

For D/D you could make DB steal buffs. And it would work much better than current FS>LS, because you can’t spam DB then still have initiative to land CnD. This would give an option to D/D to get rid of stability / aegis (blocks remain as they are and this is good for planning your CnD instead of just using it without any awareness) but at cost of Dps, unlike FS>LS, as well as making the 3 skill more desirable for power builds.

Thoughts?

Anelyn.4593:

I don’t think CnD buffs would be the answer for D/D viability (it will also be potentially an unneeded buff for S/D which is already strong as it is). Same with nerfing D/P hitting on S/P which is one of the most balanced sets currently for a thief (nothing amazing – I WIN – can’t see me while I kill you or can’t hit me while I kill you, but still having good staying power and damage potential).

You could simply tune D/P by making HS cost double initiative when used without hitting a target – that if the 9s stealth field+leap combo is the real problem here (which I don’t find it to be a problem personally, and I don’t play D/P).

For D/D you could make DB steal buffs. And it would work much better than current FS>LS, because you can’t spam DB then still have initiative to land CnD. This would give an option to D/D to get rid of stability / aegis (blocks remain as they are and this is good for planning your CnD instead of just using it without any awareness) but at cost of Dps, unlike FS>LS, as well as making the 3 skill more desirable for power builds.

Thoughts?

This is an extremely poor suggestion, IMO.

You’re talking about taking D/D’s only gap closer, and making it cost DOUBLE the initiative – every time your target is immune, out of range, evading, or blocking. Even if your suggestion would count immune/evade/block as “hitting a target”, you’re still killing a Power/crit builds only gap closer. This would make D/P slightly worse, and D/D even worse than it is now. Off topic, If you’re looking to limit D/P’s HS->BS interaction, there’s a ton of better ways to do that – as an example, have HS->BS last 1 more second base, have it interact with meld with shadows properly finally, and then give it a 4s ICD – no more multiple leaps through BP, and now the stealth for 1 leap lasts a respectable amount of time.

Your DB suggestion isn’t an awful one, but it still doesn’t address the inequities between D/P and D/D. D/P still has the infinitely better gap closer (SS), which can be used for well timed tactical blinds. It still has a ranged interrupt for canceling heals/important skills. It still has superior survivability thanks to BP. DB stealing boons wouldn’t work “Much better” than FS/LS because it doesn’t contribute to D/D’s playstyle. FS/LS work with S/D because they steal boons, and they help define the playstyle – Dodgy, sustained direct damage. DB stealing boons would “tack it on” to D/D’s playstyle since the only reason you’d ever use it is to steal boons – the actual damage would be awful, and the evade is pointless at .25s.
Even if DB stole boons, in the current evade/CC heavy meta, D/D would be a joke compared to D/P

You misread it. It costs double if you have no target selected. If you have a target selected, no matter if the target is immune, blocks, out of line of sight or range w/e, it costs same.

I personally have no gripe whatsoever with any of the thief weapon sets, it’s obvious some sets simply are far behind their purpose and outside of roleplaying or doing cool flips theres nothing at it. It’s same for other classes in this regard, some MH or OH are underwhelming compared to other sets (or simpler said, they make no sense, because the hybrid condi / power / cdamage / crit chance is a myth with game mechanics / itemization).

Bud.5617:

Lol let’s set up a duel between your D/D thief and any D/P thief and let’s see how you fare.

Honestly have you not seen the new meta, where every sort of condition is being spammed ad infinitum? This is the catch 22 for any D/D thief, to cleanse condition you need to enter stealth, but to enter stealth you need to first cleanse condition.

Not to mention evade, block, which is easy coz of the short attak range of dagger and slow kitten cast time. Even if you learn to time it and use shadow step to make it more reliable, you lose a lot of sustain, and utility, all for measly 1.5k more damage and an extra init? I think not.

Then there’s lag, which’s completely out of your control. And I have been noticing an increasing amount of that is sPvP with a few occasional rubber banding effect.

Lets realize that not everyone who has offhand dagger plays D/D GC thieves. I play a P/D thief and still beat D/P thieves even though they are a direct counter to P/D.

Firstly, C&D is not the only way to enter stealth, you have utilities and a steal. Plus, you can predict where they are in stealth and C&D off them. Secondly, making the animation faster is in no way going to help you stop the thief from BP + HS stealthing, or land a hit on them in their blind field – you need an interrupt. Thirdly, lag affect all skills, it doesn’t matter the cast time of the skill, it will still occur at a different time than you wanted it to.

PS – Lets stick to the facts and not downplay the damage from C&D. It is much more than 1.5k on a GC thief when it crits (which is more often than not). Hell, even I get 1.5k-2k on my condition thief.

CnD is fine if it was to fast it just be to easy to win as thief honestly.