Guild Wars 2

Edit: how would you change CnD more reliable or d/d build rather more viable in tpvp?

CnD is pretty unreliable and pretty costy hence why d/d is barely ever used in pvp.

Suggestion: if CnD fails,
- return half of the costs
or
- return all costs but put CnD on short CD

basically kind of like warrior spells work.

Maybe also reduce CnD dmg but if the attack hits it provides a buff (for example aegis or stability or small heal or 1 condi removed etc.) for 1 sec.

Thoughts?

Even though I think thieves are in general underpowered given the difficulty involved in playing them, and I’m not very good at them myself, it seems to me that CnD is sufficiently powerful in the right hands that buffing it would be unwarranted.

Qaelyn.7612:

Even though I think thieves are in general underpowered given the difficulty involved in playing them, and I’m not very good at them myself, it seems to me that CnD is sufficiently powerful in the right hands that buffing it would be unwarranted.

Well the problem with CnD, while it does do some dmg and provides stealth it is highly unreliable. If you miss it, you end up with 6 ini less, which is a lot actually. CnD also doesn’t garantee backstab (which is main dmg, if you actually run that build). Why CnD unreliable? Blinds, fears, stuns, immobs, chills, blocks, dodges, pet body blocking, very predictable etc.

I didn’t see a single d/d thief since i started to play this game.

anet like to punish for mistakes that why many thieves who do sticks around even with all the nerfs around getting better and better and still getting all the QQ even though all the thief community thinks its more than enough nerfs around

many improvement need to be done but i think anet just made us stronger play class so if you want to be a thief you must learn and practice hard leading that they cant gives us any skill buff in the near future

NO !!! just reduce the cost….

Oh I see the argument, but it seems to me that it applies to a lot of things. I mean, you can also blow a long-cooldown elite on a block or CC effect.

If you watch Yishis’s narrated videos, he watches for and compensates for these things to ensure his CnD is used to good effect. It’s an inherent part of the player skill involved in this type of build. I wish I could do it myself, but I can’t, and I see it as something to work towards.

With (future) permastealth nerf and current CCs/aoe spam could help a faster animation. Most of times c&d fails not becouse of our bad timing but becouse this is a silly pinball game.
Initiative cost is good anyway, it doesn’t need buffs.

Qaelyn.7612:

Oh I see the argument, but it seems to me that it applies to a lot of things. I mean, you can also blow a long-cooldown elite on a block or CC effect.

If you watch Yishis’s narrated videos, he watches for and compensates for these things to ensure his CnD is used to good effect. It’s an inherent part of the player skill involved in this type of build. I wish I could do it myself, but I can’t, and I see it as something to work towards.

Yishi is a good player but in most of his videos his opponents.. are wvw noobs. It wouldn’t work so well in tpvp.

I agree that class shouldn’t get dumbed down more, i like the challenge thieves bring however it would be nice to see d/d in pvp however the way CnD is atm it won’t happen for the reasons i stated before.

CnD is fine, but it can be hard to pull off successful ones without using Inf Sig or Steal, like 50% chance to fail if you run towards someone in open combat, though in outnumbered situations people aren’t always mentally prepared that you might hit them with a CnD while you are fighting someone else. However, you can use sheath weapon binding to fake out CnD and not lose any initiative if someone dodges, blinds you, triggers aegis, requires a lot of practice though and good reflexes.

So, my conclusion is, the skill is fine. Rewarding if you hit it, punishing if you miss it, and if you are skilled you are less likely to miss it and get punished.

Since I think Daggers have crap damage outside auto attack and backstab, I think CnD should perform more dmg, but not much more.

D/D is not used much in tPvP because it’s mainly a stealth build which is bad in conquest. You want to be able to contest/capture a point which you cant do if you’re stealthed. This is why the majority of thieves in tPvP spend no points in Shadow Arts. You won’t be helping your team if all you do is, stealth —> lose capture point --> backstab.

VomitSpit.6843:

D/D is not used much in tPvP because it’s mainly a stealth build which is bad in conquest. You want to be able to contest/capture a point which you cant do if you’re stealthed. This is why the majority of thieves in tPvP spend no points in Shadow Arts. You won’t be helping your team if all you do is, stealth —> lose/not contest capture point --> backstab.

While D/D was popular, the thief would typically play 25/30/0/0/15 D/D + SB.
The main task was not to capture or contest points, the main task was to roam and jump into a fight and evening it out by bursting down strategic targets quickly using several skill combinations and execute players using heartseeker. And when it was too dangerous to engage in melee use SB.

This was considered OP, so CnD got nerfed by 33% in pvp, heartseeker dmg was reduced by 20% and mug was made unable to critically hit, and SB lost heatseeking.

Ghostwolf.9863:

…use sheath weapon binding to fake out CnD…

Can someone please explain this? Thanks.

Ghostwolf.9863:

VomitSpit.6843:

D/D is not used much in tPvP because it’s mainly a stealth build which is bad in conquest. You want to be able to contest/capture a point which you cant do if you’re stealthed. This is why the majority of thieves in tPvP spend no points in Shadow Arts. You won’t be helping your team if all you do is, stealth —> lose/not contest capture point --> backstab.

While D/D was popular, the thief would typically play 25/30/0/0/15 D/D + SB.
The main task was not to capture or contest points, the main task was to roam and jump into a fight and evening it out by bursting down strategic targets quickly using several skill combinations and execute players using heartseeker. And when it was too dangerous to engage in melee use SB.

This was considered OP, so CnD got nerfed by 33% in pvp, heartseeker dmg was reduced by 20% and mug was made unable to critically hit, and SB lost heatseeking.

Keep in mind that those nerfs are a year old and if your main task is to only kill then you will be losing out on alot of team points. S/D allowed thieves to contest points with the amount of evades which has made thieves more versatile. Same with D/P and its blinds/backstabs. D/D just doesn’t really have much to offer except backstabs.

Qaelyn.7612:

Ghostwolf.9863:

…use sheath weapon binding to fake out CnD…

Can someone please explain this? Thanks.

I believe he means, that since CnD has a 0.5 second activation time, you can either lure people into blowing a cool down or prevent loosing initiative if blinded.

If you sheath weapons (stow/draw weapons command), before the activation time on CnD has finished, the attack will not use up any initiative as the sheath works as a cancel attack command.

VomitSpit.6843:

Keep in mind that those nerfs are a year old which are irrelevant today. S/D allowed thieves to contest points with the amount of evades which has made thieves more versatile. Same with D/P and its blinds/backstabs. D/D just doesn’t really have much to offer except backstabs.

Ghostwolf.9863:

While D/D was popular..

The last nail in its coffin was the change to mug and the +1 sec reveal, which was in April. And that’s when D/P was discovered to be outperforming D/D on a wider area. When people were searching for alternative solutions to the issues the nerfs brought, D/P eventually took its place. S/D was crappy in sPvP back when D/D was great, until the split of FS was introduced by the devs.

Qaelyn.7612:

Can someone please explain this? Thanks.

Basically, when you sheath your weapons you interrupt your current actions, doesn’t work for all abilities, many requires you to swap weapons or dodge to cancel them.
I find it most useful for Daggerstorm and CnD. When you cancel Daggerstorm you maintain stability without being in the pesky animation and without having to waste your dodge.

Cynz.9437:

Edit: how would you change CnD more reliable or d/d build rather more viable in tpvp?

CnD is pretty unreliable and pretty costy hence why d/d is barely ever used in pvp.

Suggestion: if CnD fails,
- return half of the costs
or
- return all costs but put CnD on short CD

basically kind of like warrior spells work.

Maybe also reduce CnD dmg but if the attack hits it provides a buff (for example aegis or stability or small heal or 1 condi removed etc.) for 1 sec.

Thoughts?

CnD is fine. The problems you mentioned are not valid. A good thief can land CnD just fine. The problem with D/D isn’t #1,2, &5 – the problem is #3 and some what #4.

Compare it D/P. You can use all skills on that set as it seems more complete with its damage, stealth, interupt, gap closer.

No a different note, I should’ve rolled an Asuran thief. That CnD graphic on the Asura is hard to tell.

Reesha.7901:

Qaelyn.7612:

Ghostwolf.9863:

…use sheath weapon binding to fake out CnD…

Can someone please explain this? Thanks.

I believe he means, that since CnD has a 0.5 second activation time, you can either lure people into blowing a cool down or prevent loosing initiative if blinded.

If you sheath weapons (stow/draw weapons command), before the activation time on CnD has finished, the attack will not use up any initiative as the sheath works as a cancel attack command.

Pressing esc also works.

The vast majority (all?) cnd dodges are either predicted or random. The animation is far too hard to see… You will either
A. get just as much success waiting for them to dodge instead of trying to ‘fake’ them out or
B. miss anyway because you don’t have signet of shadows and just get kited in the time it takes to do a bluff cnd

Ironically mobility is the biggest thing holding thief back. It is VERY hard to land attacks without +runspeed or teleports because they are all such short range. A good player will just spam autos to remove blinds/aegis anyway.

I mainly run d/d on thief, and its main strength is that it comes out of nowhere, compared to black powder that is very telegraphed. However, I agree with OP in that it requires some guarantee that you will hit; running sleight of hand becomes a necessity, unless you plan on hitting pets and illusions with +2 init from shadow arts and nerfing your utility.

IMO dagger 4 needs another rework. It should do no damage so it does not break stealth, and you should be able to throw it without looking at your target (throw behind), then it’s init cost should be very low, maybe 2, with a similarly reduced cripple duration, so that it can be used offensively as well as defensively

CnD is one of the best skills on a thief right now. I sincerely hope they don’t change this ability.

The ability gives a fast, instant stealth (faster than dropping a blind field and leaping through), but you have to think before you use it.

People who don’t pay attention to enemies with aegis, when they are blinded, or when they are simply not facing their enemy will miss, but that’s from the player being unreliable, not the skill.

Sifu.6527:

No a different note, I should’ve rolled an Asuran thief. That CnD graphic on the Asura is hard to tell.

If you listen properly, asuran thief will yell out when he CnD.

Dahkeus.8243:

People who don’t pay attention to enemies with aegis, when they are blinded, or when they are simply not facing their enemy will miss, but that’s from the player being unreliable, not the skill.

This guy speaks the truth. I can CnD all day long inside a blob. Thief is all about awareness to me, if you lack that then play a warrior.

Well, seems posters here think CnD is fine, but apprently 3 and 4 and are supposely reason why we don’t see d/d in tpvp.

How would you guys change 3 and 4 then?

D/D severely underpreforms D/P. The only thing dagger offhand had over pistol offhand was the damage, but that got nerfed so no one in their right mind uses it on anyone other than dumb people. It needs some type of a buff, but I don’t know how they would be able to do it.

Cynz.9437:

Well, seems posters here think CnD is fine, but apprently 3 and 4 and are supposely reason why we don’t see d/d in tpvp.

How would you guys change 3 and 4 then?

I already posted about 4, and I think they will never change 3 because it single handedly supports the newbie bleed build. That said, 3 on d/d should definitely do some thing more useful, it is currently the most pathetic ‘evade’ move thief has.

What thief desperately needs is a counter to weakness. P/d 3 gets you out of melee, d/p 3 gets you into melee, d/d should help you stay in melee by countering the things that screw you the hardest.

D/d 3 could simply move you behind your target, slightly countering some positional attacks while giving some breathing room, and remove (or donate) blind/weakness. I guess the pve crowd wouldn’t like this though.

Cynz.9437:

Well, seems posters here think CnD is fine, but apprently 3 and 4 and are supposely reason why we don’t see d/d in tpvp.

How would you guys change 3 and 4 then?

The reason you see a pistol offhand more often a dagger offhand in sPvP is for a couple reasons:

- Blind fields give solid group utility that help in team fights
– You don’t need a ranged snare as much in the close quarter combat of sPvP
– Blind fields are move effective in close quarter combat

A dagger offhand, however, is often better for WvW because:

- CnD will stealth you faster than leaping through a blind field, which is more effective when dancing through zergs
– CnD is more initiative efficient for stealthing frequently
– You can get higher burst damage by waiting for stealth to end, then hitting CnD → backstab compared to heartseeker → backstab against most targets

And of course, when it comes to PvE, a dagger offhand is much, much, much better than a pistol offhand when using a dagger main-hand simply because of the initiative efficiency and higher overall dps. D/P is awesome in PvP, but it’s probably one of the worst weapon combos for PvE dungeons.

Cynz.9437:

Edit: how would you change CnD more reliable or d/d build rather more viable in tpvp?

CnD is pretty unreliable and pretty costy hence why d/d is barely ever used in pvp.

Suggestion: if CnD fails,
- return half of the costs
or
- return all costs but put CnD on short CD

basically kind of like warrior spells work.

Maybe also reduce CnD dmg but if the attack hits it provides a buff (for example aegis or stability or small heal or 1 condi removed etc.) for 1 sec.

Thoughts?

> put CnD on short CD
>Thoughts?
Yeah, nice idea. Initiative+cooldowns.

Although, reduced ini cost from 6 to 5 would be nice.

Short dash to target (say 300 range or so).

Also, Stealth on activation, not successful strike. If you whiff and fail, you should at least still get the Stealth.

Actually, I take that back.

This game isn’t based on risk/reward or counterplay. My new suggestion for CnD is even if you miss you still gain stealth.

Compare my suggestion to Mesmers. When a Mesmer summon a phantasm, even if the target has aegis, block, or dodge, the phantasm stills summons. Seems fair when I put it that way right?