Guild Wars 2

I mean I know, you can land it. And some would even argue you can land it reliably – which I have yet to see in sPvP when fighting against other thieves. But whatever I’ll give you the benefit of doubt.

But it makes no sense to go through all the hassle when a much more viable alternative is available.

The casting animation is so slow, a turtle can literally walk away from under you while you’re doing it. Not taking into account blind/block/evade…

I propose making it insta-cast or at most 1/4th a second.

Any thief relying on CnD needs a viable damage mitigation, because they won’t be stealthing as much, even with the shortened cast time. Hence Acrobatics also needs some serious buff to include a bit of healing. What little there’s is laughable. There is also no condition mitigation in the current condition heavy meta to even contemplate taking that line instead of shadow arts – none. Unless you want to troll your own team. Something to the effect of (remove 1 condition/per dodge may be in order).

there’s a reason D/D isn’t really used anymore except in PvE lol. I can’t see how hard it would be dodge that.

LS suffers from the same problem too.

already see 1 must for the " remove 1 condi on dodge " idea.

both the remove a condi on stealth ( shadow arts tree) AND the remove condi on dodge ( acrobatic tree ), would have to be grandmaster traits . else the combo of the 2 would make thiefs alittle to strong again.

ow and a condition DD-dodger build is still alot of fun in Spvp and viable, its even fun in soloQue Tpvp:D ( BUT would not recommend it for team Queue , unless you got a team build around it ofc. )

Am not sure I understand this. You can land CnD reliable via our teleports (obviously if you won’t slot the utilities or use steal much or at all, then you can’t blame CnD mechanic), it’s your own job to monitor if you are blinded or will get blinded in vicinity of your target, if your target is blocking etc.

Is like if I’d ask to get stability when I pop black powder or shadow refuge because I “might” get knocked / pulled out of it.

For condi removal you have lysa runes, basilik venom to activate it, IS can be spammed even with no target in order to cleanse something fast (sword is already one of most used MH weapons in pvp), you also have a signet and shadowstep to cleanse conditions. Sorry no, thieves don’t have a wipe all conditions and / or become immune as a skill / trait / weapon set, and they don’t need one either.

Anelyn.4593:

Am not sure I understand this. You can land CnD reliable via our teleports (obviously if you won’t slot the utilities or use steal much or at all, then you can’t blame CnD mechanic), it’s your own job to monitor if you are blinded or will get blinded in vicinity of your target, if your target is blocking etc.

Is like if I’d ask to get stability when I pop black powder or shadow refuge because I “might” get knocked / pulled out of it.

For condi removal you have lysa runes, basilik venom to activate it, IS can be spammed even with no target in order to cleanse something fast (sword is already one of most used MH weapons in pvp), you also have a signet and shadowstep to cleanse conditions. Sorry no, thieves don’t have a wipe all conditions and / or become immune as a skill / trait / weapon set, and they don’t need one either.

axualy they need a condi clear for non stealth build that dont use sword mainhand.

atm 2 kind of builds
thief = stealth “abusing” build ( cause of condi clear on stealth is there )
or
Sword/X builds ( cause condi clear on number2 ( initiatief spending) )

else give me a thief build without stealth spam or sword thats viable in pvp atm….

gl finding 1

Void.4239:

else give me a thief build without stealth spam or sword thats viable in pvp atm….

gl finding 1

Pistol/pistol most viable out there… What do i win?

Rissou.7213:

Void.4239:

else give me a thief build without stealth spam or sword thats viable in pvp atm….

gl finding 1

Pistol/pistol most viable out there… What do i win?

“Viable”

True the thief really needs some kind of condi removal outside the stealth tree. I mean it’s kind of lame to have to focus on a runeset that forces you to use Basilisk just for having a decent condition removal, cause really that aren’t many other. I mean the signet is kinda lame and shadowstep doesn’t really work that well, they should at least make the condi removal on the step away and not the return.

Cause actually you usually use ss to get away, but then if you have conditions that are gonna kill you you have to step back in the middle of the enemies, which is pretty much gonna kill you anyway, and being on a high cd it wouldn’t hurt to make it cleanse on the first active

I am running a P/D thief at the moment, and very successfully. the set-up is 20/0/0/20/30. In acrobatics I use pain response to cleanse damaging conditions and in addition I use Shadow step to cleanse 3 conditions. Other than that I avoid condition damage as I would avoid direct damage: By dodging out of the way.

I would agree with Delta Blues that having condition cleanse on the shadow step away, rather than shadow step back would be very helpful.

Frankly, I have a hard time against very strong condition builds like some necromancers.

Making it insta cast would not work. At all. It doesn’t need anything and it can be landed very reliably with a steal mid cast. With the amount of damage CnD can do being so ridiculous, changing anything else would push it far over the top.

Note that the picture below is NOT on an upleveled player.

I just wanted to add in that D/P (what I presume the “more viable” alternative ) also needs more traiting to be worth while Ini wise Vs. X/D and thus limits your build options. In addition to that you give up the large damage from C&D. I still run and prefer D/D personally. I enjoy the higher risk/reward.

Aberrant.6749:

I just wanted to add in that D/P (what I presume the “more viable” alternative ) also needs more traiting to be worth while Ini wise Vs. X/D and thus limits your build options. In addition to that you give up the large damage from C&D. I still run and prefer D/D personally. I enjoy the higher risk/reward.

You’re joking, right?

“Large damage” – CnD hits as hard as an over 50% HS – universally considered the absolute worst time to use HS for damage. It hits for crap, how did you miss that?

Nobody is running a stealth heavy spec without Infusion of shadow, so your “traiting” argument is entirely pointless.

D/P brings to the table a 900 range gap closer that does respectable damage regardless of a targets health AND blinds (meaning it has utility beyond damage and gap closing), a ranged daze, and an AoE blind field. In comparison, D/D offers a condition damage based AoE with a .25s evade (read: kittening worthless), a ranged snare that misses the target if they move for .25 seconds during the travel time, and CnD.

You are enjoying higher risk and vastly lower reward.

Kman.7358:

Making it insta cast would not work. At all. It doesn’t need anything and it can be landed very reliably with a steal mid cast. With the amount of damage CnD can do being so ridiculous, changing anything else would push it far over the top.

Note that the picture below is NOT on an upleveled player.

The title says PvP – what bearing does WvW have on PvP?

evilapprentice.6379:

You’re joking, right?

“Large damage” – CnD hits as hard as an over 50% HS – universally considered the absolute worst time to use HS for damage. It hits for crap, how did you miss that?

Nobody is running a stealth heavy spec without Infusion of shadow, so your “traiting” argument is entirely pointless.

D/P brings to the table a 900 range gap closer that does respectable damage regardless of a targets health AND blinds (meaning it has utility beyond damage and gap closing), a ranged daze, and an AoE blind field. In comparison, D/D offers a condition damage based AoE with a .25s evade (read: kittening worthless), a ranged snare that misses the target if they move for .25 seconds during the travel time, and CnD.

You are enjoying higher risk and vastly lower reward.

I like how the person above me posts a 10k C&D yet you make it sound like it hits like feathers. Lol.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Heartseeker
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cloak_and_Dagger

^ Read these and learn what the skills do before posting. At UNDER 50% HS hits for the same as C&D, NOT above.

As far as Ini, for D/P most take Quick Recovery + Infil signet to keep up with the higher ini cost of the set. With just Infusion of Shadow you’ll be losing ini very quickly. So… that’s the far heavier investment which limits builds.

Thanks for what I can only assume was a fail troll post full of misinformation.

evilapprentice.6379:

Kman.7358:

Making it insta cast would not work. At all. It doesn’t need anything and it can be landed very reliably with a steal mid cast. With the amount of damage CnD can do being so ridiculous, changing anything else would push it far over the top.

Note that the picture below is NOT on an upleveled player.

The title says PvP – what bearing does WvW have on PvP?

Because ANet doesn’t split skills. Ever. If they make a change for one, it’ll be for both.

Kman.7358:

evilapprentice.6379:

Kman.7358:

Making it insta cast would not work. At all. It doesn’t need anything and it can be landed very reliably with a steal mid cast. With the amount of damage CnD can do being so ridiculous, changing anything else would push it far over the top.

Note that the picture below is NOT on an upleveled player.

The title says PvP – what bearing does WvW have on PvP?

Because ANet doesn’t split skills. Ever. If they make a change for one, it’ll be for both.

Wut? ANet already stated that sPvP balance will be split from WvW/PvE balance. They also had no problem having PvP variants of skills in GW1 so I don’t see why they can’t/won’t do the same here.

Calsifer.6079:

Kman.7358:

evilapprentice.6379:

Kman.7358:

Making it insta cast would not work. At all. It doesn’t need anything and it can be landed very reliably with a steal mid cast. With the amount of damage CnD can do being so ridiculous, changing anything else would push it far over the top.

Note that the picture below is NOT on an upleveled player.

The title says PvP – what bearing does WvW have on PvP?

Because ANet doesn’t split skills. Ever. If they make a change for one, it’ll be for both.

Wut? ANet already stated that sPvP balance will be split from WvW/PvE balance. They also had no problem having PvP variants of skills in GW1 so I don’t see why they can’t/won’t do the same here.

They did state that, yes. They also don’t do it, or at least not for the skills that should actually be split.

I don’t see why they aren’t, as most of their patches include balance changes, but they’re not splitting things.

@Aberrant and Kman –
CnD is split between PvP and WvW/PvE.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQJAoIAA

Just click the icon that switches between PvP and WvW and see the difference.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-November-15-2012/first#post744278

Those are the patch notes, check under Thief, and you’ll see this
“Cloak and Dagger: This skill’s damage has been reduced by 33% in PvP only.”

Aberrant, you should probably be more sure of your information before you insist others know what they’re talking about in such a dismissive manner.

In addition, regardless whether or not there is a Split between PvP and WvW for CnD (there is, but we can ignore that for a moment), OP’s post was about PvP – you can obtain much, much higher power, crit, and crit% numbers in WvW than in PvP, hence why your point is still incorrect.

Seeing as neither of you have any idea how a thief works, you should probably get a bit more experience with the class if you want others to take your opinions of what works and what doesn’t work seriously.

Kman.7358:

Making it insta cast would not work. At all. It doesn’t need anything and it can be landed very reliably with a steal mid cast. With the amount of damage CnD can do being so ridiculous, changing anything else would push it far over the top.

Note that the picture below is NOT on an upleveled player.

Aberrant.6749:

evilapprentice.6379:

You’re joking, right?

“Large damage” – CnD hits as hard as an over 50% HS – universally considered the absolute worst time to use HS for damage. It hits for crap, how did you miss that?

Nobody is running a stealth heavy spec without Infusion of shadow, so your “traiting” argument is entirely pointless.

D/P brings to the table a 900 range gap closer that does respectable damage regardless of a targets health AND blinds (meaning it has utility beyond damage and gap closing), a ranged daze, and an AoE blind field. In comparison, D/D offers a condition damage based AoE with a .25s evade (read: kittening worthless), a ranged snare that misses the target if they move for .25 seconds during the travel time, and CnD.

You are enjoying higher risk and vastly lower reward.

I like how the person above me posts a 10k C&D yet you make it sound like it hits like feathers. Lol.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Heartseeker
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cloak_and_Dagger

^ Read these and learn what the skills do before posting. At UNDER 50% HS hits for the same as C&D, NOT above.

As far as Ini, for D/P most take Quick Recovery + Infil signet to keep up with the higher ini cost of the set. With just Infusion of Shadow you’ll be losing ini very quickly. So… that’s the far heavier investment which limits builds.

Thanks for what I can only assume was a fail troll post full of misinformation.

Quoted straight from the patch notes, November 15, 2012:

• Cloak and Dagger: This skill’s damage has been reduced by 33% in PvP only.

What you two sound like you’re saying is you think CnD hits hard based on the evidence that Kman provided. I hate to say this about WvW, because it’s a great game type with a lot to offer, but with food buffs, 25 stacks of bloodlust, what is likely full berserker armor, and with the quote above, the evidence from the picture that cloak and dagger hits hard is heavily skewed at best. Citing evidence in WvW with the most buffs to power and crit damage you can get does not make CnD hit hard. The amount of damage that you trade off for superior stealth access with D/P is negligible in PvP. The fact of the matter here is that CnD is too much of a risk for the poor damage that you get in exchange. Why else is D/D all but gone in PvP, and replaced by alternative like S/D and D/P?

This is leaving out other facts like the #3 and 4 skills being very underwhelming, lack of utility, etc. The whole weaponset needs a rework or a buff.

Rahar.9872:

Kman.7358:

Making it insta cast would not work. At all. It doesn’t need anything and it can be landed very reliably with a steal mid cast. With the amount of damage CnD can do being so ridiculous, changing anything else would push it far over the top.

Note that the picture below is NOT on an upleveled player.

Aberrant.6749:

evilapprentice.6379:

You’re joking, right?

“Large damage” – CnD hits as hard as an over 50% HS – universally considered the absolute worst time to use HS for damage. It hits for crap, how did you miss that?

Nobody is running a stealth heavy spec without Infusion of shadow, so your “traiting” argument is entirely pointless.

D/P brings to the table a 900 range gap closer that does respectable damage regardless of a targets health AND blinds (meaning it has utility beyond damage and gap closing), a ranged daze, and an AoE blind field. In comparison, D/D offers a condition damage based AoE with a .25s evade (read: kittening worthless), a ranged snare that misses the target if they move for .25 seconds during the travel time, and CnD.

You are enjoying higher risk and vastly lower reward.

I like how the person above me posts a 10k C&D yet you make it sound like it hits like feathers. Lol.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Heartseeker
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cloak_and_Dagger

^ Read these and learn what the skills do before posting. At UNDER 50% HS hits for the same as C&D, NOT above.

As far as Ini, for D/P most take Quick Recovery + Infil signet to keep up with the higher ini cost of the set. With just Infusion of Shadow you’ll be losing ini very quickly. So… that’s the far heavier investment which limits builds.

Thanks for what I can only assume was a fail troll post full of misinformation.

Quoted straight from the patch notes, November 15, 2012:

• Cloak and Dagger: This skill’s damage has been reduced by 33% in PvP only.

What you two sound like you’re saying is you think CnD hits hard based on the evidence that Kman provided. I hate to say this about WvW, because it’s a great game type with a lot to offer, but with food buffs, 25 stacks of bloodlust, what is likely full berserker armor, and with the quote above, the evidence from the picture that cloak and dagger hits hard is heavily skewed at best. Citing evidence in WvW with the most buffs to power and crit damage you can get does not make CnD hit hard. The amount of damage that you trade off for superior stealth access with D/P is negligible in PvP. The fact of the matter here is that CnD is too much of a risk for the poor damage that you get in exchange. Why else is D/D all but gone in PvP, and replaced by alternative like S/D and D/P?

This is leaving out other facts like the #3 and 4 skills being very underwhelming, lack of utility, etc. The whole weaponset needs a rework or a buff.

Lol, someone took screencap of CnD in WWW. That thing is imbalanced as heck. Even auto-attacking can hit in the upper thousands. What’s that supposed to proof?

To re-iterate the poster above, 3, 4 & 5 in D/D are a waste of initiative. You’d be a fool to use them in light of the alternative.