This is not a flame post, I just need to understand how this happened
and how I can better counter it.
I was running in WvW as a Staff Ele and was jumped by a Thief. I saw
him go stealth, but never saw him come out of it during the assault.
After getting burned down, I checked the combat log, and I was hit
4 times in a row with Cloak and Dagger. I took a screen shot if anyone
wants to inform me how to post it.
How did he get 4 off with the cost of that ability, and never left stealth?
“In a row” is deceptive. If he was just timing C&D to be used every time stealth dropped then you’d see 4 C&Ds “in a row” but over a >10 second period. And honestly over 10 seconds the cost of C&D isn’t that bad, especially since a successful C&D can be traited to refund some of the cost. At that point C&D can be made initiative stable which means you could do an unlimited number “in a row”, it’d just be over a long timeframe.
The problem with people’s initiative calculations is usually that they say “that’d cost >20 initiative and thieves only have 12-15!” when they’re talking about a period so long that the thieves’ effective initiative pool is really much higher thanks to regeneration. If you’re talking about a 30 second fight the thief doesn’t have 15~ initiative to burn, they have 45~.
yeah, sounds like he just timed CnD to hit just as stealth wore off. with proper timing that takes around 10-13 seconds depending on whether or not they invested 15 points in shadow arts. with other talents it can not only refund points on a hit as Tulisin already said, they can recover initiative faster in stealth and get an extra 3 initiative per 10 seconds through traits and signets. so it was totally possible in that time frame. did he use any other abilities or did he just CnD you down?
Here you go, thanks. It probably was over 8-10 seconds, hard to say. I just
want to confirm it was possible.
Definitely possible, assume the thief only has a pool of 12, even.
0 seconds – Thief hits with C&D for 6 init, gains 2 back from init-on-stealth trait. Thief is at 8 initiative.
3 seconds – Thief hits with C&D again as revealed wears off, thief has regenerated 3 stealth during those 3 seconds so he’s at 11, C&D’s net cost of 4 brings him back to 7.
6 seconds – Repeat, thief is at 6 initiative (same calc as before, 5 gained, 6 lost)
9 seconds – You get the idea. Thief lands the 4th C&D at the 9~ second mark and has 5 initiative left.
There a couple traits the thief could also use to actively increase initiative, and if those C&D crit they could also grant another initiative point via a passive trait, but the only things really necessary are fairly standard stealth traits.
Edit: Forgot a thief running those traits would have 4 second stealth, but you get the idea.
Thunderbrew, this tactic requires a very specific rhythm to be pulled off (Cloak and Daggers need to be almost exactly 3 or 4 seconds apart)
If you can figure out the rhythm, you can dodge/block the Cloak and Dagger and make the Thief retreat (Cloak and Dagger eats a lot more initiative if it misses). You should also retreat to a safe spot (like within your zerg) so that if the Thief insists on pursuing you, you have 10+ allies there to save you.
What I would do in your situation is wait for him to hit me with CnD, wait 3 seconds, dodge or use some sort of mobility/teleport/block and let him waste his initiative :P
Yesterday I did same with some guy on an active catapult besides the zerg asaulting tower. Some ppl get so excited when using siege equipment they dont see whats going on with their HP. Just wanted to share my opness with you all, cya.
Don’t mean to offend OP, but you are a walking badge with your hp total. You seem cool, what with coming here to ask a question and then using the information instead of complaining and asking for a nerf, so I’m assuming you will utilize any good advice. So, hopefully, you’ll get that number up.
Don’t mean to offend OP, but you are a walking badge with your hp total. You seem cool, what with coming here to ask a question and then using the information instead of complaining and asking for a nerf, so I’m assuming you will utilize any good advice. So, hopefully, you’ll get that number up.
Go to the Ele forums, Im a glass cannon staff user and its the only way I play. Most
people cannot handle that playstlye since they have zero map awareness. I have
a leveled warrior, Ele and soon to be thief, but the Staff Ele is what I enjoy the
most because there are so FEW good ones.
Thiefs I have very little defense against, when they cactch me off guard.but they normally dont ever catch me in open since I switch out to dagger for Ride the Lightning when traveling. I have zero problem getting toasted by a thief even when they do 9k backstabs. I have no extra toughness and its expected.
If it wasnt for mesmer portaling and culling issues, I could handle the attacks
many of the times. This is the one main issue (as you all know) that I hope gets
fixed, but Im not holding my breath.
Once you see what a GC staff AOE rotation of 3-4 skills do on a group of people, you can never go back, lol.
The more funny thing is that today i was stabing some guy in my nerdbloodlust state that usually gets me killed when i realised that im actually in a middle of enemy zerg, that was INVISIBLE for me. And then the wind suddenly start blowing. But w/e its only thiefs that benefit from culling.
now, replace 5 with whatever skill you use to deal with melee attackers.
when you take a C&D…
wait…wait…wait…
repulse/block/smash
This is how you effectively deal with a permastealth troll. If you’re getting killed by these people be sad, since the nerf C&D does absolutely pathetic damage if used as the only damage source.
now, replace 5 with whatever skill you use to deal with melee attackers.
when you take a C&D…
wait…wait…wait…
repulse/block/smash
This is how you effectively deal with a permastealth troll. If you’re getting killed by these people be sad, since the nerf C&D does absolutely pathetic damage if used as the only damage source.
Blocking C&D does not prevent the stealth, and the thief can still blind you with a trait, preventing a 1 hit counter attack if that is on your bar. Does it make you die? No, but it certainly makes retaliating against a C&D thief annoying as hell. Mechanics like this need to be fixed.
now, replace 5 with whatever skill you use to deal with melee attackers.
when you take a C&D…
wait…wait…wait…
repulse/block/smash
This is how you effectively deal with a permastealth troll. If you’re getting killed by these people be sad, since the nerf C&D does absolutely pathetic damage if used as the only damage source.
Blocking C&D does not prevent the stealth, and the thief can still blind you with a trait, preventing a 1 hit counter attack if that is on your bar. Does it make you die? No, but it certainly makes retaliating against a C&D thief annoying as hell. Mechanics like this need to be fixed.
Blocking C&D does absolutely prevent stealth.
Spartyr – Norn Thief
[GSCH] Gaiscioch Gaming Community
now, replace 5 with whatever skill you use to deal with melee attackers.
when you take a C&D…
wait…wait…wait…
repulse/block/smash
This is how you effectively deal with a permastealth troll. If you’re getting killed by these people be sad, since the nerf C&D does absolutely pathetic damage if used as the only damage source.
now, replace 5 with whatever skill you use to deal with melee attackers.
when you take a C&D…
wait…wait…wait…
repulse/block/smash
This is how you effectively deal with a permastealth troll. If you’re getting killed by these people be sad, since the nerf C&D does absolutely pathetic damage if used as the only damage source.
You can hit for 6k with a CnD…
If u full glasscannon with 11.5k hp, assasins signet and might on signet use then yea… but in this case u have nothing to do out of stealth, becouse you will get killed in 2 hits. Well u will get killed in 2 hits no matter u stealthed or not.
Blocking C&D does not prevent the stealth, and the thief can still blind you with a trait, preventing a 1 hit counter attack if that is on your bar. Does it make you die? No, but it certainly makes retaliating against a C&D thief annoying as hell. Mechanics like this need to be fixed.
Blocking CnD does prevent the stealth, the blind also does not trigger without the stealth. So really what needs to be fixed is the vast amount of ignorance on the forums.
Does it make you die? No, but it certainly makes retaliating against a C&D thief annoying as hell. Mechanics like this need to be fixed.
Since when it’s forbidden to be annoying?Last i checked GW2 was a roleplaying game,so if the guy chooses the role to can’t kill anyone,but to annoy them,then so be it.I am annoyed by some demigod bunker builds that take 300 spartans to be killed,but i don’t whine,do i?
Ss Ninja- Rank 50 Asura Condition Thief (The Bulgarians [BG])
My Ringtones on Zedge >>>C l i c k <<<
now, replace 5 with whatever skill you use to deal with melee attackers.
when you take a C&D…
wait…wait…wait…
repulse/block/smash
This is how you effectively deal with a permastealth troll. If you’re getting killed by these people be sad, since the nerf C&D does absolutely pathetic damage if used as the only damage source.
You can hit for 6k with a CnD…
If u full glasscannon with 11.5k hp, assasins signet and might on signet use then yea… but in this case u have nothing to do out of stealth, becouse you will get killed in 2 hits. Well u will get killed in 2 hits no matter u stealthed or not.
Basilisk+mug+CnD+backstab+HS
simple combo to kill a player, 1,5 sec.
you can use Shadow refugee,blind powder, etc… to scape.
A thief is OP because , altought is a Glass Cannon he can leave the combat always.
now, replace 5 with whatever skill you use to deal with melee attackers.
when you take a C&D…
wait…wait…wait…
repulse/block/smash
This is how you effectively deal with a permastealth troll. If you’re getting killed by these people be sad, since the nerf C&D does absolutely pathetic damage if used as the only damage source.
You can hit for 6k with a CnD…
If u full glasscannon with 11.5k hp, assasins signet and might on signet use then yea… but in this case u have nothing to do out of stealth, becouse you will get killed in 2 hits. Well u will get killed in 2 hits no matter u stealthed or not.
Basilisk+mug+CnD+backstab+HS
simple combo to kill a player, 1,5 sec.
you can use Shadow refugee,blind powder, etc… to scape.
A thief is OP because , altought is a Glass Cannon he can leave the combat always.
Not when ppl around you is aware that you have killed their mate and you are probablly stomping him. And w8ing for cooldowns to get a kill and have a slight chance to get out alive is not fun at all. If you even manage to get out alive after all that blind weapon swinging around you… you probablly gonna die from conditions if u didnt have hide in shadows ready. GC is highly dependant on cooldowns … I dont play glass cannon, but I have tried it. Asexample i will tell you my encounter with tanky shield warrior. After I landed perfect basilisk CnD mug bs bla bla bla combo I got downed by 9k eviscerate + 2 auto attacks. So yea GC thief is OP. 25/30/0/0/15 is the staple build for GC right ? + full zerker gear. So you cant roam around battlefield spaming CnD on random ppl looking for a kill becouse you will get initiative starved in few CnDs. Even if u take 10 in shadow arts you are still to squishy/have no means to remove conditions to do that. You cant face bunkers becouse your combo wont kill them, but afterwards they will kill you if u dont escape fast enough. You can kill other glass cannons with your perfectly executed combo, but in time those glass cannons will reroll for balanced/bunker build and your killing days will be over.
now, replace 5 with whatever skill you use to deal with melee attackers.
when you take a C&D…
wait…wait…wait…
repulse/block/smash
This is how you effectively deal with a permastealth troll. If you’re getting killed by these people be sad, since the nerf C&D does absolutely pathetic damage if used as the only damage source.
You can hit for 6k with a CnD…
If u full glasscannon with 11.5k hp, assasins signet and might on signet use then yea… but in this case u have nothing to do out of stealth, becouse you will get killed in 2 hits. Well u will get killed in 2 hits no matter u stealthed or not.
Basilisk+mug+CnD+backstab+HS
simple combo to kill a player, 1,5 sec.
you can use Shadow refugee,blind powder, etc… to scape.
A thief is OP because , altought is a Glass Cannon he can leave the combat always.
Not when ppl around you is aware that you have killed their mate and you are probablly stomping him. And w8ing for cooldowns to get a kill and have a slight chance to get out alive is not fun at all. If you even manage to get out alive after all that blind weapon swinging around you… you probablly gonna die from conditions if u didnt have hide in shadows ready. GC is highly dependant on cooldowns …
ofc, you try to kill a player that is not “into” the zerg dude……shadow refugee, use blind powder, and run far from you own refugee, people will attack the refugge area.
btw, you can kill a balanced bunker too, perhaps you need 1 or 2 HS, my main is a ranger, and i never play with thief because is really op, EZ Way.
Once you see what a GC staff AOE rotation of 3-4 skills do on a group of people, you can never go back, lol.
I’ve been on the receiving end of 16k worth of meteorswarm once. Was immobilized and had already used my breaker. I was impressed though, no complaints, just impressed.
The Painted Norn of [WILD]We Intercept Lost Dolyaks
Does it make you die? No, but it certainly makes retaliating against a C&D thief annoying as hell. Mechanics like this need to be fixed.
Since when it’s forbidden to be annoying?Last i checked GW2 was a roleplaying game,so if the guy chooses the role to can’t kill anyone,but to annoy them,then so be it.I am annoyed by some demigod bunker builds that take 300 spartans to be killed,but i don’t whine,do i?
I don’t think griefing builds are healthy for any game, regardless of how they grief.
Blocking C&D does not prevent the stealth, and the thief can still blind you with a trait, preventing a 1 hit counter attack if that is on your bar. Does it make you die? No, but it certainly makes retaliating against a C&D thief annoying as hell. Mechanics like this need to be fixed.
Blocking CnD does prevent the stealth, the blind also does not trigger without the stealth. So really what needs to be fixed is the vast amount of ignorance on the forums.
I’m not sure what the case is then; I had a thief stealth/blind me off of multiple blocked C&Ds in an encounter I had the other day. Unless there are some block skills that are not functioning properly I cannot otherwise explain what was happening. I was using a ranger (he was not actively using C&D on my pet and my pet was often nowhere near the range necessary for him to do so) and repeatedly had him stealth off of what appeared to be C&D, which I thought I knew the animation for. He did not use a stolen item and did not use a utility to stealth; it was the same animation every time and given the range necessary for C&D and the range he stealthed at each time I don’t have another explanation. He did not ever leave P/D to the best of my recollection. Before this encounter I was under the impression that blocking skills that had effects like C&D was supposed to prevent the reactive effects from successful hits, but this honestly had me stumped.
you can use Shadow refugee,blind powder, etc… to scape.
A thief is OP because , altought is a Glass Cannon he can leave the combat always.
Another thread that has nothing to do with Backstab,turned to whine fiesta by some low-geared-WvW-wannabe…
Low geared? i have 5 pjs, all full exotic lvl 80…….and the thief is EZ Mode, ALWAYS, you kill any other class, really fast, this is not a Whine fiesta, is a fact dude, this is not a L2P issue, A thief can land 15-20k damage in 1 or 1,5 secs ( Hi Basilisk Venom ), and if you are in WvW, you victim will never know who kill him ( hi culling), ofc in SPvP thief is only Very Good, but in WvW is OP.
Again and again,culling is not a thief problem,the higher cap of crit damage in WvW is not a thief problem.If Thief benefits more than other classes i suggest you start to ask for the right fixes.
Ss Ninja- Rank 50 Asura Condition Thief (The Bulgarians [BG])
My Ringtones on Zedge >>>C l i c k <<<
Again and again,culling is not a thief problem,the higher cap of crit damage in WvW is not a thief problem.If Thief benefits more than other classes i suggest you start to ask for the right fixes.
All people ask about culling to Anet, brw, i have more crit damage on ranger than on Thief, but i hit with ranger for 3-3.5k with longbow (902 base attack at 1200mt), and for 10k with rogue xD, the problem of culling is that you have only 2 classes with easy access to stealth, mesmers and thieves, im sure that is only coincidence the high amount of mesmers and thieves in W3
I don’t think griefing builds are healthy for any game, regardless of how they grief.
Griefing?
How is it griefing when people absolutely have the choice to do something other then trying to whack the thief.
Builds that pretty much accomplish nothing but spamming things like stealth. If your build does not contribute damage, support (for anybody but yourself) or any form of control, then what are you doing but griefing? I would also consider excessive tankiness to be a form of griefing even though holding a point wins your team games. I was under the impression upon buying this game that damage avoidance would do more good to you than damage absorption.
A thief is OP because , altought is a Glass Cannon he can leave the combat always.
Unless he gets hit a couple times, then he’s a dead thief.
the thief burst should kill a player in 1-2 secs, if he decide to continue fighting and die, is his own problem, you have plenty of utilities/skills to leave combat when you want.
ofc, you can kill a burst glass cannon with another glass cannon(thief vs thief).
. Just wanted to share my opness with you all, cya.
